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[META][RT][HSF?] The Quantum Thief & Trilogy, which side do you choose?
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Author: u/Empiricist_or_not Aspiring polite Hegemonizing swarm*
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URL: https://www.reddit.com/r/rational/comments/2bkcaw/metarthsf_the_quantum_thief_trilogy_which_side_do/
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Score: 8
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Created: 2014-07-24T04:01:31
Post:
Hannu Rajaniemi's trillogy: The Quantum Thief, The Fractal Prince, and The Causal Angel recently ended. Many of us here are fans of the idea that death is an enemy to be defeated, but [Basic setting spoiler] (#s "The faction most dedicated to defeating death, the Sobornost, are depicted in a less than 'friendly' and overall totalitarian light. As opposed to the libertarian Zoku who allow death")Causal Angel Spoiler re: "The spike" Which faction do you identify with, and why?
Comments:
u/PeridexisErrant [+4] put aside fear for courage, and death for life (8 hours later)
- the [meta] tag is for posts about the sub, so discussion of fiction doesn't need it
I tend to think that making immortality the default option would be good. It's important to have an opt-out system, but hopefully you can also deal with depression and other quality of life problems that would cause someone to want to.
And beware the siren call of an argument from fiction!
u/Empiricist_or_not [+1] Aspiring polite Hegemonizing swarm (15 hours later)
Agreed argument is bad. My desire is for intelligent discussion of what prices are acceptable to pay, in order to complete the great common task. The le Flambur trilogy brings this question up in an interesting way, considering it is usually only brought up and discussed by those of us who are predisposed to be cheerleaders for the "kill death" faction.
Re the [meta]tag my thought process was, that if the hoped for discussion develops, then it will be more about what we in r/rational are willing to pay to give everyone immorality, than the le Flambur series I didn't express that well last night.
u/artifex0 [+2] (16 hours later)
Survival is only one of the things human beings value.
We're driven by instinct to value survival, but those same instincts, as well as (I'd argue) an unknown psychological process by which we acquire new motivations drive us to value things like love, freedom and the preservation of various things other than ourselves. Those aren't means to accomplishing any greater purpose (in this context), they're the fundamental basis of our decision-making.
A decent society is a social contract meant to promote what its constituents value. In Hannu Rajaniemi's novels, the Sobornost seem to do a very good job of promoting one of the things it's people value, but at the expense of seemingly every other thing. The uploaded minds in that society seem to be little more than tools, lacking most of the parts of our lives that we value for their own sake.
The Zoku seem like a much more representative society. I can't remember if their reasons for not keeping lots of backups of their minds around was ever fully explained, but I get the impression that it's more of a cultural aversion than something strictly disallowed. That said, the way the Zoku volition affects their minds is worrying. Can a society really be representative if it modifies what its constituents value?
While I'd greatly prefer the Zoku to the Sobornost, I think if I lived in that setting, I'd want to find a third option. Maybe one of the smaller, politically unaligned tribes.
u/Empiricist_or_not [+3] Aspiring polite Hegemonizing swarm (a day later)
The Zoku don't clone because they seem to be proponents/dependent on technology that is non-deterministic and unique, where the sobornost, drive for a deterministic universe where they can eventually go back and reconstruct every historical, but Causul Angel spoiler
Sobornost get's really scary when you consider they are editing people's utility functions for the partial Gogols. We don't know if they treat the rest of the uploaded well, but it is implied that those minds are working in a task they all believe in and that they have time off in "vers" i.e. simulspace.
u/artifex0 [+1] (a day later)
Hmm, sounds like I need to re-read the first two books. I've forgotten a lot.
u/Empiricist_or_not [+3] Aspiring polite Hegemonizing swarm (2 days later)
From the opening of the fractal prince Sounds like an edited utility function to me, and I don't know how you keep ghost gun Gogols happy.
u/embrodski [+2] (a day later)
Damn, the third one is already out? I haven't even finished Prince yet. :/
u/Empiricist_or_not [+1] Aspiring polite Hegemonizing swarm (a day later)
Ill try to spoiler tag appropriately. The Causal Angel came out on the 17th.