17 KiB
[HF] The physics of magic [PDF]
-
Author: u/traverseda With dread but cautious optimism*
-
URL: http://rhombik.com/~miranda/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/The-Physics-of-Magic.pdf
-
Score: 6
-
Created: 2014-02-09T17:46:26
Post:
Comments:
u/None [+3] (3 hours later)
A problem I've realized I'm having with my own writing is that I keep writing scenes that I think "ought" to be in the story rather than just getting to the stuff that interests me. The result is that the writing is difficult and slow and bad, and the audience probably doesn't find those scenes any more interesting than I do. As a result, I'm going back over my stories and throwing out everything that I wrote because I thought it was supposed to happen. Instead, I'm going to do whatever interests me, and I'm going to listen to the part of my brain that gets bored, that complains the scene isn't working, that feels like it's being forced to work instead of the writing flowing naturally.
I think this story could use the same. Skimming farther down, it looks like it gets sort of interesting. There's magic and monsters and stuff. Sounds neat. But do I really want to slog through pages of...I don't know what, exactly, to get to that?. Girls at school getting to know each other and learning about drinking? Sort of like The Bell Jar but bad? I wonder how much of what's been written really interested in the author, how much flowed naturally out of what interested her about the story she conceived and how much she had to force out because she thought it was supposed to be there.
Also, is it just me, or does it go from Chapter One to Chapter Three with no Chapter Two in between?
u/traverseda [+2] With dread but cautious optimism (an hour later)
The awesome starts at ~chapter 3.
u/Jon_Freebird [+1] (23 days later)
I really enjoyed that, is there more anywhere?
u/traverseda [+1] With dread but cautious optimism (23 days later)
She's working on a sequel. But not yet, no.
u/Jon_Freebird [+1] (23 days later)
I'll look forward to seeing it when it comes out then. I know there have been a lot of negative comments on here but would you pass on that I really enjoyed it? I know how tough it can be to keep writing when you keep hearing negative things.
u/traverseda [+1] With dread but cautious optimism (23 days later)
I've passed the whole thread on.
u/Traiden04 [+2] (2 hours later)
First impression wise; you could do with an editor to help smooth out the word flow. Right now it feels just a bit stilted and not much has been done to frame the world we are in a little more.
I do not know where we are, and I was not engaged enough to invest the time to get to the explanation of the world we are reading about. After reading the first few paragraphs I sorta can guess that we are in a boarding school, maybe? This is set in the modern day, but the characters prefer to use much older styles. I don't know why this is or what this means for the setting, it just feels out of place and takes me out of the story even further.
It is not very clear on what exactly is going on to the detriment of the story. I honestly don't feel like sticking to the third chapter with how the first five paragraphs are written.
I really don't mean for this to be too harsh on you, it is great that you want to write and to get your work out there. Just find someone to pre-read for you and to work on making the writing flow a little better. Keep working at it!
u/traverseda [+2] With dread but cautious optimism (2 hours later)
It's not mine. I am running the website for the author though.
How many books have you picked up that were engrossing from the very first paragraph? Like actual novels, not web-fiction or fan-fiction?
/r/rational seems to trend towards fiction that you can just pick up and start reading. Fiction that doesn't require any kind of investment, and a lot of short stories. I think the industry in general is probably going that route, but I don't think it's a very good trend.
It's had a lot of pre-reading. Given other peoples reactions, I'm inclined to think it's more about your reading style then the content of the book. You try to target everyone and you end up pleasing no one.
u/alexanderwales [+6] Time flies like an arrow (6 hours later)
Having had a very small hand in going through the slush pile at a small publishing company, and a degree in English - the first sentence/paragraph/chapter is the most important one in the entire novel. If you look at readership statistics of pretty much anything people are far, far more likely to drop off at the very first part than at any other part. Here's a traffic breakdown by chapter for the last nine days of a novella-length fanfic that I wrote. That very first chapter is where people decide whether they want to read it or not. You can see similar stats if you look at any of the traffic stats that Wildbow has posted for Worm. The first sentence/paragraph/chapter of a book is absolutely the most important, because that's where people will decide whether they're going to keep going.
Now with that said, I don't actually think that it's as big of a problem here. For me, the part where I actually got interested was halfway down the page - the idea of a medieval person going to university in modern clothing is intriguing and makes me want to know more. If I were editing, I might move that part up to the beginning, then describe the room in contrast with home, then have a conversation with mother and father ... but that's based solely on what I find interesting and what grabs me and says "this is worth continued reading".
u/None [+1] (8 hours later)
Yes--with a bit more tone and voice, the narrator going through the experience of moving into their dorm and casually revealing that they're from the medieval era through their natural thought process would work fine as an opening hook. Though I would cut the conversation with mother and father altogether. It's not doing anything.
u/traverseda [+0] With dread but cautious optimism (6 hours later)
I suspect the standards for web fiction and dead-tree are very different. I think physics is aiming for dead-tree.
It looks like a reasonable trade-off to me. It's used using a set of tropes that don't mesh very well with a lot of this audience.
It's trying to be rational, but to aim for more mainstream appeal. Not specifically targeting white 30-something IT professionals, which is what most of lesswrong (and presumably this sub) is made up of.
If people can give saga of soul (and its weird-ass formatting) a try, I'd hope they could stick through the first few chapters of this. I was told that hpmor doesn't pick up until like chapter 15 (I don't remember the actual chapter).
u/alexanderwales [+5] Time flies like an arrow (7 hours later)
Well, I would actually consider HPMOR's major flaw to be the first few chapters specifically because they're weak and tonally off compared to the rest of the book. I'd be really curious to see the traffic stats for HPMOR to see what kind of a drop-off it's getting. Of course, word-of-mouth is the God of marketing, so if you can get that going you don't have to worry about a slow opening.
You're right that dead trees and web fiction have different standards, but I'd actually argue that it's more important in the dead-trees world. Either you're talking about someone picking up a book in a bookstore and reading the first few pages before deciding whether to buy it, or you're talking about someone reading the first few sample pages on Amazon before deciding whether to buy it. In both cases, there's an extra barrier that's not there in web fiction. If you want to listen to real, actual professional writers talk about how important beginnings are, listen to this 15 minute episode of Writing Excuses.
And like I said, it's not that big of a problem here (as I'm still reading). I'm just arguing in general that beginnings have to carry a whole lot of weight. They're the pitch that you're giving the reader that says "this is what you will be reading". Word of mouth can make up for a poor beginning, but it's hard to get word of mouth in the first place if the recommenders aren't going to bite.
u/None [+1] (8 hours later)
Worm also has a weak opening. I haven't been able to get into it as a result. I wouldn't have even been able to get into HPMOR if I had thought it was going to be an actual story rather than a series of thinly veiled cute and funny lessons on rationality and science. What is it about amateur fiction and bad openings? I've struggled with this myself....
u/alexanderwales [+2] Time flies like an arrow (9 hours later)
There are a lot of small traps that amateurs fall into. The biggest difference between the professional and the amateur is (usually) years of experience and a much larger level of feedback in the form of beta readers and (especially) editors. There are also a lot of gatekeepers that tend to admit only those in the top 1% of all writers into the realm of "professional". So for those various reasons, I expect amateur works to be worse than professional works (though of course that's just a general rule, and there are a few exceptions to it).
As to the question of why writers tend to fall into the slow opening trap, I think it's because they feel the need to set up all of the cool things that they have ideas for - and if you're doing science fiction or fantasy, they feel the need to set up all of the rules and characters to get the reader invested. It's a pretty easy trap to fall into.
u/None [+2] (3 hours later)
The very first sentence made me want to stop reading, and the second and third sentences reinforced that feeling. Not every story needs to start with something going bang--look at Star Wars: A New Hope, which has a painfully slow opening. But based on a skim, this story has absolutely nothing happening for several pages. That's not an opening; that's just stuff that needs to be cut.
u/traverseda [+1] With dread but cautious optimism (3 hours later)
It's a pretty standard way of opening a novel. But I'll forward your criticism along.
I think that it's mostly just a cultural issue. Am I correct in presuming that you don't read a lot of dead-tree books?
u/None [+2] (3 hours later)
I don't think it's standard at all. A slow, mundane opening is different from an opening where nothing is happening in terms of plot or character and we have no idea what's going on and no reason to care. Also, the first sentence needs to die so badly.
No, I mostly read dead tree stuff. I really don't know how reading long texts on a screen ever became popular. A story has to be good if I'm going to read it on the computer.
u/Traiden04 [+2] (3 hours later)
I would like to say that it feels like you are being aggressive in your comment about reading a lot of books. In response to your question about the quantity of books I have read, I have read a lot books of both the dead-tree and digital. Part of being a writer is reading a lot of all kinds of books and learning what works and what does not when you are doing your own writing. This story just does not have that same quality to it that encourages people, like myself, to read it.
u/traverseda [+1] With dread but cautious optimism (6 hours later)
Weird. It did go through a lot of testing, and the pacing wasn't something I saw anyone complain about. It seemed pretty average to me.
I thought it might be a difference in culture. Dead tree vs being able to pick of an existing set of characters and tropes.
No offense intended. Just trying to figure out whether it was part of the fanfiction culture or not. Probably not a culture thing though.
u/Traiden04 [+2] (3 hours later)
I have picked up lots of books that draw me in with just the first few paragraphs. I want to feel invested when I read something, and all I am saying is that his story does not have that draw to it for me.
u/traverseda [+1] With dread but cautious optimism (3 hours later)
I get what you're saying. I'm just trying to understand the context. "starts off slow" isn't a criticism I've heard much before. Fanfic can set you right into a world, because you know the settings and characters. Beyond that, I'm not sure that it's reasonable to expect every good book to start out instantly.
u/Traiden04 [+3] (3 hours later)
This does not strike me as fanfiction, but an original work. Unless you are telling me that it is fanfiction of something. Fanfiction can cheat a little for establishing a setting, most of the work has already been done by the original author and the fan writer only needs to reference the framing of the work to say, "This is $Harry_Potter_Setting."
A new book with a new setting needs to take some time to write about and set up the world we are in. Starting with something familiar to the expected readers and expanding to the unknown. Something common to most people, like moving away from family to go to collage can be a good starting point but we need to know how much of this is like our own world and how much it is not. The story, I feel, fails at this by making to many assumptions on the part of the reader. It is starting to cold, and we don't have any reference point to latch onto.
u/traverseda [+1] With dread but cautious optimism (6 hours later)
How long do you think is reasonable for such a set up period?
u/alexanderwales [+3] Time flies like an arrow (10 hours later)
For reference, the first Harry Potter book does its setup in the first chapter, and slowly introduces the mysterious - but I've seen to done in a variety of ways. What you really don't want is to explain your magic system right at the beginning (which this book doesn't - and I think the slow introduction works here, though I'll wait until I'm at the end to give my full thoughts).
Mr. and Mrs. Dursley, of number four, Privet Drive, were proud to say that they were perfectly normal, thank you very much. They were the last people you'd expect to be involved in anything strange or mysterious, because they didn't hold with such nonsense.
And then we get a couple paragraphs of description of the Dursleys, a single sentence about an owl flying past the window, and then things start to get weird.
I personally think starting cold works pretty well here. You want a slow introduction of magic and its rules, because again, infodumps are terrible.
u/None [+2] (15 hours later)
On the other hand, HP is actually starting relatively quickly. Rowling starts with a prologue showing Weird Cool Stuff Happening, and then moves into a first chapter that immediately establishes how boring and normal we all are, thus immediately establishing contrast and leaving the reader wanting more.
u/None [+1] (3 hours later)
For me in this case, "starts off slow" means I would cut the entire first chapter (second? it just skips to the third chapter). It doesn't do...anything. You could have a chapter that's just about a girl going to a new school, I guess, but in that case it would need a voice. The narrator is so bland. I don't really have a sense of her. And so the entire first (second?) chapter is just a totally mundane scene filtered through blandness. It's nothing I would try to save though....
u/Gurkenglas [+1] (3 days later)
u/CeruleanTresses [+1] (7 days later)
[Probably because:] (#s "He was the target of a bunch of fire and lightning, and unless I'm mistaken, she would have needed physical contact to Walk with him. She probably would have been killed by a stray bolt if she tried that. Plus he had magical shields up, which may or may not have prevented her from Walking him.")
u/Gurkenglas [+1] (7 days later)
u/CeruleanTresses [+1] (9 days later)
[Spoiler] (#s "That's only if she had perfect knowledge of what would happen, though. She couldn't have known for sure that he'd be in a position where she could Walk him out. I can see how it would make sense, from her perspective, to prioritize giving him back in combat ability.")
u/KJ6BWB [+2] (11 days later)
She followed through with the decision that she made earlier. She told her friend, "If X, I'll Y because Z." X happened, so just in case Z, she Y'd. I don't know how to put in a spoiler here, so I won't say anything else. :)