14 KiB
[Q] What sorts I tells could two members of a secret society use to rapidly identify each other while remaing a secret from other societies and the general public?
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Author: u/AmeteurOpinions Finally, everyone was working together.*
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URL: https://www.reddit.com/r/rational/comments/1yggzo/q_what_sorts_i_tells_could_two_members_of_a/
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Score: 6
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Created: 2014-02-20T17:48:14
Post:
A codeword makes sense, but it's vulnerable to eavesdropping. A special piece of jewelry could work, except that physical objects could be lost, or stolen (or intentionally discarded to escape). Maybe a perfume? But smells are somewhat subjective.
It's just tricky.
Comments:
u/None [+12] (an hour later)
[deleted]
u/Escapement [+6] Ankh-Morpork City Watch (4 hours later)
Yeah, I don't think that any plan for having a secret organization that starts with "First, we give all the people in the organization a set sign/countersign method that they all use and recognize together without variation such that anyone who learns it could successfully impersonate a member of the organization." seems good. One wonders what the purpose of such recognitions would be - the more people each individual knows in the org, the more they can betray if they are a traitor from their initial recruit or later become compromised.
Basically, any particular set shibboleth for the entire group is likely to be more problematic than it's worth, IMO.
If you were really dedicated to this idea of having to have a set piece of ID, which I think is not a positive approach, one thing not mentioned elsewhere in these comments is that in the modern day world you could probably seriously write software to use modern cell-phones wi-fi comm features to make a handshaking software specific to your society that is provably secure to most things; in this day and age two or more people in the same crowded room glancing at their smartphones seems unlikely to specifically attract attention. It would be basically impossible to have this method triggered by accident, but it would leave physical evidence on your phone that might be detectable if you don't have the whole thing encrypted (though if people are taking apart your cell phone drive they might very well apply lead-pipe decryption methods to your person, of course).
u/trifith [+3] Man plans, god laughs. Like the ant and the grasshopper. (21 hours later)
Emergency coms. Suppose Agent X is not yet outed, but believes he is under suspicion, and cut off from his usual contacts Agent W and Agent Y. If he has a way to identify Agent Q, who is somewhere in the general population, but not known to him, X can secure the assistance of Agent Q, and through him Agents P and R.
If placed under duress, Agent X can only ID Agents W and Y, and an ID signal, or if your group is smart, a FAKE id signal that lets Agent Q know that X is compromised without revealing the ID of X, or Q. Then the loss of X can be passed through the entire org structure using normal coms.
u/KJ6BWB [+9] (3 hours later)
There's no need to reinvent the wheel. Just look at what Freemasons did for years when the Catholic church made it illegal, or back after the Lindbergh baby was kidnapped and crazy people were blaming it on Freemasons and people didn't feel like they could be as open as they are now. "Do you like to travel?" "Every month." My wife has a little dog about this high." "Oh? How do you spell its name?" "No, I've talked enough, you begin, how's life treating you?" Call and response -- they're things that normal people would say to each other, but the responses and the pattern of the conversation and what's asked next along with casual hand gestures made at the same time make it obvious what's going on to someone who knows, while appearing perfectly innocent to someone who doesn't know.
There is no "rapid" identification, however, unless you go with some sort of fairly obvious thing, like a red ribbon pinned to a hat during the French revolution or something like that. Even then, you run the risk of someone thinking that it looks fashionable and copying it, so you're going to have to maintain some sort of call and response check just to see if the obvious signal really is signaling what you think it's signaling.
Usually, throughout history, when you have an obvious signal for quick identification, it's fairly well known among "certain people" and some of those certain people who feel opposite may choose to wear an opposing signal, like a blue ribbon, for instance.
u/alexanderwales [+6] Time flies like an arrow (3 hours later)
Have a physical object that keys into a codeword generation algorithm. As a simple example, we will both wear a special lapel pin that is either red, green, or blue. When you meet me, you say a two word phrase. The first word starts with R, G, or B (matching the color of my lapel pin) and the second word starts with R, G, or B and matches the color of
myyour lapel pin.Therefor you need to both have a special object and know the method of code generation - simply eavesdropping won't work, because I can change the color of my lapel pin at will.
u/trifith [+3] Man plans, god laughs. Like the ant and the grasshopper. (20 minutes later)
I read once where they use Morse code and a ring. Twirl the ring clockwise for dots and counterclockwise for dashes, have a short ID phrase to spell out. Easy enough to disguise as a nervous habit, and needs no special equipment beyond any common ring. It could still be eavesdropped, if somebody is aware it's a communication method, but it can also be used to send more complex messages discretely.
u/None [+2] (52 minutes later)
This reminds me of the way a couple people tried to cheat in Who Wants To Be A Millionaire.
After winning £1,000,000, the payout was suspended when Ingram was accused of cheating by having his wife, Diana, and an accomplice, Tecwen Whittock, cough as Ingram announced the correct answer
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Ingram
Of course, the key to success in this is subtlety and this couple was anything but.
u/AmeteurOpinions [+1] Finally, everyone was working together. (52 minutes later)
Pretty good, but not fast enough. Each letter of the alphabet would be around two or three turns, which means spelling out a set of initials or something would take well over six or even seven seconds while still being discreet (would look a little suspicious to have a guy twisting his ring really fast, and could even harm the agent).
Maybe plain secret hand signals are best.
u/trifith [+2] Man plans, god laughs. Like the ant and the grasshopper. (an hour later)
Call it preliminary ID then. I signal you one letter, you reply with the correct counter letter, we each know the other is at least possibly a member. You can then move to a more secure area for further identification before discussing anything important. Do it while having a completely innocent conversation about something entirely unrelated. In the story it was used in just such a way for a wide spread, compartmentalized group.
u/ArmokGoB [+3] (an hour later)
Have two separate tells, each which can contain a short "message"; the passcode is gotten by XORing them.
Some kind of design that can be assembled but it takes time/information; a specific colour-combination of clothes, a faked birthmark from makup.
Behaviors that can be turned on and of instantly but you can ell when someone who's trying to mimic them doesn't have much practice. An accent, a pace of walking, or a facial expression.
Non-literal and padded passphrases; not telling a specific joke, but any joke on a specific subject followed by any joke on another specific subject. Or simply take the first letter of each noun.
u/EliezerYudkowsky [+4] Godric Gryffindor (2 days later)
Make an argument containing a single, subtle complex logical flaw and several correct complex arguments and emotional red flags. Use a different argument each time. Only someone possessing the actual skill of ignoring emotional red flags and zeroing in on the one mistaken part of the complex argument will be able to object to the correct part of your statement, identifying them as a co-conspirator. Likewise only a conspirator would be able to construct a complex multi-part argument containing exactly one real flaw.
u/alexanderwales [+8] Time flies like an arrow (2 days later)
Of course, this doesn't work when I want to organize a conspiracy of dunces.
u/AmeteurOpinions [+3] Finally, everyone was working together. (2 days later)
Speed is an important factor. Agents need to be able to enter entirely different cities and start cooperating with each other on sight, or as near to that as is possible.
u/alexanderwales [+3] Time flies like an arrow (2 days later)
The more quick the method is, the easier it's going to be for the opposition to break/subvert, short of the method being accompanied by two-factor authentication by computer (which the conspirators don't need to worry all that much about).
u/Harkins [+3] (3 days later)
And then you will have selected a conspiracy of people who are deeply naive or who enjoy bickering with idiots, because cutting to the heart of someone's argument basically never results in a worthwhile discussion.
u/SoundLogic2236 [+1] (2 days later)
I feel like it would be difficult to manage to due this without detection in a reliable manner for quickly identifying co-conspirators. An enemy group could adopt the heuristic of 'if they make complex arguments with lots of emotional stuff' they are probably foes. They wouldn't necessarily be able to FAKE the signal, but detecting it could prove rather easy.
u/Mr_Smartypants [+1] (5 days later)
And spend the rest of your life trying to figure out if you're talking with a co-conspirator or a sloppy arguer.
u/mcgruntman [+2] (4 hours later)
I think most of the things mentioned so far haven't been particularly discreet. Off the top of my head I would go for a call and response involving specific sequences of blinking and looking side-to-side / up and down. To observe this you'd have to have direct line of sight to a person's eyes - so to observe the whole exchange you'd need multiple vantage points, or to be right next to them. It's also pretty subtle, people blink and look around all the time.
u/KJ6BWB [+2] (7 hours later)
I don't think that would work in most social situations. When you're introduced to someone, usually you talk for a minute before you go off and meet other people at a party and if you were blinking and looking up/down/side-to-side, it'd make you look shifty (untrustworthy) and they'd wonder what you were doing.
u/mcgruntman [+2] (8 hours later)
It doesn't have to be obvious at all. It's unusual to hold total eye contact with someone, you tend to break and look to the side relatively frequently. It would be easy to work a simple code into an introduction such as blink - look down - blink - look back - hold - look left - look back - hold - blink twice. If you actually watch people they do do all this stuff. The only difficulty is learning to perform and recognise the code accurately.
u/KJ6BWB [+2] (12 hours later)
See if you can talk your way into a corporate boardroom. Looking to the side in a personal conversation between two "high-social" individuals means that you basically acknowledge the other person as socially superior, unless you're deliberately breaking eye contact because your peripheral vision saw something that you want to call attention to. You don't have to look directly at the eyes, you can look around at a person's face, but you can't look off to the side, or away from their face, especially frequently -- the social rules say that this means you're politely saying that the conversation is uninteresting or otherwise isn't holding your full concentration for whatever reason. :)
u/someonewrongonthenet [+2] (a day later)
I mean, anything subtle enough to be mistaken for ordinary if you don't know what you're looking for will do.
"Hey, nice weeether we're having, huh?"
"Yeah, but it's really weeendy".
Code: Use "weee" a couple of times in a sentence.
Outside observer - you mispronounced a syllable, or have a funny accent. The possibilities are endless.
For uber-secrecy have a combination of normal attributes unlikely in one person - left ear pierced, ring on right pointer finger, whistling a popular tune, wearing a green belt...even if someone perceives that a signal exists, they won't immediately comprehend all the factors that go into reproducing it accurately.
u/Rouninscholar [+2] (6 days later)
Three layer multi system identification. First is appearance. Have three or four tells. Blue necklace silver ring on left middle finger (and only that finger on that hand). Hold your right hand so your thumb is under the middle and pointer finger, causing those two fingers to be offset. (In case you are undercover or have lost your other identifying marks) A symbol displayed, pin, necklace, ring, tattoo, shirt, whatever.
Second is verbal. Question and answer.
Q: I like your hair. A The left side is a little long. Q: I'm looking for a nearby restaurant, any suggestions? A: I'm not hungry right now, sorry. Q: what time is it? A: what is your name?
The third is a code based on names. Say "my name is X," and they respond with "my name is Y, nice to meet you."
X=mark, Y=Edward. X= Timmy, Y=Lamont. Etc etc.
u/None [+2] (7 days later)
Establish new codes at regular intervals by a cryptographically secure method, e.g. one month it will be red scarves, another it will be bandaids on the left hand.
Then, once you have identified the person visually have a call and response phrase that is unique enough to prevent false positives (e.g. what brings you to town? Visiting my cousin Margaret)
u/AmeteurOpinions [+1] Finally, everyone was working together. (7 days later)
Single point of failure on the procedure to set the costuming code.
u/None [+1] (a day later)
Exchange pokemon friend codes.