## [RT] Worth the Candle, ch 119-120 (Depths/Deceptions)

* Author: u/cthulhuraejepsen  *Fruit flies like a banana**
* URL: https://archiveofourown.org/works/11478249/chapters/37148705
* Score: 194

* Created: 2018-09-08T17:16:34

### Post:

[Link to content](https://archiveofourown.org/works/11478249/chapters/37148705)

### Comments:

> **u/foveros** [+91]  (6 hours later)
> 
> Points to the DM for not hitting June with a "La Grande Mort" achievement immediately at the start of the chapter.

>> **u/CoronaPollentia** [+26]  (10 hours later)
>> 
>> You bastard that's horrible, why am I laughing so hard?

>> **u/MuonManLaserJab** [+6]  (a day later)
>> 
>> That's La Morte Normale. La Grande Morte requires something of Shia scale, or maybe even a kiloHitler. Possibly followed by La Morte Totale if AW is not feeling generous.

>> **u/DraggonZ** [+2]  (a day later)
>> 
>> Could you explain what "La Grande Mort" mean? I couldn't understand the reference after several minutes of googling...

>>> **u/eroticas** [+6]  (5 days later)
>>> 
>>> omg yall suck at explaining
>>> 
>>> "Le petite mort" means "little death", is french euphemism for orgasm, *and, also important to explain*, when he first gave Fenn an orgasm the DM hit him with an in game achievement called "la petite mort", making him highly uncomfortable.
>>> 
>>> So now, it would make him even madder for the dm to write "the big death".

>>>> **u/Olivedoggy** [+3]  (6 days later)
>>>> 
>>>> Be pretty funny if he got a 1/7 achievement for getting Fenn killed. One Down, Six to Go!

>>>>> **u/MuonManLaserJab** [+1]  (7 days later)
>>>>> 
>>>>> Ha

>>> **u/RMcD94** [+4]  (a day later)
>>> 
>>> Le petite mort is a small death and a orgasm

>>>> **u/Rouninscholar** [+8]  (a day later)
>>>> 
>>>> To add, in case he doesn't know "Le petite mort" literally means "The small death" but is frequently used to mean orgasm (Don't know if it is the actual translation or a euphemism).
>>>> "La Grande Mort" would mean "The big death"
>>>> 
>>>> Joon got a "Le petite mort" after the first time they had sex.

>>>>> **u/PM_ME_OS_DESIGN** [+1]  (3 days later)
>>>>> 
>>>>> The literal translation is pretty clear (and even clearer when you google it). The *subtext* is not, and can't be googled either.

>>>>>> **u/Rouninscholar** [+1]  (3 days later)
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Eh, clear to you and I. Not everyone has the same basis for understanding foreign languages. I have known some people to have shockingly bad info on English, even though it was their primary.

>>>>>> **u/zonules_of_zinn** [+1]  (6 days later)
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> what is the subtext here? the orgasm meaning is easily googled, as the first hit is the wikipedia page explaining it, and the second is urban dictionary explaining it. 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> so do you mean subtext as in the meaning in worth the candle, as an achievement that joon unlocked?

>>>>>>> **u/PM_ME_OS_DESIGN** [+1]  (6 days later)
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> > 
>>>>>>> > 
>>>>>>> > so do you mean subtext as in the meaning in worth the candle, as an achievement that joon unlocked?
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> I'm talking about the subtext of "Le Grande Mort". It's clearly a reference to "La Petite Mort", but *what* it's saying is incredibly unclear. Is it just a pun of sorts? Is it trying to imply that the petite mort and grande mort are linked/causal?

>>>>>>>> **u/zonules_of_zinn** [+1]  (6 days later)
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> ah, yeah, i actually didn't think too much on La Grande Mort, just assuming a sort of pun meaning. now that i have, i don't think it's actually usable here as a poor taste joke meaning "actual death" or "physical death" after a "petite mort".
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> one meaning would be "the great death" of enlightenment, or ego-death. i'm thinking successfully soul-fucking the locus might get him closer to that state, and actually be more meaningful.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> another would be "great death" as in some mass extinction event. so maybe when they conquer hell and eradicate the demons and devils. i'd rather call that straight up "genocide". perhaps they survive some exclusion zone becoming unexclusioned or other mass casualty event the DM sets up.

>>>>> **u/Slacknopic** [+1]  (4 days later)
>>>>> 
>>>>> It's not the actual translation of orgasm. "La Petite Mort" is colloquially used to mean an orgasm in French, however. "Le" instead of "La" is a grammar error, by the way, like often found when expressions from a language are used in another.

>>>>>> **u/zonules_of_zinn** [+1]  (6 days later)
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> isn't "mort" feminine? google translate gives me "la mort" when i translate "the death".
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Also: *La mort de l'auteur* by Roland Barthes.

>>>>>>> **u/Slacknopic** [+1]  (6 days later)
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> It is a feminine word indeed, which is why it is "la petite mort". Using "le" is a common mistake people make when trying out French, from what I know.

>>>>>>>> **u/zonules_of_zinn** [+1]  (6 days later)
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> oh wow i totally read your previous comment backwards! whoops.

>> **u/gryfft** [+3]  (20 hours later)
>> 
>> Take my upvote and get the fuck out, you filthy animal.
>> 
>> (That's spectacular.)

> **u/cthulhuraejepsen** [+71]  *Fruit flies like a banana* (13 minutes later)
> 
> Blegh, sorry about the delay on these. I found them particularly hard to write, mostly because of the emotional load. *Hopefully* things will be a little faster going forward, but I don't like making promises, so I won't.
> 
> The worldbuilding doc is still being written, in case you were curious about that; the current outline I'm filling in has sections for Magic (~26 varieties), History (pre-Imperial, three empires, two inter-imperiums), Geography, Races (~140), and Cosmology. If you have anything else you think is must-include, let me know (the big one, Gods, is probably going to be written and then left out until/unless they appear in the story, since I don't want spoilers for things that haven't appeared in the text).
> 
> [You can donate on Patreon here.](https://www.patreon.com/alexanderwales)

>> **u/jaspercb** [+22]  *Gravitas Free Zone* (an hour later)
>> 
>> If it could be done without spoilers, I'd really enjoy a summary of some of the exclusion zones we haven't seen. Maybe that falls under Geography.

>> **u/Bowbreaker** [+11]  *Solitary Locust* (7 hours later)
>> 
>> This was definitely emotionally heavy. Having lost someone relatively recently I could identify with a lot of Juniper's thoughts and it wasn't pleasant. It was definitely worth reading though. Thank you.
>> 
>> Regarding the world building doc, I think exclusions and events related to them are a must-include. And Athenaea, though I guess those could be considered part of the magic section. I'd also enjoy entries for the most important/impressive Entads. And maybe something about cultures separate from races, what with the more numerous ones having multiple disparate nations, not to mention the existence of multi-racial cultures.
>> 
>> Edit: Entads, not enters.

>>> **u/zonules_of_zinn** [+3]  (6 days later)
>>> 
>>> having lost someone not so recently, i still identify with those cycles of obsession and dissociation. guilt for thinking too much. guilt for not thinking enough. fuck.

>> **u/sicutumbo** [+9]  (an hour later)
>> 
>> Would you be willing to tell us some basic things about the gods? Like their names, what they're the gods of, their appearance, etc? Just things that an average person would know about the gods through cultural osmosis.

>> **u/MuonManLaserJab** [+6]  (a day later)
>> 
>> > Blegh, sorry about the delay on these.
>> 
>> I think we all appreciate that you take the time to do them right.
>> 
>> (Even though I was the one on discord asking for a nano-update because I was jonesing...)
>> 
>> > Races (~140)
>> 
>> Oh man. Sounds like a tome.

>> **u/Agnoman** [+3]  (11 hours later)
>> 
>> Perhaps obviously, I think the main criteria for what's in the doc should be things that you already know about and things you're interested in writing.
>> 
>> But in terms of this game *I'd* like to see - which is admittedly somewhat different from what's a "must-include" - most of it relates back to the people of the world. Who lives where, what the cultural quirks and values of different groups looks like, where and why the alliances and tensions between people lie, who's producing what and who are they trading it with, how the power structures and politics are set up, the vibes of different cities, etc. Etc.
>> 
>> As a general rule I personally find, say, the effects of a magic system on the society and the setting as interesting if not more than the exact rules of the system.

>> **u/dismantlemars** [+1]  (6 hours later)
>> 
>> Does geography include maps?

>> **u/Rice_22** [+1]  (13 hours later)
>> 
>> It's good. I enjoy reading Juniper going through his depression. Always like to see the main character going through a bout of introspection in rationalist fiction. Or any well-done fiction.

>> **u/None** [+1]  (2 days later)
>> 
>> you write self-reflection extremely well, and there was a lot of that this time. so the wait was worth it

> **u/adgnatum** [+51]  (3 hours later)
> 
> >“She’s my fucking daughter, heal her, now.”
> 
> *I see.*
> 
> I imagine that persists, even now that she's ... a year younger, to put it lightly. That's not a behavior governed by the soul.
> 
> >“Moral statements!” said Fenn as she slipped into the booth next to me. “My favorite!”
> 
> ​
> 
> 😮
> 
> ​
> 
> ...
> 
> ​
> 
> 😮
> 
> ​
> 
> But really, faking us out with a dream impersonating a flashback was excellent.
> 
> ​
> 
> Echoing others here, the whole thing was very well-done. Deep characters, important realizations, and important moments.

>> **u/CouteauBleu** [+5]  *We are the Empire.* (3 hours later)
>> 
>> Maybe she was misrepresenting her emotions to shake Joon out of his stupor?

>>> **u/adgnatum** [+11]  (3 hours later)
>>> 
>>> I am going to divide that into two claims, that (a) her emotions were not like that and (b) she understood how her statement might rouse him.
>>> 
>>> Based on everything about the mental affliction imposed on her by the Crown, I think (a) is false. Claim (b) is probably true though.

>> **u/Bowbreaker** [+4]  *Solitary Locust* (7 hours later)
>> 
>> The dream was actually the first time I got truly broken out of my SoD in this story. No way does someone witness a coherent debate in a dream about something that still seems interesting and is logically followable after waking up.

>>> **u/GaBeRockKing** [+55]  *Horizon Breach: http://archiveofourown.org/works/6785857* (8 hours later)
>>> 
>>> The point of fantasy writing isn't the exact content, but how it makes you feel. The dream makes you feel like you're listening to a sensible discussion, which is what Joon would feel like in the dream, so it fulfils its purpose. A more "realistic" dream wouldn't make you feel like joon felt, and therefore would fail at its purpose.
>>> 
>>> It's kind of like how all speech in novels is heavily stylized-- it's unrealistic, but without body language and shared context, it does a better job of conveying what actually happens than actually including all the stuttering and stumbling and inspecificity even high-charisma people do.

>>>> **u/Bowbreaker** [+7]  *Solitary Locust* (16 hours later)
>>>> 
>>>> Hmm. Makes sense. I'll keep that in mind next time I stumble over a dream in literature.

>>> **u/None** [+5]  (a day later)
>>> 
>>> My interpretation was that the dream was the way it was as a result of the "bad dreams" affliction

>>> **u/MuonManLaserJab** [+8]  (a day later)
>>> 
>>> \#TypicalMindFallacy
>>> 
>>> \#Hashtags
>>> 
>>> (Also it's a dream imposed by an affliction in a videogame-world that seems to bend itself to the rules of narrative, so even if you were right, you'd still be wrong.)

>>> **u/sparr** [+2]  (23 hours later)
>>> 
>>> > No way does someone witness a coherent debate in a dream about something that still seems interesting and is logically followable after waking up.
>>> 
>>> What? I have these all the time.

>>> **u/Argenteus_CG** [+1]  (2 days later)
>>> 
>>> I don't think that was a normal dream. I think, as a result of the 'bad dreams' affliction, that was either the game or the DM feeding him a 'dream'.

> **u/paradoxinclination** [+53]  (5 hours later)
> 
> Goddamn, Valencia makes it so freakin' difficult to parse what's truth and what's lies even when she's not using any devils. This chapter she told Amaryllis she doesn't love Joon, despite that little conversation she had with him back in chapter 77-
> 
> >“Too easy to see the paths in front of me, too hard to know which one to go down,” said Val. “None of the parts and pieces help me make sense of who I am or what I feel.” She looked up at me. “I love you,” she said. “I know that you don’t love me back yet, and Amaryllis says that’s just misplaced attachment, something that I’m going to have to find a way to get over, but she has her own issues with you, so I don’t know how good her advice is.”
> 
> So now I have no idea if Valencia is simply lying to Amaryllis, or if she's lying to *herself,* or if she's actually just grown past her fixation on Juniper.
> 
> Also, absolutely fantastic work by the author here. I was so caught up in the flow of emotion these last two chapters that I was actually getting frustrated that Juniper wasn't lashing out and hurting someone. I was emotionally primed for violence just from the specter of grief I got following Juniper's thoughts, so his own display of self-control in his conversation with Valencia was all the more impressive given how much more powerful his own desire to pass off some of his pain to others must have been.

>> **u/thepublicinternet** [+25]  (6 hours later)
>> 
>> That's the tricky part of Valencia. If you lived your whole life getting instant mastery-level insight of physics, for instance, even when you shut it off you're going to be pretty good. Checking she isn't using a soul to help just shows she isn't making up new lies or mega-analyzing new situations. 
>> 
>> This is part of why Juniper was wise to insist on a total blackout of her looking at him with those skills. Hard, falsifiable rules are how you build trust with socially challenged people (which this is, I mean, plusses and minuses to it, but not being able to be sued is a legal problem too - who would do business with someone like that? - invulnerability isn't so great for trust).

>>> **u/PM_ME_OS_DESIGN** [+7]  (17 hours later)
>>> 
>>> > If you lived your whole life getting instant mastery-level insight of physics, for instance, even when you shut it off you're going to be pretty good.
>>> 
>>> I don't think she ever got devil abilities until she started eating them - which is to say, post-Joon.

>>>> **u/TheColourOfHeartache** [+2]  (a day later)
>>>> 
>>>> I think she got to witness devils at work though.

>>>>> **u/PM_ME_OS_DESIGN** [+2]  (3 days later)
>>>>> 
>>>>> Not the thoughts of a devil. Also, the devils would likely torture and deceive *her* as much as anyone else.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Actually, is that the case? I mean, non-anima can't be magically healed, so surely there would be a ton of permanent self-disfiguration on Valencia caused by devils if that were the case, right?

>>>>>> **u/LupoCani** [+2]  (5 days later)
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> It wouldn't be standard operating procedure, since Infernals wouldn't want non-anima to be easily identifiable. They might make an exception for exceptionally poor vectors like pre-jailbreak Valencia, but don't appear to have done so.

>>> **u/Bowbreaker** [+3]  *Solitary Locust* (7 hours later)
>>> 
>>> I'm curious. We're the skills of the human soul she ate of any use to her during that confrontation?

>>>> **u/xamueljones** [+16]  *My arch-enemy is entropy* (10 hours later)
>>>> 
>>>> There are a lot of souls being mass-produced and therefore wouldn't have any skills at all. So I assume that she ate one of those generic souls.

>>> **u/MilesSand** [+2]  (a day later)
>>> 
>>> There's also the part where she's wrong in her analysis about everything but the results of whatever manipulations that particular soul excells at.

> **u/Jskunsa** [+29]  (an hour later)
> 
> This story is really incredible. The characters feel real in a way that I don’t get from other stories. And I love the loss that happens. While it’s really sad that bad things happen to people we want to be happy, the realism is so essential to a good story. 
> 
> Thanks for writing!

> **u/N64_Chalmers** [+29]  (2 hours later)
> 
> So the latest chapter has Arthur alive after the premiere of 'Captain America: Civil War' (April 2016). After his death, Joon grieved for *months*. WtC began in mid-2017.
> 
> We're closing in on the actual timeline, assuming it's not dynamic.

>> **u/russxbox** [+26]  (3 hours later)
>> 
>> I don't know that we can say that for sure, since that scene was a dream sequence that also involved Fenn and the Dungeon Master. It's possible that the first part of the conversation was an exact replay of a memory, but I wouldn't call it certain enough to say it helps nail down the timeline.

>>> **u/Bowbreaker** [+8]  *Solitary Locust* (8 hours later)
>>> 
>>> What we do know though is that June must have, at the very least, seen trailers of that movie before going to Aerb, even if it may have been after Arthur's death.

>>>> **u/erwgv3g34** [+9]  (10 hours later)
>>>> 
>>>> The dream sequence contains no information about the movie other than it's title, which [was announced in October 2014](https://www.newsarama.com/22573-marvel-announces-black-panther-captain-marvel-inhumans-avengers-infinity-war-films-cap-thor-3-subtitles.html).

>>>>> **u/ProfessorPhi** [+3]  (11 hours later)
>>>>> 
>>>>> Also the backpack could've given info about it

>>>>>> **u/Bowbreaker** [+6]  *Solitary Locust* (16 hours later)
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Wasn't there a cut-off date for media with the backpack? Something like 2011 or so? I don't remember the exact date but it seemed early at the time.

>>>>>>> **u/erwgv3g34** [+3]  (a day later)
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> From [chapter 83](https://archiveofourown.org/works/11478249/chapters/31998642):
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> >You know what didn’t work? Trying to get books that hadn’t existed when I left Earth. I thought it was definitely within the Dungeon Master’s power to create a copy of _The Winds of Winter_ or _The Doors of Stone_, but the backpack gave me back a note that said it couldn’t or wouldn’t. That also extended to technical books from after 2017.

> **u/arenavanera** [+26]  (11 hours later)
> 
> Trying to figure out what's going on with Valencia is really interesting.
> 
> On the one hand, Valencia deciding to break Joon and Fenn up because she can see all the flaws in their relationship is very reasonable.  It's a perfect instantiation of what we know about how devils see the world, and it's subtle enough to be plausible.
> 
> On the other hand, everyone in-universe seems to have so much respect for the ability of devils to manipulate people, that it seems really hard to believe that Valencia didn't know Joon would be super suspicious of her therapy breaking him and Fenn up, even before Fenn's death.  I think there's still a real possibility that we haven't gotten the full story.
> 
> (Also, Joon burning Wisdom and *actually acting like a wise person as a result*, at least for a few paragraphs, was wonderful from both a narrative and emotional perspective.  Forgiving Valencia had a biggest emotional impact of the update, at least for me.)

>> **u/xachariah** [+11]  (16 hours later)
>> 
>> If Fenn didn't get killed, then there would have been a little suspicion on Joon's behalf, but nothing a devil couldn't manipulate her way out of.  (Especially if Val's plan was to swoop in as a romantic partner, which I still think is the case regardless of what she said to Mary.)
>> 
>> It's just that Fenn's death knocked the whole plan off the rails, so now that it's impossible the plan just looks stupid in retrospect.

> **u/None** [+26]  (5 hours later)
> 
> [deleted]

>> **u/Law_Student** [+4]  (12 hours later)
>> 
>> That I can recall there don't seem to be many permanent immunities available in the setting. Valencia has a fair number thanks to what she is, but then that also has social drawbacks and probably isn't duplicable  by others. 
>> 
>> That seems to leave things that can be done with forms of magic we don't understand well yet, things that can be done with entads that are theoretically accessible by the party, and temporary immunities used alongside methods of knowing when to use them ahead of time.

>>> **u/xachariah** [+3]  (16 hours later)
>>> 
>>> Well, there's one path...  We know that Fel Seed is so invincible he can't even be *theoretically* beaten by anyone other than Joon.  
>>> 
>>> Joon knows Fel Seed's power, and per chapter 114, Joon's defining trait is that he can use excluded magic outside of an exclusion zone.  It's probably really^really^really evil to use so that makes them a non-option, but Joon has a direct line to literal invulnerability if he really wants it.

>>>> **u/CouteauBleu** [+12]  *We are the Empire.* (17 hours later)
>>>> 
>>>> > Joon's defining trait is that he can use excluded magic outside of an exclusion zone
>>>> 
>>>> What?
>>>> 
>>>> EDIT: Oh, you mean when he wished for a hot dog?
>>>> 
>>>> > “You used an excluded magic outside the exclusion zone,” said Pallida. The pink of her skin had gone somewhat pale. I glanced at Grak, and he shrugged. Apparently, he hadn’t known that.
>>>> 
>>>> I'm not sure it means Joon has exclusion-bypassing powers. I think it's just a one-off thing with the wishes.

>>>>> **u/WarningInsanityBelow** [+9]  (18 hours later)
>>>>> 
>>>>> Joon also had a gestalt skill outside of its exclusion zone (Deception see chapter 64) , though he couldn't keep it. This is second instance of some Joon/exclusion-zone weirdness going on, and potentially worth investigating, though I think saying he can flat out ignore exclusions is probably jumping to conclusions.

>>>>> **u/kaukamieli** [+1]  (a day later)
>>>>> 
>>>>> He used magic item. I would guess it's different.

>>> **u/Allian42** [+1]  (17 hours later)
>>> 
>>> I was thinking more along the line of high skill perks. He sometimes boost his essentialism when needed, but he never tried using the boost during downtime to see if there are other skills that could offer useful things. Poison resistance/immunity is probably there somewhere.

>>>> **u/MuonManLaserJab** [+4]  (a day later)
>>>> 
>>>> But soul sacrifices seem to make recovering skills harder, so they probably won't be using that method to solve The Woodworking 100 Problem.

>>>>> **u/Allian42** [+1]  (a day later)
>>>>> 
>>>>> Yes, there is that. From the point of view of a player, I don't know how I would go about solving this. Skills and magic take years to train for anyone else so the higher ranks are clouded in mystery, even more considering the game interaction with them. The party develops quickly but they have hard caps on skill levels due to stats and stats due to level. Grinding is dangerous, and plot can just suddenly happen. Then there are the magic items that are rare as hell, have rules on who can use them and can be compromised. 
>>>>> 
>>>>> I keep waiting for Juniper to just unlock something that he can actually grind and make some hard progress. But who knows, maybe Raven is exactly what they need. Someone that was based on a old player, knew Uther and may have extra insight on the game layer.

>>>>>> **u/MuonManLaserJab** [+2]  (a day later)
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> It seems like the game is designed to discourage grinding and easy munchkinry -- which, well, why wouldn't it be? If you can design 140 species and thousands of years of history on the fly, generating rock-solid game mechanics should be easy.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> So it seems like they just need to play the game carefully and as well as they can, with munchkinry in mind but mostly acting like rational people in a normal world. They'll probably only use the Sacrifice when absolutely necessary, and do their best to guess what skills will be most useful. They won't actually solve the Woodworking 100 Problem.

>>>>>>> **u/Allian42** [+1]  (a day later)
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Right. But, like I said at the start, it does looks like they are starting to enter the "divination blocking" phase. And they better start looking for their equivalent of the "divination blocking" because you usually don't get far without it.

>>>>>>> **u/eaglejarl** [+1]  (a day later)
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> I still don't understand quite how the Sacrifice world. He lowers some skills, sinks the points into something else, it wears off after a while...and then what?
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Also, he's mentioned having two "floating points". What's up with those?

>>>>>>>> **u/nytelios** [+5]  (a day later)
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> The skill points that he lowers are permanently gone (sacrificed) until he retrains them, which apparently is more tedious the second time around.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> AFAIK the floating points are the points that he can move around to any primary stat (INS, WIS) for a situational boost without messing with his existing skill caps.

>>>>>>>>> **u/eaglejarl** [+1]  (2 days later)
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Ah, I see. Okay, thanks.

> **u/tangerineskickass** [+44]  (2 hours later)
> 
> > … only if you wrote them like I did, you called them suicide notes instead.
> 
> This seems pretty significant. June wrote suicide notes. Before coming to Aerb. Where the only other person to go there apparently died before doing so.
> 
> June's struggle with Fenn's death, and the way he lashed out at his party, was both hard to read and really well done. I feel like the implication made by the above casts a lot of his actions in a new light.
> 
> Was there any hint of suicide earlier on?

>> **u/Fresh_C** [+38]  (3 hours later)
>> 
>> I'm pretty sure June actually said that he tried to kill himself somewhere in an earlier chapter.
>> 
>> He's never told this to anyone, but he said it in narration.

>>> **u/Croktopus** [+39]  (4 hours later)
>>> 
>>> found it
>>> 
>>> >[...] and then when I hit bottom, as low as I could go …
>>> >
>>> >I tried to kill myself.
>>> >
>>> >I didn’t say this to Grak.
>>> 
>>> ch. 106

>>>> **u/Fresh_C** [+2]  (4 hours later)
>>>> 
>>>> Nice work. I was too lazy to do it myself and wasn't sure exactly where to start looking.

>>> **u/Croktopus** [+2]  (4 hours later)
>>> 
>>> i dont know if he said he *tried* to kill himself, or that he planned to. definitely one or the other

>> **u/tjhance** [+28]  (3 hours later)
>> 
>> Yeah, I also noticed that Arthur went to Aerb after apparently dying, but Joon was apparently just sitting in class. I've always wondered if there was more to it, like that Joon committed suicide (but doesn't remember it, maybe because he's built using a brain snapshot from a few hours before).
>> 
>> And yes, I'm pretty sure Joon mentioned considering suicide or trying to kill himself in an earlier chapter, but I don't remember where.

>>> **u/MuonManLaserJab** [+3]  (a day later)
>>> 
>>> We already know he lost his memory of meeting the DM the first time (if the DM wasn't lying about that).

>>> **u/Sarkavonsy** [+2]  (a day later)
>>> 
>>> > I've always wondered if there was more to it, like that Joon committed suicide (but doesn't remember it, maybe because he's built using a brain snapshot from a few hours before).
>>> 
>>> If that's the case, then if Joon had refused to take the DM's offer and go to Aerb he probably would have just... stopped existing, since on Earth he was already dead.

>>>> **u/tjhance** [+4]  (a day later)
>>>> 
>>>> Yeah although it's interesting that... Joon is really gung-ho about existing, now, even near the very beginning of the story. Doesn't quite line up with having been suicidal beforehand. Not sure what to make of that.

>>>>> **u/Sarkavonsy** [+4]  (a day later)
>>>>> 
>>>>> Eh, I've been suicidal before, but even then I always planned to sign up for cryonics and genuinely wanted to live as long as possible. I don't get it either, but it's totally a thing that can happen.

>> **u/CouteauBleu** [+5]  *We are the Empire.* (3 hours later)
>> 
>> I don't think Aerb is supposed to be any kind of afterlife, Lost-style. I don't know if we're ever going to get a full explanation about the nature of the game, but if we do, I expect it to have transhumanist aesthetic, so no afterlife.

>>> **u/TrebarTilonai** [+5]  (2 days later)
>>> 
>>> I don't think it's an afterlife; I think that accepting the DM's offer is what caused the deaths in the first place. AKA Arthur decided to come to Aerb and his "Real World person" got hit with a truck to explain his absence.

>>>> **u/CouteauBleu** [+2]  *We are the Empire.* (2 days later)
>>>> 
>>>> No real reason that would happen. The DM would probably be able to duplicate Arthur without killing him.

>>>>> **u/TrebarTilonai** [+6]  (2 days later)
>>>>> 
>>>>> When he meets the DM and sees the recording of the initial offer: 
>>>>> 
>>>>> >“I’ll do it,” I said. “Can I … what happens to me, when I leave Earth? I’d like to leave a note or something.” *If I was really here, was Earth even real?* “I don’t want to hurt anyone.”  
>>>>> >  
>>>>> >“\[REDACTED\],” he replied.  
>>>>> >  
>>>>> >\*\*\*  
>>>>> “There were parts of that you left out,” I said, once I’d finished reliving the memory. “Do my parents think that I’m dead?”  
>>>>> >  
>>>>> >“I’m worried about potential spoilers,” replied the Dungeon Master.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Then later:
>>>>> 
>>>>> >“Tell me whether he’s real,” I said. “No, tell me *how* he’s real, how that’s even possible, because he died nine months before I came here, and we didn’t have this technology then.”  
>>>>> >  
>>>>> >“He’s real,” said the Dungeon Master. “I know how much he meant to you. I’m not going to say how that’s possible, but you can draw your own conclusions, if you decide that I’m not lying. And he’s out there, somewhere on Aerb or one of the other planes. He spent most of his life on Aerb, he’s not going to be how you remembered him -- you know that, that’s not news -- but the Arthur that came to Aerb wasn’t just Arthur as you remembered him. He’s the real deal, Arthur as he actually existed.” 
>>>>> 
>>>>> To me, this seems strongly like the DM is the cause of Arthur dying. Joon even explicitly calls it out when he asks if his parents think that he's dead, and that would explain why everyone thought Arthur was dead when he got transported to Aerb.

>> **u/TrebarTilonai** [+2]  (2 days later)
>> 
>> The connection between death and the Game World is something that I noticed way back during his conversation with the DM. I think it's the other way around though; I suspect Arthur died in the real world because he took the DM's offer. Similarly, I don't think Joon committed suicide, but he is probably dead in the real world due to taking the offer.

>>> **u/zonules_of_zinn** [+1]  (6 days later)
>>> 
>>> \> but he is probably dead in the real world due to taking the offer.
>>> 
>>> effectively suicide!

>>>> **u/TrebarTilonai** [+1]  (8 days later)
>>>> 
>>>> Depends on your frame of reference, I suppose. From the point of view of Earth, I think he is dead. However, he didn't necessarily die in a way that looks like suicide. Arthur, for example, got hit by a truck. That being said, apparent suicide would fit into his personal narrative on Earth so it's possible.  
>>>> 
>>>> Either way, he's obviously still alive on Aerb so from a larger frame of reference he's not dead so it can't be effectively suicide.

> **u/Chedeux** [+20]  (5 hours later)
> 
> So Joon X Locus when? There has been a suspicious amount of foreshadowing towards it.

>> **u/tjhance** [+15]  (8 hours later)
>> 
>> including this [out-of-story foreshadowing](https://www.reddit.com/r/rational/comments/8id60w/rtwip_worth_the_candle_ch_94_grayscale/dyscwwu/)

>>> **u/adgnatum** [+13]  (9 hours later)
>>> 
>>> level 1: foreshadow story in a reddit comment
>>> 
>>> level 2: prevent this by only doing jokes in reddit comments
>>> 
>>> level 3: once everyone knows you're at level 2, they can ignore it all; flip a coin to decide which level to model

>>>> **u/None** [+10]  (a day later)
>>>> 
>>>> Like how EY joking posted about >!hermione becoming a magic alicorn!<

>>>>> **u/MuonManLaserJab** [+1]  (a day later)
>>>>> 
>>>>> Missed that...

>>>>>> **u/zonules_of_zinn** [+2]  (6 days later)
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> last two lines of this post \[contains spoilers\]: [http://www.hpmor.com/a-rant-thereof/](http://www.hpmor.com/a-rant-thereof/) \[contains spoilers\]

>>>>>>> **u/MuonManLaserJab** [+3]  (7 days later)
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> I *did* read that. And I glossed over the end, just as I was supposed to.

>>>>> **u/adgnatum** [+1]  (a day later)
>>>>> 
>>>>> Just so. Maybe a different 'flavor' of level 3: he further hampered our interpretation by making the foreshadowing seem like a joke. We had no idea how it could ever become true, so we just had to wonder which side of the coin came up.

> **u/xachariah** [+20]  (3 hours later)
> 
> It's interesting that nobody mentioned soul hacking as a way to deal with grief.  Losing a loved one is not that dissimilar to being in an unrequited love situation.
> 
> It's something Joon wouldn't approve of, but if I had a button to 100% turn off the pain when I lost a loved one, I'd use it ASAP.

>> **u/sicutumbo** [+28]  (4 hours later)
>> 
>> Joon wouldn't do it because of various reasons, primarily because he feels it would feel like erasing her memory from his life. Or some similar form of disrespect, to erase feeling bad about her being gone. He does mention that Amaryllis might do so, but I kind of doubt that she would for the same reason Joon doesn't, although she might consider it if they didn't have the time chamber and needed to deal with something urgent without being crippled by grief.

> **u/dabmg10** [+17]  (3 hours later)
> 
> So fenn is definitely gone and if she were to come back due to the long term time frame it would most likely be in an epilogue of some sort.

>> **u/Watchful1** [+23]  (5 hours later)
>> 
>> On the contrary, I think this is literally the only way the story could have gone and still have Fenn come back to life. If they just acted like they could resurrect her and then went and did it, it would become all but impossible to actually kill any other protagonist. We would just expect them to come back.
>> 
>> But if they go through two whole chapters of emotional turmoil and then suddenly bring her back somehow, it's much more of a plot twist and we won't automatically expect it in the future.
>> 
>> Dunno if they actually will, but I would say these two chapters increase the chance rather than decrease it.

>>> **u/None** [+6]  (a day later)
>>> 
>>> Narratively speaking its a bit like having someone in an earth drama go into a coma that they may or may not leave

>>> **u/PresentCompanyExcl** [+3]  *The Culture* (2 days later)
>>> 
>>> Plus the DM might give him a choice at some point, a quest with 2 victory conditions: resurrect fenn, or X. Then there is some opportunity cost involved.

>> **u/SvalbardCaretaker** [+12]  *Mouse Army* (4 hours later)
>> 
>> I fully expect chapter 300 or so having June doing Evil acts in order to bring back Fenn. Not likely, but a solid 20% in my books.

>>> **u/adgnatum** [+9]  (5 hours later)
>>> 
>>> We've already *used* that twist on \[redacted\]

> **u/WalterTFD** [+16]  (13 hours later)
> 
> It is refreshingly realistic how little fucks Bethel gives.  It's like how in real life, when something that seems like it crushes the whole world happens to someone, and the guy going buy on the street is just out to buy eggs or whatever.

>> **u/MuonManLaserJab** [+9]  (a day later)
>> 
>> Uh...normal humans would at least feign a heck of a lot more sympathy when one of their housemates dies. It's not like she didn't know Fenn, or the others.

>> **u/PresentCompanyExcl** [+3]  *The Culture* (2 days later)
>> 
>> It's good writing too. It apparently hard to write non human psychologies. There's no reason the house would have a human psychology, it has different values and goals than humans and that comes across pretty well.
>> 
>> It seems like she realised she needed to get on board with the grieving because at the funeral she participated well.

> **u/Krossfireo** [+28]  (58 minutes later)
> 
> This was incredibly well done characterization

> **u/Izeinwinter** [+37]  (3 hours later)
> 
> None of the characters seem to understand the actual problem with the women in refrigerator trope - Why it is such a hated trope. Which.. okay, that actually fits most of their characterizations, but would Tiff not have hit them upside the head? 
> 
> The issue is not only that this trope involves female characters dying. It is also, and most egregiously, that their deaths have nothing to do with them. 
> 
> They are murdered - *in story* not just by the author, but from a Watsonian perspective, to hurt the male protagonist. Which is just insult on top of injury. If the love interest jumps in front of a bullet to save the protagonist, that would not be this trope.  (Nor is Fenn, really. Fenn died a soldiers death.)

>> **u/tjhance** [+37]  (3 hours later)
>> 
>> man, I thought Arthur's argument was super-obnoxious. Tiff (I think) is trying to say that authors need to get less attached to gender roles so they can start writing more balanced stories. And Arthur is like "lol you're saying gender doesn't matter so the fridge trope doesn't matter".
>> 
>> Like geez dude, no wonder Tiff lost interest in him. (I mean, it's not totally clear if this is how Arthur actually felt since it's a dream, but I assume it's based in reality.)

>>> **u/ProfessorPhi** [+38]  (11 hours later)
>>> 
>>> I'm 90% sure Arthur's characterisation is decaying with Joon's perception of him as Uther. He's becoming less good and more dickish and sexist. The arguments are becoming more and more neckbeard-y.

>>>> **u/tjhance** [+15]  (11 hours later)
>>>> 
>>>> yeah that's a good point. maybe this conversation really is completely imagined and this is Arthur but filtered through that lens

>>>> **u/None** [+14]  (a day later)
>>>> 
>>>> >  Arthur's characterisation is decaying with Joon's perception of him as Uther.
>>>> 
>>>> Alternatively this is what he was always like anf Joon is only now remembering the bad stuff

>>> **u/MuonManLaserJab** [+7]  (a day later)
>>> 
>>> Wait, he was just calling out what he thought was an unfair objection, there. He wasn't actually saying gender doesn't matter, he was saying that Tiff was being inconsistent about when she considered gender to matter.

>>>> **u/tjhance** [+6]  (a day later)
>>>> 
>>>> He's still being obnoxious.
>>>> 
>>>> There's a difference between "representation and gender balance in media as a whole matter" and "one doesn't actually have to pick the same gender for this character archetype every time for whatever convoluted reasons they think they have". Arthur is equating those and then saying Tiff is being inconsistent, then declares that he "won the argument".
>>>> 
>>>> Tiff elaborates later,
>>>> 
>>>> > “The whole argument is about stories and their impacts in aggregate, ” said Tiff. “Set aside your pet theories on causes for a second, if ninety percent of protagonists are male, and ninety percent of love interests are female, and writers kill off love interests half the time, then that’s -- I don’t know, some math, but you’d run into it a lot of the time, and most of what a girl sees growing up is women having horrible things happen to them as a way of motivating the main character or increasing the stakes. Which sucks.”
>>>> 
>>>> Then Arthur just brushes this objection off,
>>>> 
>>>> > Arthur shrugged. “Okay?” he asked. “I never said that it didn’t suck.”
>>>> 
>>>> Honestly I'm not sure what Arthur's thesis statement in this argument is (or how he thinks he "won") but he doesn't really seem to be listening to Tiff.
>>>> 
>>>> If he really had already understood how much it sucked, he wouldn't have tried to trap Tiff in an inconsistency like he did, because he would have understood what she was trying to say.

>>>>> **u/MuonManLaserJab** [+12]  (a day later)
>>>>> 
>>>>> I think you're misreading the thing about "winning". He's not actually claiming that he's won the argument; he's saying that if she arbitrarily says that gender doesn't matter when it suits her, then she's torpedoeing her own argument. Maybe he's wrong, but not maliciously so.
>>>>> 
>>>>> I think Arthur and Tiff are both partially correct, but Tiff is more correct, and Arthur is being somewhat insensitive to the social implications of his argument. He's definitely over-argumentative and a little socially stunted. But he's not being *awful*, and I think the WtC readership is being a little unfair because we now view Arthur as compromised while Tiff is still perfect in Joon's memory.

>> **u/Dragfie** [+4]  (18 hours later)
>> 
>> could you explain why the trope is so hated? 
>> 
>> I don't really get why being murdered to hurt the protagonist as you mentioned is a problem in of itself, and what did you mean by 'their deaths have nothing to do with them'?

>>> **u/Izeinwinter** [+26]  (19 hours later)
>>> 
>>> Because it is a prime example of the denial of individual importance and agency to female characters. 
>>> 
>>> Contrast this trope with the "Mentor always dies". Mentor is an even more hazardous occupation than love interest in narrative, but the mentor is invariably killed for reasons relating to the mentor. They sacrifice themselves, they are hunted down by their ancient enemies and so forth. Their death is about them. 
>>> 
>>> Fridging is not. The killer does not care about the victim at all, except as an emotional bludgeon to point at the hero, and would be equally happy to burn their stamp collection. Which is dehumanizing as all hell.

>>> **u/None** [+5]  (18 hours later)
>>> 
>>> I'm not great at literary critic, but here's my take on it:
>>> 
>>> When you only use the female love interest's death to get at the main character, you're reducing her final moments to a plot device. That is pretty demeaning to her character, kinda like the "use me for spare parts" thing Fenn's letter suggested.
>>> 
>>> Often a character's death can have meaning to them (besides being an endpoint); like someone consciously choosing to sacrifice their life for someone else, or jumping off a cliff rather than face trial. Having a character just *killed* takes that agency away from them and turns them into a victim.

>>>> **u/MuonManLaserJab** [+6]  (a day later)
>>>> 
>>>> In real life, people are generally not killed for "satisfying" reasons that say a lot about their character and represent great and honorable sacrifice etc. Sometimes you get hit by a bus.

>>>>> **u/None** [+5]  (a day later)
>>>>> 
>>>>> However, in fiction something like this rarely happens to important characters. So *if* they become a victim of circumstance, it means they weren't important characters.

>> **u/MuonManLaserJab** [+3]  (a day later)
>> 
>> But that's explicitly the point -- you have an invincible character, so their enemies strike at their social weak points.
>> 
>> Unless women never die in comics for other reasons, which for all I know is true.

> **u/CouteauBleu** [+26]  *We are the Empire.* (3 hours later)
> 
> It's funny, it took me until the Dungeon Master showed up to realize why the flashback sequence had Tiff and Arthur argue about Women in Fridges.

>> **u/None** [+12]  (18 hours later)
>> 
>> [Worm Spoilers](#s "For some reason that whole conversation made me remember that Brian was turned into wall decoration *inside a freezer*. Wonder if Wildbow did that on purpose?")

>>> **u/talks2deadpeeps** [+5]  *The Culture* (3 days later)
>>> 
>>> He confirmed it was an intentional reference, I think.

> **u/cthulhuraejepsen** [+10]  *Fruit flies like a banana* (4 minutes later)
> 
> Typos here, please. (My wife, /u/inked_cellist, is still Typo Czar.)

>> **u/Saintsant** [+6]  (6 hours later)
>> 
>> 120
>> > Chekov will rise from his grave and shoot you himself
>> 
>> Chekhov

>>> **u/Inked_Cellist** [+2]  (a day later)
>>> 
>>> Fixed, thanks!

>> **u/sibswagl** [+3]  (an hour later)
>> 
>> The link to reddit at the end of chapter 120 does not point to this thread (or to reddit at all).

>>> **u/Inked_Cellist** [+2]  (a day later)
>>> 
>>> Huh, it works for me

>>>> **u/sibswagl** [+1]  (a day later)
>>>> 
>>>> It's working now.

>> **u/Ilverin** [+3]  (2 hours later)
>> 
>> ch 119
>> 
>> > I didn’t think that was anything the game was done, not directly
>> 
>> had done?

>>> **u/Inked_Cellist** [+2]  (a day later)
>>> 
>>> Yep, fixed. Thanks!

>> **u/SvalbardCaretaker** [+3]  *Mouse Army* (3 hours later)
>> 
>>  119
>>  >I didn’t think that was anything the game [was] done, not directly
>> 
>> 120
>>  >all the things that I could have said to turn you against each other, the little annoyances and linger[ing] problems

>>> **u/Inked_Cellist** [+2]  (a day later)
>>> 
>>> Fixed, thanks!

>> **u/Kerbal_NASA** [+3]  (5 hours later)
>> 
>> ch. 119
>> 
>> >I didn’t like the feeling on conflating the two,
>> 
>> on -> of

>>> **u/Inked_Cellist** [+2]  (a day later)
>>> 
>>> Fixed, thanks!

>> **u/Xtraordinaire** [+3]  *Team Glimglam* (16 hours later)
>> 
>> chapters 6-12(+?) Fu**sch**ia (chapters 2-5 spell it Fuchsia)

>>> **u/Inked_Cellist** [+2]  (a day later)
>>> 
>>> Okay, I went back and fixed what I found. I only checked chapters 6-15 though and will check for later ones another time (maybe).

>>>> **u/nytelios** [+6]  (a day later)
>>>> 
>>>> If you're browsing via AO3, you can click the Entire Work on the top and CTRL+F search everything rather than slog through individual chapters.

>>>>> **u/Inked_Cellist** [+1]  (a day later)
>>>>> 
>>>>> Okay, thanks!

>> **u/Rorschach_Roadkill** [+3]  (19 hours later)
>> 
>> Not sure, but chapter 120:
>> 
>> > fixins'
>> 
>> Fixin's feels slightly better to me, the apostrophe should replace the missing letter

>>> **u/Inked_Cellist** [+3]  (a day later)
>>> 
>>> I think you're right, I fixed it.

>> **u/thrawnca** [+3]  *Carbon-based biped* (a day later)
>> 
>> Chapter 119
>> 
>> ; images./: images.
>> 
>> Chapter 120
>> 
>> " infamously weak - Extra space

>>> **u/Inked_Cellist** [+2]  (7 days later)
>>> 
>>> Fixed them both, thanks!

>> **u/nytelios** [+2]  (10 hours later)
>> 
>> 120
>> 
>> the little annoyances and linger(ing) problems, and … I hated what I saw

>>> **u/Inked_Cellist** [+1]  (a day later)
>>> 
>>> Fixed, thanks!

>> **u/Slacknopic** [+2]  (4 days later)
>> 
>> In chapter 120.
>> >Apropos  
>> 
>> This should be À-propos.

>>> **u/Inked_Cellist** [+2]  (7 days later)
>>> 
>>> Disagree. Thanks for the suggestion though!

>> **u/SvalbardCaretaker** [+1]  *Mouse Army* (3 hours later)
>> 
>>  119 >I didn’t think that was anything the game [was] done, not directly
>> 
>> 120 >all the things that I could have said to turn you against each other, the little annoyances and linger[ing] problems

> **u/tjhance** [+10]  (2 hours later)
> 
> so is going to a hell like the opposite of going into a fridge?

>> **u/SvalbardCaretaker** [+17]  *Mouse Army* (3 hours later)
>> 
>> Aerb hells are entropically cold, they need to use humans as the energy source. I dont know what that does to the metaphor though.

>>> **u/nytelios** [+4]  (10 hours later)
>>> 
>>> Fenn's the woman in the fridge, the motivational energy source for Joon to finally pick his ass up and start working on becoming a better person (as Fenn did).

>>>> **u/rabotat** [+3]  (10 days later)
>>>> 
>>>> Unless we concede that she was murdered by DM, Fenn is not an example of this trope.
>>>> 
>>>> Fridging is an enemy killing a love interest with the express purpose of hurting the protagonist. The demaning part comes in the loss of agency the woman suffers, she is a plot point and motivation, killed not for *who* she is but *what* she is to the MC.
>>>> 
>>>> In this case Fenn died in combat as a part of the party where everyone was in danger.
>>>> 
>>>> As I said, this only goes if the DM didn't intentionally kill *specifically* to mess with Juniper.

>>>>> **u/nytelios** [+3]  (10 days later)
>>>>> 
>>>>> > As I said, this only goes if the DM didn't intentionally kill specifically to mess with Juniper.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Very debatable!
>>>>> 
>>>>> However, I was just trying to force the metaphor. Fenn's not the typical woman stuffed in a fridge, but her death here does evoke the trope, at least in a meta way. The DM could definitely have nudged it so she lived, but she died, with Joon aware of the DM's omission (and implicitly aware of *why* it was her who died, i.e. love interest, just broke up).

> **u/WalterTFD** [+19]  (3 hours later)
> 
> June is kinda cold to the pink haired lady, yeah?  Like, she saves his life and pledges eternal loyalty, and he couldn't possibly give less fucks.

>> **u/Fresh_C** [+47]  (3 hours later)
>> 
>> He's not in a good headspace.
>> 
>> It's literally minutes after his closest friend in the world just died.
>> 
>> For context, he barely was able to convince himself to finish saving Solace's life.

>> **u/GeeJo** [+30]  *Custom Flair* (5 hours later)
>> 
>> Also bear in mind that she lost *multiple* friends, some of whom betrayed her on the level of the Amaryllis/Fallatehr chapter betrayal of Joon.
>> 
>> And he dismisses her as an NPC.
>> 
>> It's completely in character for Juniper, but it doesn't make him any less of a douche.

>>> **u/None** [+10]  (a day later)
>>> 
>>> She's an experienced soldier and he's a teenager who was brouht up in a more sheltered environment than anywhere on Aerb. Despite all his magical abilities Joon is still at core an earth teenager with emotional issues

>>> **u/MuonManLaserJab** [+8]  (a day later)
>>> 
>>> Man, we're harsh on these characters.

>>> **u/CouteauBleu** [+8]  *We are the Empire.* (3 days later)
>>> 
>>> I mean, her friends died while trying to murder him, and after successfully murdering his girlfriend. He's allowed to be a little cold to her for a time.

>> **u/tjhance** [+21]  (8 hours later)
>> 
>> I like how Amaryllis's reaction is just "cool, give us all your stuff"

>>> **u/MuonManLaserJab** [+2]  (a day later)
>>> 
>>> The end of the world is looming. Mary needs to be that person.

>> **u/Trustworth** [+19]  (6 hours later)
>> 
>> > Like, she saves his life and pledges eternal loyalty
>> 
>> > “Juniper Smith, I pledge my life to you, from now until the moment I die, by the sacred power of my eternal soul.”
>> 
>> Pallida is a renacim, and re-incarnates rather than going to the Hells, so this isn't *quite* eternal loyalty. He's still a bit blase about it.

>>> **u/bucketsofmercy** [+8]  (7 hours later)
>>> 
>>> I was wondering about that. So her loyalty only goes so far until her next death?

>>>> **u/CoronaPollentia** [+20]  (10 hours later)
>>>> 
>>>> Her *pleged* loyalty. I can see that as being a significant thing in renacim culture. Imagine what it would be like to drop to your knees in front of someone and pledge the next decade of your life to them - it's not "till death do us part" but it's far from *insignificant* either.

>>>>> **u/nytelios** [+5]  (10 hours later)
>>>>> 
>>>>> I'm curious what pushed Pallida to pledge her service to Joon. The dissolution of her party? Juniper's display of raw emotion at Fenn's death? Some other trigger, like the demonstration of advanced soul magic ("sacred power of my eternal soul" - wonder how the renacim and soul mages are historically related)?

>>>>>> **u/Fresh_C** [+8]  (11 hours later)
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> I it might have been a move to get him to trust her since he was being so dismissive. She wanted to make sure they didn't just leave and avoid her after everything that happened.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> So she decided to skip the whole song and dance of them all sitting and debating how things would go and instead just pledged her loyalty right away so he would know where she stood.

>>>>>> **u/MuonManLaserJab** [+5]  (a day later)
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> The end of the world is looming, and Joon is the new Uther. Serving him is actually the most important thing to be doing, and she does the pledge to try to ensure that he accepts her help.

>>>>>> **u/None** [+1]  (a day later)
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> I assumed it was guilt from her friends betraying and attacking Joon's party

> **u/xamueljones** [+26]  *My arch-enemy is entropy* (10 hours later)
> 
> I have a new working theory for how Juniper got to Aerb and it's all because of this one line in chapter 120
> 
> >only if you wrote them like I did, you called them suicide notes instead.
> 
> I hypothesize that the last day Juniper experienced on Earth before coming to Aerb, Juniper chose to commit suicide for some reason and was put into cryonic preservation.
> 
> The part that makes me suspect this possibility is a throwaway line all the way back in chapter 1:
> 
> >Five seconds ago, I had been passing notes in fifth period English.
> 
> Perfectly innocuous, right? What teenager hasn't passed notes to their friends in class? Except...what friend? Juniper talked about how all of his relationships were wrecked or drifted apart after Arthur's death and there were no mention of him making up with his old friends or making new ones. Only Reimer and Tom was still in the DM group at that point and I'm not sure they were getting along well enough to be passing notes. I speculate that he was actually passing notes with someone who was trying to help him or talk about Arthur (could be Tiff or someone else) and his memories cut out right before he reads or writes something that causes a fight or something awful at his school. So he then chooses to die later that day and is frozen with his memories of his suicide (and its cause) erased or forgotten.
> 
> Another weaker supporting point for this theory is how he never explicitly thinks about just exactly *what* he was doing or seeing in fifth period English. Every time Juniper thinks about how he got to Aerb, it's always how he could possibly suddenly transition from everyday life to Aerb (or the meeting with the DM in chapter 79). But there's no review of the classroom memory for any clues about his impending fate or any flashback to the scene itself of when he transitions (nor does he ever talk about it with his party) and I can't help but think it's a small clue about what is missing from the 'story'/memory.

>> **u/CouteauBleu** [+9]  *We are the Empire.* (16 hours later)
>> 
>> > and there were no mention of him making up with his old friends or making new ones
>> 
>> Actually, there were a few. The narrator mentions that he was starting to shake off his depression and trying to repair his relationships at the time he was ??? to Aerb.
>> 
>> E.g. in the notes that describe all his different RPG universes, the last one is one he was building as an apology to his friends.

>>> **u/None** [+3]  (a day later)
>>> 
>>> > The narrator mentions that he was starting to shake off his depression and trying to repair his relationships at the time he was ??? to Aerb.
>>> 
>>> Depressingly sudden improvement in mood after a depressive period is often a warning sign for suicide

>>>> **u/CouteauBleu** [+7]  *We are the Empire.* (a day later)
>>>> 
>>>> There wasn't anything in the text describing it as sudden or intense.
>>>> 
>>>> (also IRL the protagonist lived on to write Self-Insert fiction on r/rational)

> **u/akaltyn** [+8]  (6 days later)
> 
> Random thought that occured to me when rereading the early parts of the book. Does Solace count as Amarylis's daughter for the purposes of the various inherited entads? If so is she now next in line if Amarylsis dies? Also I can imagine the connection to an immortal druid would raise some eyebrows

> **u/lmbfan** [+7]  (21 hours later)
> 
> Is no one going to comment on how Raven, the spitting image of Maddie, shows up literally the hour Fenn is in the ground?  What a kick in the gut to Juniper, assuming of course that she is the prime candidate for replacing Fenn as a companion.
> 
> If Fenn had survived, would Raven's arrival have been delayed?

> **u/ThatDarnSJDoubleW** [+6]  (a day later)
> 
> 119 was astonishingly good

> **u/ceegheim** [+10]  (6 hours later)
> 
> Somehow I think people should have called out Joon harder for his melodramatic stupidity in the end (“You look at me with a devil behind your eyes again and I’ll never speak to you again.”). His melodramatic stupidity towards pink-haired lady was more forgivable, since still in shock.
> 
> Otherwise, awesome chapters. 
> 
> I was, and still am, skeptical of the timing of Fenn's death immediately after the breakup, because I hate that trope ("oh, relationship becomes difficult to write? just kill it off"). But the trope is more bearable due to its in-universe discussion and the Narrative being part of the world.

>> **u/adgnatum** [+8]  (6 hours later)
>> 
>> (Not that in this case either of us would expect our author to decline to write the relationship just because it's hard. Our viewpoint character was taking everything for granted, but that's hardly the same issue.)

>>> **u/ceegheim** [+6]  (6 hours later)
>>> 
>>> Sorry, I explained myself badly.
>>> 
>>> So, there is a trope where character X moves into a position that makes the story hard to write, and lazy/coward authors just kill off character X. 
>>> 
>>> Imagine that Fenn does not die; imagining the group dynamics afterwards is not easy, and probably not easy to write. Now, it is something that we're not gonna see. In other words, her death cheapens the breakup and robs us of seeing how they struggle to have a working relationship, how Joon does or does not move on, and the same for Fenn.
>>> 
>>> That stinks. It stinks somewhat less due to the fact that the story talks explicitly about the timing.

>>>> **u/adgnatum** [+11]  (6 hours later)
>>>> 
>>>> No, you explained fine. The difference is that in this case we have no doubt in our author.

>> **u/Veedrac** [+2]  (a day later)
>> 
>> My interpretation has been that people are scared of calling out Juniper because he holds all the cards and he's not exactly the most stable character. They try to work with and around his quirks, rather than addressing them directly.

> **u/Calsem** [+5]  (6 hours later)
> 
> Some fantastic writing in these chapters.  Hopefully they use fens death as a wake-up call to start treating these fights seriously and prep beforehand.  Going to their enemies base and not bringing the princes protection was a bad idea.  They should have met in nuetral ground.

> **u/panickedappricott** [+2]  (a day later)
> 
> Any one have a guess at what lesson juniper is supposed to learn from the locus?

> **u/None** [+2]  (4 days later)
> 
> Yet another example of Arthur having shitty views of the opposite gender; he's casually ok with women being marginalized.
> 
> *“I haven’t actually agreed that there is a problem,” said Arthur. “And that’s not ground I’m willing to cede at this time.”*
> 
> I think Arthur had a lot of bad tendencies that young males have on Earth, and then Aerb turned it plus narcissism up to 13.  I  think we're going to find him alive somewhere, doing something incredibly shitty to women.

>> **u/Timewinders** [+2]  (4 days later)
>> 
>> I hope not. It'd be a little too convenient for Joon. He feels bad for going out with Tiff without even telling Arthur but he gets to feel better about it after the fact because it turns out Arthur was actually a bad guy all around. It especially feels weird to me since Arthur seems to have been based on a real person in real life, and his actions with Bethel are purely hypothetical.

> **u/PanickedApricott** [+2]  (15 hours later)
> 
> I wonder if it was Juniper that died to the poison and he currently is in hell.

>> **u/eltegid** [+3]  (3 days later)
>> 
>> Hell doesn't seem to work that way on Aerb, though

>> **u/PM_ME_OS_DESIGN** [+3]  (3 days later)
>> 
>> He would've gotten an achievement for dying.

> **u/None** [+1]  (2 hours later)
> 
> [deleted]

>> **u/CouteauBleu** [+3]  *We are the Empire.* (3 hours later)
>> 
>> Yeah, I had the same thought. Maybe have her deflect arrows shot by the house?
>> 
>> Poor Val. She's cursed with power. Nobody can ever trust her.

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