## [WIP] Magic System Explanation for RPG setting

* Author: u/booljayj *
* URL: https://www.reddit.com/r/rational/comments/3dk0w5/wip_magic_system_explanation_for_rpg_setting/
* Score: 8

* Created: 2015-07-16T22:05:25

### Post:

First of all, I'm not sure if this is explicitly related to this subreddit, but I have a lot of respect for this community and I'd like to see how rational my explanations are.

I've been creating a setting for an RPG system I'm developing, and I want to stay away from the highly-mystical explanations that you'll usually see. I want my system to have a grounding in science, but still be able to replicate any magical effects you'd see in DnD or other RPG worlds. Magic is still magic, but I feel like there should be a good reason for why magic exists and how it works, and that's not something you see very often.

__The Basics__

4 powerful races, each a Kardeshev Type 3 civilization, each build a machine to stop the eventual heat death of the universe. These machines are built into the fabric of space-time itself, capable of altering the fundamental laws of physics and changing universal constants. By the time these machines are complete, the heat death has progressed too far, and they can't stop it. The universe dies, and these 4 races are gone, but the machines remain.

The machines are intelligent, and capable of basic communication with each other. With combined effort, they are able to create a 'bubble' in the midst of the ruined universe. Inside this bubble is a new universe. Each machine takes control of a quarter of this bubble universe, and starts to build there.

__A New Universe__

The machines are implanted with the ideals of the races that created them, so they each attempt to create the new universe in that image. The end result are 4 vastly different areas, called "Realms", with disputed lands between them. The machines also populate their realms with intelligent life, again modeled after their creators. There is the Divine Realm, The Nature Realm, The Arcane Realm, and The Occult Realm, names chosen by the inhabitants.

These 4 realms begin warring with each other, almost constantly. The universe is small, and each of them wants to spread. The inhabitants beseech their "gods", the machines that created them, for tools to help them thrive. Eventually, the machines acquiesce, and provide them with spells.

__Spells and Magic__

The spells are in the form of a codex, a written diagram that describes the precise nature of the intended effect. If a person can understand the codex, they are able to indicate to a specific machine exactly what they want to happen. A malformed codex will produce no effect, and the greater the person's knowledge the more efficient and powerful a codex will be.

Introducing the spells backfires, and rather than protect the inhabitants of each realm, the war escalates. A treaty is reached, and neutral ground is proposed. 

__The Game__

At the center of the universe, surrounded by the realms, a new solar system was created. Each realm had equal hand in the creation of this system, contributing its ideals to the whole. This solar system is where the adventures in the RPG take place.

The people living in this system all have different ideas about the nature of magic. To some, spells each draw from one of four wells of power, and that's all there is to it. Some think the spells are prayers to one of the 4 gods, asking for them to intervene. Very few know the actual truth.

### Comments:

> **u/KZLightning** [+6]  (2 hours later)
> 
> I find that the "machines" seem to be identical to actual gods. What exactly is the difference? They can rewrite the laws of the universe and change fundamental constants. That is pretty much the definition of "miracle", so their activity is supernatural. That said, how a civilization managed to make them and how they are changing physical laws is opaque at best.
> 
> I think that what you should focus on is making your magical system consistent. Take your four systems. Since they are each intelligent, what are their goals? Are they capable of working with each other and communicating with each other? If their goal was to stop the war, why was that their goal? We basically know nothing at all about their motivations.
> 
> Also, what are the limits of these machines? Why don't they simply make the universe bigger? Why don't they split the universe into four universes each with their own realm?
> 
> Finally, what sort of effects can the spells produce? If we are speaking of "DnD type magic" does this include the wide variety of effects found in that system or does this just refer to an element of that system? I have even heard that phrase used for a system of elemental magic!

>> **u/booljayj** [+2]  (3 hours later)
>> 
>> Functionally, there is no difference. They are certainly seen as gods by many of the people in the new universe, but that's precisely the idea. Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic, and the framework I've created shows exactly that. My goal was to expand on the idea of what a 'god' was, to turn it into something that is natural rather than supernatural.
>> 
>> The machines don't have any specific goal that they are working towards. Their original purpose was to halt the heat death of the universe, but they failed to do that. In their current state, their only real stated goals are to just keep the same thing from happening again. However, they do have ideals which they are structured around, which contribute to the flavor and style of the magics they power, as well as the style of the realm they control. It was the inhabitants of the realms that wanted spells to give themselves a survival advantage, and the machines begrudgingly gave them the ability to use some of their power.
>> 
>> As far as limitations, the machines operate by putting a kind of 'pressure' on space-time. This pressure creates various local effects, such as causing virtual particles to become real particles (matter/energy creation), or effecting the quantum interactions of elementary particles (altering properties of matter). The amount of pressure they can exert is limited, because too much will cause damage, like the sudden creation of a black hole. They were only able to create the bubble with a combined effort, none of them is strong enough to do so on their own. Likewise, the bubble is the maximum size that they can maintain.
>> 
>> Spells produce many different effects. I'm using the DnD spells as templates, so basically every single DnD spell effect is possible (excepting ones directly tied into the mechanics of DnD). For every goal you have, there is usually a spell in each system that can reach that goal. If you want to create a fire, there is a spell in each system that can do that (the following are examples which follow the theme of each system):
>> 
>> - Arcane: spell which creates a blast of flame.
>> - Divine: spell that will increase the temperature of a target volume.
>> - Occult: spell which lowers the flash point of a given material within a certain radius
>> - Nature: spell which calls down a bolt of lightning from the sky
>> 
>> There are also interactions between each source. The Divine Realm and the Occult Realm don't get along well, and neither do their magics. Likewise with the Nature Realm and the Arcane Realm. This is mostly due to their conflicting ideals.

>>> **u/KZLightning** [+2]  (16 hours later)
>>> 
>>> They may not currently have goals, but if they have "ideals", then what are they? If the difference between the four is to be explained, then these ideals will have to be involved.
>>> 
>>> You say that the bubble is the maximum size that they can maintain. But that is currently. Since they can violate the laws of thermodynamics, there is no reason they cannot increase the size of bubble over time. I suppose that you could just handwave that problem, but that would conflict with your goal to explain the magic. If you cannot increase the size of the bubble, then violating thermodynamics means that the bubble will slowly reach radiant temperatures everywhere. If the bubble increases in size, then this is no longer a problem.
>>> 
>>> Creating fire was not the intent of my question. DnD spells can resurrect the dead, shapechange permanently, shift to different planes of existence, enchant objects with spells, heal the sick, become undead, etc. There are also summoning spells, precognition spells, mind control spells and there are ways to become immortal, to become a demigod and to create pocket dimensions. I really doubt that your system can allow for all of these effects.

>>>> **u/booljayj** [+1]  (17 hours later)
>>>> 
>>>> __Ideals__
>>>> 
>>>> Basic Ideals for each system:
>>>> 
>>>> - Divine: Power, Glory, Order, and Control
>>>> - Occult: Randomness, Struggle, New Life, and Truth
>>>> - Nature: Solemnity, Patterns, Growth, and Cycles
>>>> - Arcane: Energy, Flow, Purity, and Creation
>>>> 
>>>> These ideals help form the style and flavor of spells for each system. They inform the way the machines see the world, and what they see as important or relevant. Nature spells are more likely to be tied into the cycle of seasons, or use plants in some way. Arcane spells are more likely to create energy, and operate on single elements or compounds. Divine spells are more likely to involve directly controlling or manipulating things in your favor. Occult spells are more likely to alter basic physical properties, or operate on flesh.
>>>> 
>>>> __The Bubble__
>>>> 
>>>> The bubble is like a physical bubble. Inside is an area of low entropy (the new universe), and outside is an area of extremely high entropy (the old universe). The machines were basically able to take all the places where there were still slight temperature differences and collect them all in one place, then stretch space in order to amplify those differences, setting up a boundary that would prevent energy from crossing. At all times, the bubble is threatening to collapse, and it is only with continued vigilance that the bubble is maintained. If the machines made it larger, it would be more difficult to keep the system stable, and it could collapse.
>>>> 
>>>> The machine's ability to manipulate entropy is limited, but within the bubble that limited effect has a big difference. They are able to keep entropy from rising for long periods of time.
>>>> 
>>>> __DnD Spells__
>>>> 
>>>> As far as DnD effects, many of them are possible. Again, you have to look at the _goal_ of the spell, not its specific effects. The effects are often specific to the DnD universe, but the end results of the spells can often be replicated.
>>>> 
>>>> - Resurrect the dead: Yes, with a combination of spells from different systems. Occult spells can be used to recreate a body, and Divine spells can be used to recreate a mind. Both require some template or snapshot of the person when they were alive, which is another thing that can be created with spells.
>>>> - Shapechange permanently: Yes, Occult and Nature spells can make permanent cosmetic changes to a person's body. Divine and Arcane spells can create illusions of more drastic changes.
>>>> - Shift to different planes of existence: In my system, there aren't 'planes' in the DnD sense, but there are spells which can be used to travel between the 4 realms.
>>>> - Enchant objects with spells: Yes. Objects can be bound with a spell that is released when certain conditions are met. There are also spells which alter weapons and armor in some ways (make them feather-light, prevent wear, etc.).
>>>> - Heal the sick: Yes. Divine and Nature magics are particularly good at this, for both physical and mental ailments.
>>>> - Become Undead: No. The concept of "undead" is not something which exists. Reanimation of corpses is possible, but those corpses are then living, and require food and water to stay alive and muscles to move with.
>>>> - Summoning Spells: Yes. Both kinds of summoning, either creating a creature from nothing or transporting it to you from somewhere else.
>>>> - Precognition Spells: Yes, but limited. The future can only be seen in broad strokes, based on a statistical analysis of what's happened in the past. If you're familiar with the Foundation series, this is psychohistory. Clairvoyance is much more common, the ability to see things remotely or perceive everything in a wide area.
>>>> - Mind Control Spells: Yes, though usually not permanent control. There are plenty of spells which can manipulate emotions, and a few which put the target into a suggestive state.
>>>> - Become Immortal: No. With the use of healing spells one could stay alive for a very long time, but true immortality is out of reach.
>>>> - Become a demigod: No. "Demigod" is not a concept in my world, not in the way it is in DnD.
>>>> - Create Pocket Dimensions: This is a vague one. Some spells can create warped space, like what can be found in a bag of holding, but I don't think that's what you mean. It's not possible to create other "bubble" universes, that requires too much power.

>>>>> **u/KZLightning** [+2]  (a day later)
>>>>> 
>>>>> I have a good idea of what spells can do and what those ideals are, but the restriction on the bubble universe is a handwave.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Let me illustrate. The machines can create energy out of nothing. The machines use that energy to negate entropy. The machines have energy left over (for spells). Let's suppose that the machines can only create a limited amount of energy per unit of time. That is fine. Suppose further that maintaining the stability of the bubble requires most of that energy. Also fine. So why don't the machines use some of their excess energy to make more of themselves? They can insure that the new machines have the same values as they do, add extra energy to world and thereby increase the size of the bubble. If the machines do not know how, then they can simply research the matter until they do know how. Apart from a handwave, why don't they try this?

>>>>>> **u/booljayj** [+1]  (a day later)
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Creating more of themselves is not something I thought about before, and is a fair point. I'll have to think about the implications of that. Off the top of my head, I would think that the races who created the machines wouldn't want them to become self-replicating, and would have put reasonable restrictions on their ability to reproduce. This doesn't stop the people in the new universe from eventually learning how to make more, though.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> One thing that's already part of the canon is that these machines require an incredible investment of resources to make. The races that created them were Kardeshev Type 3, meaning they had access to all the energy produced by all the stars in a galaxy. It's possible that there simply isn't enough energy left to make another machine, or that building up that much energy would take an incredibly long time with the slow trickle that the machines produce.

>>>>>>> **u/KZLightning** [+2]  (a day later)
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Well, at least I brought that problem to your attention.

> **u/Gurkenglas** [+6]  (an hour later)
> 
> It feels as though you've replaced the mysterious word "gods" with the mysterious word "machines", etcetera. I can imagine that you will detail everything to be reductionist, but it is uncertain.

>> **u/booljayj** [+2]  (3 hours later)
>> 
>> The goal is to provide an explanation for what the 'god' is, and what the 'magic' is. That word is usually thrown out as if it's a final explanation, but what do people mean when they say it? In my system, I provide some greater background on what these gods actually are and where they came from. Some of it is still mysterious because it involves a little extrapolation of what we currently know about physics. That's inevitable, since magical effects aren't currently possible within our understanding of the universe.

> **u/TimeLoopedPowerGamer** [+3]  *Utopian Smut Peddler* (2 hours later)
> 
> Reddit has long been a hot spot for conversation on the internet. About 57 million people visit the site every day to chat about topics as varied as makeup, video games and pointers for power washing driveways.
> 
> In recent years, Reddit’s array of chats also have been a free teaching aid for companies like Google, OpenAI and Microsoft. Those companies are using Reddit’s conversations in the development of giant artificial intelligence systems that many in Silicon Valley think are on their way to becoming the tech industry’s next big thing.
> 
> Now Reddit wants to be paid for it. The company said on Tuesday that it planned to begin charging companies for access to its application programming interface, or A.P.I., the method through which outside entities can download and process the social network’s vast selection of person-to-person conversations.
> 
> “The Reddit corpus of data is really valuable,” Steve Huffman, founder and chief executive of Reddit, said in an interview. “But we don’t need to give all of that value to some of the largest companies in the world for free.”
> 
> The move is one of the first significant examples of a social network’s charging for access to the conversations it hosts for the purpose of developing A.I. systems like ChatGPT, OpenAI’s popular program. Those new A.I. systems could one day lead to big businesses, but they aren’t likely to help companies like Reddit very much. In fact, they could be used to create competitors — automated duplicates to Reddit’s conversations.
> 
> Reddit is also acting as it prepares for a possible initial public offering on Wall Street this year. The company, which was founded in 2005, makes most of its money through advertising and e-commerce transactions on its platform. Reddit said it was still ironing out the details of what it would charge for A.P.I. access and would announce prices in the coming weeks.
> 
> Reddit’s conversation forums have become valuable commodities as large language models, or L.L.M.s, have become an essential part of creating new A.I. technology.
> 
> L.L.M.s are essentially sophisticated algorithms developed by companies like Google and OpenAI, which is a close partner of Microsoft. To the algorithms, the Reddit conversations are data, and they are among the vast pool of material being fed into the L.L.M.s. to develop them.

>> **u/booljayj** [+2]  (3 hours later)
>> 
>> A codex is like a very complicated mathematical formula. A novice might be able to understand in the broadest of terms what a codex should do, but a master will understand the formula well enough to use it to its fullest potential.
>> 
>> The actual use of the codex usually involves a series of precise sounds, movements, and even thoughts. These are used to direct the power of the spell to the intended effects.
>> 
>> The overall explanation is this: A codex is like a contract. You implore the machine to produce an effect for you, and you have to be extremely clear on what you want to happen. If you aren't clear, or if the machine doesn't feel you understand the contract, no effect will occur. You need to always have the codex because each use of the spell is a new contract for another spell effect.
>> 
>> Edit regarding disputes about magic: Each machine uses a different system for its spells. Understanding the Arcane language won't help you cast a Divine spell. Understanding and casting a spell is different from understanding what's going on under the hood, much in the way that I'm able to understand and use a car without knowing the specifics of how the engine works.

---