30 KiB
The Two Year Emperor, Ch53: 'Color Coded For Your Convenience' is up
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Author: u/eaglejarl *
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URL: https://www.fanfiction.net/s/9669819/53/The-Two-Year-Emperor
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Score: 14
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Created: 2014-07-25T23:02:34
Post:
Comments:
u/Anakiri [+13] (6 hours later)
I have the sudden distressing impression that Herrún is being fed the secrets of millions of black-alignment undead.
u/lsparrish [+2] (18 hours later)
If so, I wonder if using Helm of Opposite Alignment on those particular undead would be feasible. Edit: Probably not, if there are millions of them.
u/eaglejarl [+3] (2 minutes later)
In which Loki serves pizza...er, Chinese...er, curry. Also, answers to the most important riddles of the universe start to unfold.
As it says in the author's note, be aware that I'm on the opposite side of the International Date Line from usual. It's Saturday for me now; if you're seeing this on a different day from usual, that's why.
u/drageuth2 [+3] (11 hours later)
Waidaminute....
Afi can scry on the town until it moves. But the town's in an extradimensional space. Only its entrance technically moves. Doesn't that mean that Afi can spy on 90% of the town any time no matter how far they run, unless they completely tear down and rebuild the town?
Also, if I'm inferring right, either Jake doesn't fit into the world's alignment system or.... Jake is eeeeevillll! Bwahaha! His pally pallies are gonna have a fun time with that one. I wonder if their protocol allows for evil overlords, or if they have to hogtie him and put a helm of opposite alignment on him 'for the land.'
u/eaglejarl [+3] (14 hours later)
Afi can scry on the room they were in. But that room wasn't in Grǫfhamr proper, it was in a Mage's Magnificent Mansion which was inside Grǫfhamr. An MMM is its own extradimensional space, i.e. its own demiplane. When it ceases to exist, they will put up a new MMM, which will be a brand new demiplane with no relation to the first except that it might have the same floorplan.
u/drageuth2 [+2] (16 hours later)
Yeah, but Ice-fi had to walk through at least part of Grǫfhamr to get there, didn't he? It'd be smart of him to make a circuit of the town to get perma-spy on it. So he'd be able to spy on the portable hole 'corridors,' but not the rope trick and MMM 'chambers.' So not 90% of the town, but if he can see the entrance from the parts he can scry...
u/eaglejarl [+3] (20 hours later)
Valid point. I'll clarify that. Thanks for pointing it out.
u/Zephyr1011 [+2] Potentially Unfriendly Aspiring Divinity (2 hours later)
she'll be inherently grateful to her creators
This seems like interesting wording. Given that this is a resurrection ritual, I don't think that the people participating in the ritual could count as her creators. Does a god even have creators?
We can manifest in our temples, or in places where someone is threatening ascencion or otherwise poses a danger to the world or to the gods themselves.
Hasn't Loki and many other gods manifested to Jake without fulfilling these conditions? Arros and Ilara could perhaps count under a danger to the world, but not Shailos or Loki. Unless what they're doing doesn't count as manifesting
Also, Jake's Orbital Bombardment trick appears to have curried favour with 2 gods, Loki and Arros. I think that it would clearly be in his best interests to come up with more creative uses of munchkinry such as that. Not that I have an ulterior motive here or anything. Would other acts of munchkinry such as the commoner railgun or celestial brilliance cannons also impress the gods?
u/ansible [+2] The Culture (2 hours later)
The infinite wishes cycle definitely counts as attempting to ascend.
u/Zephyr1011 [+1] Potentially Unfriendly Aspiring Divinity (2 hours later)
True, and it poses a danger to the world, so that appearance of Ilara and Loki seems to fit with the rules he's stated. But other times, such as the appearance of Shailos to Thomas?
u/ansible [+1] The Culture (2 hours later)
It seems that Thomas is the highest level paladin, right? A major screwup by him (to the point of him losing paladin status) might be a good reason to put in a showing.
Edit: spelling.
u/Zephyr1011 [+1] Potentially Unfriendly Aspiring Divinity (2 hours later)
But it's not threatening ascension, in a temple (assuming temple doesn't have a stupid definition like around a devout worshipper), or posing a threat to the world or god. So, Shailos shouldn't be able to manifest under Loki's rules
u/blazinghand [+1] Chaos Undivided (3 hours later)
I'd say your most powerful worshipper potentially getting excommunicated poses a threat to you.
u/Zephyr1011 [+1] Potentially Unfriendly Aspiring Divinity (3 hours later)
Fair enough, that could probably be argued by Shailos as sufficient. But Loki's numerous appearances to Jake still don't fit under these rules
u/eaglejarl [+9] (5 hours later)
In the interest of saving some epileptic trees: Loki is the God of Rulebreaking. He does what he likes unless someone more powerful explicitly steps on him for it. Even then, he'll usually find a way to work around them.
u/lsparrish [+2] (20 hours later)
We know that Loki is playng both sides. He is probably thick with Afi (just like Jake), given Afi's apparent penchant for munchkinry and Loki's Neutral alignment. The trick with destroying Herrún's temple to kill her off, then getting Grǫfhamr to sacrifice their secrets to bring her back is probably something they worked out together.
Afi could be a pretty good ally, if they could get a Helm of Opposite Alignment on him enough times to get past his will save. Could Loki be planning to do this to Shailos?
The black flames are most easily explained by lots of evil undead making sacrifices. The only way to prevent Herrun from being predisposed to evil would be to either compensate with more sacrifices from good people, or find the undead and HoOA them all. Or maybe HoOA the evil Herrun, if that is possible. To incapacitate the undead long enough, I'm thinking polymorph them into tree sloths, or something else that is slow moving.
How broken is Polymorph Any Object, anyway? Can one turn an anthill into a secret city containing billions of virtuous elves with all kinds of secret magic arts, say, to sacrifice to Herrun? On the other hand, maybe actually use their secret arts for the war effort directly.
The truthful-mandatory questions could be phrased in a way so as for the honest answer to be a set of numbers, with each one corresponding to a numbered piece of paper with a scenario written on it. There could be hundreds of them. By asking "what is the complete set of numbers corresponding to claims regarding this reality", the truthful answer would be a simple set of numbers with no room for deviation.
The complete-honest questions could be more open-ended, e.g. asking for the 100 most likely plans to work, sorted from most likely to work to least likely to work, with percentages indicating probability in the event that the plan were attempted with no new information.
u/eaglejarl [+1] (a day later)
Whoa, heavy edit there. And I thought I had responded, but I don't see it.
Anyway:
Congrats on writing Grǫfhamr properly -- I think you may be the first one who bothered to render the o-with-caudata. :)
PAO is extremely broken, but it does have limits. It turns one thing into one other thing. So, ant to elf, sure. Anthill to elf city? Nope. There's also some limits about creating information -- e.g., if you say "Polymorph Any Object: rock to map showing the locations of every lich's phylactery!"...yeah, no. Won't work. (And yes, this is actually a deviation from RAW. As written, PAO would allow you to do that, so I'm bringing down the "gods of knowledge don't allow that crap" hammer. (It gets kinda tiresome how often I have to do that, actually...D&D 3.5 is sooooo broken!!!!))
I like your "set of numbers" technique. Expect it to get an appropriate treatment in the next chapter.
u/Nepene [+1] (a day later)
I'm not entirely sure PAO RAW would allow a map showing the location of every lich's phylactery.
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/alterSelf.htm
The polymorph spell appearance alteration is based on alter spell.
"You can freely designate the new form’s minor physical qualities (such as hair color, hair texture, and skin color) within the normal ranges for a creature of that kind. The new form’s significant physical qualities (such as height, weight, and gender) are also under your control, but they must fall within the norms for the new form’s kind. You are effectively disguised as an average member of the new form’s race. If you use this spell to create a disguise, you get a +10 bonus on your Disguise check. "
So you have a limited ability to alter the appearance of things you polymorph. By Raw, you can only alter the minor physical characteristics and physical qualities, and they must be within the norms for that race, they provide, at most, a 10+ disguise bonus.
I'd argue that a document showing the locations of every lich's phylactery would not be within the norms for the race of pieces of paper. In fact, you're going somewhat beyond RAW if you alter anything bar height, weight, hair color, gender, hair texture, and skin color. The spell doesn't provide any bonus to forge document, writing on a document isn't really covered by the spell.
u/eaglejarl [+1] (a day later)
Alter Self affects people, not objects, so it isn't relevant when creating a map. PAO may be similar to AS, but it is enormously different as well, and ultimately the differences will usually outweigh the similarities. For example, at my table I would allow PAOing into a weightlifter. Some people read Alter Self to say that you can't so that because of the "average member" clause. I disagree with that reading -- in context, I rule that "average member" means "within the norms of", as used above. It would be useless if you couldn't disguise yourself as an emaciated beggar or a weightlifter just because those aren't average builds.
u/Nepene [+1] (a day later)
Alter Self affects people, not objects, so it isn't relevant when creating a map.
It is relevant in that it explains the limitations of your magic. In saying "I believe this spell as written allows me to create a map of an enemy's magical objects" you are saying that there are no limitations that prevent you from doing so. Since polymorph any object is dependent on the powers of polymorph, which is dependent on alter self your ability to alter the physical appearance of an object is dependent on the wording of alter self, which details what you can do. You lack the ability to alter the writing on an object so it's a house rule that would let you do so.
Some people read Alter Self to say that you can't so that because of the "average member" clause. I disagree with that reading -- in context, I rule that "average member" means "within the norms of", as used above. It would be useless if you couldn't disguise yourself as an emaciated beggar or a weightlifter just because those aren't average builds.
That would be RAI/ a house rule. The disguise skill requires you to spend more skill to overcome a significant weight/ height difference, 50 skill points. You're essentially allowing them to have a 60+ bonus to disguise (the normal stuff plus 50+ for an abnormal physique) from alter self, allowing you to bypass most disguise checks. That's normally a third level sort of spell effect, doing epic effects of skills, not a second level sort of effect. Like fly at level 3 making climb useless vs spider climb at level 2, invisibility at level 2 vs invisibility sphere at level 3 (hide others) making hide useless.
u/eaglejarl [+1] (a day later)
[The details of Alter Self are] relevant [to PAO] in that it explains the limitations of your magic.
No, it really isn't. Objects are not creatures. Alter Self talks only about what you can do vis a vis a creature. It makes no mention of objects, because it isn't about objects. You are taking the details of a spell about creatures and extrapolating what it should therefore allow you to do vis a vis objecs. That is the very essence of RAI.
[disguise issue]
You are misunderstanding my point. Granted, I was unclear because I used the word 'disguise' ambiguously. Let's try that again:
Alert Self has two uses:
- Make yourself look like a person who isn't you [general appearance change]
- Make yourself look like a specific person [disguise]
If you are using the 'disguise' function then sure, fine, you get a +10 bonus and overcoming a huge body difference is hard.
If you are using the 'general appearance change' function, then you are limited to 'the norms of the race'. This includes both very strong / fat people and very weak / skinny people. It probably doesn't include Mr Universe or a supermodel, but it would cover, e.g a random gym rat or a marathon runner.
This is a stupid and contradictory way for a spell to work, but it's the only way I can read it that is internally consistent.
u/Nepene [+1] (2 days later)
Most of the alter self rules use the term form, not the term creature, and the polymorph any object implies that the term form refers to both objects and creatures. Besides which, it would be a very quirky interpretation of the rules to say that "This spell functions like polymorph, except that it changes one object or creature into another." Meant that you could ignore polymorph rules because you were now making an object. The clear meaning of the words is that polymorph rules apply, except in that you can now make objects, which are also subject to polymorph rules about forms, not that objects can ignore the rules of polymorph about forms.
Alert Self has two uses: Make yourself look like a person who isn't you [general appearance change] Make yourself look like a specific person [disguise]
It doesn't have a specific person disguise mechanic, it just provides a bonus to a disguise skill check, where you do specific things to set up a disguise. Until you put in the 1d3x10 minutes your alter self does nothing to make you look like a specific person by RAW. It could improve bluffs by dm choice, but nothing else.
If you are using the 'general appearance change' function, then you are limited to 'the norms of the race'. This includes both very strong / fat people and very weak / skinny people.
http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Humans_(Race)
What humans possible range by chance is defined. 124-260 pounds. Personally I'd argue that somewhere in the middle would be closer to the meaning of average, but a, say, 6 stone beggar weighing 84 pounds is clearly not in the norms, since it's impossible to be that just with rolling given the normal human stats. A body builder is more possible, there's a good chance you could fake that with alter self.
u/eaglejarl [+1] (2 days later)
sigh
Some of your points are absolutely correct and you're right. Some of them I don't agree that RAW supports them. If we ever end up at a table together, we can play it by either set of rules, depending on who's the DM. In the meantime, I don't feel like debating this further. This is the way it works in 2YE. If you think it's house rules, fine, whatever. As far as I'm concerned, I'm still running RAW on this.
u/Nepene [+1] (2 days later)
I don't mind playing by either set of rules, my annoyance was that you called PAO broken in RAW after changing the rules of the spell. Your argument was something like "Objects are not covered by the alter other creature spell as they are creatures, so the inherited limitations (e.g. must be average member of form) don't apply therefore you can create any object that's not magical or made of valuable materials such as a lich map."
While the DnD creators made many obscenely broken spells they did at least try to stop some things, and their efforts deserve respect.
Edit. Besides which, there's a spell that can locate the phylacteries anyway, Discern Location. It's unblockable except by mind blank or deity intervention, and phylacteries aren't creatures and so can't be mind blanked.
u/eaglejarl [+1] (2 days later)
Objects are not covered by the alter other creature spell as they are creatures, so the inherited limitations (e.g. must be average member of form) don't apply therefore you can create any object that's not magical or made of valuable materials such as a lich map.
Yes, that's exactly how I understand it. And please stop saying that I'm "changing the rules". I am not changing the rules; I feel that your interpretation of RAW is incorrect, and I am playing by the RAW as I understand it. Clearly, neither one of us is going to convince the other, so please drop it.
The ironic part is that the entire discussion is utterly moot. We both agree that you can't create a lich map in the 2YE-verse. We simply disagree on why.
As to not being able to use Mind Blank on an object, that is absolutely correct. However, my understanding is that attended objects are covered by Mind Blank, so the solution is to tie the thing to a cat, put Mind Blank on the cat, and then put the cat under Temporal Stasis. Or, if you don't feel that you can Mind Blank a cat, insert whatever creature you like.
Edit: you can also set a spell engine to constantly recast the MB so it doesn't run out.
u/Nepene [+1] (2 days later)
I am not changing the rules; I feel that your interpretation of RAW is incorrect.
It's somewhat frustrating you ordering me to stop it and arguing with me. Sigh. PAO doesn't define the properties of objects beyond size, class, and kingdom, hence why it's rewritting. You have to make up new fluff text and rules for how it works beyond the existing stuff to fit your new definition that doesn't inherit polymorph stuff. Even if we assume it is RAW, it still needs houseruling and such because it no longer has any rules explaining what it does.
The ironic part is that the entire discussion is utterly moot. We both agree that you can't create a lich map in the 2YE-verse. We simply disagree on why.
A lot of the fun of reading a fanfiction or story within an established universe is seeing the existing rules manipulated and used. Deviation from them is somewhat frustrating.
As to not being able to use Mind Blank on an object, that is absolutely correct. However, my understanding is that attended objects are covered by Mind Blank, so the solution is to tie the thing to a cat, put Mind Blank on the cat, and then put the cat under Temporal Stasis. Or, if you don't feel that you can Mind Blank a cat, insert whatever creature you like.
Yeah, I guess you can evade it like that.
u/Nepene [+1] (3 days later)
There is one way to bypass mind blank that I can think of.
Miracle can teleport you to a location without any divination or information gathering, or any need to know where you are going. It's an evocation spell, so it's not blocked by mind blank. As such you could teleport directly to the phylactery or assuming they have teleport wards teleport several hundred feet above, drop several tons of antiosmium, and teleport away. It's like a greater greater form of greater teleport which has some sort of omniscient location finder.
If your god is unwilling to aid you you can just convert to the cause of good and let the power of goodness power you so your request is mediated just by their alignment and nature. You are killing undead who are evil so many gods of good would likely support you, and the request is explicitly one that miracle can grant.
u/eaglejarl [+1] (4 days later)
Oooh, I like it! Thanks for pointing that out.
u/Zephyr1011 [+1] Potentially Unfriendly Aspiring Divinity (a day later)
How does PAO define thing? Assuming similar biology to Earth, a human would contain lots of others things, like half digested food, organs and bacteria. And yet, we know that PAO can make humans. Where does it draw the line so that a city wouldn't work? Also, does it come with size constraints?
u/eaglejarl [+2] (2 days later)
PAO has size limits on the source object, but not on the output. You could PAO a gain of sand into a billion tons of gold if you wanted. It would even be permanent. ( +5/same kingdom, +2/same class, +2/same intelligence = 9 = permanent)
D20 doesn't define object, which is a cause for many issues. Nonetheless, a city is pretty clearly not included. At least not at my table. Nice try, though. :) I heartily approve of your munchkinry.
u/Zephyr1011 [+1] Potentially Unfriendly Aspiring Divinity (2 days later)
According to the wiki:
This spell cannot create material of great intrinsic value, such as copper, silver, gems, silk, gold, platinum, mithral, or adamantine. It also cannot reproduce the special properties of cold iron in order to overcome the damage reduction of certain creatures.
Does the no gold creation rule not apply in 2YE?
Also, if you were to create an elf, could you create an elf mage capable of casting, say, PAO twice? To create two more identical elf mages, with similar abilities? And so on, until you have an infinite elf army
Would Jake's Hourglass of Permanency work on PAO? What are the exact terms of that, anyway.
Incidentally, given how insanely useful wishes are, why hasn't Jake tried to get any more? He didn't seem to have much trouble finding a Candle of Invocation last time, and while he can't use it to wish for infinite wishes, he could still get something out of it. Such as a magic item capable of casting PAO with caster level 1000
u/eaglejarl [+1] (2 days later)
My mistake, I forgot about that clause. Yes, that rule applies. You could still PAO up a billion tons of osmium, since that has no cost on any equipment list.
Re: elf mage. Erm...good question. You can definitely create an elf. Running down the chain of base spells, I don't think RAW supports creating something with character levels.
The Hourglass doesn't "make spells permanent" it "casts a Permanency spell", which can only affect certain spells, PAO not among them. It's not an issue though; you can PAO a pebble into a human, which has a 20 minute duration, then you PAO that human into itself, permanent duration.
As to not trying to get more Wishes...Jake is a little jumpy about using Wish again. Having a goddess show up to twist your head off makes an impression.
u/Zephyr1011 [+1] Potentially Unfriendly Aspiring Divinity (2 days later)
Would a group of elves tied together, or otherwise connected count as a single object?
Also, would these elves be created as a blank slate, or can they be given (false) memories? And would Herrun accept their secrets, or would they be considered inferior to those of regular people? Also, had Jake created them with his insanely powerful secret that caused an explosion, could they all have sacrificed it too? Or would that have just detracted from it's power, as it is now recoverable?
What does make something valuable for Herrun, anyway? The impact the secret's loss has on people? The potential the secret had to change things? It's importance? It's impact on the life of the sacrificer?
u/eaglejarl [+1] (2 days later)
Tied together = one: no. Not with creatures, certainly. With objects it's a bit fuzzier, and I would have to rule case-by-case. In general, if you're tying things together just to hack PAO then the answer is probably no. If you're tying things together to form a new object (eg a net with floats attached) then I would say yes, that is a single object.
PAO'd critters would be blank slates with no active memories of their own, although they would have basic autonomic functionality -- treat them as a person with total amnesia.
Yes, you can use Programmed Amnesia to put memories into a PAO'd creature. You could not add character levels that way, though. You might be able to add knowledge skills, but not physical skills.
The elves are regular people after the PAO so, yes, Herrún would accept their sacrifices. Interesting point.
As to the rest of your questions...spoilers! :)
u/Zephyr1011 [+1] Potentially Unfriendly Aspiring Divinity (2 days later)
In Chapter 50 Herrun says
rather large secrets, considering the impact they would have had on those people's lives.
So presumably the strength of the secret is the impact it would have on people's lives. Although it doesn't say whether its on the person in question or people in general. Which explains why Jake's nuke from orbit secret was so powerful and implies that his Loki deduction could have had a massive impact on things. In which case, creating elves which are not permanent and then programming them with the information that they aren't permanent would have a pretty big impact on their short lives. So that should be a powerful secret for Herrun, if my guess is correct. Unless the length of the lives they have left would matter?
Presumably programmable amnesia suffers from the same information creation constraints as PAO, so an elf couldn't be given the memory of the lich's phylactery locations. Sadly.
u/eaglejarl [+1] (2 days later)
In theory you could do the elf thing, but Programmable Amnesia has a 10 minute casting time, so it wouldn't scale very well. There is a spell called Mindrape, which does pretty much exactly what PA does but has a 1 round casting time so in theory you could use that and have good throughput. (I think; I don't remember all the details on PA and MR). Problem is, that spell doesn't exist in 2YE because I dislike the name. Also, it's got the Evil descriptor, so the Deorsi / Flobovians wouldn't be using it anyway.
u/Zephyr1011 [+1] Potentially Unfriendly Aspiring Divinity (2 days later)
Does basic autonomic stuff cover language? Because they could then just be told these things. If not, then this idea probably wouldn't work
u/eaglejarl [+1] (4 days later)
Erm...I'm really not sure. I would need to dig pretty heavily into the language rules. My suspicion is that yes, this would probably work, but I have only slightly more than coinflip confidence in that.
u/Anakiri [+1] (a day later)
In chapter 35, Jake already tried listing potential facts and asking "Of those statements, which ones are false?" Referring to the statements by number shouldn't change anything.
Loki charged him for each claim separately. He was in a good mood and gave Jake a discount, but it would probably be a bad idea to try the same trick twice.
u/eaglejarl [+1] (a day later)
Isparrish: [ask for the numbers of true / false statements ]
eaglejarl: I like your "set of numbers" technique. Expect it to get an appropriate treatment in the next chapter.
Anakiri: [Jake tried that and,] Loki charged him for each claim separately.
Dangit, stop reading my story notes! Now you've blown what the 'appropriate treatment' is! :P
u/lsparrish [+2] (a day later)
Argh. He should definitely specify that the set of numbers be ordered from most important to least important so that if he does blow all the answers, he at least gets something useful.
Better yet, he could request only the most important true answer. For example: "Of the claims written on these 100 pieces of paper, which of the true ones is the most important (to us) for us to know about?" That way, if he blows the answers (on the grounds that information about the other claims is contained in the answer, i.e. that they are not as important, whether true or not) he at least doesn't sound like he has been taking stupid pills.
u/Nepene [+1] (a day later)
A fun chapter. It shows working with genies done right. Lots of kindness to make the genie like you, intense and potent results, Loki being scary, and the genie screwing over the character despite all their preparation.
u/CeruleanTresses [+1] (2 days later)
I can't wait for the shoe to drop regarding the Scotch. Aaaugh, it's driving me crazy that Jake hasn't caught on!
u/eaglejarl [+1] (2 days later)
What do you think the shoe will be?
u/CeruleanTresses [+1] (2 days later)
Well, I could be wrong, but I got the impression that giving him the Scotch was Arros's main purpose in meeting with him. He's already using it as an emotional crutch--he's going to end up an alcoholic at this rate, and I think that was what Arros was going for.
u/eaglejarl [+1] (2 days later)
Hmm. I think I shall leave this with an ominous "no comment." :)