28 KiB
Rational Pokemon pre-chapter 5 discussion (also title change announcement!)
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Author: u/DaystarEld Pokémon Professor*
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URL: https://www.reddit.com/r/rational/comments/1w3pd4/rational_pokemon_prechapter_5_discussion_also/
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Score: 11
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Created: 2014-01-25T07:40:13
Post:
So I'm finally back in the states (and finally finished reading "Worm"), which means I can knuckle down and finish chapter 5, which is about 3/4 done.
Two things I wanted to discuss with you all first:
- The title has officially changed! "Rational Pokemon" was a placeholder more than anything, as when I started I had little more than vague ideas of an overall story coupled with some more specific irrational aspects of our favorite pocket monster universe that I wanted to address. Now that the story has more or less crystalized in my mind, I've decided on a much better title, which I hope you guys will like :)
Henceforth, "Rational Pokemon" is now titled "Pokemon: The Origin of Species."
- How to handle metamorphosis, or "evolution" as it's colloquially known in-world, is something I'm still wavering on. My thoughts are to either have it be a slow, steady progression of growth and change, meaning most pokemon simply continue to grow and develop new features over time (such as wings or extra arms). Alternatively I could stick to the system in the game, where pokemon utterly transform within seconds in a burst of energy and light.
The problems with the latter is it requires a rational (if not necessarily realistic) explanation for the many tangential details surrounding it. Such as: why do evolution stones or trading evolve certain pokemon? What's the energy they give off, and where does it come from? Can it be harnessed? Can it be interrupted, as in the games?
It's the kind of thing I can see myself going both ways on, so I thought I'd ask you guys and gals: which approach would you prefer to see as the "real" way evolution works, and why?
Comments:
u/Paradoxius [+11] (8 hours later)
You could have them go into an hour-long (or longer or shorter) coma to metamorph, during which they form a bioluminescent outer skin that stretches with the transformation.
You see, pokémon actually all share a tremendous amount of genetic material. All pokémon, at least by our world's definition, belong to the same species. Because of this, they need a secondary system of genetic material to control their form, a bit like epigenetics, except that it is totally physically separate from the normal genome, sort of like mitochondrial DNA, inherited from the mother. For simplicity, I will refer to the pokémon equivalent of DNA as PGM, pokémon gentic material, and the other system of genetic material as EGM, extra-genetic material.
In most pokémon, EGM is stored in glands until they reach a certain stage of maturity, at which point it is replicated and released. This induces the metamorphosis process. It should be noted that this does not occur at the same age in all specimens, but the condition of a pokémon's health. In fact, many pokémon go through their entire lives without metamorphosis; most pokémon exibit neoteny. It is theorized that metamorphosis developed as a stress reaction, expending a great deal of energy to make a pokémon stronger only when it was well enough fed to survive after the transformation, and was fighting enough to need it. Domesticated pokémon used for battling tend to metamorph much more than wild pokémon because of this.
As I said earlier, in most pokémon, metamorphosis is a response to being in combat a lot, but there are some other reasons for it to happen. The most common method trainers use to evolve pokémon is the utilization of so-called "evolutionary stones". Contrary to popular belief, most likely caused by the film industry's romanticization of the metamorphic process as a simple minute-long transformation capable of "saving the day" at a critical moment, a pokémon does not transform after simply touching a stone.
Actually, the stones are fossils containing archaic pokémon EGM. This EGM can be extracted from the stones and made viable, at which point it cam be fed to or injected intravenously into a pokémon, causing it to undergo a metamorphosis that it would not naturally be able to have. Such pokémon originally had normal metamorphosis, but evolved over time to lose it.
Another cause for evolution is love. "Baby pokémon", that is pokémon who do not exhibit neoteny and have not transformed, are the most typical examples of this type of metamorphosis. In the wild, they would transform as soon as they had enough food to sustain themselves. Trainers can provide them with this sustenance indefinitely, but the stress of a very young pokémon being raised by humans is usually enough to prevent the metamorphosis. As such, baby pokémon (and some others) transform only if they form a deep emotional bond to their trainers.
There are some other conditions of metamorphosis for some pokémon. A few need certain objects in order to transform. In this case the objects become incorporated into the final form; it is unknown how this dependency developed in nature. One fascinating case is that of the pokémon burmy, which covers itself in detrious it finds in it's environment. When female burmies evolve, this "cloak" becomes incorporated into their bodies.
There are many other causes and alleged causes for metamorphosis, but most are not understood or confirmed as actual causes.
TL;DR: What just happened? Where am I? Why is my nose bleeding?
u/DaystarEld [+6] Pokémon Professor (13 hours later)
You could have them go into an hour-long (or longer or shorter) coma to metamorph, during which they form a bioluminescent outer skin that stretches with the transformation.
I like it! I was thinking an egg-like shell (similar to the "mysterious" egg-like-cradle-thing babies come out of), but the bio-luminescent sac captures both the glow and brief torpidity.
For simplicity, I will refer to the pokémon equivalent of DNA as PGM, pokémon gentic material, and the other system of genetic material as EGM, extra-genetic material.
Totes stealing these terms and acronyms. BTW and THX.
Actually, the stones are fossils containing archaic pokémon EGM. This EGM can be extracted from the stones and made viable, at which point it cam be fed to or injected intravenously into a pokémon, causing it to undergo a metamorphosis that it would not naturally be able to have. Such pokémon originally had normal metamorphosis, but evolved over time to lose it.
I'm leaning more toward the idea that the stones are mineral-rich triggers for those EGMs that are usually found in the pokemon's natural habitat, which speed up the cycle of the pokemon's metamorphosis due to exposure over long periods: alternatively, trainers might build little "nests" of the stones, crushed into powder perhaps, for their pokemon to sleep on to accelerate the process.
There are some other conditions of metamorphosis for some pokémon. A few need certain objects in order to transform. In this case the objects become incorporated into the final form; it is unknown how this dependency developed in nature.
This I see borrowing the previous idea instead: those objects have the same EGMs needed for various pokemon to evolve into their own unique forms. So a King's Rock might be a fossilized gizzard from any pokemon that the King's Rock normally helps a pokemon evolve into, and when one of those pre-evolved forms comes into conact with it, the dormant EGMs are awakened.
TL;DR: What just happened? Where am I? Why is my nose bleeding?
Shhh... strokes hair No tears now... only Pokemon...
u/LordSwedish [+5] Q Continuum (an hour later)
I feel like the "flash of light evolution" is a bit to iconic to remove it outright though I understand your frustration with getting it to make sense.
u/None [+3] (7 hours later)
You don't have to stick faithfully to canon in every particular. But maybe you could say that as a Pokemon grows and ages, it naturally prepares to undergo metamorphosis like a tadpole into a frog. For some Pokemon this is a natural aging process, that, at a certain point, ends up happening really quickly, if not quite instantaneously. For others, they need specific, rare minerals that can only be found a few places. When these Pokemon are taken out of their natural habitats by humans, the humans have to supply these minerals themselves in the form of evolution stones.
As for trading...maybe certain Pokemon have spent enough time around humans that they evolved certain responses? Maybe those breeds were abused to evolve too quickly so they could be sold faster at a profit, which damaged their long-term reproductive viability and, so some Pokemon didn't evolve until they had undergone a trade...somehow...and so the only ones that could breed were the "failed" delayed evolution types...or something.
u/GopherAtl [+3] (8 hours later)
For trading evolution... I'd suggest having emotional security be a factor. The minute they're captured, the pokeball seems to hard-wire a bond to their owner in their minds. Being transferred away from that owner could be a strong emotional trigger for their evolution.
u/DaystarEld [+2] Pokémon Professor (13 hours later)
In the games, trading involves an electronic process to "transfer" the pokemon from one person's ownership to the next, and I think that's what triggers it. In my version I think I'm going to do something similar in regards to an unbrainwashing program that removes their obedience from their original trainer and replaces it with the new ones, which could trigger the trigger you're referring to. In the wild, this trigger might have occurred in the species when a mating partner or parent died.
u/DaystarEld [+2] Pokémon Professor (13 hours later)
I like the natural mineral idea for the evolutionary stones a lot: I was thinking something along those lines, like trainers forming a small nest of Fire Stones or whatever for their pokemon to sleep in to encourage their evolution, rather than simply touching it with one and having it suddenly evolve.
u/alexanderwales [+8] Time flies like an arrow (39 minutes later)
I very much prefer the flash of light and sudden, near-instant evolution. That's how it's presented in the show and game, and if it doesn't make sense ... well, it's your job to make it make sense.
u/DaystarEld [+3] Pokémon Professor (13 hours later)
I agree, it's much more entertaining to have the flash of light and near-instant form :) I'm still vacillating between the extremes of making the world more realistic or keeping it entertaining however, and wanted to know if any others found the idea of near-instant evolution worth dropping in pursuit of the former. I think we've found a good workaround though.
u/None [+2] (7 hours later)
The flash of light could be a physical response to sudden massive growth. Something like this, maybe?
u/DaystarEld [+1] Pokémon Professor (13 hours later)
Haha. I'll admit, I definitely had the mental image of Red and Blue grabbing Leaf when her magikarp starts glowing and tackling her behind some cover before it explosively evolves into a massive Gyarados.
u/ArmokGoB [+2] (17 hours later)
Hmm, an idea for a more realistic process looking roughly the same: Molting, with the light being the old body essentially burning in a controlled manner. As in, the evolved from grows inside the old one and then it's shed like a gory shell.
u/DaystarEld [+1] Pokémon Professor (17 hours later)
I like it :) Might not end up using it, but it would work.
u/someonewrongonthenet [+2] (a day later)
Random idea: Could have wild pokemon grow slowly in a naturalistic fashion, while caught pokemon evolve in short bursts because of something related to being digitized in poke-ball form?
That would help condense the number of "weird" things you have to explain (like where all that mass comes from, assuming you actually want conservation of mass to generally be part of the physics) into the pokeball technology.
(Note: I've only played the games, so I'm not sure if wild pokemon ever evolved in canon...but wild pokemon never evolved in game)
u/DaystarEld [+1] Pokémon Professor (2 days later)
Hmm. This is an interesting idea, actually... the more I think about it, the more I like it. Since trained pokemon spend such little time in the world, and are effectively frozen in time when in their pokeballs, it would be hard to really show them growing and changing much as they age.
But it could well be that the energy from the pokeball, at the right time and circumstance, triggers an abrupt and massive metamorphosis.
I like it a lot. I think you just changed my mind on what I'd be doing with evolution in this story :) Thanks!
u/someonewrongonthenet [+1] (2 days later)
Cool, I feel important!
Come to think of it, pokeballs almost have to be involved, since some pokemon evolve via trading.
ha, can't wait till the ethical implications dawn on him...
u/DaystarEld [+2] Pokémon Professor (2 days later)
Indeed, in the video game the trading evolution is described as resulting from the energy used in transferring them, though why that would be different than the energy used in transferring from PC to pokeball and whatnot I'm not sure :P Just another of those illogical game oddities.
u/fortycakes [+1] (4 days later)
The situations where a Pokémon would evolve are nearly all situations when you'd be recalling them to a Pokéball:
- After a battle where they've reached some trigger threshold (often XP, sometimes happiness/etc)
- After giving the Pokémon a certain item and then recalling it (this is the one with the least evidence)
- After receiving them in a trade (optionally with a trigger like holding a Steel Coat)
And while writing this post, I also thought of some more stuff:
Pokémon with odd evolutions to look at:
- Shelmet/Karrablast only evolve when traded for each other
- Nincada splits when it evolves into Ninjask and Shedinja
- Mantyke only evolves on level up if there's a Remoraid in the party
- Pancham only evolves on level up if there's any Dark-type in the party
- Inkay only evolves on level up if the 3DS is upside down.
- Sliggoo only evolves on level up if it's raining
- Feebas only evolves if its Beauty is high enough
- What the heck is up with Eevees?
Also, the original Japanese term is shinka - this can be translated to "evolution" but also true value, progress or apotheosis. Possibly it was translated as "evolution" from whoever originally researched the process?
u/DaystarEld [+1] Pokémon Professor (4 days later)
The situations where a Pokémon would evolve are nearly all situations when you'd be recalling them to a Pokéball:
Yes, this is exactly what I thought of too :) It works really well.
After receiving them in a trade (optionally with a trigger like holding a Steel Coat)
Trading is going to be done differently in this: it's basically going to be a de-programming/re-programming to forget the pokemon's training and attachment to their previous trainer and replace it with one to the new trainer. So basically the mental trauma of going through that is what triggers certain pokemon to evolve when released from their pokeball for the first time after being "traded."
Shelmet/Karrablast only evolve when traded for each other
This will have to involve simply interacting to the point where the Karrablast can steal the Shelmet's shell, then attemping to withdraw them afterward.
u/OffColorCommentary [+2] (8 days later)
You're going to run into even worse problems with the laws of thermodynamics as soon as you find a Pokemon that learns Ice Beam. And more problems with any telekinetic Pokemon. I'd recommend looking for all the places that you're going to run into this sort of problem and coming up with some alternate physics that cover all of them.
Given your new title, it sounds like you should focus on evolution, ecology, and biology as the sciences that are considered sacred, and let physics slip.
If I were to take a stab at it, I'd introduce a number of new atom-sized particles that bond correctly with normal matter but have their own nonsense properties. Like constantly generating electrons, or forming additional bonds at a distance, or absorbing heat. Just because breaking the laws of physics is on the table as an evolutionary advantage, doesn't mean evolution will behave any different than normally.
u/DaystarEld [+1] Pokémon Professor (8 days later)
What I hope to do is introduce the fact that pokemon are in fact all one alien microscopic species that came to Earth and bonded with matter and energy in a way that alters it, and does so in a way that allows its "host species," what most people think of when they envision pokemon, to subvert the "regular" laws of physics.
Does that make sense as a basis to explain their "superpowers," or do you think the separate introduction of new atom-sized particles are also necessary?
u/OffColorCommentary [+2] (8 days later)
I like the alien microscopic species angle. That covers things like why pokemon look like turtles and pigeons of all things.
I think you do need a way for the aliens to break the laws of physics otherwise. Worm had the aliens span multiple parallel universes as a way to handwave all the apparent violations of conservation of energy (energy is still conserved, it's just being brought in from a vast pool nearby). What you use for that is up to you: I think psychic and ice type pokemon are probably the biggest ones to watch out for. Worm's approach handles psychics but not ice.
u/DaystarEld [+1] Pokémon Professor (8 days later)
Yep, and since there are multiple dimensions in the pokemon world, I'd planned on borrowing that idea as well.
Psychic pokemon are one of the few that actually influence some of the humans around them, altering them in a way that creates a mental link between the trainer and their pokemon.
My idea for pokemon with ice powers are based on the concept of light or lasors that can slow atoms to the point of freezing. There's some recent technology that hints at such a possibility, though obviously it's nowhere near advanced enough for the kinds of magical feats seen in pokemon. Still, it strikes me as substantive enough to be a "bending" of reality rather than an outright break of it.
http://www.fastcoexist.com/1681662/the-real-freeze-ray-we-can-now-use-lasers-to-drop-temperatures
u/lehyde [+1] Nudist Beach (3 hours later)
For this near instant metamorphosis I could imagine that the Pokémon has to save up the energy over time. So that's because they have to get train first. The stones would then indeed carry the necessary energy to do that immediately for Pokémon that don't save up the energy by themselves. (They swallow the stones.) Now the question is why different stones produce different metamorphoses.
u/jrae316 [+1] (3 hours later)
my mind is stuck on that story of the butterflies that were mostly white (with some being black), until pollution started happening then it reversed, then reversed again when the city started cleaning itself up...could there be something in that?
the pokemon is ready to evolve/adapt in terms of energy storage, but needs the stone to act as an indicator of what the environment is like. if we tell eevee "the whole world is like water" then it adapts to it become vapoureon; "the whole world is darkness" then it becomes umbreon. the stones dont have any energy themselves, they just tell the energy in the pokemon what form to take.
maybe?
u/lehyde [+3] Nudist Beach (5 hours later)
The butterfly story is more of an example for classic adaption. The black butterflies were more successful and their genes spread. And then this happened to the white ones again.
But I think metamorphosis that is triggered by the environment also exists in nature. If nothing else the stones could contain the necessary hormones.
u/Anakiri [+1] (17 hours later)
I think that gradual progression would work better for the story you are writing.
With the Charmander oil, you've established that this is a world that is realistic enough that I should already be able to solve some of the challenges in the story. Fire isn't something you can throw; there must be something else going on here. Evolution doesn't work that way; the common schlub in that world is using the word wrong.
Oh, but of course a Magikarp can pull 200 kg and 20,000 joules of light out of a pocket dimension. Why shouldn't it? If you're willing to handwave that, how can I trust that you wouldn't be willing to handwave the fact that clearly you can throw fire, the next time you present me with a challenge?
Either the world should be obviously fundamentally different, or it should be as similar as possible. Even if it means dumping things from the setting.
u/DaystarEld [+1] Pokémon Professor (18 hours later)
This is exactly my dilemma: I can't explain everything that happens in pokemon rationally, because I could no more explain how a pokeball really works than I could make one myself. But that makes it hard to draw the line between what's too "integral" to the pokemon world and what's worthy of revision: if I get rid of pokeballs, it's not really "pokemon" anymore.
Is the distinction, to you, that one is magical technology, and thus, however improbable, hypothetically possible, while pokemon evolution is biological and thus isn't?
u/None [+3] (19 hours later)
It's probably important to note that in a work like HPMOR the magic isn't explained. The main character wonders about it. He tests the rules. He even detects some patterns based on his normal-world knowledge that gives him advantages over other wizards. But there's no explanation (yet). And do we really expect EY to come up with an explanation that actually makes sense given our world's rules? Either he's going to posit a change to our world's rules that make something like magic work, or the story will end with the magic never fully explained. That seems to work fine for that story, so why not for yours?
u/DaystarEld [+1] Pokémon Professor (a day later)
I agree: I'm not aiming to make pokemon "make sense." As far as I'm aware, that's impossible without utterly changing what pokemon are: for all intents and purposes, magical beings. I'm simply trying to make it 1) more realistic where I can and 2) more logically consistent with itself.
That's one of the reasons I plan to focus very little on natural laws in the story: quite simply, they don't all quite apply the same way in pokemon. They can't. And without someone from our world to notice them being broken, there's no way to really bring up the discrepancy.
Instead I plan on focusing on logical, psychological, and sociological issues, which are much more translatable from one world to the next.
u/Anakiri [+1] (18 hours later)
Basically, yes. In Chapter 1 and 2, you taught me that that is how your world works.
I wouldn't have batted an eye if you had instead told me that Squritle can spray out more water than its own mass. Then flashy evolution wouldn't be a problem. But that's not how you trained me.
u/DaystarEld [+1] Pokémon Professor (a day later)
I wouldn't have batted an eye if you had instead told me that Squritle can spray out more water than its own mass. Then flashy evolution wouldn't be a problem. But that's not how you trained me.
Hmm. When did I establish or fail to establish this, exactly? I feel like you're making assumptions outside of what I've written as yet.
The problem I think is that our minds are capable of accepting certain illogical things much more than others. A squirtle spraying out more water than their mass seems capable of holding? That's a problem. It's gotta be magic: there's just no way we can wrap our brains around a 3 foot turtle creating enough water for it to swim in, and with no apparent loss of mass to boot. Fill a pitcher with water, and that's all it holds: end of story.
On the other hand, we're willing to accept a pikachu generating thunderbolts much more readily. Some chemicals, some biological charge, and boom, lightning. We don't really conceive of energy the same way we do the other states of matter, like solid and liquid, so it bothers us less that a 3 foot rodent could generate more energy than his entire body contains, by many orders of magnitude.
So what solution do you propose? Because if you're not expecting Conservation of Mass/Energy to be broken in this story, I'm curious to know how you're expecting any electric pokemon to function, let alone the psychics that can telekinetically move objects with their mind.
u/Anakiri [+2] (a day later)
My assumptions (and you're right, they are assumptions) come from a number of factors.
First, it's the default position as a reader. Fiction is like reality unless noted. Until you tell me otherwise, I will assume Earth rules apply.
Second, I am learning from Red, the reasonably intelligent viewpoint character. Red thinks "types" are silly. This tells me that it's fine that I'm thinking more realistically than the games. Red is surprised to read that Charmander's life depends on the flame, and he expects that to be wrong. This tells me that Pokemon probably don't depend on really weird woo-physics. Red is surprised when Charmander just throws fire, and he goes looking for an explanation. This tells me that I should be surprised when Pokemon do things that are apparently impossible, and I should expect explanations for them. Red immediately finds an Earth-reasonable explanation. You're heavily reinforcing my Earthly expectations, and you're not doing much to make me think otherwise.
Third, compounding all of that, you dedicated an entire chapter to this sequence, right at the beginning. I have to believe that the way you're shaping my beliefs about your world is probably important.
It's still early enough to back out of that without being too clunky, though it'd be best if you trashed those expectations right at the start. The solution, simply enough, is to massively violate Earthly expectations, and have every character be unimpressed, because that's just how the world works. I need to see Squirtle filling a pitcher without losing half its weight. I need to see a Pikachu throwing megajoules around like nothing. I need to see a Kadabra casually tossing an Onix around with the power of its spoon. Or, hell, I need to see a Magikarp pulling 200 kg and 20,000 joules of light out of nowhere. If you don't want me to expect reality, you need to start noting the ways this world is not like reality, preferably sooner rather than later.
u/DaystarEld [+1] Pokémon Professor (a day later)
Fair enough, but your review of the factors seems to be missing one.
While the existence of humans indicates that many "Earth rules" probably apply, the existence of pokemon indicates that, if this is Earth, these beings are not earthly in the way we understand the term: Earth rules may exist, but they don't necessarily apply to pokemon.
For proof, look at what we've seen of charmander: yes, he produces fire in a way that makes sense to earthlings, and yes, that fire is flung in a way that makes sense on Earth, opposed to some other planet or universe where fire could be "thrown." But that fire is produced at the end of his tail, fire that can grow to quite a blaze.
And yet it doesn't burn him.
Flesh and blood charmander may be, but that flesh is not Earth flesh, and it does not interact with energy/fire the same way we'd expect Earth flesh to.
Subtle, I grant you. I'll try to provide a more massive violation of earthly expectations soon :)
u/ArmokGoB [+1] (a day later)
I can explain pokeballs a number of ways, most of them involving using components harvested from dead pokemon, and for the remaining minerals that don't occur on earth.