8.2 KiB
Worm
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Author: u/AmeteurOpinions Finally, everyone was working together.*
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Score: 78
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Created: 2013-12-03T01:19:02
Post:
Comments:
u/okaycat [+14] (an hour later)
I wouldn't really describe Worm as a rationalist fic. It doesn't really espouse rationalist ideals.
Although rationalism is not a huge part of the storyl, no one really holds the idiot ball. There are still characters that act like idiots, but its portrayed believably and doesn't seem unrealistic.
Even if it is not necessary rationalist, its still an amazing story. I would encourage everyone to read it, it is so good.
u/derefr [+9] (4 hours later)
...no one really holds the idiot ball. There are still characters that act like idiots...
To put it another way: idiocy isn't in conflict with rationality when it's justified by characterization, rather than by plot. The entertaining kind of idiocy is usually what English majors call a "tragic flaw": some aspect of the character's personality (their utility function, really) that you can tell in advance will have that character make the "wrong" decision at a crucial time.
u/marmaris74 [+9] (5 hours later)
The main distinction seems to be that every other superhero story seems to center around objectively amoral antagonists with a utility function of "be evil."
u/derefr [+3] (6 hours later)
Right. I think an important thing for "idiocy justified by characterization" is that the "broken" utility-function a character ostensibly has, has to be one that readers can still identify with; one they could imagine themselves having, or a friend having, without having long-ago been called out on their bullshit, or just having failed to thrive as a human being.
It's easy to imagine someone with a roughly human set of values, but different weights on those values. A much heavier weight on, say, "enjoy rich food", might be a character's undoing, when they end up dying of a heart attack at a pivotal moment.
It's hard, meanwhile, to imagine a paperclip-optimizer.
Smart paperclippers (ones who out-think every heroic act on their mission to produce paperclips) might be entertaining (and horrifying! I'd go so far as to say that the entire genre of horror exists to explore the interactions between humans and smart other-optimizers, with "murderous sociopath" being the default instantiation of the latter), but stupid paperclippers are just grating. And comic-book villains are definitely stupid paperclippers.
u/AmeteurOpinions [+4] Finally, everyone was working together. (an hour later)
Worm may not focus on rationality, but it does have an awful lot of decision making under while incredible stress with a flair for improvisation and decisive strikes to solve impossible situations.
u/Empiricist_or_not [+3] Aspiring polite Hegemonizing swarm (a day later)
@/u/okaycat
wouldn't really describe Worm as a rationalist fic. It doesn't really espouse rationalist ideals.
I disagree with you, my earlier devil advocating against worm aside, on how we you are defining rationalist fiction.
The big 5 /u/seraphnb has listed are filled by Worm. You are disqualifying Worm because the evangelical <definition 2> author rants on rational principles aren't there; i.e. :
The story teaches sound lessons about rationalist techniques, which can be applied to readers' lives.
Those are useful for spreading rationalism, but do we need the author to hit us over the head with how we are supposed to think to enjoy a rational story, or to call it rational fiction? Discuss/comment?
u/Minimum-Conclusion-8 [+1] (8 years later)
If being taught feels like being hit over the head, Rationality isnt going to help you learn
u/khafra [+1] (9 days later)
Some stuff, like the believable characters, is just good writing. But things with a 96% chance of happening actually happen; there's no convenient coincidences; and characters make intelligent, yet epistemically realistic decisions. Bayes' theorem never gets mentioned, but it does get illustrated.
u/AmeteurOpinions [+6] Finally, everyone was working together. (5 minutes later)
/r/parahumans (Warning: Contains Severe Spoilers - Do Not Enter Unless Finished)
u/awesomeideas [+2] Dai stiho, cousin. (3 months later)
Also: /r/PactWebSerial
u/Riddle-Tom_Riddle [+1] (40 minutes later)
I think Worm is finished now.
u/noggin-scratcher [+12] I am a happy tree (44 minutes later)
Doesn't mean everyone's read to the end.
u/AmeteurOpinions [+3] Finally, everyone was working together. (59 minutes later)
Better?
u/Empiricist_or_not [+2] Aspiring polite Hegemonizing swarm (43 minutes later)
Oookay. . . I'll ask a question I led up to in my criticism of Inviolate over in /r/HPMOR here
Is Worm rational fic? Specifically does the rising level of Godzilla threshold Warning: TvTropes detract from plausibility, such that the decision making examples are no longer useful? Does the semi-constant idiot ball holding by the protectorate add or detract from it as rational story?
disclaimer I am a huge fan of worm.
u/None [+2] (an hour later)
Involate
linkity link link; about rationalish Lex Luthor, and somewhat related to amazing rationalist Superman comic Red Son.
To answer your question, it meets the main criteria (no idiot balls, gray morality, intelligent application of resources), so it's fine.
u/AmeteurOpinions [+2] Finally, everyone was working together. (an hour later)
The decisions in Worm are usually being made under extreme duress or time pressures, an are mostly about quick thinking, decisive action, making use of opprotunities and clever improvisation. Later on there was a bigger emphasis on information gathering too, so I think it counts.
The Godzilla threshold is inevitable in the Wormverse and quite welcome.
As for the Protectorate and PRT... We only ever see two directors for any significant length of time, and there is evidence of internal sabotage, etc. so maybe they deserve a pass.
u/Xtraordinaire [+3] Team Glimglam (20 hours later)
Ironically the decisions that were made under extreme pressures were so much better than what Skitter did in her leisure time. That stuff infuriated me to no end. Because of that Worm did not seem a rational fic to me from the very start, and it kind of disappointed me (since it was advertised in r/hpmor)
Still, well written, got me to S9 showdown. Maybe I'll finish it on vacation.
u/evilmaniacal [+1] (5 hours later)
Currently on arc 15 of Worm, and I agree that the idiot ball holding by the protectorate and other villain groups during the Slaughterhouse 9 campaign is pretty grating.
Not sure what exactly qualifies something as a rational fic... Skitter is certainly more rational than your average hero, but as far as I can tell, not explicitly invoking any discussion of logical fallacies, optimization, etc.
u/Anderkent [+4] (19 hours later)
I think you confuse nonobvious incentives for the idiot ball! It's been a while since I read arc 15, could you provide some examples?
A character acting in a way that doesn't support their (or their organisation's) declared goals is not necessarily holding the idiot ball.
u/None [+3] (11 hours later)
Currently on arc 15 of Worm, and I agree that the idiot ball holding by the protectorate and other villain groups during the Slaughterhouse 9 campaign is pretty grating.
arc 15
protectorate
idiot ball
arc 15