23 KiB
The Two Year Emperor, Ch55 'The Penny Drops' is up
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Author: u/eaglejarl *
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URL: https://www.fanfiction.net/s/9669819/55/The-Two-Year-Emperor
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Score: 14
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Created: 2014-08-01T21:22:07
Post:
Comments:
u/Muskwalker [+10] (18 hours later)
u/eaglejarl [+3] (a day later)
laugh
Thank you, that really did get an out-loud laugh.
u/Kodix [+2] (21 hours later)
Okay, that was amusing.
Still, you probably have to actually know the knowledge you're sacrificing. Probably?
u/Muskwalker [+3] (22 hours later)
I think that raises the question of what it means to know it.
To sacrifice the secret of a buried treasure's location, how precisely does one have to know it? Can you just name a town, or a landmark, a distance in feet, or does it have to be coordinates, and if so to how many decimal places?
Likewise for a book - does just knowing that a book, or a certain chapter of it, contains secrets count? Or do you have to have read the book? Or do you have to have understood the book well enough to be tested on it, and if so, what's the required passing grade?
....
Outside of that question, it does not appear that secrets require active knowledge. Herrún's temple was destroyed, and the damage to her was not solely because of the knowledge of the people there, but also the records—many of which were presumably unread, at least not by anyone living. She also mentions pregnancies not yet known to anyone as a kind of secret.
....
Even outside of that question...
It has to be something that is actually a secret, and that benefits the person, either by staying a secret or by being revealed. [...] The person making the sacrifice will no longer remember it
Just a secret, not your secret. So theoretically I could sacrifice someone else's secret that would benefit me by being revealed (say, a wax-sealed paper from HJPEV containing the secret of Patronus 2.0 ^(WHERE IS THIS LETTER NOW, BY THE WAY).)
u/Anderkent [+1] (2 days later)
Isn't the problem with sacrificing the books that they won't be able to learn anything that was with them? And since they books contain anything relevant to their problem, they won't be able to learn any of that, and so would basically never solve anything.
u/Muskwalker [+2] (2 days later)
Oh there are many huge problems with sacrificing the books (hence the use of "insanity wolf"). The books presumably contain many basic facts about the universe which it would be a very bad idea to consign to secrecy forever.
u/Anderkent [+1] (2 days later)
OTOH, if you grab a LG peasant, give him the books, promise them a comfortable life for them and their family afterwards, and have them sacrifice the books... Presumably it's still a significant sacrifice, but the MC can still learn things :P
u/Zephyr1011 [+1] Potentially Unfriendly Aspiring Divinity (6 days later)
Well, you wouldn't be able to learn the secrets again. Others could, IIRC
u/Traiden04 [+7] (6 hours later)
That is a very secure Emergency Bunker Loki gave Jake. Antimagic and books that can block magic! Polymorph any object should get them the microscope they need. This is very significant!
u/tilkau [+2] (9 hours later)
Yeah, I read that response as 'You have really impressed me with that one.' He gave basically the maximal help he could possibly give without getting into huge trouble.
More than one microscope is probably needed, though.
u/Zephyr1011 [+1] Potentially Unfriendly Aspiring Divinity (17 hours later)
The bunker would be useful, but the information probably won't. The books are massive and apparently very wordy. He probably won't be able to read them in a useful amount of time. Unless he can use a trick like adjusting the microscope being a free action
u/Muskwalker [+5] (23 hours later)
The bunker would be useful, but the information probably won't.
Given the question as phrased, I expected the information to be absolutely useless.
He asked:
"What is the set of words in a language that everyone at this table understands that contains all the truths that we most need to know and that you will award us for the cost of only a single question, sorted by importance from most important to least important?"
I imagined receiving a result like "the, be, to, of, and..." (or a similar list, depending on how one is calculating importance). He asks for the set of words, not sentences or paragraphs or whatever, which is bad enough, and then he asks it to be sorted.
He asks the words to be in a language understood, but not the truths. ("I decided to use this set of common English words as a cipher for Tamarian.")
He asks for his result to contain all the truths, but not only the truths, (though including untruths as well as truths would probably fall afoul of a 'not deceptive' answer).
Given Thor's tendency to go literal-genie when he doesn't like the question, Jake was incredibly lucky to get something back that "contains the opening paragraph of the discussion about the nature of the gods".
u/eaglejarl [+2] (a day later)
Interesting point. You're right, Loki could have done that. Maybe he didn't think of it...?
EDIT: I always had a problem with Tamarian. Leaving aside the fact that any culture needs a way to say "pass the salt", there is the question of base truth. In order for the language to be comprehensible by a Tamarian, they need to know the underlying references. How do you convey the underlying references in a language that consists entirely of references to those references?
And yes, I saw how Darmok taught Picard. I'm dubious about being feasible for everything in the language.
u/Muskwalker [+1] (a day later)
There are many possible ways of being apparently unhelpful and, if applicable, of secretly being helpful within that apparent unhelpfulness. I'm not faulting Loki, just thinking of the subversions that came to my own mind.
u/Muskwalker [+1] (a day later)
Re Tamarian: Yeah, it's infeasible for the entirety of the language, but the trouble with the plot was that it wasn't the entirety of the language - drop the names and you can still say "___ when the walls fell", "the river ____ in winter".
Saying that it was necessary to speak the language, as I believe the plot of the episode did, was demanding too much... though I wouldn't put it past a culture to customarily speak in references like "eaglejarl, his eggs bland" and consider more direct speech either rude or childish.
u/eaglejarl [+2] (a day later)
Hey! I'll have you know that I make excellent eggs! Scrambled, omelettes...any way you like 'em, I can do 'em and they'll be fantastic! So there, nyah!
u/alexanderwales [+2] Time flies like an arrow (a day later)
Yup, I was thinking that he would get something like this.
u/Muskwalker [+1] (a day later)
That was surprisingly amazing, most likely due to apophenia making some of those patterns interesting.
u/Traiden04 [+1] (18 hours later)
Magic can not be directly applied to the books, but what about the image the books make as viewed through the microscope? Could you have some way of projecting an image seen by a mirror into the air for ease of reading? You are not doing magic to the book, only magically enhancing a mirror?
u/Zephyr1011 [+1] Potentially Unfriendly Aspiring Divinity (18 hours later)
That could work, although the image would not cover much of the text
u/Traiden04 [+1] (20 hours later)
This information would be worth the work, send a few scholars somewhere to make with the memorization and output answers with time. It is a good backburner plan only requiring the number of some many leveled wizards to pull the books out of the bunker at a time, as it is antimagic within.
u/LeonCross [+1] (21 hours later)
Hm. Talking is a free action...would reading the books out loud be as well?
u/Riddle-Tom_Riddle [+7] (5 hours later)
Lemme just work out what I wrote, because I don't remember exactly what I called.148 2134848333 682 926 233435
Afi sacrificed his own secret
BOOM!
(Take each letter on the keyboard, then slide up to the number above it, following the diagonal.)
u/eaglejarl [+1] (6 hours later)
That's a really clever encoding system. :) Low security, but easy to execute. Nice.
As to the content...no comment. :) Answers will come out next chapter.
u/clawclawbite [+3] (10 hours later)
Given it was 'in order of importance', and loki went on about how the first few books of microtext were all about god stuff, that should be a strong hint of what to worry about now.
Also, book propped open inside room, microscope type effect outside, or possible at a mirror held outside the room...
u/eaglejarl [+1] (11 hours later)
Given it was 'in order of importance', and loki went on about how the first few books of microtext were all about god stuff, that should be a strong hint of what to worry about now.
Interesting point...
u/clawclawbite [+1] (11 hours later)
You have done a really good job of having loki be both helpful and troublesome.
u/eaglejarl [+3] (12 hours later)
Thanks! He's probably my favorite character to write. He's a god, so I can be as zany as I want...and he's also a master manipulator, so I can be deep and tricky. Lots of fun.
u/bbrazil [+2] NERV (27 minutes later)
I'm surprised it took them this long to realise that Afi was trying to take over the ritual. Looking forward to the next chapter.
u/MadScientist14159 [+2] WIP: Sodium Hypochlorite (Rational Bleach) Eventually. Maybe. (42 minutes later)
Okay, this has been bugging me for a while now:
Why hasn't Jake had his wizards summon other Smart People and D&D munchkins from his native plane?
It seems like having Sir Poley and EY as advisors (not to mention some actual military strategists) would come in very handy.
Hell, he could summon engineers to manufacture modern weaponry, sell them to merchants (who then have an infinite supply) and buy back enough to equip everyone in Flobovia.
u/eaglejarl [+2] (an hour later)
Taking those in reverse order:
- The merchants actually couldn't buy them because 'howizter' doesn't appear on any of the equipment lists, so it doesn't have a price.
- There's no way I could write Sir Poley or EY believably, and I'm not going to try. Out of universe: bringing in more and better strategists, Munchkins, etc would make the story boring and confusing.
- Out of universe, see previous point. In universe, the ritual is extremely difficult and can only be executed when the stars are correct, or something. Yeah, let's go with that.
u/Zephyr1011 [+1] Potentially Unfriendly Aspiring Divinity (2 hours later)
How about "the ritual cannot find a specific person for you, just follow general guidelines"
u/eaglejarl [+1] (2 hours later)
Yeah. The original concept / description (chapter 1) of it was that it finds people who match specific criteria appropriate for rulership. In order to get generals or whatever, you'd need to research a new version. Which I suppose could happen, but I've been avoiding custom spells / items.
u/Solonarv [+1] Chaos Legion (6 days later)
cough Rule and Hourglass cough
Then again, those were Wishes.
u/eaglejarl [+1] (6 days later)
Indeed. :)
u/dhighway61 [+1] (2 days later)
I also question whether there are any better military strategists available to Jake than Albrecht and co. An American general with 50 years of experience is nothing compared to Albrecht's command structure.
u/clawclawbite [+2] (4 hours later)
So, if alfi is sacrificing enough secrets to effect the ritual, what important secrets is he giving up? There are not a lot of trivial to the grad scheme of things secrets that undead are likely to consider a 'sacrifice'.
u/bbrazil [+4] NERV (9 hours later)
So, if alfi is sacrificing enough secrets to effect the ritual, what important secrets is he giving up?
The pre-undead memories of each undead?
u/Muskwalker [+1] (10 hours later)
what important secrets is he giving up?
I would say "the location of his phylactery" if 47 didn't suggest that might not work.
u/clawclawbite [+1] (10 hours later)
That is the last secret to give up, if he does not know, how can he protect it?
u/Muskwalker [+3] (17 hours later)
He wouldn't need to if sacrificing the secret makes it unrecoverable.
It wouldn't work because when Jake suggests something comparable (sacrificing the location of Grǫfhamr), the objection was "If you benefit from the knowledge being destroyed, then it isn't a sacrifice."
(Incidentally from the same conversation, "If you have a way to recover the secret then it isn't a sacrifice. That would probably actually hurt her instead of helping" suggests that sacrificing recoverable secrets could be one avenue for sabotaging the ritual.)
u/eaglejarl [+1] (a minute later)
New chapter is up. Could also have been titled "In Whyche Our Heroes Are Afrighted By Greate Thyngs" but that seemed wordy.
u/Zephyr1011 [+1] Potentially Unfriendly Aspiring Divinity (39 minutes later)
Well, that explains why no one was resurrected. I'd been wondering.
We haven't really gotten any new information from Loki's answer, since the black flames were near certainly significant, but it still feels like an Oh shit moment. I would have guessed something along the lines of an alternate ritual, but Loki said that can't happen. Could the evil gods be interfering? I really want to read an expositiony answer about the gods.
Also, why didn't Jake add caveats to his question like "the answer must be in an easily readable format"?
u/MadScientist14159 [+3] WIP: Sodium Hypochlorite (Rational Bleach) Eventually. Maybe. (47 minutes later)
Red Flame is the normal state, Black Flame is what you get when the invisible evil drauga has just sacrificed yet another secret.
u/eaglejarl [+1] (an hour later)
It's going to come out next chapter, so a hint now shouldn't matter: you may want to reread what Loki said.
u/Zephyr1011 [+3] Potentially Unfriendly Aspiring Divinity (3 hours later)
Rereading the last few chapters, I've found a few relevant seeming quotes
she's the friggin' Goddess of Secrets and Knowledge. She's always been one of the primary allies that any god needs—or needs to neutralize—when things get serious.
Once she's reified, she'll be inherently grateful to her creators, and highly motivated to help her worshippers."
"Well, simply put, no. Starting a ritual like this requires abilities that undead simply don't have. So, no, he can't do his own copy of this ritual on his own ground and resurrect her before you finish yours, which is what I figure you really wanted to know.
There is a motive for Afi and the death gods to get Herrun on their side, because she's insanely useful. Or to neutralise her. They clearly think they'll benefit from her being resurrected or they would have intervened. She's inherently grateful to her creators, and is implied to have her personality shaped by them. This may also extend to alignment. So, Afi seems to be probably sacrificing secrets to her from his army of undead, to shape her to be evil. Black seems a likely color for evil, so that part makes sense.
Either Afi has his own ritual or is using their's. Loki says no undead could start the ritual or on undead land, but Afi must have some living minions, so it's still possible that he started another elsewhere. But that would imply some strange connection between their flame colors, so it's admittedly less likely. So, that leaves him using their ritual. Could the dragua run though their camp freely? They're not exactly friendly. And no one has mentioned hearing invisible dragua say prayers or the flames growing higher, again counting against it.
And there's the ash mystery, which I have literally no idea about.
Jake really needs to take care of his PTSD. It's getting a bit repetitive. This seems like it might be foreshadowing of it making a real difference later, or just an adherence to realism. I am unsure
u/eaglejarl [+1] (7 hours later)
Jake really needs to take care of his PTSD. It's getting a bit repetitive. This seems like it might be foreshadowing of it making a real difference later, or just an adherence to realism.
It can't be both? :)
u/Nepene [+1] (2 hours later)
I'm looking forward to the next chapter, though this one was a bit less fun. It was certainly well written and excellently, done, but most of it was centred on them not being able to do resurrections and the obvious truth that Afi had done something bad, not much new or actiony and it didn't contain much new information. On the challenge, reading the book...
Although there's no psionics... The skill autohypnosis (from psionics stuff) would be very useful. You can memorize 800/6 non magical words per second, no limit on font size. You could use it to find useful info.
I suppose he'll probably use polymorph any object to duplicate it, though I'd argue that true creation would better since the only stated limit is crafting skill, max 20.
It might be possible to bypass the antimagic. "Immunity to Magic (Ex)
A flesh golem is immune to any spell or spell-like ability that allows spell resistance. " Scholar's touch doesn't allow spell resistance. Depends on what magical immunity he granted them.
If you can remove the book from the library or block the antimagic emanation with a copper sheet (check exactly where it comes from) or use invoke magic you can then use scholar's touch.
u/Riddle-Tom_Riddle [+1] (7 hours later)
Can I get clarification on the mind blank thing at the early part of this chapter? I don't think I fully understand.
Afi did mind blank and invisibility on himself and cast an ice assassin targeted.. at himself? Then he walked into Gr fhamr and his Ice Assassin followed him? I think I need a step-by-step playthrough of that, because I'm trying to read through it and my eyes just gloss right over that section.
u/eaglejarl [+3] (7 hours later)
Sure, no problem.
- Invisibility means no one can see you...
- Unless they have True Seeing, which can see through Invisibility...
- Unless you have Mind Blank which, in a world that works by revoltingly strict RAW, prevents True Seeing from seeing through your Invisibility.
The relevant text from Mind Blank is:
"This spell protects against all mind-affecting spells and effects as well as information gathering by divination spells or effects. "
This is intended to cover things like Scrying and Detect Evil, but that's not what it says. What it says is 'divination spells'. True Seeing is in the Divination school, so Mind Blank prevents it from working on you.
As to the Ice Assassin: Afi cast IA on himself at some point -- could have been centuries ago, doesn't matter. That gave him a duplicate of himself (well, himself as he was at the time he cast it). The duplicate must obey his every command, so today he ordered it to put Invisibility and Mind Blank on itself and then go into Grǫfhamr and try to talk to Jake and the others.
Does that make sense?
u/Zephyr1011 [+2] Potentially Unfriendly Aspiring Divinity (14 hours later)
What prevents Loki creating an insanely powerful army of ice assassins? Are there limits on how many you can have at a time?
u/alexeyr [+3] Steersman (22 hours later)
Why would Loki need them? And if you mean Afi, he already has an insanely powerful army.
u/Riddle-Tom_Riddle [+1] (7 hours later)
Yeah, that was very helpful, thank you.
u/LeonCross [+1] (21 hours later)
I'm a little outdated on my munchkin foo, but isn't ice assassin part of the pun-pun combo?
u/eaglejarl [+1] (a day later)
No, Pun-Pun just needs Manipulate Form, a familiar, and a particular set of levels.
u/Traiden04 [+1] (2 days later)
u/eaglejarl [+1] (4 days later)
That would definitely be a huge problem for our heroes, and I would never do something like that, would I? :)
Fortunately, you'll find out next chapter.
u/Zephyr1011 [+1] Potentially Unfriendly Aspiring Divinity (6 days later)
Is that door to Loki's massive bookshelves fixed in place? Or does it appear wherever the keyholder is? And as they are currently in a temporary Magic Mansion thing, will it disappear when that is dispelled?
And, would anything like "If I hadn't asked you this question, what are the question answer pairs for the next 10 question answer pairs I'd have asked you while holding this inkwell, awarded for the cost of a single question?" work?
u/eaglejarl [+2] (6 days later)
No, yes, no, and heck nope, respectively. :)
u/Zephyr1011 [+1] Potentially Unfriendly Aspiring Divinity (7 days later)
So, it is an emergency magic proof bunker then. Complete with convenient shields. Is there any way to access it without the key, if the door is shut? Pity it's an anti-magic zone, or they could move Grofhamr there.
u/eaglejarl [+1] (7 days later)
As to how to access it without the key, they haven't checked yet, so they don't know of any way. Which doesn't speak to if there is one or not, of course.
As to the rest, you'll see. :)