## [D] 4chan's /co/ board discusses the irrationality of The Legend of Korra * Author: u/ToaKraka *https://i.imgur.com/OQGHleQ.png** * URL: http://i.imgur.com/cDmc3Tk.png * Score: 70 * Created: 2016-04-18T20:07:56 ### Post: [Link to content](http://i.imgur.com/cDmc3Tk.png) ### Comments: > **u/booljayj** [+46] (5 hours later) > > - Amon > - Speaks out against a society where one class has extreme power over another > - Is defeated when it turns out he's part of the powerful class, and therefore a hypocrite > - Korra never addresses his complaint, benders remain powerful > > - Unalaq > - Wants to bring back the balance that was disrupted when the first Avatar came into existence > - Is defeated when it turns out he wants 10,000 years of darkness to balance out the 10,000 years of light that has occurred > - Korra partially addresses his complaint, and removes the boundary between the spirit world and the physical world > > - Zaheer > - Same basic views as Unalaq, but views the existence of the avatar as unnatural and destructive > - Is defeated when he attempts to kill Korra, the main character, in order to enact his plans > - Korra does not and cannot address his complaints, but does seem to have a crisis of identity that leads to a better self awareness > - Kuvira > - Wants to restore the Earth Kingdom to the state it was in before the 100 year war > - Is defeated when it is revealed that she is willing to do so at any cost, no matter how personal or monstrous > - Korra is willing to let her work thus far remain (uniting almost all of the Earth Kingdom), as long as Kuvira herself stands trial for the crimes she committed to get to that point. > > As I see it, it's not as cut-and-dry as the poster on 4chan put it, but there is definitely a point to be made about how the villains are portrayed in the series. >> **u/scruiser** [+11] *CYOA* (6 hours later) >> >> > Korra never addresses his complaint, benders remain powerful >> >> Republic's city does get some kind of reform, we just don't know how it was before well enough to know if it really mattered (mentioned briefly in the last episode of season 1, also can be inferred from minor differences in republic city before and after end of season 1). The whole deal with having a president instead of a council was part of the reform... Not really sure how that was supposed to matter... I think Sokka was on the council in one of the flashbacks, so its not like non-benders couldn't be on the council, but if the council explicitly tried to represent members from all 4 nations, benders might have had an advantage in terms of getting elected/appointed to the council given how each nation is associated with an element. >> >> > Korra partially addresses his complaint, and removes the boundary between the spirit world and the physical world >> >> I think Korra did the best she could with this situation actually. Humans already had some issues adjusting with the canon introduction of spirits, anything to introduce even more spirits might have been even more troublesome. Also, the spirits aren't exactly helpful, see season 4 ending where they did nothing to help, even after living in Republic City for some time. >> >> > Zaheer >> >> Zaheer had zero plan beyond creating anarchy... He creates the problems that Kuvira tries to address. I like how the showed him completely surprised by the end result of his action. I think it made him a sympathetic but still villainous. >> >> > As I see it, it's not as cut-and-dry as the poster on 4chan put it, but there is definitely a point to be made about how the villains are portrayed in the series. >> >> Overall, I liked Legend of Korra's villains. Each was flawed, with good core ideas that they took to evil extremes. Korra definitely wasn't* as diplomatic as Aang, but she was able still able to learn from her enemies. Also, I think if she took Aang's super pacifistic diplomatic approach, she would have felt too much like a boring knockoff of Aang. >> >> *edit missed the n't >>> **u/None** [+3] (a day later) >>> >>> > Republic's city does get some kind of reform, we just don't know how it was before well enough to know if it really mattered (mentioned briefly in the last episode of season 1, also can be inferred from minor differences in republic city before and after end of season 1). The whole deal with having a president instead of a council was part of the reform... Not really sure how that was supposed to matter... I think Sokka was on the council in one of the flashbacks, so its not like non-benders couldn't be on the council, but if the council explicitly tried to represent members from all 4 nations, benders might have had an advantage in terms of getting elected/appointed to the council given how each nation is associated with an element. >>> > >>> >>> It also acknowledged Republic city as its own political entity, with legitimacy coming from the population, not a shaed entity of teh otehr nations with representation wildly out of step with population (the 5 airbenders get as many reps as teh Earth kingdom!?) its an old elites to masses transition, which partially ut not exactly mirror the bender /non-bender distinction >> **u/None** [+12] (6 hours later) >> >> > removes the boundary between the spirit world and the physical world >> >> Because this can't possibly end poorly. >> >> Love, the Eldar. >>> **u/None** [+3] (16 hours later) >>> >>> WRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY NOMNOMNOMNOMNOMNOMNOMNOMNOMNOMNOMNOMNOMNOMNOMNOMNOMNOMNOMNOMNOMNOMNOMNOMNOMNOMNOMNOMNOMNOMNOMNOM >>> >>> Rape, >>> >>> She Who Thirsts >> **u/None** [+6] (16 hours later) >> >> > Wants to bring back the balance that was disrupted when the first Avatar came into existence >> > >> > Is defeated when it turns out he wants 10,000 years of darkness to balance out the 10,000 years of light that has occurred >> >> I mean, that is kinda an invalid complaint from the point of view of almost everyone. >> **u/None** [+7] (6 hours later) >> >> [deleted] >>> **u/booljayj** [+22] (6 hours later) >>> >>> They moved from a council of elders to a presidential system, yes, but that doesn't really address the fact that Benders still hold a great deal of control over non-benders because of the lethal magic powers they were born with. The first president was a non-bender, but so were some members of the council (Sokka). >>> >>> I mean, look at the very first episode after the defeat of Amon. What are some of the first things we see? A pro-bending match, a police chase which was only resolved using bending, and then Korra using her new Airbending powers to win a race (during which she cheats by using the Avatar state). Nothing has really changed, benders are still the ones doing the powerful, important work and using their powers indiscriminately. The only non-bender who is able to compete with them is a certified super genius whacko and the rich girl who has access to the anti-bender technology. Normal people, the non-bending middle class, have almost no presence in the story. > **u/wtfbbc** [+35] (40 minutes later) > > Viewing 4chan in a tumblr layout always gives me a headache >> **u/Transfuturist** [+17] *Carthago delenda est.* (3 hours later) >> >> The tumblr layout does that. > **u/Sagebrysh** [+4] *Rank 7 Pragmatist* (2 days later) > > I thought a while back that what would have made for an amazing reveal at the end of the first season was that that one councilmember was wrong about his brother being Amon, the burnt face is real, and he can really take bending away by spirit bending, not just block them with bloodbending. > > Seeing Korra get tricked and punished for being too Gryfindor would have been pretty satisfying. > **u/None** [+5] (52 minutes later) > > Why are lot of stories irrational anyway? Don't they have editors? >> **u/alexanderwales** [+29] *Time flies like an arrow* (2 hours later) >> >> It's about trying to find balances. The problem with having a sympathetic villain is that it makes it difficult to find a satisfying resolution. In Legend of Korra, there's a natural segregation of society between benders and non-benders. Benders are always going to get better jobs than non-benders, which means that they're almost certainly going to be richer, and the upper echelons of society are almost always going to be benders. The non-benders have a legitimate grievance, and while there are potential solutions, none of them are really dramatically satisfying. It's not a problem that can just go away; it's always going to be there, even after a compromise is reached. >> >> To the larger point, most stories are about trying to make the reader experience something, and most readers are either willing to look past the irrational parts or just don't notice them in the first place. The stories are irrational because there are few penalties in place for that. >>> **u/Draconomial** [+6] *Sunshine Regiment* (5 hours later) >>> >>> So, point to MLP: FiM. >>> >>> A story where Korra publicly apologized to Amon and asked to join him in solving injustices. Even if he eventually betrayed her due to his character having an agenda beyond punitive action for benders and equality for non-benders. Peacemaking would have prevented a lot of collateral damage. >>> But LoK shows us in the first episode that Korra isn't that kind of person, even as a child, right? But doesn't that character also go through many changes that result in her becoming a different person? Actually I'm not sure. >>> Do you think Korra develops into a stronger character over the course of her adventures like Aang did, rather than just more experienced at being the person she is? >>>> **u/scruiser** [+7] *CYOA* (6 hours later) >>>> >>>> I don't think peacemaking would have worked with Amon. Amon was in it solely for power. Making peace and helpng non-benders find a better place in society would take away alot of Amon's followers, but Amon was still an OP bloodbender who would have caused problems anyway. >>>> >>>> > But doesn't that character also go through many changes that result in her becoming a different person? >>>> >>>> I think Korra has a more direct style to problem solving than Aang, even after both of their character developments... (hmm just noticed that Aang learned to get more directly confrontational, and Korra learned diplomatic ways of problem solving. Never noticed that symmetry in their arcs before.) >>>> >>>> > Do you think Korra develops into a stronger character over the course of her adventures like Aang did, rather than just more experienced at being the person she is? >>>> >>>> I think Korra has learned to make her way of doing things work for her. She also recovered from some really bad situations, similar to Aang, (nearly killed by lightning versus nearly killed by mercury poisoning), so I think she measures up to Aang pretty well. >>>>> **u/None** [+6] (16 hours later) >>>>> >>>>> >I don't think peacemaking would have worked with Amon. Amon was in it solely for power. >>>>> >>>>> Which is why Korra ended up as McCarthyist propaganda. >>>>>> **u/scruiser** [+3] *CYOA* (17 hours later) >>>>>> >>>>>> Oh... now I see some of where the 4chan complaint is coming from. Still, all of the other villains had genuine motives, although Unalaq was kind of crazy. >>>>> **u/Draconomial** [+5] *Sunshine Regiment* (16 hours later) >>>>> >>>>> > I don't think peacemaking would have worked with Amon. Amon was in it solely for power. >>>>> >>>>> I pointed out that Amon had his own agenda, and suggested that her apology be *public*. Amon successfully vilified Korra in the eyes of non-benders, and things snowballed from there. >>>> **u/None** [+3] (16 hours later) >>>> >>>> > So, point to MLP: FiM. >>>> >>>> I don't get what that has to do with Korra. Also, their mage-class are *literal aristocracy*. >>>>> **u/Draconomial** [+3] *Sunshine Regiment* (16 hours later) >>>>> >>>>> Point to MLP on *rational conflict resolution*. >>>>>> **u/None** [+4] (17 hours later) >>>>>> >>>>>> You mean, "conflicts are solved by talking to local wildlife"? >>>>>>> **u/callmebrotherg** [+9] *now posting as /u/callmesalticidae* (21 hours later) >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Are you trying to suggest that international conflicts shouldn't be resolved through mediation by bears and ravens? >>>>>>>> **u/Subrosian_Smithy** [+4] *Nudist Beach* (22 hours later) >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> It can't possibly turn out worse than everything else we've tried! >>>>>>>>> **u/callmebrotherg** [+2] *now posting as /u/callmesalticidae* (22 hours later) >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Sad but true. >:P >>>>>>> **u/Draconomial** [+1] *Sunshine Regiment* (2 days later) >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Actually I think the Avatar series succeeds pretty well with that strategy. >>>>>>>> **u/None** [+1] (2 days later) >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Oy gevalt. >>> **u/None** [+1] (a day later) >>> >>> One of the things I actually liked about LoK was how it showed problems not having easy fixes, and changes having consequences >>> >>> E.g. the earth kingdom from the previous series is still a corrupt oligarchy, despite Aangs best efforts, Or in reference to teh OP, none of the problems were magically fixed, they wee ameiorated with messy compromises. >> **u/blazinghand** [+7] *Chaos Undivided* (7 hours later) >> >> People don't always want rational stories. Possibly my all-time favorite Anime, JoJo's Bizarre Adventure (Seasons 1 and 2) is about as far from rational as you can get. It doesn't try to have sensible self-consistent worldbuilding or super well-motivated characters with legitimate ideological goals, but it doesn't need those things to be great. There's nothing about, say, [grenade trick](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6BgqFYrD8UM) that is rational, but it's still completely amazing. The focus on form and emotive power over any sort of rationality makes a season finale like [this](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i1YcJkYBAxQ) possible. If you made a rational version of JJBA, it would be interesting, but I would like it in a completely different (and probably lesser) way than I like the original. >> >> This does not mean that rational stories are a bad idea. JJBA does the right thing, and, finding it cannot be rational, abandons the idea entirely and does not draw your attention to it. The villains aren't people agitating for social change. If they are, you should go whole-hog with it and write a good story about it, including having reasonable motivations and a satisfying end that is also satisfying to we who understand those motivations. Make it happen, or don't. >> **u/None** [+8] (a day later) >> >> Why are a lot of paintings unrealistic anyway? Don't they have cameras? >> >> Like painting, story-telling is a rich tradition - rational and rationalist fiction is one corner of that, but at its core, a story is a program to hack your brain, and that means there are some stories based on symbolism, some stories based on emotional arcs, some stories based on bringing moments of pure awesome to the fore. >> >> Recontextualized, you could ask the same question of sci-fi and fantasy in general - why do these stories include such unrealistic elements? >> >> The answer, generally, is that if you're asking that then you're missing the point. >> **u/DaWaffledude** [+10] (an hour later) >> >> Time pressure would be a big reason, I imagine. Having to choose between a rational ending and an emotionally/thematically satisfying one would be another. >> **u/TK17Studios** [+1] *Author of r!Animorphs: The Reckoning* (2 days later) >> >> Some things are meant to land in the head, some in the heart, and some in the body. Those that manage to move all three equally are exceptionally rare. ---