## Humongous mecha patrolling the border of the Gaza strip * Author: u/callmebrotherg *now posting as /u/callmesalticidae** * URL: https://www.reddit.com/r/rational/comments/3a4jb7/humongous_mecha_patrolling_the_border_of_the_gaza/ * Score: 7 * Created: 2015-06-17T04:16:58 ### Post: /u/Alexanderwales mentioned this idea in another thread. Neither of us are terribly well-acquainted with the local cultures or realities of life, but it would be interesting to discuss anyway. IIRC we have some members who *are* familiar with Israel, and if worst comes to worst the discussion might be more general on some aspects and focus on rational humongous mecha. ### Comments: > **u/Aretii** [+13] *Cultist of Cthugha* (27 minutes later) > > Obvious questions: > > * How do giant mecha support their weight? > * What sort of threats are giant mecha more cost-effective at addressing than fences, soldiers, or an array of disposable human-scale mecha? > * I definitely had a third question when I started this comment but then a friend linked me to a Scott Alexander post and then after following a linktrain through several tabs, some of which are still open, I closed enough to realize that oh God I never finished this comment and can't remember what I was going to say next, but it's been half an hour so I'll just hit post. > **u/None** [+6] (35 minutes later) > > RATIONAL BOT SHOOTS EDUCATIONAL MATERIALS >> **u/PeridexisErrant** [+5] *put aside fear for courage, and death for life* (3 hours later) >> >> Sounds like a job for *Magical Girl Explanatory Pamphlets!* > **u/Kishoto** [+5] (an hour later) > > I can't say for sure, but isn't the human form recognized as sub optimal in many ways? Like, even just its very shape means you'd have to go through so much engineering to allow it to stand up and walk around, to say nothing of the jet boosting acrobatics we've seen some of our favorite Gundam accomplish. It would be a lot easier to have a mech with, say, a spider shape or a quadraped shape. > > Just balancing a human-like form alone would kill you; the amount of background mechanisms that go into allowing human beings to stand upright is pretty crazy, when you get down to it. And we still fall over sometimes. Multiply that by the size of a standard mech? May be more trouble than it's worth. > > P.S I vaguely remember /u/alexanderwales describing something along this line in Metropolitan Man, during a little scene where Lex Luthor initially started out with the idea of a mech suit, which became a better tank, after a few needed modifications. >> **u/alexanderwales** [+4] *Time flies like an arrow* (2 hours later) >> >> [Metropolitan Man, Ch 6:](https://www.fanfiction.net/s/10360716/6/The-Metropolitan-Man) >> >> > Some years ago, he'd spent days trying to make what he called a battlesuit a practical reality. It was going to be a callback to the knights in shining armor, creating a solitary soldier encased in impenetrable armor and capable of advancing on enemy lines with impunity, mounted machine guns firing away the whole time while a diesel engine belched smoke. He'd drawn up schematics and eventually began stripping parts away, replacing those things that thrilled the imagination with those that would work practically and reliably. The steel legs were replaced with treads. The arms were removed in favor of a larger cockpit with buttons and levers. The center of gravity was lowered, until the cockpit sat between or just on top of the treads. He still remembered the feeling of looking down at his design and realizing he'd done nothing more than make a better tank. LexCorp now owned two factories that made them, building up a stockpile to sell to the European powers when the next inevitable war broke out. Still, the whole project had been borne out of a vision he'd had, of diesel powered mechanized armor striding across the battlefields of the next war. The fact that he'd spent so much time pursuing that vision was a source of embarrassment. It had been a valuable lesson in critically examining those ideas that came to him suddenly and struck him on some emotional level. >> >> The basic argument for having two legs is that you have supreme maneuverability. You and I spend our time balancing upright, which isn't that hard if we have all the compensation in place; that unsteadiness is actually an asset, because it means that we can swiftly change direction. In humans, walking is partly accomplished through controlled falling. You would need a good computer, good sensors, and some ridiculous math to do it, but none of that stuff is insurmountable. (The other basic argument for having two legs is that humans have two legs, and if you're putting a human inside the thing, they need to be able to control it.) >>> **u/DCarrier** [+1] (2 hours later) >>> >>> I'm not sure how well the humans having two legs thing works. Gravity won't scale right. A 216-foot robot would walk like a 6-foot astronaut on the moon. >>>> **u/alexanderwales** [+4] *Time flies like an arrow* (2 hours later) >>>> >>>> Smaller is definitely more realistic. Even gundams, which are "only" 60 feet tall, are probably still impractically big. The Knightmare Frames from Code Geass are a much more practical 15-20 feet tall, which is only about twice as big as a human. If you make the thing out of lightweight materials (so it's designed more to deflect a roll with a hit instead of absorb it) you might have something that you could still argue was maneuverable. Going even smaller might be better. >>>> >>>> But then we get into quibbles about the difference between power armor and mechas. >>>>> **u/Kishoto** [+3] (8 hours later) >>>>> >>>>> I feel like power armor and mechas start to differ when the suit becomes so large, simple movement isn't enough to move said armor. In power armor, more often than not, the motion of your limbs (albeit powered by pneumatics, hydraulics, physics bullshit, etc.) moves the armor. Whereas in a mech, I feel like it's large to the point where lever pulls and pedal pushes are what moves the suit. Of course, this isn't an exclusive definition (think G Gundam) but, for my purposes, it's how I define the difference between the two. > **u/None** [+4] (7 hours later) > > מכה מכה מכה מכה, מכה מכה בששון! >> **u/avret** [+5] *SDHS rationalist* (16 hours later) >> >> After seeing that, I now realize how much more utterly awesome the Torah becomes when the word Mayim is switched out for Mecha. >>> **u/None** [+3] (17 hours later) >>> >>> Is there really all that much talk of water in the Torah? >>> >>> But yeah, it's worth remembering that certain hero-stories we now call religious mythology were probably canonized due to *force of sheer awesomeness*. >>> >>> Like, how about that Shimshon, eh? >>>> **u/avret** [+8] *SDHS rationalist* (17 hours later) >>>> >>>> Moshe strikes rock and mech suit comes out. >>>> Or, alternatively, based on a midrash on Eliyahu, there are 3 keys god has: the key to life, the key to death, and the key to Mech suits falling from the sky. >>>> >>>> Yep, or the war of the 4 kings and 5 kings: tens of thousands of soldiers in a massive conflict? I only have 318 men? No problem. >>>>> **u/brandalizing** [+5] *Reserve Pigeon Army* (17 hours later) >>>>> >>>>> All those wells dug to draw forth Mech suits from within the ground. >>>>>> **u/avret** [+4] *SDHS rationalist* (17 hours later) >>>>>> >>>>>> I can't believe I missed this one: Noach builds an ark to escape the mech suits blotting out all of existence >>>>>> >>>>>> EDIT: Yes, I know, I know, that's a dramatization of Kol Hayekum. >>>>>>> **u/brandalizing** [+3] *Reserve Pigeon Army* (17 hours later) >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Of course! He and his family were the only survivors when the mech suits wiped out humanity. Interesting... >>>>>>>> **u/callmebrotherg** [+3] *now posting as /u/callmesalticidae* (a day later) >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> This begs to be written. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> No. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> This begs to be made into a film. >>>>>>>>> **u/avret** [+2] *SDHS rationalist* (a day later) >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Terminator V: Flood? >> **u/Solonarv** [+2] *Chaos Legion* (7 hours later) >> >> [err, what?](https://translate.google.fr/?ie=UTF-8&hl=en&client=tw-ob#auto/en/%D7%9E%D7%9B%D7%94%20%D7%9E%D7%9B%D7%94%20%D7%9E%D7%9B%D7%94%20%D7%9E%D7%9B%D7%94%2C%20%D7%9E%D7%9B%D7%94%20%D7%9E%D7%9B%D7%94%20%D7%91%D7%A9%D7%A9%D7%95%D7%9F!) >>> **u/None** [+6] (15 hours later) >>> >>> The words are a pun on a well-known [Zionist folk dance](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mayim_Mayim). >>> >>> The part that Google Translate is rendering as "blow" can indeed be read as "makah", a *blow* or *hit*, as in a "blow to the face with his elbow". Since Hebrew makes "machine", the original root word for "mecha", into "mekhonah" (or rather, it has a pre-existing old-Hebraic word to use for "machine"), with the kh and k here being the Hebrew letter khaf/kaf, I'm imagining that the English loan-word "mecha" would be taken into Hebrew as "mekah", since the written pun makes a kind of sense. A mecha is a machine for blows, you see. >>> >>> And I would start singing the mayim-mayim song because I just really like Humongous Mecha. It doesn't help that at some point the Mayim Mayim Dance got taken over to Japan and became a part of children's gym classes, so there are loads of YouTube videos of "mayim mayim memes." >>> >>> It comes out as, "mecha mecha mecha mecha, mecha mecha in the well!", from an original, "Water water water water, water water in the well!" -- which is what people burst out singing when they managed to sink a well in the Negev. >>>> **u/autowikibot** [+1] (15 hours later) >>>> >>>> ##### >>>> >>>> ###### >>>> >>>> #### >>>> [**Mayim Mayim**](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mayim%20Mayim): [](#sfw) >>>> >>>> --- >>>> >>>> > >>>> >>>> >__Mayim Mayim__ ([Hebrew](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hebrew_language): "water, water") is a popular [Israeli folk dance](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_folk_dancing), danced to a song of the same name. It has become notable outside the Israeli dancing community and is often performed at [international folk dance](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_folk_dance) events. >>>> >>>> > >>>> >>>> --- >>>> >>>> ^Relevant: [^Israeli ^folk ^dancing](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_folk_dancing) ^| [^Grapevine ^\(dance ^move)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grapevine_\(dance_move\)) ^| [^Circle ^dance](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circle_dance) ^| [^List ^of ^ethnic, ^regional, ^and ^folk ^dances ^by ^origin](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ethnic,_regional,_and_folk_dances_by_origin) >>>> >>>> ^Parent ^commenter ^can [^toggle ^NSFW](/message/compose?to=autowikibot&subject=AutoWikibot NSFW toggle&message=%2Btoggle-nsfw+cs9vo6t) ^or[](#or) [^delete](/message/compose?to=autowikibot&subject=AutoWikibot Deletion&message=%2Bdelete+cs9vo6t)^. ^Will ^also ^delete ^on ^comment ^score ^of ^-1 ^or ^less. ^| [^(FAQs)](/r/autowikibot/wiki/index) ^| [^Mods](/r/autowikibot/comments/1x013o/for_moderators_switches_commands_and_css/) ^| [^Call ^Me](/r/autowikibot/comments/1ux484/ask_wikibot/) > **u/AmeteurOpinions** [+3] *Finally, everyone was working together.* (23 minutes later) > > Of *course* this got its own thread (inspiration is [here](http://www.reddit.com/r/rational/comments/3a0k2u/lets_stay_on_topic_rational_or_rationalist_fiction/cs8kdco?context=1)). I just knew it would. > > I've brought up [Rational Mecha](http://www.reddit.com/r/rational/comments/2fksk7/qdbst_is_there_any_interest_in_a_rationalist/) myself. The story bogged down in a never-ending loop of technical justifications for the plot, which is a sure indication of a crappy plot. Shelved for later, maybe after the fall or winter holiday seasons. > > Someday I'll get around to finishing *Flag*, an anime about modern politics, propaganda and transforming mecha in the middle east. > > Personally I know little about the Gaza strip and its politics; doing it justice would require a massive amount of research and preparation. >> **u/alexanderwales** [+3] *Time flies like an arrow* (31 minutes later) >> >> Actually, that thread you linked is the *original* original inspiration; I was fairly sure that the idea came from here, and found it pretty easily in that thread. It's specifically [this comment](http://www.reddit.com/r/rational/comments/2fksk7/qdbst_is_there_any_interest_in_a_rationalist/ckbz5dm?context=3). >> >> The basic argument is that the role that mecha best serve are as highly mobile urban special forces, with better mobility than a tank. That's aside from the obvious ~~propoganda~~ public relations aspects of having highly vaunted pilots in expensive machines that are essentially the pinnacle of technological sophistication. >> >> And yeah, the research and preparation required to tell a politically touchy story like that is basically what kills the possibility of writing it for me. >>> **u/AmeteurOpinions** [+1] *Finally, everyone was working together.* (7 hours later) >>> >>> Pretty much. Way I see it, the Sahara Desert is a terrible place to deploy a mech, but Dubai is *perfect* >> **u/None** [+2] (7 hours later) >> >> THAT'S AN ACTUAL ANIME!? >>> **u/AmeteurOpinions** [+1] *Finally, everyone was working together.* (8 hours later) >>> >>> [Yep! It has enough style to make Shaft blush and wave, too.](http://myanimelist.net/anime/1299/Flag) >>>> **u/None** [+2] (9 hours later) >>>> >>>> Ok, the reviews say the story is undercooked, but I probably have to try it nonetheless. >> **u/None** [+2] (10 hours later) >> >> >The story bogged down in a never-ending loop of technical justifications for the plot, which is a sure indication of a crappy plot. >> >> Not so sure, while flawed, Worm is filled to the brim with those, and its plot can't really be considered bad overall. >>> **u/None** [+3] (18 hours later) >>> >>> WARNING: WORM SPOILERS, ON MOBILE SO NO TAG, READ AT OWN RISK, SERIOUSLY THERE'S MAJOR SPOILERS HERE, WHY ARE YOU STILL READING IF YOU HAVEN'T READ WORM? FIX THAT AT www.parahumans.wordpress.com >>> >>> Ahem. >>> >>> Eh, all the justifications happen in implications, interludes, and behind-the-scenes - besides, it's all a bit silly, anyway. Find interesting uses for semi-organic supercomputer continent-sized organs by cutting down their capabilities to almost nothing and having creative species optimize them for *combat*? When some of the demonstrated capabilities of the shards include simulating human minds for the purposes of precognition? Either a) the precognition is too resource-intensive, in which case why are you doing it, or b) it's not, in which case why aren't you just devouring everything and everyone immediately, adding all minds to a growing collection of uploaded experimentation engines running on a set of dedicated shards? > **u/None** [+3] (8 hours later) > > In the spirit of Frodo-lightsaber-Sauron-Deathstar, what has Hamas got that makes mecha make sense? Also, real robot or super robot rules? Because arsim can't hotblood, if you ask me. >> **u/Sagebrysh** [+2] *Rank 7 Pragmatist* (14 hours later) >> >> Hamas get superlasers. >>> **u/None** [+1] (14 hours later) >>> >>> But how do those make mecha the appropriate thing to use? >>>> **u/Sagebrysh** [+1] *Rank 7 Pragmatist* (14 hours later) >>>> >>>> Oh it doesn't. Like others in this thread said, there's not much reason to make a human shaped mecha. I thought about it for quite a while, trying to think of what sorts of scenarios would see them being useful, and there really just aren't many. In urban warfare, maybe something like the [Kuratas](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kuratas), but even then, you're talking about a vehicle with a very high centre of mass. It'd make an easy target for someone in a building with an RPG. There's lot of interesting designs and shapes you could come up with for fighting vehicles, but I don't think 'human shaped' is ever going to be particularly ideal, unless its also 'human sized' >>>>> **u/autowikibot** [+1] (14 hours later) >>>>> >>>>> ##### >>>>> >>>>> ###### >>>>> >>>>> #### >>>>> [**Kuratas**](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kuratas): [](#sfw) >>>>> >>>>> --- >>>>> >>>>> > >>>>> >>>>> >__Kuratas__ is a rideable and user-operated [robot](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robot) built by the Japanese company Suidobashi Heavy Industry. Billed as "the world's first giant boarding robot", the Kuratas was unveiled when the website was opened in 2012. It was demonstrated at [Wonder Festival](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wonder_Festival). >>>>> >>>>> >==== >>>>> >>>>> >[**Image**](https://i.imgur.com/OpCbN5z.jpg) [^(i)](https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:KURATAS_-_Suidobashi_heavy_industry_rideable_robot.jpg) - *Kuratas* >>>>> >>>>> --- >>>>> >>>>> ^Relevant: [^Shigeo ^Kurata](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shigeo_Kurata) ^| [^Hideyuki ^Kurata](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hideyuki_Kurata) ^| [^Nepenthes ^kurata](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nepenthes_kurata) ^| [^Masayo ^Kurata](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masayo_Kurata) >>>>> >>>>> ^Parent ^commenter ^can [^toggle ^NSFW](/message/compose?to=autowikibot&subject=AutoWikibot NSFW toggle&message=%2Btoggle-nsfw+cs9v8xl) ^or[](#or) [^delete](/message/compose?to=autowikibot&subject=AutoWikibot Deletion&message=%2Bdelete+cs9v8xl)^. ^Will ^also ^delete ^on ^comment ^score ^of ^-1 ^or ^less. ^| [^(FAQs)](/r/autowikibot/wiki/index) ^| [^Mods](/r/autowikibot/comments/1x013o/for_moderators_switches_commands_and_css/) ^| [^Call ^Me](/r/autowikibot/comments/1ux484/ask_wikibot/) > **u/SirReality** [+2] (27 minutes later) > > Although I'm not at all versed in the nuances of middle eastern politics, I can speak to the humongous mecha aspect. Currently, I see HM being limited by materials, energy, and software. I.e. they collapse under their own weight when doing much beyond standing still, they require a lot of power used inefficiently to operate, and they have to be coordinated and balanced with good software to not fall over like babies. > > All that being said, let's say we get some strong, antigravity, superconducting material that makes them feasible. I'd envision them much the same role as aircraft carrier's today: mobile superior force with high upkeep. Seems like just having one standing nearby would be a huge deterrent. > **u/Farmerbob1** [+2] *Level 1 author* (an hour later) > > From what I know about armor and warfare, which is NOT based on being an experienced armored warfare specialist, the only strong advantage that a mecha we might build today would have over a light tank would be the potential to rapidly switch weapons. > > The tank, on the other hand, would have a lower profile, better sloping of armored surfaces, and a extremely low center of gravity. > > The mecha might move better in extremely broken terrain, but tanks are better in urban warfare than you might think, if the *hit hits the fan, and your commanding officer says it's time to take the gloves off. Then you can go through buildings rather then around them, and it doesn't matter what's in the road if you need to get to point 'B' > > Also, a mecha, because of how many joints it has to allow humaniform motion, has a LOT of weak spots in it's armor. That humaniform motion also requires a FAR more complicated locomotion system. > > In the end, I don't see mecha as being rational fighting machines for urban combat until they are very close to what we see in Battletech or Robotech. > > Now, for amphibious assault? That might be a different story entirely. Being able to walk across the ocean floor could open up a LOT of interesting options. > **u/LiteralHeadCannon** [+2] (2 hours later) > > There should really be an anime about this. It's not like anime is afraid to dip its nose into heated real-world issues it knows little about. > **u/IomKg** [+2] (4 hours later) > > I don't think there has been any kind of valid rational arguments for humanoid mecha bots(not counting mechanized armores which are possibly a little different situation). > > The only possible reason such a bot might exist IRL would be because people think its cool and its not out of the question some military person would also ignore\rationalize the impracticality of such a bot and have it made. > > Otherwise such bots are just significantly inferior to plain tanks\planes on land, and space optimized(oval?) fighter for reasons I believe already explored in multiple such discussions in the past. > > Not sure how huge mecha's are a particularity of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict btw.. >> **u/Farmerbob1** [+2] *Level 1 author* (5 hours later) >> >> I could see a potential role for them in amphibious assault, because of their bipedal versatility that could allow for crossing very rough underwater terrain, but otherwise agree with you. >>> **u/IomKg** [+1] (6 hours later) >>> >>> What kind of terrain would it traverse better then a similarly sized tank? >>> Are you referring to something like cliffs? if so i can't really see any battle applicability as a flying\submersible vehicle would fit better(not like a humanoid mecha would really be significantly more armored to supply any real benefit). >>>> **u/Farmerbob1** [+1] *Level 1 author* (13 hours later) >>>> >>>> Battle applicability would definitely be lower, only mobility would be enhanced. Humaniform mecha would be able to walk on the ocean bottom, climb over rocky terrain, and then emerge from the water and seek cover on land. Basically a specialized beachhead-creating unit. They would not press an attack, their purpose would be to quickly attack, establish a place to land more troops and armor, and then get out of the way. >>>> >>>> That's the only potentially significant role I can imagine using humaniform mecha for, with technology levels anything like our current-day. At least rationally. >>> **u/boomfarmer** [+1] *Trying to be helpful* (3 days later) >>> >>> > their bipedal versatility that could allow for crossing very rough underwater terrain, >>> >>> Why not just swim? >>>> **u/Farmerbob1** [+2] *Level 1 author* (3 days later) >>>> >>>> Swimming on top of the water makes you a boat, and easily seen, and shot at. Swimming below the water makes you visible to side scanning sonar. Walking along the bottom means you can follow the terrain, and do not need an extra / disposable propulsion system. >>>> >>>> Bipedal mecha suits could be very handy for Engineering and maintenance teams behind the front lines, and fitted for amphibious operations when needed. >>>>> **u/boomfarmer** [+1] *Trying to be helpful* (4 days later) >>>>> >>>>> Huh. Why bipedal, instead of something closer approximating a crab? Multilegged designs get more traction per unit body mass, better terrain stabilization, and improved weight and drag distribution. Bipedal bodies tend to be very vertical, so unless the biped it keeled all the way forwards, it's not going to have a good `leg traction force` to `drag` ratio. >>>>>> **u/Farmerbob1** [+1] *Level 1 author* (4 days later) >>>>>> >>>>>> Good points. A many-legged vehicle will have even more complex drive train than a bipedal vehicle. It's individual legs are going to be less powerful and less well armored. I don't see why a bipedal mecha couldn't move on it's hands and knees, if need be. >>>>>> >>>>>> That being said, the fact that biological crabs have been around for a great many millions of years, and happen to be little amphibious assault critters, gives a lot of weight to your argument. If the extra complexity of the drive train wasn't a problem, the crab-style body would probably be superior. > **u/brandalizing** [+4] *Reserve Pigeon Army* (59 minutes later) > > Israeli soldier here. Happy to answer questions. Also, calling /u/eaturbrainz >> **u/alexanderwales** [+5] *Time flies like an arrow* (an hour later) >> >> I'd like a book recommendation, ideally something that focuses on a soldier's experience more than the political aspects. My questions: >> >> * What's the day-to-day life of a soldier like? >> * How much is the IDF governed by external politics? To what extent is public perception a factor? >> * How much is the IDF governed by *internal* politics? Are there choice postings that people strive for? Men and women trying to move up the military power structure? Decisions that were clearly made because someone cared more about looking good than about tactical/strategic thinking? >> * How religious, if at all, is the IDF? >> >> Hopefully none of those questions are too stupid. >>> **u/brandalizing** [+5] *Reserve Pigeon Army* (7 hours later) >>> >>> For books, "Lonely Soldier: The Memoir of an American in the Israeli Army" is...exactly what it says on the tin. Great view from an outsider on the inside. >>> >>> "Brotherhood of Warriors" gives a look into the elite, counter-terrorism units. >>> >>> > What's the day-to-day life of a soldier like? >>> >>> This varies wildly with said soldier's position, of course, as well as whether or not we are in wartime. >>> >>> The bulk of the military is non-combatants, known as jobniks. I am included in this demographic. In reality, about 50% of jobniks don't actually do anything essential. The result is a lot of "busy work", the idea of which drives me bonkers. I once tried to suggest a reasonable reorganization of the storage system when I was working in the logistics division of my base, and my commander declined to make any changes, saying "that's not how we do it here". I was then told to sort a bunch of papers in the most inefficient way possible, so that I would "have something to do". Granted, I cannot know that it is handled thusly in all section of the jobnik forces, but that does seem to be the general mindset. >>> >>> My first day on base, I was put in the storage unit with another soldier (who had been there a year already) and told to unpack a recent shipment of supplies onto the shelves. Being as naive as I was, I assumed that meant I should actually do so. When he saw how I was trying my utmost to do a good job, he told me to stop working so hard, "it's easier if you show them you can't be relied upon". >>> >>> This entire mindset is radically different in combat units, however. I've just asked a friend of mine who is in the tanks division to send me his own answer to the question - I'll either edit this post when he responds, or send it to you as a message. >>> >>> > How much is the IDF governed by external politics? To what extent is public perception a factor? >>> >>> I can't answer this nearly as well as I'd like, as I am embarrassingly ignorant of the greater workings of the army and its interactions with politics as a whole. I can say that public perception is usually pretty in-line with the army, as, it being a mandatory draft, just about everybody is part of the army, in some way, at one point or another, and a large part stay in as career soldiers/commanders/officers. >>> >>> That isn't to say that everyone loves or agrees with the army, just that everyone understands and "knows" the army, having been on the inside themselves. >>> >>> > How much is the IDF governed by *internal* politics? Are there choice postings that people strive for? Men and woman trying to move up the military power structure? Decisions that were clearly made because someone cared more about looking good than about tactical/strategic thinking? >>> >>> Again, this differs between the jobniks and the combat units. As for "choice postings," this depends entirely upon the individual. I consider myself to have such a position, where I am required to do not-much-at-all all day for a week, then am given a week off to work/be home. Most people would never take my position, however, because I almost never see anyone when I'm on base. I'm alone for most of the entire week, both in my "office" and in my room. From ~5:00 Thursday to Sunday morning, I see absolutely no one. This is perfectly fine with me, but I understand how it would drive most Israelis insane, given that, as far as I can tell, they are 99% extreme extroverts. >>> >>> The climb up the "military power structure" really only starts one you've finished mandatory service and signed on for additional years, as a career soldier/commander/officer. Usually the people in these positions actually want to be there, which makes their attitude quite different. There are always those who are just in it for honor/prestige/power, but generally the military life isn't the most enjoyable lifestyle one could choose, thus effectively selecting those who aren't only in it for themselves. Of course, this doesn't mean they're smart, or guarantee that they'll make good decisions. But at least their motives are good, right? Yay. >>> >>> More on the two previous questions as responses come in from people I've contacted. People who actually know what they're talking about. >>> >>> > How religious, if at all, is the IDF? >>> >>> It's actually becoming *more* religious as time goes on. Kosher meals are a given everywhere in the military now, and every base has a synagogue with a rabbi that provides the usual services and daily prayers. Soldiers are required to be given these times if they are requested. Religious soldiers are alone in being allowed to not shave - as long as they are actually growing a beard, meaning that you can't just have a bunch of stubble every few days because you forgot to shave. All or nothing. >>> >>> Obviously the requirements in the field are another story, but where the activities are not necessary to prevent loss of life, religious soldiers keep the Sabbath as always. For most religious holidays, jobnik bases are practically empty, left with a skeleton crew as the rest of the base is given off, even those not religious - most religious holidays are national holidays as well. >>> >>> There are combat units composed entirely of religious soldiers, and many, many heads of the elite units are religious themselves. Yeshiva programs called Hezder have their entire participating student body (of the same year) go into the army together, as in the same unit(s), throughout the entirety of their service. >>> >>> The vast majority of the soldiers in the IDF are still secular, of course, but the trend seems to be that the IDF itself is growing more religious. How far it will go, I have no idea, nor what the political repercussions will be. >>> >>> I'm sorry if I wasn't able to answer everything as well as you had hoped - again, further information is incoming. >>> >>> Disclaimer: all quotes have been translated to English for ease of understanding and so that you don't have to pretend to trust Google translate's work. >>>> **u/alexanderwales** [+1] *Time flies like an arrow* (9 hours later) >>>> >>>> That's all really interesting, thank you. >>>>> **u/brandalizing** [+1] *Reserve Pigeon Army* (10 hours later) >>>>> >>>>> You are quite welcome. Thank you for your appreciation. >>> **u/None** [+3] (15 hours later) >>> >>> There's also Unit 8200, which takes soldiers who have high-tech skills by age 18 to work on things like the Iron Dome, ~~Stuxnet~~, drones, and enemy detection systems. There are also some smaller high-tech units inside Tzahal -- a friend of mine works on neural-nets for computer vision as his army job. Oh, and there are Atuda'im, who basically study their university degrees while in uniform, then do "keva" (meaning: permanent/set) extended service over the base 3 years in the IDF. >>> >>> Many of these sorts of units supply Israel with its high-tech entrepreneurs later in life. The Army tends to be a good experience for that, because it inculcates the famous Israeli attitude of, "Just make it fucking work." Half of everything in Israel is jury-rigged, in some ways, and the reason it all keeps working is because of that attitude: make it work, then keep it working, and design constraints are for suckers. >>> >>> Now, I don't know about *humongous* mecha, but some kind of powered armor that could protect from booby-traps, IEDs, grenade shrapnel, and the other hazards of asymmetrical urban warfare might make a decent sci-fi device. >>>> **u/alexanderwales** [+2] *Time flies like an arrow* (15 hours later) >>>> >>>> Thanks for the input; this is reinforcing my intuition that I could never actually write this story due to lack of knowledge. I definitely think that something more on the scale of powered armor makes the most sense, both in the context of asymmetric urban warfare and plain old technical constraints. >>>>> **u/Empiricist_or_not** [+2] *Aspiring polite Hegemonizing swarm* (a day later) >>>>> >>>>> I think anything going into a rational powered body armor is going to need handwaving similar to Shinji's body armor in "Shiji and 40k" or "Thousand Shinji" whichever one had the non-Newtonian fluids quote. Either way watch a few history channel specials on infantry, reactive armor, and read that one on the war against Heaven and hell and you'd be good enough to take a swing at it. >>>>> >>>>> Disclaimer: I did my tours in the navy, and just finished listening to "Metropolitan man" again, so I'm biased >>>> **u/Iconochasm** [+2] (a day later) >>>> >>>> >make it work, then keep it working, and design constraints are for suckers. >>>> >>>> Huh. Kinda seems like Israel might be the *best* place for a giant mecha story. > **u/Izeinwinter** [+1] (4 hours later) > > Mecha are not rational. About the only reason to make a human form machine is if you want it to fit into spaces and roles constructed for humans, in which case it needs to be human sized. An android would be a not-insane choice for a combat bot designed to do house sweeps without knocking the house down, but that really falls under "policing". I could see Israel building remote-waldo soldiers like that, but a huge one? No military value, and the public relations effects would be unlikely to be a net win. > Uhm.. the Palestinian's build it as a pr stunt to protest against an Israeli policy of hunting down Hama's soldiers with disposable android drones? That would be about the only rational reason I can think of to have one. > **u/avret** [+1] *SDHS rationalist* (16 hours later) > > So, is the question what effect it would have on politics, or why it would be useful, or...? >> **u/alexanderwales** [+2] *Time flies like an arrow* (16 hours later) >> >> Let's say you get a note from `x` years in the future, telling you that the IDF are using mech suits. What things do you think must be true about the world, given that information? >>> **u/avret** [+2] *SDHS rationalist* (16 hours later) >>> >>> Hmm...based on my knowledge of the current conflict...either the PA or Hamas would have to have vastly improved air and antitank weaponry, since the current Israeli system works pretty damn well given its own regulations about civilian warnings have been hamstringing it. Also, Israel's economy's survived a much expanded BDS network(Since mech troops would destroy Israel's national image worse than settling literally in Abu Dis would), so either America really came through in the clutch(indicating at least a few victories for a kulanu govt b/c there's no way Likud got that kind of diplomatic participation out of even the most diehard of republican govts) or they've improved tech to the point that corporations take the PR hit and buy from them. >>> >>> EDIT: I think this covers everything that would have to be true from the geopolitical side, but anyone more versed in Israeli politics should please correct me(/u/brandalizing, perhaps?) >>>> **u/brandalizing** [+2] *Reserve Pigeon Army* (17 hours later) >>>> >>>> "Versed in Israeli politics" are not words that describe me, at least not truthfully. Local politics are something I very much should know about, and yet have stayed woefully ignorant of since I moved here, in favor of reading books and writing things. I am feeling quite guilty about this lack of knowledge now. ---