## [Q] That New World Smell * Author: u/None * * URL: https://www.reddit.com/r/rational/comments/3iwe7a/q_that_new_world_smell/ * Score: 6 * Created: 2015-08-29T23:32:51 ### Post: Ten years ago, the Old Gods were in a bit of a pinch, on a losing end of a war that threatened to end all of their up to then presumably eternal lives. They needed a planet full of warriors, driven enough to beat back their enemies and clever enough to use the gifts of their Gods, and so one of their own birthed a planet and people whose very souls were made of magic and could utilize it like none other before. Six months in, the war was won, and the Gods were left with a magical warrior race billions strong, whose very will shaped a full history of their existence, and reality yielded to them. Nine and a half years later, coincidentally on this very planet, the population is celebrating the ten year anniversary of first contact, drafted into a cosmic war and beating up the bad guys, go team! Except while everyone else is busy learning new secrets of magic from their alien buddies, doing good for common humanity and shit, there exist a sect of those who study the strange art of Antimagic, and they found something. By measuring the background radiation of the planet against a meteorite that fell to earth someone was trying to use a megaspell to unite humanity or something, they found that the planet is far, far younger than the billions of years it should be. But if they go public, their evidence could become inert by the nature of the magical community denying it, thus making it so, or the planet itself could collapse out of sheer panic. There do exist forces who wouldn't mind if the Earth just disappeared now that the great cosmic war is over, but that's not relevant information to the hypothetical right now. * Does the setting and science involved pass the sniff test for reasonable discussion? * How would you test the theory that the world is ten years old if all of your objective evidence could be made irrelevant by bringing it to the attention of everyone, they already being skeptical of you being a spooky scary scientist who wants to take the magic away? * In such a system where Magic exists as Motivation, Influence, and Preconceptions of a global society, how do you break it for vast power and personal gain, because this is the thing we do around here, isn't it? ### Comments: > **u/Nepene** [+4] (a day later) > > Other possible theories. > > 1. Some magical effect altered the isotope ratios. > > 2. The theory is wrong. > > 3. Some force other than the gods magic'd up the planet. > > The gods could support various theories. They could say that, perhaps, people's expectations that rocks were constant made it so. They could say, yes, it appears you are fake, what a shock, who did this to us? They could say "We did this, you were violent psycopaths from another world, we did this to give you a fresh start." They could do all of those. > > How do you break it? Seize on pre-existing pressures. Are people in loveless relationships that should be annulled as false? Are some people in unfair contracts that were signed before this? You hire celebrities to promote this message. > > "You only live once, don't let it go to waste! You didn't exist ten years ago, anything that happened before that doesn't matter." > > You sell it as personal freedom. > **u/PL_TOC** [+3] (an hour later) > > Why would the earth's age cause a panic? > > Are you experiencing anything unusual in connection to this project? >> **u/None** [+1] (an hour later) >> >> Me as the Author, or is the character at the center of it experiencing something unusual? >> >> There would be a panic mostly because the epiphany that history, not just memories of events, but the things that happened before the war just didn't happen, and is all a collective delusion. That's a little concerning to say the least, but on top of that is the fact that the higher powers claimed to have come across that particular Earth and Prime Directived it until the war was too dire to not drag them in. To learn that your race and planet was a weapon to turn the tide of a war the gods brought you into, wouldn't that be at the very least controversial? >>> **u/PL_TOC** [+1] (2 hours later) >>> >>> My original message formatting came out all wrong. I meant you, personally. >>>> **u/None** [+1] (2 hours later) >>>> >>>> No, I'm feelin fine. Slightly anxious about a new job but that's not here or there. I wanted to come to the sub to bounce ideas and poke holes into the magical system for the story I am writing, and how a rationalist would interact with the word if magic was the constant, scientifically poking at it is the new medium, and the Earth literally falling apart is a metaphor for that anxiety some people get when something they know in there heart of hearts is true, but reality seems to think otherwise. If not the Earth itself, then that that person is made a little more fragile until they figure out their place in the world. >>>>> **u/PL_TOC** [+1] (3 hours later) >>>>> >>>>> Have you settled on the magic system >>>>>> **u/None** [+1] (3 hours later) >>>>>> >>>>>> Magic is a discipline of many expressions, and most of the specifics consists of soft laws and limits that are only there because they are agreed upon that it is what magic can and cannot do. There's a thing called the Usagi theorem that states that as people are made of Magic, societal preconceptions state the rules of magic, and they are made so. Females are on average more conductive to magic, because a lot of the early movers and shakers in the Magical World were female. Shooting a fireball from your hand is easy, trying to convince someone that the fireball won't veer right and set them on fire before they intercept it and make it so is more difficult. >>>>>>> **u/PL_TOC** [+1] (3 hours later) >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I think you should focus on the issue of human Agency and Sovereignty, in terms of reaction to the aliens. >>>>>>>> **u/None** [+1] (4 hours later) >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> K. Thanks. > **u/resononce** [+1] (3 hours later) > > So trying to prove the earth was only 10(x?) years old would retroactively make it much older? Why does this not apply for people who claim the planet is only 10,000? What would such an event actually change? What does studying anti-magic imply for magic that it is hated? >> **u/None** [+1] (4 hours later) >> >> > Why does this not apply for people who claim the planet is only 10,000? >> >> It does. There are legends and traditions that go back for centuries, and the mythos of those eras say that the world is unspeakably old. The aliens in question are happy to let them look at data from neighboring planets and let them come to their own conclusions. Plus there's a bit of a social pressure to not blasphemy when the gods are on your doorstep. >> >> > What would such an event actually change? >> >> Everything and nothing. All of that Earth's History is called into question as shared memories that left behind nothing tangible, every relic could just as easily be undone. Such is the nature of magic and memory, but in addition to a robbed history, there is also there is a trust issue introduced when your alien buddies willing to let you learn from them the secrets of their magics are actually trying to control the big damn bomb and making it sustainable during a peacetime. Plus, if the world could be magically made, it could just as easily be magically unmade, and as magic makes things that people think into reality, well... >> >> > What does studying anti-magic imply for magic that it is hated? >> >> It's kind of seen as a anti-intellectual pursuit and a practice of bullheadedness. Magic is the hard knowledge of the universe, constant and eternal. It may fluctuate and change with society, but Magic is what Magic does, and it is fundamentally tied to this humanity. If you know magic, you know yourself. >> >> Anti-Magic is a rejection of that ideal, and a focus on what is here, now, and the study of the natural physical world without the veil of magic. It's kind of become a study in the esoteric, as magic can make the physical laws of the universe it's bitch. There is a fear that if too much is studied, magic will lose it's power, and because magic is what the people demand of it, it's entirely possible that magic will suffer with further studying, possibly to the point of being able to be gamed and not being able to be easily undone. >> >> But really, it's because they are different ways of seeing the world that there is animosity between one or the other in the first place. Magic can't be placed easily in a Science Box, Science can't be easily placed in a Magic Box, and devotees pitted against one another have to pick each other's fights because the other side is wrong and they are right. The two exist in the world as quantifiable forces, but there are incongruities and rough places where they mesh, and that won't stand with either party. You are either Team Magic or Team Anti-Magic, and there is no inbetween on this one, except that there is, but that that makes you intolerant and a wuss to both sides. >>> **u/Nepene** [+3] (a day later) >>> >>> >Anti-Magic is a rejection of that ideal, and a focus on what is here, now, and the study of the natural physical world without the veil of magic. It's kind of become a study in the esoteric, as magic can make the physical laws of the universe it's bitch. There is a fear that if too much is studied, magic will lose it's power, and because magic is what the people demand of it, it's entirely possible that magic will suffer with further studying, possibly to the point of being able to be gamed and not being able to be easily undone. >>> >>> People presumably know that gravity pulls you down, and that using magic you can overcome gravity. People already know that there's a physical world and you can overcome that with magic. >>> >>> Here you are setting up a conflict where there should be none. Scientists explore the universe. They find new laws and affects that you can magic up, and find shortcuts to power like antimatter bombs. Magic alters things. It makes science easier and cheaper and can be studied directly to see what effects make magic stronger. >>> >>> They shouldn't have a conflict just because of poor communication. People do talk. They should have a genuine reason for actual conflict that, even if you locked them together in a room, wouldn't result in them becoming best of buddies. >>>> **u/None** [+1] (a day later) >>>> >>>> I'm kind of basing the idea of scientists and magicians in this world as an analogy to ideological civil war, where both magicians and scientists want to explore and push limits in their fields, but both want to shout at each other until they are proven right, their opponents are wrong, and their demonizing of one another is proven just. Lot of that going on in my corner of the Internet, and figured I'd explore it as an allegory. People are too damn invested in tearing each other apart, they fail to see the bad agents coming in, and using that conflict to summon a great two headed worm-demon that consumes the people's minds and physical planet. There is a conflict there, but a locked room would or wouldn't solve it for some people. Is that level of bad blood and bad thought sustainable to keep a stories conflict going if someone is directly aggravating it in an attempt to power a world eating Lovecraftian Nightmare, or should it still be a more justified tension? >>>>> **u/Nepene** [+3] (a day later) >>>>> >>>>> Yes, and real life ideological wars are about- >>>>> >>>>> Race. If you hate their skin colour then issues are hard to resolve. >>>>> >>>>> Land. If they live on land you want it's hard to resolve it. >>>>> >>>>> Oppression. If they have a history of killing your dudes then that causes resentment. >>>>> >>>>> People rarely have open war over pure ideas, and your people have no real incentive to have an actual war, and would have a massive advantage if they allied. >>>>> >>>>> Also, most militaries are very keen to find any weapon that works, and would likely fund both magic and science. >>>>> >>>>> As of now, they don't have a strong reason to fight. >>>>> >>>>> How about you step it up a notch? >>>>> >>>>> Scientists have active social issues with magic users, and actively work on ways to suppress them. There are a number of criminal elements they want to stop, and more powerful magic users are a dangerous threat. As such, they actively cause problems. >>>>> >>>>> Magicians magic is actively threatened by machinery. A well made piece of machinery is invested in magic by the creator and is resistant to disruption. Weaker magic users and disabled people want the wider introduction of such machinery to supplement their powers but more powerful users are worried this will disrupt some of their abilities and empower the wrong groups. >>>>> >>>>> So, science might be the equivalent of guns. An active threat to those in power which potentially gives them the ability to assassinate even highly powerful magic users with technological weapons. For the safety of mankind these dangerous terrorists have to be suppressed. >>>>> >>>>> Then a locked room wouldn't solve it. They have diametrically opposed goals (Weaken magic, strengthen magic, make strong mages untouchable except by the army, make anyone subject to justice). >>>>>> **u/None** [+1] (a day later) >>>>>> >>>>>> K. Will think about a specific incident that leads into a greater escalation. >>>>>>> **u/Nepene** [+1] (a day later) >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Yeah, and genuine problems that mean that allying could be very difficult even if they did have good communication. > **u/protagnostic** [+1] (8 days later) > > The premise doesn't quite make sense. The researchers know that perception can overwrite reality, and they're studying this with expectations that presumably differ from the norm, and they find some evidence that differs from what the masses would expect, and they don't even consider the idea that maybe their perceptions overwrote a local chunk of reality? > > When we have a world where belief can directly alter physical evidence, properly blinded experiments may become impossible. Even if only the experiment designer knows what's going on, and every participant is in the dark, the designer's expectations may be the only force left determining the outcome! > > Even if everyone is totally uncertain about the outcome of a particular experiment, that implies an underlying belief that there is a world which produces phenomena outside the mind's purview, which may not even be true in this setting. And if enough people believe that it IS true, does it become so? Does belief in an orderly reality automatically remove magic? >> **u/None** [+1] (8 days later) >> >> Yes to the last part, magic is weaker if there is something to explain the magic that people can grapple onto as an explanation, or more importantly, that people fear a loss of power through rationalization will make it so. >> >> I've been doing the brain tumble on the specifics of it though, and while I like the idea of what masses believe about magic will designate its behavior, the rewriting aspect seems like a whole lot of trouble to explore and write a cognisant narrative around. ---