## Planning on writing a rational Bleach fic, any tips from more experienced writers?

* Author: u/MadScientist14159  *WIP: Sodium Hypochlorite (Rational Bleach) Eventually. Maybe.**
* URL: https://www.reddit.com/r/rational/comments/2n16zz/planning_on_writing_a_rational_bleach_fic_any/
* Score: 9

* Created: 2014-11-21T23:16:07

### Post:

EDIT: Okay, got internally consistent rules that aren't just "higher power levels autostomps unless the other guy suddenly remembers that he wants to win", got most of the characters sorted out, got the beginnings of a decent plotline starting to form. So far, so good.

### Comments:

> **u/alexanderwales** [+8]  *Time flies like an arrow* (an hour later)
> 
> In terms of just general writing, or ... ?
> 
> * Show, don't tell. Telling us that someone is evil has maybe a quarter of the impact of showing them do some evil thing. The same goes for most character attributes.
> * Plan things out ahead of time. If possible, each chapter should be like a little story nested within the larger story.
> * Get a beta reader. Tell them to let you know where they're bored or confused, since those are the two easiest traps to fall into.
> * Revise early and often. Sometimes, even with planning, it's possible to miss some obvious better alternatives for your story. Revision also gets rid of typos, which no one likes to see. The best things I've ever written were rewrites of far inferior first drafts.
> * Make a schedule and stick to it. The most likely outcome of any writing project is abandonment, which is less likely if you have a progress timeline and benchmarks to hit.
> * Assume that no one wants to read what you've written. Even if they say they do, they don't. If they're reading your story by some miracle, assume that they're going to stop at any moment - they'll shut the book or close the tab and go do something else. It's your job to hook them in and keep them reading despite these facts.
> 
> Also, [check out these posts](http://yudkowsky.tumblr.com/writing/) by Eliezer Yudkowsky about how to write "rational".

>> **u/ianstlawrence** [+4]  (an hour later)
>> 
>> I would add to this saying that if a character is considered to be as simple as the label, "Evil" you are doing something wrong in creating a rational fic.

>> **u/alexanderwales** [+1]  *Time flies like an arrow* (14 hours later)
>> 
>> As for writing rational in general (since that appears to be what you want):
>> 
>> * Have your characters think at least one level deep. Have your enemies think about what your heroes will do, and your heroes think about what your enemies will do. If anyone is surprised by anyone else doing the *obvious* thing, you're in trouble.
>> * Sometimes the obvious solution is the correct one. In fact, most of the time the obvious solution is the correct one. Don't have people get fancy for no reason.
>> * Do your research. This is actually just good writing advice, but doubly important when you want characters who know what the hell they're talking about.
>> * Borrow the cognitive labor of others. There are a whole lot of difficult problems with brilliant solutions out there, and if you use one of them you can save yourself a lot of time and effort. A problem difficult enough to stump a few hundred scientists/engineers is probably better than what you could come up with on your own.
>> * Make sure that you understand things before you try to explain them. I'm never going to have a story with quantum mechanics in it, because I don't understand it well enough.
>> * If you're writing fan fiction, be really familiar with the source material. If there's a wiki, refer to it often. This is a subset of doing the research, but I'm listing it here because it's really, really important.

> **u/ianstlawrence** [+4]  (an hour later)
> 
> I think one of the points of Rational Fics isn't just to write a smart story, but to write a story in which the protagonist explains and illuminates his or her thinking so that people can learn from it. Which means that a lot of your story should revolve around creating interesting problems and then interesting solutions that the reader could, if thinking logically and not making assumptions, solve on their own without the main character. 
> 
> This means that you want to give your readers a very thorough explanation of the limits and powers of people. And when you introduce new abilities or powers they shouldn't be used to solve a problem that was introduced earlier, instead it might be a reward for figuring out a problem. 
> 
> I like to think about it kinda like a tutorial in a game. In the beginning you get access to a few simple abilities, and then you have to solve a problem with those abilities. The game (or story) fails if the problems you are solving require additional abilities that the game/story didn't provide previously. 
> 
> It also fails if later problems can be solved easily through older abilities rather than requiring the new abilities granted, unless that was the whole point. 
> 
> Remember the greatest strength your character has in their thinking and ability to reason. The moment that they NEED the big power up that destroys mountains, you might want to revise and think about how they could solve the problem with the very basics. 
> 
> Super Saiyan IV should not exist in your universe. 
> 
> Here's another thing: if you have characters, and Bleach has this in fucking spades, who are thousands or even hundreds of years old, they are going to fucking rock at their jobs, probably. Even if they aren't rational!characters, they have had a lot of time to get really good at whatever their jobs entail. Now, if you want some of them to lack motivation, so they suck, or to have a really flawed perspective, so they suck, you can do that, but you also need to convince me that the reason they have these flaws make sense.
> 
> Byakuya can't be really fucking bad at protecting his little sister and not going through loop holes and just fucking everything the fuck up just because he is honorable. You can't just say that. You have to prove it to me, you have to show that honor > sister. And it has to be somewhat believable. It can be flawed, but the only way that a Rational!Fic works is if the world is consistent, because inconsistent worlds slay rational characters. You can't logically think through problems if the way the world and people in that world work is based off of plot armor or feeling strongly enough just makes you strong to the 10^10000000. 
> 
> Bleach is not the easiest place to start for a rational fic, but if you pull it off it will be awesome. Awesome as fuck.
> 
> GOOD LUCK

>> **u/TimeLoopedPowerGamer** [+6]  *Utopian Smut Peddler* (6 hours later)
>> 
>> > I think one of the points of Rational Fics isn't just to write a smart story, but to write a story in which the protagonist explains and illuminates his or her thinking so that people can learn from it. Which means that a lot of your story should revolve around creating interesting problems and then interesting solutions that the reader could, if thinking logically and not making assumptions, solve on their own without the main character.
>> 
>> This is a little extreme for my taste.
>> 
>> Perhaps don't focus on the problems to be overcome by the rational protagonist. This often results in really easy and obvious to the reader solutions being the topic of discussion for four chapters to more clearly illustrate the problem and how rational everything is. Sort of boring. It doesn't happen every time, but it is a trope of the rational fanfic genre.
>> 
>> Instead, maybe make it a hero's journey of rationality. Show someone rejecting rationality, them accepting it, then learning about it, then using rationality to solve their problems in the climax of the story. Show them learning through trial and error or others' clues and examples how to be more rational in a dangerous situation.
>> 
>> >Remember the greatest strength your character has in their thinking and ability to reason. The moment that they NEED the big power up that destroys mountains, you might want to revise and think about how they could solve the problem with the very basics.
>> 
>> I'm also not sure I entirely agree with this, as it has a dangerous failure state as well. Often, a protagonist's greatest strength is logically their *great strength*, yet they aren't allowed to use it because it isn't that sort of story. Let them swing that sword around sometimes.
>> 
>> It is another negative trope of rational fiction that the protagonist can be dropped naked into the Amazon rainforest and come out a week later with a jaguar-skin coat and a tribe of quirky primitives following their irresistible logic as they proceed to conquer all of Brazil. It is really easy to overdo speed-chess rationality when an author controls and can see all the cards.
>> 
>> Especially in a magical story world, sometimes a given situation is a Gordian Knot. It can be refreshing to have some problems solved in an action manga through the direct and sudden application of overwhelming violence.
>> 
>> Without that, it isn't really Bleach.
>> 
>> Some of those canon powerups in Bleach are very, very sudden. If that is foreshadowed and explained, I see absolutely nothing wrong with it as a dramatic moment or an approach to solving a problem.
>> 
>> In a world where being strong in literal spiritual combat relies *greatly* on *believing* you are strong, maybe bull-headed approaches have merit -- bracketed by periods of stress and what-the-fuck-was-I-doing rational analysis, of course. It just seems to me that none of the calm, cold, reasonable rational tropes work when your attitude affects your ability to fight off invisible monsters the size of buildings.
>> 
>> Hell, I'd read a Bleach story predicated entirely around someone rational trying to figure out ways to psych themselves up for fights they logically *know* they should lose. Something like a cross between MoR, Bleach, and the movie Crank. I'd read the fuck out of that.
>> 
>> In any case, in the Bleach world, planning to gain and defend against sudden power-ups *is* rational. Sometimes, swallowing an energy field larger than your head really is the only way to proceed.
>> 
>> ---
>> 
>> Ultimately, I just suggest that a writer avoid monologues on rationality wherever possible. Those are never, ever good writing.
>> 
>> The structure of the story might also not fit perfectly showing the reader problems -- mysteries have a very specific format after all. Sherlock Holmes stories don't fit this, because that isn't the kind of stories they are. Holmes has knowledge you simply don't possess as the reader. Yet those stories are still beloved by readers to this day. Just, perhaps, not by hardcore mystery genre fans. They are really a sort of period thriller, after all. Maybe your story just isn't a mystery story, so don't force it into those constraints.
>> 
>> But regardless of the format of the story, if you slowly show the reader what it means to be rational instead of dumping a Rational Übermensch on them to quote scripture, I think the narrative will automatically be stronger.
>> 
>> ---
>> 
>> What's often struck me, reading about and talking with people in high-failure-cost, high-impact jobs, like construction, large-scale manufacturing, and the military, is that the successful people who've been through a lot of hands-on problem solving have a very good grasp on how to solve problems rationally in their domain.
>> 
>> As noted above, very old people will be scary good at whatever they do. Which is why you need a protagonist who has someone with *literally* more real-world experience and intelligence helping out. Kisuke Urahara, even if not played as very rational, may be your Gandalf for a rational Bleach story.
>> 
>> Maybe extend that idea of domain competence to a more general context in a magical world like Bleach's. Instead of learning how to survive a swordfight, show how trying to deal with a world that has lots of high-powered mystical combat and swordfights leads to rational solutions beyond "hit monster with sword, repeat until dead" and "train really hard, hit monster harder next time."

>>> **u/ianstlawrence** [+2]  (a day later)
>>> 
>>> Haha, it was really interesting to read what you said about my advice, because it feels like you were going: "Oh no, not this again." Which is why I gave my advice because too many stories end up not keeping some of this in mind and then I end up saying, "Oh no, not this again."
>>> 
>>> I think you added some really good balance to what I was saying, but I think overall I prefer people to lean more into my "camp" than your "camp". 
>>> 
>>> I'm not sure I've ever encountered a story that really listed things out and then rationally went through the logic and the end result was boring, unless maybe it was because it was just too, too obvious? I'm not really sure what that story looks like.
>>> 
>>> Also, I feel like in regards to the power up thing, that a lot of "rationalist" fics end up having their character do something like "train in a believable way, making full use of a skil", and then, suddenly, they are unstoppable because you kinda gave Frodo the Force with no Death Star to balance it out. I feel like this happens a lot in Naruto Fan fictions. 
>>> 
>>> I totally agree with what you said about rational monologues. I think I assumed a certain degree of basic writing teachings like "show don't tell", keep some suspense if possible, and make sure your story is interesting and engaging, not just a lecture. 
>>> 
>>> That said, I do stand by my idea that what separates a rational fic from a smart fic is that a rational fic tries to spread, at least to some degree, rationality and the myriad nuances that comes with that point of view. No one here wants to fall into the StrawVulcan fallacy (if you don't know what that is, here is a great video about rationalism in popular media: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tLgNZ9aTEwc )
>>> 
>>> Anyway, great to see a bunch of people sharing their opinions and experiences.

> **u/None** [+1]  (an hour later)
> 
> What are you looking for help on? Making it rational, making your writing good?

>> **u/MadScientist14159** [+2]  *WIP: Sodium Hypochlorite (Rational Bleach) Eventually. Maybe.* (2 hours later)
>> 
>> Making it rational (although if you have any tips to improve writing in general they're welcome too).

>>> **u/None** [+4]  (2 hours later)
>>> 
>>> /u/alexanderwales and /u/ianstlawrence have everything covered, I think. The only thing I would add is this: always ask why your characters are doing what they're doing. Then ask why those reasons exist. Then just keep asking why. If you ever get to a point that you're answering that with "Because the plot needs it," then something's gone horribly wrong.

> **u/None** [+1]  (5 hours later)
> 
> Find all of the plot holes in Bleach. Every point where something obvious was skirted to make room for a good story. Then ask what a *real* person would have done, and make them do that instead. Explain everything thoroughly, so when characters [use their powers to solve problems](http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SandersonsFirstLaw), the reader could have hypothetically come up with the same solution themselves beforehand.
> 
> That's about it, I think. Good luck!

>> **u/autotrope_bot** [+1]  (5 hours later)
>> 
>> Sanderson's First Law
>> ----
>> ____
>> Sanderson's First Law is a rule of fiction which claims that the better
>> defined and understandable a magic system is, the more an author can use it in
>> their plot. Simplified it can be interpreted as: "The better the reader
>> understands a magic system, the more it can be used to resolve conflict."
>> 
>> [Read More](http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SandersonsFirstLaw)
>> ____
>> *I am a bot. [Here is my sub](http://reddit.com/r/autotrope)*

> **u/RolandsVaria** [+1]  (15 hours later)
> 
> Well first of all, I'm rooting for you on this. I would love to see this come to fruition. I've actually thought a bit about a Bleach story like this myself. And boy do you have your work cut out for you, I can hardly think of a more nonsensical universe that still tries to take itself seriously.
> 
> Second, I agree emphatically with what TimeLoopedWarper said: "a writer avoid monologues on rationality wherever possible. Those are never, ever good writing."
> 
> Yudkowsky put them to good use in his attempts to teach rationality, but from a literary perspective they are jarring. Just have your character act intelligently from the start, and if any of their actions aren't self-evidently intelligent, then you can maybe give a brief explanation.
> 
> By that same token, I think one of the pitfalls that is good to avoid while writing rational fic is the temptation to be disrespectful to the source material. Which isn't to say that you have to keep the questionable canon elements; far from it. What I'm saying is that you should think deeply on a matter before going "you're stupid! Everyone's stupid!"
> 
> If you see something that doesn't make sense, fix it. If a character is stupid in canon, then make them more intelligent. Or barring that, broach the matter gently. Don't just call a character a raging idiot, just have the protagonist question why the other character made the choice they did, or perhaps present a better alternative while still being respectful to that character.

>> **u/ianstlawrence** [+2]  (a day later)
>> 
>> I think something that also really helps is to remove the idea that characters are stupid, and instead, make them flawed. What I mean by that is, say, like in Bleach, you have Orihime, who, it turns out, has one of the most broken powers (arguably) in the series. It might be easy to then say Orihime is stupid for not properly using it, but if you view her as flawed, you might come up with interesting reasons for why she doesn't use her powers in such a way, or misses their value. 
>> 
>> You could give us a little more backstory on Orihime, maybe explore her relationship with her brother. Maybe her brother, despite his good intentions, inadvertently ended up making her feel like she didn't have much value, because he did everything for her. He wanted her to have a proper childhood and to feel taken care of, but he ended up overextending, doing everything for her, everything, and in the process making her feel like she could never do anything on her own. So then, when confronted with powers, she automatically assumes they aren't such a big deal, and this makes sense considering that Ichigo has stepped up to fill the role left behind by her brother.
>> 
>> So now you have an interesting backstory, rather than the flippant and not very engaging throwaway of: Orihime is stupid, that's why she doesn't use her powers well.

> **u/illz569** [+1]  (19 hours later)
> 
> Some quick tips off of the top of my head:
> 
> Kill some characters. People can't constantly have their organs pulled out through their throats only to make a miraculous recovery and rejoin the team like nothing happened. If this is a real world with real superpowered individuals, there are going to be casualties.
> 
> The "mechanics" of the bleach power system always seemed really arbitrary to me. Basically, anyone can have any power the writers can think of? That opens up such a ridiculously broad spectrum of abilities, with huge potential for overpowered / munchkin-ed individuals. There needs to be some kind of limiting factor, some consistent logic for how these powers are distributed, otherwise you just have semi-strong individuals trying to go toe to toe with people who are basically gods.
> 
> Adaptability. Bleach generally handles the power imbalance problem by having the underdog suddenly find a new hidden strength and becoming twice as powerful as before. Bullshit. It's lazy writing at it's worst, and you've got to work around it. This ties back into the internal logic problem. Sure, maybe there can be ways of increasing your abilities, but they can't just conveniently happen every time you're about to lose. It needs to be more complicated than that, a puzzle that has to be solved.
> 
> Maybe the strength of an individual's abilities is inversely proportional to the amount of time they can sustain those abilities in a fight. The strongest fighters would only be able to use their powers for brief periods of time, which maybe wouldn't be such a handicap if they were capable of ending any fight right away, but it would be something that a clever opponent could take advantage of, forcing them to use their powers unnecessarily and then retaliating when they were defenseless.
> 
> There's a lot more to look at, but that's all I can think of for the time being. Bleach is definitely not the most rational show out there, but that means there's lots of room for improvement!

>> **u/None** [+2]  (21 hours later)
>> 
>> > There needs to be some kind of limiting factor, some consistent logic for how these powers are distributed, otherwise you just have semi-strong individuals trying to go toe to toe with people who are basically gods.
>> 
>> The characters don't need to know this logic, though. The readers might need to know, especially if there is a great power disparity somewhere.
>> 
>> Hunter x Hunter is an interesting example of a limiting factor. It relies on a human sense of fairness -- people decide what powers they want, then decide on some set of restrictions on those powers that is supposed to make it fair. But this is open to munchkining; I could create extremely strong powers with limitations on when I can use them, but make enough of them so that I can always use at least one. This means the real limitation is in determining which ones you can use. ("Is Venus in retrograde? Let's see, today's a Tuesday on an odd-numbered month, so I can use Dragon Slave but not Zelas Got...")

>> **u/TimeLoopedPowerGamer** [+2]  *Utopian Smut Peddler* (a day later)
>> 
>> > If this is a real world with real superpowered individuals, there are going to be casualties.
>> 
>> Well, that's the thing with Bleach. They really aren't. They're invisible dead soul fighting other dead souls, sometimes in one of several parallel worlds with some really goofy rules of their own.
>> 
>> Gritty is fine, but if too much changes it is no longer Bleach. Rather than just make it hardcore and oh so real by killing people to raise the stakes, which is a bad and overused trope, a fanfic writer should come up with consistent measures of power and injury in spiritual combat. If the bodies hit the floor because of that, so be it.
>> 
>> Just don't start a new fanfic by fridging a beloved character for no other reason.
>> 
>> ---
>> 
>> >Bleach generally handles the power imbalance problem by having the underdog suddenly find a new hidden strength and becoming twice as powerful as before.
>> 
>> That's action manga/anime for you. But again, if you remove that, it isn't really the same story. Several plot points actually use this un-lampshaded, throwing someone into combat until they "level up" this way.
>> 
>> I think a writer attempting a revised, fanfic version of Bleech needs to figure out what a rational person would do in response to this situation. I wonder what the Bleach-verse spiritual version of playing in traffic is...

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