## [RT][HF] A Practical Guide to Evil: Book 4: Chapter 26: Plunge

* Author: u/Yes_This_Is_God *
* URL: https://practicalguidetoevil.wordpress.com/2018/07/04/chapter-26-plunge/
* Score: 88

* Created: 2018-07-04T04:12:21

### Post:

[Link to content](https://practicalguidetoevil.wordpress.com/2018/07/04/chapter-26-plunge/)

### Comments:

> **u/cyberdsaiyan** [+55]  (33 minutes later)
> 
> This is it isn't it? We just witnessed the *Pivot* in the story of Calernia...

> **u/Ardvarkeating101** [+37]  *Father of Learning* (6 minutes later)
> 
> Whelp, there goes the last shred of sympathy Good has in this story.
> 
> All hail the Dead Royal Couple!

>> **u/None** [+12]  (7 hours later)
>> 
>> I had so much hope in the pilgrim but now is all gone, I can see his motivation but like Catherine said, it not enoug.

>> **u/notagiantdolphin** [+9]  (5 hours later)
>> 
>> What's the bet the Pilgrim's self-promised payment for his 'sins' comes earlier than he expected?
>> 
>> Heaven puts their foot on the scales this time, the Dead King insists on the Pilgrim as the binding of the alliance. Pilgrim suffers, story becomes 'wicked bargain struck over the lives of the good and great'.

>> **u/akaltyn** [+14]  (4 hours later)
>> 
>> > there goes the last shred of sympathy Good has in this story
>> 
>> I don't really agree, if they are right that a victory is needed to keep the alliance together and the alliance is necessary to stop the perennial wars between the member nations then by fighting Callow now they save more lives in the long run

>>> **u/None** [+22]  (4 hours later)
>>> 
>>> [deleted]

>>>> **u/akaltyn** [+21]  (5 hours later)
>>>> 
>>>> Cordelia believes that without a victory in Callow the princes and other allies will see her as weak and the coalition will collapse. And allowing a villain to remain in power in exchange for promises of good behavior isnt going to satisfy them.  Unless Cat can give her some other way to bind the alliance together she doesn't have a choice
>>>> 
>>>> edit: remember that even if cordelia trusts her to keep her word that doesnt mean the others will. From their point of view she would be making peace with a literal embodiment of teh ontological concept of evil, and a worshipper of the dark gods, who has just slaughtered their armies. Imagine if the nazis offering peace in 1943 in exchange for hitler promising to resign in a few years

>>>>> **u/PrettyDecentSort** [+16]  (12 hours later)
>>>>> 
>>>>> It's easy to see how the realpolitik works.
>>>>> 
>>>>> It's much harder to see how the side which practices such realpolitik can call itself "good", or claim any moral high ground against the people it's willing to murder for convenience.

>>>>> **u/None** [+5]  (13 hours later)
>>>>> 
>>>>> [deleted]

>>>>>> **u/Nic_Cage_DM** [+3]  (a day later)
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> >I just don't see how removing Cat from power, even offset by a few years, and tearing down the Tower wouldn't accomplish that
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Noone trusts that Cat will follow through with stepping down in 5 years.

>>>>> **u/CouteauBleu** [+1]  *We are the Empire.* (18 hours later)
>>>>> 
>>>>> That's a bad analogy. Cat would be closer to Lenin or Che Guevara.

>>>> **u/TideofKhatanga** [+12]  (5 hours later)
>>>> 
>>>> Allying with Callow costs the lives of thousands, on the long term. The alliance needs a decisive victory to be cemented as useful, otherwise it will be discarded as a useless treaty and the Good nations are back to infighting forever. Bartering a compromise with this generation's most noteworthy Villain is pretty damn far from a decisive victory.
>>>> 
>>>> Simply put, the goal of the Tenth Crusade is to utterly and completely annihilate Evil everywhere east of Procer, using their corpses as the foundation of a Good powerblock that can win against Keter. Breaking the Woe and everything they've built is as important as bringing down the Tower, the crusaders won't settle for one at the price of the other.
>>>> 
>>>> Catherine can be as reasonable as she wants, nothing she's willing to offer will satisfy the other side.

>>>>> **u/None** [+3]  (13 hours later)
>>>>> 
>>>>> [deleted]

>>>>>> **u/PrettyDecentSort** [+6]  (13 hours later)
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> > then it's not a good Alliance
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Of course it's a Good Alliance, it says so right on the label.

>> **u/None** [-2]  (an hour later)
>> 
>> Maybe I’m placing too much on this arbitrary label, but Cat is definitally not qualified to rule a country, and accepting her peoce at the cost of the collapse of the grand alliance would be a horrible deal for them. Cat can say whatever she likes about pushing an inch too far, but her demands are way over that line themselves; the only reason it doesnt look that way is because she’s successfully shifted the overton window to an enourmous degree.

>>> **u/MutantMannequin** [+60]  (4 hours later)
>>> 
>>> I would note that no one is qualified to rule a country--good governance requires infrastructure and administration, and is not the job of an individual. You're right that Cat isn't an ideal head of state, but fortunately she's also *intimately aware of that*, and eager to pass on the reins. *Un*fortunately, there are several obstacles to a peaceful succession:
>>> 
>>> * Callow's population is mostly poor and uneducated. Cat seems to have their tentative approval for the moment, but they're likely to rebel against any significant upset. A successor must not only be competent, but recognizable and popular.
>>> * Cat is intent on decentralizing power to prevent its abuse. To that end, she must either find a competent, publicly acceptable successor who shares her vision, or implement her reforms prior to her abdication.
>>> * Most of the candidates competent enough to establish a functional administration come from aristocracy, intent on preserving the feudal power structure of Callow. Her only other pool of educated candidates is her military, which is currently *very* occupied with the nation's defense, and also unacceptably foreign to the average Callowan citizen.
>>> * Callow is in an open war with its western neighbor, Procer, and in a cold war with its eastern neighbor, Praes. Since the end goal is Callowan independence, a viable successor must be capable of negotiating peace or otherwise leading the nation in war, and must not become a puppet under foreign pressure.
>>> * The most educated and experienced members of Callow's current military are from Praes. While they have demonstrated loyalty to Cat, they may feel conflicted about open war with their homeland. That feeling would be exacerbated if their figurehead were removed. Orcs and goblins, in particular, would feel concern over their status in Callow, in the face of lingering Callowan racism. Any significant upset in the core of the Army of Callow in its current state would cripple it.
>>> 
>>> Now let's discuss Cat's "terms for peace". It's important to remember that she's not waging a war to achieve her goals--she's fighting against a hostile foreign power intent on expanding into her nation, so far without taking any military action outside Callowan borders. Her only terms are that Procer *stops invading* and pays war reparations, but, as we're privy to her thoughts, we also know she *doesn't even expect the reparations*. Not only that, she's offering to *help* this currently hostile power with their primary stated goal of "eliminate the potential for more evil superweapons". Cat's ultimate goal of implementing the Liesse Accords isn't even at play here.
>>> 
>>> Granted, it would be bad for the members of the Grand Alliance if it collapsed. Why is that even a concern, though? Peace with Callow could only spare lives and free the Alliance's forces to deal with Praes. Cat's terms go beyond, offering to bolster their armies with her own and transport them at supernatural speeds. It seems like they only stand to benefit from accepting her terms. No, the Alliance is at risk entirely because the First Prince of Procer is the linchpin of the entire affair, and Cordelia's rule is too fragile to survive Proceran unrest after a failed attempt to expand into Callow. The hypocrisy is telling, considering Cordelia rebuffed Cat's peace by criticizing *Cat's* ability to rule. It's also important to note that should Procer successfully expand into Callow, the Grand Alliance would *still* collapse, and it would *still* be Procer's fault, because the Dominion of Levant is likely to bail the moment Procer starts expanding again.
>>> 
>>> [I've created a visual aid.](https://imgur.com/gallery/7Ey1vk8)

>>>> **u/akaltyn** [+13]  (6 hours later)
>>>> 
>>>> I love your argument and image.
>>>> 
>>>> Also, part of how Catherine secures her power/legitimacy is b being a Named who stole power from an Angel and the Fae. Any successor isn't going to have that

>>>>> **u/agree-with-you** [+3]  (6 hours later)
>>>>> 
>>>>> I love you both

>>> **u/ricree** [+25]  (an hour later)
>>> 
>>> So far as I can tell, she offered up every single war aim the crusade has with respect to Callow, except for the part where it gets carved up and exploited by a bunch of foreign nobles.

>>>> **u/None** [+21]  (an hour later)
>>>> 
>>>> [deleted]

>>>>> **u/LordSwedish** [+11]  *Q Continuum* (10 hours later)
>>>>> 
>>>>> Basically, Cordelia is arrogant and thinks she can pull off her plan without losing all her plans for the future so she ignores the high chance of peace that risks her plans for the future. Pilgrim can override that decision and stop the bloodshed immediately, but that would definitely destroy Cordelias rule.
>>>>> 
>>>>> It's a mix of arrogance, sunk cost fallacy, and the fact that Catherine is actually an abomination empowered by otherworldly forces and the powers of hell.

>>> **u/akaltyn** [+4]  (4 hours later)
>>> 
>>> > but Cat is definitally not qualified to rule a country
>>> 
>>> She's not the best, but there aren't any other candidates at the moment who could prevent even more conflict. Thats why she wants time to choose a sucessor

> **u/RynnisOne** [+31]  (31 minutes later)
> 
> I knew they'd have to go to Keter, because Story.
> 
> That being said, this part just utterly rubs your nose in how downright despicable Good is in that world.
> 
> The First Prince *could* have told Cat the "plan", but didn't.  I like how the Pilgrim was up front about it.  Knowing that, you can read the first half again and see why she was totally unwilling to make any sort of compromise at all.  If it didn't fit her plan exactly, she wasn't going to let it happen.
> 
> "Good" is an absolute **The Ends Justify The Means** faction.  Tens of thousands die, all so we can get the goal we want?  No problem--especially if its innocent people in another place and not ours.  What, that country used to be Good until we failed em?  No worries, they aren't now, feel free to murder them in heaps until we force them to swtich back.  Disgusting.
> 
> I hope she manages to make a deal with the Dead King that lets him wreak havoc on their lands, to show them what it's like when someone *else* is setting the terms.  And I hope Black gets to do a lot of wreaking, too, before he has to fall back.

>> **u/signspace13** [+29]  (9 hours later)
>> 
>> In the prologue of book 1 it gave us the full spiel of how the gods having a disagreement, one side believing that mortals should be **guided** to greatness, the other believing they should be **ruled** directly.
>> 
>> Now in the context of our morality the latter would be Evil, as it is the definition of tyranny, right? Yes. But not in Calernia, the ones that wanted to rule became the *Good* gods (gods above) and imposed direct and absolute morality on mortals. That makes the ones who believed they should be guided as the *Evil* gods (gods below), their current nature and form is likely not what they started out as, they became as they are as direct opposition to the gods above.
>> 
>> This gives us a very different perspective to look at this world, all the evil gods want from their Names is to make someone **more** of what they already are, Cat's initial squire aspects are a perfect example, **Learn, Struggle, Seek,** these things are what she already was, just more. 
>> 
>> On the flip side the gods above make someone into what they want them to be, the Lone swordsman is a perfect example of this, they showed up to him, told him he was terrible and that he needed to do what they say to make anything better, because he is of course never going to makeup for his *sins* alone, his aspects were **Rise, Swing, Triumph,** these have nothing to do with who he was, they were commands branded to his soul to control him, and the more he leaned into them, accepting his Role (and their control) the more powerful he would be.
>> 
>> This is how I have come to understand the morality of the forces at play in this series, I'm honestly not experienced or diefic enough to really say whether either of these ways is good or evil, but that is how I see them being portrayed so far.

>>> **u/techgorilla** [+9]  (20 hours later)
>>> 
>>> I think you are exactly correct.
>>> 
>>> I was actually playing with the idea that the Gods Above and Below are Both the "Rule over them" Gods. Mostly because Demons and the hells, that does not sound like the Gods Below are interested in guidance. 
>>> 
>>> I was thinking that maybe the Bet has already been mostly settled with the Rule Gods winning and forcing the current stalemate on the world. And the Guidance Gods are mostly the ones that work in the shadows just giving neutral names and maybe influencing betterment in some way.
>>> 
>>> Maybe the bet was settled the other way, with the Guidance Gods winning and Calernia is the last stronghold of the Rule Gods. We know that Calernia is a very small part of the world. What if the kingdom ruled by a Hero and Villain is already part of the Guidance Gods. Same with the Country where Elves and Humans live together. Maybe the Gnomes as well. Maybe the gnomes where the first to get out of the Rule Gods game. They got really advanced technologically and they only deliver red letters on Calernia. Since Calernia is the only place that still listens to the Rule Gods maybe the gnomes want to make sure that those gods don't get their hands on stuff like bio weapons or nukes.
>>> 
>>> I think that second part is mostly wrong because of the Bard. She seemed to talk about the Elf/Human Country with fondness. And she also does not seem to talk about any of those other places as if they were lost to the gods above. Also she seems to think that there is a very big difference between the Gods above and Below. She might just be a blind servant of the gods, just doing what she is told. But she seems to me like she knows exactly what is happening, so i doubt the gods above and below are working together and she doesn't know.

>> **u/Weebcluse** [+28]  (2 hours later)
>> 
>> I think this chapter made it clear the Pilgrim and Cordelia are "practical Good" types. 
>> 
>> When Cat starts a war in Callow to gain power to get in a position to protect Callow, she gets labeled a warlord and gets shit on for being Evil. 
>> 
>> When the First Prince starts a war in Callow to solidify her position and to get in position to protect half of Calernia, she gets the thumb up from the heavens and has a great reputation because she is Good.
>> 
>> Yeah, I can see why Cat is pissed.

>> **u/akaltyn** [+10]  (4 hours later)
>> 
>> > "Good" is an absolute The Ends Justify The Means faction.
>> 
>> Depends on the character. Some of the heroes we've seen are old style deontologist/noble/stupid good. Pilgrim and Cordelia have lasted longer and are more pragmatic. Its the same as for Evil, there are cackling mad villains and calm methodical one like Black

>>> **u/None** [+5]  (4 hours later)
>>> 
>>> [deleted]

>>>> **u/LordSwedish** [+6]  *Q Continuum* (10 hours later)
>>>> 
>>>> Their goals aren't to prevent people from dying, that would be "stupid good", letting the alliance fall apart and go back to the status quo where good fights back evil and then goes back to fighting each other. A permanent alliance would mean a unified front against Keter and the rats.
>>>> 
>>>> The "practical" part comes from them skipping the fanatical good part to instead fulfil their dreams of a weakened evil and an alliance of good nations that won't declare war on each other. Just like how Black and Malicia skipped the fanatical evil part to instead fulfil their dreams.

>> **u/serge_cell** [+1]  (a day later)
>> 
>> My headcanon is that there is no Good Gods in PGtE world. There are two competing factions of Evil Gods. Or may be even one faction intent on generating most dramatic stories.

> **u/akaltyn** [+22]  (4 hours later)
> 
> What makes this discussion so beautifully tragic is that both sides really are tryin to do what is best from their position. 
> 
> For Cordelia and Pilgrim, the preservation of the alliance is the most important thing by a wide margin. Ending the constant wars between the nations of calernia is worth a huge amount, saving lives, promoting stability, etc. They, pretty reasonably, believe that if Cordelia is seen to lose this early then it all collapses, wars resume, more people die. So they need to either have Cat make a big enouh concession they can spin it as victory, or continue the war. To unite their people they need this conflict, and if that means Callow has to burn then so be it. 
> 
> For Catherine she won't allow he nation to burn, even if its for the greater good. She can't abdicate or surrender because she, quite reasonably, thinks Callow would fall apart the moment she does. Even if it was only symbolic her people would not accept becoming vassals of procer. So concession is impossible. 
> 
> So both sides will continue to play rationally and everyone will lose.

>> **u/cyberdsaiyan** [+11]  (5 hours later)
>> 
>> The problem is that the First Prince's hold on power is tenuous at best. She keeps a lot of other princes together because she has promised them that they could have a piece of Callow to rule after the war. Which is why she is uncompromising in the removal of Catherine as queen. Not in 10 years, not even in 5, *now*. Or else her promises to the other princes can't be fulfilled, and they will have 5 years of time to fester a rebellion.

> **u/CouteauBleu** [+21]  *We are the Empire.* (4 hours later)
> 
> > It’d actually been Black that sent us a horrifyingly thorough transcript, but I saw no need to disabuse her of the assumption.
> 
> Amadeus is the best.
> 
> > “You are a warlord, Catherine Foundling,” she said, pronunciation excruciatingly precise. “Your reign was built on catastrophe and butchery, and has been maintained by the same. You are not the Queen of Callow, or even the Queen in Callow. The only claim for rule you have is that of steel, and with every passing month that claim weakens. You believe I am being undiplomatic, evidently.”
> 
> > “You are being coerced,” the First Prince frankly replied. “That is the very reason we are having this conversation.”
> 
> > “Six months ago,” she said softly, “you might have said the same. And yet here we are.”
> 
> Princes’ Graveyard, Princes’ Graveyard, Princes’ Graveyard, Princes’ Graveyard...

>> **u/signspace13** [+13]  (9 hours later)
>> 
>> My biggest problem with Hasenbach is how *hypocritical* that monologue is, she says that the only claim that Cat has to royalty is steel, when she herself need to use the superior force of arms and military discipline of her native princepate to quell the other before they let her rule them. Does she think that because she is a noble them she has more right to be a ruler than Cat, **FUCK HER** that is the most base form of entitlement and is the *exact* same problem that the truebloods had in Praes, just with less Demon summoning, god I hate her after that speech, which is fantastic, cause I always loved her as a counterpoint to Malicia. 
>> 
>> She is going to get a ride awakening from Cat though, if Malicia thinks she is losing, she will sit back and think about her next move, Cat will just flip the game board and slug you in the face, she knows she isn't as clever, so she plays to her strengths, hoping that in the end at least her intentions are purer that the other.

>> **u/akaltyn** [+10]  (4 hours later)
>> 
>> > “Your reign was built on catastrophe and butchery, and has been maintained by the same. You are not the Queen of Callow, or even the Queen in Callow. The only claim for rule you have is that of steel, and with every passing month that claim weakens. Y
>> 
>> What's issing from this is what Cordelia thinks a real legitimate Queen would be. She doesn't seem the sort of actually believe in divine rights of princes and inherited rule, at least not at a deep level. She was quite happy to bind together Procer with blood and steel, so what makes this any different?

>> **u/None** [+1]  (7 hours later)
>> 
>> [deleted]

>>> **u/panchoadrenalina** [+11]  (9 hours later)
>>> 
>>> in the quotes on top of each chapter there are Juniper's Comentaries on the war iirc. She talked about Cat's two greatest battles, the recent Battle of the Camps and The Princes Graveyard that it yet to pass.

> **u/signspace13** [+20]  (2 hours later)
> 
> *shivers and deep exhalations* that chapter had me on edge the whole time, watching Cat plead for the sovereignty of her people was agonizing, and Hasenbach's 'holier than thou' bullshit was nonsense, the fact that Catherine has a Villain Name at all can currently be called into question, and it isn't that the alliance would dissolve if Callow was ruled by a Villain, it's that it will dissolve if Hasenbach can't bribe it's members with the spoils of Callow after the war.
> 
> Other than that it's just so *sad* Catherine is really a very innocent person, all of these people determined to see her as the villain and force her into a situation where she will either die or lose everything she cares for is the only thing that drives her to further evil, and watching these people do that is tragic. Cat has given up almost any semblance of long term contentment for her goals, she will *always* hate herself for the things she has done and the mistakes she has made, while the Good side asshats like Hasenbacg can absolve them selves of guilt simply by saying "the gods wanted it and it was for the greater good, woe is me for this sacrifice I must make of my soul, and thanks for your stuff and land by the way."

>> **u/CeruleanTresses** [+6]  (11 hours later)
>> 
>> I don't think I would call Catherine innocent in any sense. She's justifiably cynical and she's killed a lot of people. Otherwise, I agree with you. I'm generally willing to extend the benefit of the doubt to "greater good" arguments, but they often descend into hypocrisy. It always makes me think of [this comic panel,](https://i.gyazo.com/76cc2e7347679bc986e057bd0ef5bacd.png) which parodies the concept pretty mercilessly.

>>> **u/CouteauBleu** [+4]  *We are the Empire.* (11 hours later)
>>> 
>>> I think "killed a lot of people" is kind of a misleading label of what she did. Almost all the people she killed were foreign invaders, Fae, criminals, war criminals, or some combination therein of, and she offered most of them a chance to surrender.
>>> 
>>> She's pretty close to innocent, compared to people like Black or Cordelia, who did far more brutal acts for more tenuous reasons.

>>>> **u/CeruleanTresses** [+6]  (17 hours later)
>>>> 
>>>> I just don't think "innocent" is the right term. You can have noble goals without being "innocent," you can be a decent person without being "innocent," you can opt for the lesser evil without being "innocent." 
>>>> 
>>>> I generally think of an innocent as either someone who is naive about the shittier aspects of other people/the world, or as someone who genuinely has no blood on their hands. If you give someone a chance to surrender and then kill them when they refuse, then you may be justified, but that's not the same as being innocent. There are almost no important characters in this story that I would consider innocent.
>>>> 
>>>> I mean, she might be innocent compared to *Black,* but that's setting an unreasonably low bar. There are a ton of nameless civilians in this world who haven't killed anyone or had anyone killed, and probably plenty who still wouldn't if they had the power. If we're establishing relative innocence tiers, it's no more arbitrary to compare Catherine to some warm-hearted farmgirl who's friends with the songbirds than it is to compare her to Black.

>>>> **u/signspace13** [+2]  (12 hours later)
>>>> 
>>>> Exactly, she has gone out of her way to not *personally* kill anyone that she doesn't think would have deserved it, and most of her killing is done on the battlefield, which is a morally grey area even in our world.
>>>> 
>>>> The reason I call her innocent is because she is still fighting towards her noble goals, she still believes she can win, I don't think she is *wrong*, just innocent, each time she thinks that this will be just one step closer without realising that she will be fighting forever if what she wants is peace in Callow, because the story seems to have decided it's time for callow to die, and I don't think it will ever stop trying to kill it.

> **u/AurelianoTampa** [+20]  (7 hours later)
> 
> A random smattering of thoughts:
> 
> > “It has not gone unnoticed,” Hasenbach conceded, to my surprise. “You must understand, however, that you are a **villain**. Deception is the trade of your kind."  
> >  
> > “You are being deliberately obtuse,” Hasenbach said. “I have already informed you that a **villain** ruling Callow is not an acceptable outcome for this crusade.”  
> 
> "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means."
> 
> Cat still thinks of herself as a villain. Hasenbach and GP do as well. But villain is the opposite of hero when it comes to *Names*. Cat has barely the tatters of a Name (if she even has that any more), and Squire was a Name that could go either way. She brings up her willingness to lean into redemption with GP, but why doesn't she with Hasenbach? Rather than abdication, why not have called Hasenbach's bluff? 
> 
> "Fine. I renounce the Gods Below, and will pledge Callow to uphold Good. I will even work with GP to change my Name, if rejecting my alignment to Evil isn't enough to do so." 
> 
> End result: Callow is no longer led by a villain, has turned to Good, and can become a member of the Grand Alliance.
> 
> It sounds ridiculously oversimplified, but I don't see how Hasenbach could do anything but accept it. If she refuses to do so, then Cat can break the Crusade by pointing out that it is now attacking a Good country which has an honest intention to join up to fight Evil. Bring in Hanno to pass judgment (or y'know, maybe someone a little less chance-based) on her sincerity. Even if GP refused to speak up on Cat's behalf, the Gods Above would overrule him. And what does that do to the Crusade? It's immediately split - the common levies buying into the narrative of a just and Good Crusade would see that it's just political machinations and revolt; the arriving forces of the Levant would find themselves in the middle of a Procer just revealed to only be interested in expansionism (which is a historical wedge between the two); and the heroes would scatter, either staying with GP to support Procer despite its deception, joining Hanno (and potentially Saint - Gods, THAT would be a hilarious turn around) to defend Good Callow against the corrupt Princes of Procer, or likely just washing their hands of everything and going home like I bet Witch of the Wilds would do. 
> 
> Obviously there are a lot of unknowns and risks to this, of course:
> 
> * The first that comes to mind is whether Cat can even change her alignment; if redemption is even possible for her. She might not have (much of) a Name right now, but she's the Queen of Winter. If Creation is the 2.0 version of Arcadia, and Evil is the 2.0 version of Winter, is Cat stuck in her alignment no matter what? Or could you have a Queen of Winter who is also a Hero? It sounds like an inherent contradiction, but [I swear I've seen stories like that...](https://lumiere-a.akamaihd.net/v1/images/open-uri20160812-3094-11p2kds_940c7497.jpeg?region=0%2C0%2C1024%2C320)
> * Next up is what the practical (heh) effect of this would be on Cat herself. As the chapter points out from the start, the Gods Above demand obedience. By saving Callow for now, would Cat necessarily bind it to the existing narrative of an eternal battle of Good versus Evil, exactly what Black has been trying to break for decades? Is there any way that Good can be practical too and work on breaking the meta game? My gut says no... but if Cat truly believed that, why would she even float the redemption idea to GP? She wouldn't do so if she truly believed it would screw Callow later. So either she's not actually being honest with GP (which is unlikely, since he can tell truth from lies), or she thinks she can wiggle out of the obedience clause. 
> * Then there's the Woe. This actually isn't as big an issue as you might first think. Archer and Thief are already grey Names. Adjutant is, I believe, a new Name and doesn't seem intrinsically Evil except for it only coming into being around other villains. The toughest one is Hierophant, because "vivisector of miracles" sounds like something the Gods Above might frown upon... but it's a priestly Name, and I don't necessarily think thirst for knowledge needs to be Evil. As for the people behind the Names, again Masego is likely the toughest nut to crack, as making an alignment change means going against his father and uncle. But the others? Vivienne would be all for the idea, Indrani would probably grouse and moan but go along with it, and Hakram would support Cat. I think Masego could be persuaded if it came down to it.
> * And then there are the obvious political ramifications. Even if Cat is honest and changes her alignment, Callow hosts a bunch of orcs, a nest of goblins, and thousands of Praesi former-Legion troops. I could see the change sparking a revolt among the Praesi troops, as well as outrage among the Grand Alliance. Orcs I think can be, at best, neutral... though there are obviously some examples of [Good orcs](http://wowwiki.wikia.com/wiki/Thrall). Goblins are a MUCH harder sell, as greed, hunger, and violence are bred into the species and they actively use a demon to make their munitions. I think that, short of maybe having Pickler start a neutral nest (as much as possible), goblins might have no place in a Good Callow :-(
> 
> Whew. Ok, so there's my crazy idea for what Cat could have - and probably should have - brought up. EE, want to write another Fourfold Crossing alternate path? 
> 
> Onto other thoughts:
> 
> > “You are a warlord, Catherine Foundling,” she said, pronunciation excruciatingly precise. “Your reign was built on catastrophe and butchery, and has been maintained by the same. 
> 
> I know Cat got upset by Hasenbach's insults, but this part right here is *absolutely correct*. Cat's own orcish troops literally called her "warlord." But even more ridiculous is the rest of her diatribe, which literally describes her own rule as well. She too built her reign on butchery and is even engaging in it now! I feel like this is one of those cases of a person screaming into a mirror "I'm nothing like you!" Ugh, Hasenbach is the worst.
> 
> > “Appeals to emotion,” she said, not unkindly, “are the last resort of one without argument.” 
> 
> "... have you *met* the Grey Pilgrim? The guy does nothing but use appeals to emotion. Well, that and BS divine powers."
> 
> >“You’re trying to shove redemption down my throat, and don’t bother denying it. Fine. I’ll fucking lean in, even if it’ll probably get me killed. Just *act*. I’ll kiss the hem, quote the Book. All you need to speak up and thousands don’t have to die.”  
> >  
> >“It would smother in the crib,” the Grey Pilgrim said sadly, “what is perhaps the last chance for peace in our time.”
> 
> If this wasn't a death flag for GP, it should have been. Not because he's wrong - pragmatically he isn't - but because when one of the highest champions of Good spurns the honest opportunity to redeem one of the most infamous villains of the age, he's acting like a villain, not a hero. This should be a death flag because acting against your Role weakens your powers (like Cat faced books ago).

>> **u/werafdsaew** [+8]  (15 hours later)
>> 
>> Yep GP really fucked up by rejecting the offer for redemption.  Does he think fate would give him two more chances?  And isn't redeeming the Black Queen the entire reason why he's here right now?

>>> **u/Nic_Cage_DM** [+4]  (a day later)
>>> 
>>> GP is twisty as fuck, theres almost certainly something else going on there. I wonder what the Saint is up to, we haven't seen her since the truce was called on the battlefield.

> **u/TideofKhatanga** [+17]  (2 hours later)
> 
> You know, this is were Catherine's enemies are deeply lucky that they're dealing with Catherine. Someone who's devotion to the well-being of Callow is almost litterally enshrined in ice. Someone who cannot, will not, deviate from that single objective even though the means to get there shift with time.
> 
> Because those two conversations? In most stories, that's the moment where the villain that want to be better gets a door slammed on her fingers once too many and scream to the Heavens that, if they can't allow her to be good, then let her be Evil.
> 
> Edit: that said, the part when Catherine's unflinching goal is a boon to Good is incorrect. We're reaching the point where Cat is ready to commit true atrocities if that's the best way to protect Callow. And since the plot seems intent on denying her every better option...

>> **u/akaltyn** [+22]  (4 hours later)
>> 
>> Cat is pretty deep into the fae mode of Blue and Orange morality now I think. She's hardwired into herself the imperative to protect Callow above all else, even if that means burnign the world. (insert unfriendly AI comparison here)

>> **u/SkoomaDentist** [+7]  (3 hours later)
>> 
>> Yes. Her Good opponents fail to understand the implications of her being part-fae now and how that pretty much disallows her to deviate from her path of protecting Callow at _any_ cost.

>>> **u/HeWhoBringsDust** [+4]  (22 hours later)
>>> 
>>> She is a Queen and cannot abandon her Kingdom. Like the Queens before her, this is her story and it is written in Ice and Goblinfire

> **u/ForgottenToupee** [+13]  (26 minutes later)
> 
> That... that was satisfying as hell.

>> **u/LordGoldenroot** [+7]  (47 minutes later)
>> 
>> Really? I thought it was incredibly frustrating.

>>> **u/ForgottenToupee** [+27]  (49 minutes later)
>>> 
>>> Maybe satisfying wasn't the right word. But its like I can feel the hammer being dropped in the next part of this book, and it feels like this is where it *actually* starts.

>>>> **u/Mountebank** [+19]  (an hour later)
>>>> 
>>>> Yeah, because it seems that Cat has finally realized that she can't make peace and coexist with the other side since they won't honor any sort of deal with her at all, so she's now free to go all out. She probably can't be blatantly destructive like with Bonfire since that would attract too much negative attention, but she has shifted from "bloody Cordelia's nose so that they can negotiate as equals" to "destroy and/or unseat Cordelia and maybe install a puppet or just let Procer tear itself apart in civil war".

> **u/Taborask** [+10]  (3 hours later)
> 
> "I can't believe that didn't work!" -literally nobody

> **u/IBSC2** [+9]  (22 seconds later)
> 
> God I'm so excited

> **u/eaglejarl** [+6]  (7 hours later)
> 
> I do find myself wondering why she's going with the Dead King instead of with Bonfire. The only reason she didn't go Bonfire originally was because it would render her a pariah, but alliance with the Dead King will do at least as much or worse. 
> 
> Were it me, I'd go one step beyond Bonfire. Thief can apparently hold as much as she likes in her pocket dimension. Two Named on a flying horse move way faster than an army. Cat loads Thief up with every scrap of goblinfire they have and gates into Procer. Fly over a city, drop enough goblinfire to burn it to the ground, drop some leaflets that say "This is happening because Cordelia refused to accept my help in waging war against Praes and refused to let me renounce Evil and become a member of Procer."  Gate to the next city, repeat.  
> 
> I get that Procer is big, but how many of their major production center can they afford to lose? How many of their people can they lose? 
> 
> And, of course, you need to tell the Proceran levies back in Callow about what's happening, and allow them to verify it by scrying. They'll want to go home and care for relatives and homes. They'll also be furious with Cordelia as much as with Cat. 
> 
> Additionally, Juniper is still in Callow with the army to keep an eye on things.

>> **u/cyberdsaiyan** [+15]  (8 hours later)
>> 
>> With the Dead King they have plausible deniability, and the betrayal plan was only an initial thought. I think they need to understand what exactly the dead king wants, why he has invited Catherine and whether their goals are aligned.

>> **u/CouteauBleu** [+8]  *We are the Empire.* (11 hours later)
>> 
>> Your specific plan would have high chances to fail because it's more vulnerable to manipulations by the gods and interventions by Named (eg the Augur tells the Saint of Swords where to go to ambush Cat).
>> 
>> I'm guessing there's a logistical reason Cat still isn't going with Bonfire. Maybe they're still worrying it would be Evil enough to attract heavenly retribution; or maybe they're worried that the crusaders will dedicate a part of their army to pillaging and slaughtering Callowan cities as retribution.

>>> **u/None** [+5]  (15 hours later)
>>> 
>>> Or the simplest reason, they no longer have the fighting strength to pull it off.

>>>> **u/ErraticErrata** [+15]  (15 hours later)
>>>> 
>>>> You're right about that. At this point in the story, the Army of Callow no longer has the capacity to effectively pull off Bonfire.

>>>>> **u/None** [+4]  (15 hours later)
>>>>> 
>>>>> Always great to hear stuff like that directly from the source.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Especially when it is confirming my argument.......
>>>>> 
>>>>> Anyway, thanks for the chapter! Hopefully Cat isn't gonna have to wipe out *too* many nations in response.

>>>> **u/CouteauBleu** [+2]  *We are the Empire.* (15 hours later)
>>>> 
>>>> Oh yeah, that was my base assumption. Forgot about that one.

>> **u/OmniscientQ** [+7]  (13 hours later)
>> 
>> First, Callowan stocks of goblin munitions are pretty much depleted after the Battle of the Camps, and Cat currently has no way to acquire more. Maybe Thief could thieve her way into the Grey Eyries thiefily, but banking on your ability to out-stealth the goblins on their home turf sounds like a *horrible* idea.
>> 
>> Second, just burning down an entire city is the kind of stupid evil that gets villains killed by a band of heroes who just happen to be visiting the third city to be targetted. Unless I'm horribly misremembering it, Bonfire was more about decapitating the Proceran leadership and crippling their ability to wage war. Even if successful, Bonfire is NOT a plan that ends in a peace treaty with Procer.

>> **u/serge_cell** [+3]  (a day later)
>> 
>> And suddenly winged hero specialized in air-to-air combat appear.

> **u/TwoxMachina** [+1]  (11 hours later)
> 
> Fuck Procer. Kill them all. They're not worth the trouble.

>> **u/magna-terra** [+2]  (18 hours later)
>> 
>> let plan BoneFire commence! a new form of bonfire but with the dead king at her back

> **u/Agnoman** [+1]  (a day later)
> 
> Cat, I don't think you can complain about people not trusting you, and then go out to make a deal with the biggest, most unambiguously evil monster on the continent while planning to backstab every nation you can get your hands on.
> 
> And I'm not sure that trying to negotiate with the Dead King after *failing* to negotiate with Cordelia is a particularly great idea anyway. Diplomacy is not your strongest suit.

> **u/WalterTFD** [+1]  (10 hours later)
> 
> Cat, don't go to the Dead King over whether or not a tunnel through the mountains exists.  That is some petty nonsense to kill hundreds of thousands over.  Cordelia agreed to the important parts, let her keep her uncle digging.  The Gods Below are messing with your mind.

>> **u/signspace13** [+9]  (11 hours later)
>> 
>> Cat knows what she's about, the reason she doesn't want that pass cleared is that it gives proceed another direct path straight into her home, and if it is cleared the invasion *will* continue, no matter what is said on paper, a truce is not a truce if they are holding you hostage.

>> **u/CouteauBleu** [+9]  *We are the Empire.* (12 hours later)
>> 
>> The problem is, if Cordelia agrees to a truce but keeps digging the tunnel, there's nothing stopping her once the tunnel is done from going "Well, truce is over, back to invading you!". Digging that tunnel is essentially an act of war, and Cordelia is well aware of that.
>> 
>> What she's doing is essentially saying "I'll agree to your deal, but first I'm altering it. Pray I don't alter it any further."

>> **u/werafdsaew** [+1]  (14 hours later)
>> 
>> It's not about the tunnel itself; it's about whether she'll have to fight a civil war in Callow or not.

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