24 KiB
Pokemon: OoS Pre-6 Update and Discussion
-
Author: u/DaystarEld Pokémon Professor*
-
URL: https://www.reddit.com/r/rational/comments/1yrvkc/pokemon_oos_pre6_update_and_discussion/
-
Score: 5
-
Created: 2014-02-24T06:15:38
Post:
Hey all, back again for another pre-chapter update. I've been spending the past few weeks editing my novel and dealing with everything from a stolen tire to a friend's wedding, so haven't had as much time for Pokemon as I'd like.
That said, the next chapter should be up in the next few days, and I have a question before I finally finish up chapter six, which is an interlude from Red's mother's perspective.
The current question I'm tackling is that of heat retention. It's something that didn't occur to me until this chapter: even assuming matter to energy to matter technology was possible, how could the matter retain its heat? It's not a big deal for inanimate objects, but like most living things, many pokemon would die if their body temperature drastically altered.
Currently I have it handwaved with a quick mention and explanation that it was one of the hurdles in the development of the technology. The concern I have as that, as this is technology and not just an as-yet-unexplained natural phenomenon, it's harder for me to dismiss it so easily: it feels like cheating. But I didn't want to just ignore it.
So I feel like this might is enough for what's essentially another unexplainable aspect of sufficient advanced technology, but wanted to check in with you guys to see if there are any better explanations or perspectives I could incorporate.
Any feedback appreciated, and thanks for the continued patience on the next chapter :)
Comments:
u/Escapement [+3] Ankh-Morpork City Watch (an hour later)
I personally don't think that there will ever be a really solid physics behind Pokemon and quick energy to matter and back conversions that preserve information and don't allow you to power your civilization's electric grid off of a Pidgey every century (and instead seem to have a power plant full of Electric pokemon for some reason??) that is consistent with e=mc^2 and classical 'physics as we know them in reality'. Not sticking to Earth physics will probably make things like Teleporters and the Teleport Skill, the Dig Skill, and the entire concept of an Escape Rope easier to explain I guess, maybe?
The entire concept of a rational pokemon technology based just seems brain-breaking to me - that people would develop mass-energy conversion tech and use it to make it more convenient to drag other sentients around for gladiatorial games.
I've been reading your fic for a bit now. An interesting premise.
I think it would be sort of hilarious if the pokemon trainers started talking about STAB-theory and EV-theories in regards to his analysis.
Charmander started with Ember? I thought he came out at level 5? Oh well, adjusting canonical levels and movesets so forth is probably a good idea unless you really want to try to rationally explain why Squirtle can't growl while Charmander can't tail-whip (I later noticed him tail-whipping in your fic).
I look forward to your trying to explain HMs, TMs, or anything like that- how there can exist a single use item that can teach a clefairy how to generate effects as varied as flames with it's fists or bolts of electricity. Perhaps it will tie into how some pokemon are capable of generating any effective attack in the entire world at total random without requiring any of the physiology the other pokemon would use to do the attack (Metronome) and the ability to generate any attack in the world provided someone else just used it on you (Mirror Move).
At this point, I think anyone analyzing the pokemon world's internal consistency would be fully justified in coming to the conclusion that they are probably in some sort of virtual reality that is being simulated on some higher-level and more consistent system.
Have you been following Twitch Plays Pokemon at all? As annoying as it is to watch on a moment-to-monent basis, it is still hilarious and interesting at times, and has created more amazing fan-art than most other things I have ever seen.
u/DaystarEld [+3] Pokémon Professor (an hour later)
The entire concept of a rational technology based just seems brain-breaking to me - that people would develop mass-energy conversion tech and use it to make it more convenient to drag other sentients around for gladiatorial games.
It really is painful to contemplate :P But by Arceus, I've got to try and do my honest best: I know I can't make Pokemon be "realistic," but I can at least make it make sense.
I think it would be sort of hilarious if the pokemon trainers started talking about STAB-theory and EV-theories in regards to his analysis.
Charmander started with Ember? I thought he came out at level 5? Oh well, adjusting canonical levels and movesets so forth is probably a good idea unless you really want to try to rationally explain why Squirtle can't growl while Charmander can't tail-whip (I later noticed him tail-whipping in your fic).
Most of the game conceits like "levels" and "EVs" and "STAB bonus" are being dropped, as I'm trying to go for a more serious fiction than a simple deconstructive parody :) I do plan on addressing more central concepts like super-effectiveness of course, but it's not going to simply be "Squirtle's water gun makes an Onyx faint because it's 4x as damaging for mystical reasons." There could be a number of reasons why a water pokemon would have an advantage against a rock or ground pokemon.
For example the reason water types have an advantage against certain ground types could be that they can turn dirt and soil into mud, which is much harder for Ground type pokemon to navigate through or manipulate, giving them a distinct disadvantage in the usual combat that ensues.
I look forward to your trying to explain HMs, TMs, or anything like that because explaining how there can exist a single use item that can teach a clefairy how to generate effects as varied as flames with it's fists or bolts of electricity.
Well TMs are infinite use now thankfully (since generation 5, Pokemon Black and White) so that particular idiotic game conceit doesn't even apply anymore :) Also there's no particular reason for HMs to exist as a separate thing in my world: the idea that there are only certain moves that can be used out of combat is another game conceit that survives from the traditional RPG background of pokemon, and it's one that's getting closer and closer to vanishing.
All that said, TMs will be handled fairly simply: I've already set up the Pokedex as the machine by which trainers can interact with and effect their pokemon while they're in their pokeballs. A TM is simply a software program that allows trainers to run a specific virtual training regimen that teaches specific species specific moves.
Perhaps it will tie into how some pokemon are capable of generating any effective attack in the entire world at total random without requiring any of the physiology the other pokemon would use to do the attack (Metronome) and the ability to generate any attack in the world provided someone else just used it on you (Mirror Move).
Yes, some pokemon are able to manipulate energy in such a way that they can generate electricity even if they're not an "electric type," or fire if they're not "fire type." As for more obscure moves like Metronome, not sure if I'm going to keep that concept pure :P It might just be a situation of "how is that pokemon able to do so many random things?! What if it can do ANYthing another pokemon can do?" Similarly, Mirror Move would only be learn-able by pokemon who have an excuse to be able to copy the effects of what's used on them, if not scrapped altogether.
Have you been following Twitch Plays Pokemon at all? As annoying as it is to watch on a moment-to-monent basis, it is still hilarious and interesting at times, and has created more amazing fan-art than most other things I have ever seen.
I have indeed! I don't participate as often anymore, but I still check in now and then and follow what's been happening. I'm so happy to see such an amazing social experiment spreading in awareness as far as places like xkcd. My personal favorite bit of art: http://tsaoshin.deviantart.com/art/Twitch-Plays-Pokemon-435767159
u/xkcd_transcriber [+1] (an hour later)
Title: First Date
Title-text: I sympathize with the TPP protagonist because I, too, have progressed through a surprising number of stages of life despite spending entire days stuck against simple obstacles.
Stats: This comic has been referenced 23 time(s), representing 0.2129% of referenced xkcds.
^Questions/Problems ^| ^Website ^| ^StopReplying
u/_brightwing [+2] Feathered menace (15 hours later)
Ooh, how did I miss catching this? Link to first chapter please!
Already like the direction in which this seems to be heading.. Sounds like you’re going to deconstruct the heck out of the pokemon world. ^ ^ I cannot stress how there can’t ever be enough DC pokefics.
I think your best bet would probably be explaining away pokeballs with tech developed from an application of Teleport, to pocket dimensions or something. I don’t envy you wrangling it up into a proper explanation in the story though..
If you need ideas, I found a few rational-ish Pokemon reads that are worth looking into.
The Natural History of Pokemon. Like a scientific journal with detailed entries explaining the physiology, behaviour, conservation status, etc. The author put up the evolved pokemons as related species; young to adult lifestages too though in some cases. I loved how he strived to put up realistic, biological explanations everywhere.
Very similar to him, this Paleoart enthusiast on Deviantart. I was blown away by his Dragonite (tadpole to frog!) and Gengar (camouflaged bat) interpretations.
“..looking at Gastly, I cracked it, his eyes could be bat ears; then the rest just fell into place design wise. None of the Gastly family are actually ghosts, but have just been claimed to be. Gastly and Haunter on live in caves and empty towers, appearing only at night. Their forms are very hard to make out as they have deceptive camouflage; Gastlies appear to be little more than a head at first glace, though in actuality are a very large poisonous bat. Each member of this family possesses a helium bladder, giving them the ability to float and taking on a ghostly appearance. Gengars do not occur in the wild, they are the result of a trainer taking their haunter to a new region, this results is a radical shift physique. Though Gengars do possess the ability to levitate, they are much heavier than their kin and can only levitate to avoid attacks. Each of them can produce a poisonous cloud by ruffling their fur, releasing dried toxic saliva into the air; though Gastlies seem to do this most commonly. They are hyper carnivores, preying on anything they can find, most commonly their relatives, Zubats. “
Pedestal. A longer series with a decidedly darker edge where we see a lot of very real world scenarios thrust upon the pokemon world. It starts out innocently though, deceptively similar to other stories. Only to turn everything you've known about the game on its head. Hands down the best Pokemon fiction I have ever read.
This ones kind of related to your pokeball dilemma. A short read exploring pokeball brain washing, from the rather horrific perspective of a captured pokemon.
And finally this. Satire, poking fun at letting ten-year olds go on expeditions unsupervised.
u/KJ6BWB [+2] (2 days later)
I just read Pedestal. It was a great story, I really enjoyed it, but definitely not rationalist fiction -- all the major characters are driven solely by emotion and tend to jump into things without thinking. In fact, they tend to actually denigrate thinking and getting more information. How many times did the main character say something like, "I don't want to know, I have too much to worry about already"? However, that's part of the point of the story, how emotions tend to drive us and what that means and the consequences that arise from that. It was a really good story, a fun read, but not rationalist fiction.
u/_brightwing [+1] Feathered menace (3 days later)
I agree, Pedestal does not count as a rationalist story. So much of the grief and tragedy of it all could been averted before everything spiraled even more out of hand.. It's one of the best earliest deconstructionist Pokemon fiction though. The author didn’t generally touch the technical aspects of things - but the little things like gym leaders secretly throwing matches, consequences when Pokemon fight all out, the more nitty gritty stuff.. It's just so fascinating to see takes on things with some realism added to it. And that's where Pedestal really shines, right?
u/DaystarEld [+1] Pokémon Professor (15 hours later)
Thanks for linking to those resources :) I was aware of them all except the Natural History of Pokemon, which is great.
Here's a link to the story:
https://www.fanfiction.net/s/9794740/1/Pokemon-The-Origin-of-Species
u/Rheaeus [+2] (a day later)
Have really garbled physics Instead of trying to find a scientific explanation for their technology Try to make your own physics that backs up the technology of the pokemon world
u/anonymousfetus [+1] (8 hours later)
Maybe you could play around with cryogenics?
u/WarningInsanityBelow [+1] (13 hours later)
You probably need to think about what you want to do with smarter-than-human Pokemon. In particular Mewtwo is a Artificial Pokemon which seems to be vastly smarter that any human. In particular it seems to be better at making Artificial Pokemon than the humans that made it (The only viable clone the researchers were able to make was Mewtwo which was only possible because Mew is special, however Mewtwo is capable of cloning any Pokemon). Mewtwo will probably be able to improve on its design over what the researchers did and once improved it may be able to do so again, and again ....
u/sullyj3 [+1] (15 hours later)
Pure energy isn't a thing. Just call the energy a pattern buffer like in star trek, which is used to reconstruct the Pokemon.
u/alexanderwales [+2] Time flies like an arrow (15 hours later)
It always seemed like such bullshit in Star Trek that they were able to put people into a pattern buffer and then pull them out again later but they were somehow not able to clone people with that same technology. I know the technobabble behind it, but they violate that technobabble on at least two occasions, which always made it seem like the Federation was involved in some massive conspiracy.
u/DaystarEld [+1] Pokémon Professor (15 hours later)
I never really got into Star Trek, could you describe the major difference between the teleporter technology he's referring to and the pokeball technology?
u/alexanderwales [+2] Time flies like an arrow (16 hours later)
It's almost identical. A transporter converts a person into an energy pattern, beams the energy pattern to a location, and then reconstructs a person from that pattern. Early versions of the technology required a "landing pad" for reconstruction, while in later version you could transport yourself around the ship without being anywhere near the transporter room. The recording is done down to the quantum level, with Heisenberg compensators removing any uncertainty.
And that's all well and good. However, Star Trek would also have you believe that while the computer can make a steaming hot cup of tea out of arbitrary matter (with their replicators), or revert a person to the stored memory file after an accident (done in more than one episode), or even split a person into two identical copies (done in the episode "Second Chances"), their technology somehow doesn't allow you to create duplicates of people.
From what I know about Pokemon, which isn't much beyond what's in the games and anime, the process is virtually the same, except instead of dematerializing, beaming, and rematerializing, it goes dematerializing, storing, and rematerializing.
But what the hell an energy pattern is never really gets explained (in either canon), and by mass-energy equivalence you'd think that a twenty pound Pokemon being converted into pure energy would mean that a Pokeball malfunction would make Hiroshima look like a firecracker as the equivalent of two hundred megatons of TNT get released.
If you were writing the story from scratch, I'd say that the dematerialization/rematerialization is a two-way destructive process that's not all that well-understood. You'd probably want to use an analogy with audio - just because we can listen to a song doesn't mean that we have the capability of recording it. But if Pokemon are reduced to information, then it still doesn't make that much sense that you can't duplicate them at will. Maybe it would just be better to say "We're taking this entire slice of space-time and sticking it in a ball" which would get you around the problem of heat/electricity/etc.
u/DaystarEld [+2] Pokémon Professor (16 hours later)
Thanks for the breakdown!
But if Pokemon are reduced to information, then it still doesn't make that much sense that you can't duplicate them at will. Maybe it would just be better to say "We're taking this entire slice of space-time and sticking it in a ball" which would get you around the problem of heat/electricity/etc.
This is something I plan on addressing, sort of: Porygon is actually the first completely artificial pokemon that the people of the pokemon world are trying to create by reverse-engineering the matter-to-data technology. It's so hard to perfectly get every aspect of a living being right though, that the test subject is a very crude life form indeed, though they're not quite able to make him work perfectly just yet.
u/sullyj3 [+1] (18 hours later)
The point is, neither make much sense, because what the fuck is an energy pattern? I would be less confused if the pattern was data stored in RAM or something.
u/KJ6BWB [+1] (2 days later)
It can't be some sort of pure energy storage pattern thing -- you can't plug in wires and run a city off a pokeball that has a creature in it, right? As I understand it, it's a sort of singleton pattern-thing that's in there. You can think of the balls as spaceships. Sure, you can go into a spaceship and then come back out, you can even be transferred into a different ship, but there's no way to get you into a new ship while maintaining you in the old ship because there's only one you. The terms that scientists use in the Pokemon canon are just massaged for the tender age and general idiocy of the trainer population (in kind terms, since they basically have no schooling or knowledge of physics). Time doesn't pass in the balls, right? So I think a frozen bit of space/time is the right way to look at it. Just because we managed to capture/shrink "you" doesn't mean that we necessarily have the technology to duplicate "you". Unless the Pokemon canon has shown that there is some sort of duplication ability somewhere, perhaps with a broken ball or something, and then duplication is literally in the cards.
u/Rouninscholar [+1] (3 days later)
But in story we have the Pokemon learning while in a ball. Doesn't work for this story.
u/sullyj3 [+1] (18 hours later)
Agreed, it's pretty absurd.
u/Rouninscholar [+1] (3 days later)
Theory 1. You might need to get into the idea of "souls" (behind the scenes anyway). The amount of heat in an object being consistent could be easy, just have the transference energy be supplied by the poke ball (or container).
But why can we not clone pokemon? If we break them into energy and information then supplying more energy would simply allow us to use the same information twice, then there are two charmanders. Souls could be an answer to this, for whatever reason the "power" behind a pokemon can't be copied, and without that power the pokemon dies in a matter of seconds. Pros: no cloning, works with your story so far, provides an interesting problem to work on over time. Cons: why did Laura have to cook? Couldn't they simply take the "information" from a previous dinner and copy it with sufficient power? Guns(including net guns) would work entirely off of batteries. It breaks economy (take the "energy" from a log and use the "information" for a stack of hundred dollar bills.) energy becomes currency, and this would modify the entire world way to much to be feasible.
Theory 2. A new type of energy. This energy has a wavelength, "voltage", etc. and is basically a new type of matter. This energy is complex and mostly unknown to us. It is mildly dangerous(hence the need for containers).contact with it will cause mild burns, made worse by the "attraction" it has with itself causing intense focused burns. By luck someone learned to break matter down to this energy, it took quite a while for someone to make the matter again. The energy clusters together and allows it to remake itself, but two sets of this energy will pull together causing a mixture of the two(one Pokemon per ball at a time). We cannot modify this energy, but we can read tiny taking measurements in certain ways.
Pros:works with most of your story so far. Most of the handwaving happens at an almost quantum level, leaving it less obvious. Could allow for interesting ideas, such as metronome simply doing this same thing but actually making energy that is psuedo randomly assigned a form based on other pokemon.
Cons: your "training inside a pokeball" implies a two way communication, meaning that the energy is by nature readable and writable . Weaponizing it would be a major theme again.
u/Rouninscholar [+1] (3 days later)
Theory 3:(look around if they are out of order, sorry) shrinking. Kinda random, but size changing is common in Pokemon, maybe squirtle has shrunken pressurized water in his stomach? Charmanders would have to eat quite a bit of food, maybe they are expanding the oil? There is a whole host of problems with this though. Including storing Pokemon at one computer and retrieving at another. Why would being shrunken mentally disable humans? And why do alakhazams not suffer the same way?
Theory 4: alternate dimensions. I honestly can't see any way to make it work with the mental damage, pokemon restrictions, "dream like state", etc.