24 KiB
The Two Year Emperor, Chapter 56 "Fire and Water" is up
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Author: u/eaglejarl *
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URL: https://www.fanfiction.net/s/9669819/56/The-Two-Year-Emperor
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Score: 18
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Created: 2014-08-09T08:55:21
Post:
Comments:
u/Chronophilia [+4] sci-fi ≠ futurology (55 minutes later)
Jake's in a pickle now! Well, he's essentially been in a constant state of pickling since the start of the story, but now especially.
Afi's presence is highly disturbing. He's far too clever to try something that already failed once. The only different thing that I can see is Loki's presence.
Is Loki going to chair the negotiations between Afi and Jake? That would be hilarious.
u/eaglejarl [+3] (3 hours later)
"Is Loki going to chair the negotiations between Afi and Jake? That would be hilarious."
That would be funny, wouldn't it? Hmmmm.... ;)
u/clawclawbite [+3] (12 hours later)
So, the value of a secret is partially that it is not shared. All of the ice assassins should have the same starting knowledge base, so the more their are, the less value each sacrifice should be.
u/JanusTheDoorman [+1] (14 hours later)
Herrun's secondary domain was knowledge, secret or not. Some of the things the assassins were stated to be sacrificing, such as knowledge that they had spell levels, wasn't secret at all.
u/alexanderwales [+3] Time flies like an arrow (15 hours later)
It still seems kind of worthless, since it's the same knowledge sacrificed over and over and over. Like if I made twelve billion clones of myself and lobotomized each one of them, would that count for twelve billions times as much as just lobotomizing myself to Herrun? Intuitively I would think that there would be diminishing returns, but I don't know whether that would hold true in Stupidworld.
u/JanusTheDoorman [+4] (16 hours later)
I think the "appeal" for Herrun is not just in being let in on the secret, but that the one performing the sacrifice loses the knowledge and can never regain it, thus it becomes secret from them - each sacrifice makes the devotee aware that there's knowledge that's simply, completely beyond them, thus making them more inclined to want to be in the good graces of the goddess of secrets and knowledge so that the things they don't know might be less likely to bite them in the ass. After making the sacrifice, EVERYTHING you don't know might have been a hugely important secret you gave up to Herrun.
Jake's sacrifice of knowledge the Loki is playing both sides of the war leaves him hugely vulnerable to the repercussions of Loki's machinations. Albrecht previously chided Jake for failing to account for unknown unknowns, but now he knows he sacrificed some hugely important knowledge to Herrun. He doesn't know what it is, but Herrun does, and he KNOWS Herrun does, so he's probably gonna want to be her best friend in a way that's even more personal than the "Get a new God-Level Playing Piece on the Board on Our Side" motivation that led them to the idea of resurrecting Herrun.
I would think that if Herrun would be nonplussed about the Ice Assassin sacrifices for any reason it would be that since the Ice Assassins are temporary existences, and when they dissipate Afi is still wandering around knowing everything they knew, there's no one with the sense of knowledge/secret based vulnerability that she could exploit or would make them germane to worshiping her.
In your example, if the clones had been ritually pseudo-lobotomized but still knew how/why they had been - that is, that worshiping Herrun to keep them safe was their best chance, then I imagine she would find such a sacrifice acceptable, to whatever degree she prefers legions of mentally deficient devotees to one mentally deficient one.
I'd hypothesize that in general, Herrun prefers secrets/knowledge that leave the devotee vulnerable but no less capable, so that dead Ice Assassins sacrificing useful combat knowledge and capabilities are not too close to the top of her list, but likely are neither millions of Grofhamrites with no class levels.
And, while I've got your attention, congrats on writing the best Superman story I've ever read!
u/drageuth2 [+2] (2 days later)
In your example, if the clones had been ritually pseudo-lobotomized but still knew how/why they had been - that is, that worshiping Herrun to keep them safe was their best chance, then I imagine she would find such a sacrifice acceptable
ooo, that gives me a thinky-thing!
When you polymorph something, it gains knowledge of the form, right? PAO up a dragon and it knows how to breathe fire, for example.
Do PAO'd people have knowledge of how to speak Common? I'm p-ret-ty certain that Common is close enough to being a racial feature of humans, no?
What if you Perma-PAO up a bunch of people, and then have them sacrifice their knowledge of how to speak common? Could get a whole horde of very vulnerable people that way. The only thing they'd have to communicate with/through would be the Goddess herself. That'd make them excellent worshippers. Especially since with (presumably) empty-ish minds, they could be shaped to anything she wants!
Hell, even if they can't speak, you could use Tongues and some manner of not-quite-mind-control to convince the PAO-people to give up their knowledge of how hands and legs work, or something. Or you could PAO up some baby dragons and control them into giving up how their breath weapons work.
That'd prolly be a pretty evil solution, but hey.
u/eaglejarl [+1] (19 hours later)
Ice Assassins are not temporary. Until they kill their target, they are just as permanent and as real as any other creature. Since Afi is both their target and their creator, he was able to order them to "Never harm or kill me, and always act in my best interest" and they are forced to obey. As such, the Ice Assassins can never complete their mission and so they are completely permanent.
They are separate beings from Afi and, as such, their sacrifices are just as valid as his would be.
u/clawclawbite [+1] (2 days later)
In that case, a compelled sacrifice is not a sacrifice, it is just mental self-harming.
You need to mean prayers, not just say them. That is why Holy Casters are Wis, not Int.
u/eaglejarl [+1] (2 days later)
Afi ordered his Ice Assassins to "want to, and do, always act in my best interest". The Ice Assassins want to do this because they know it will help Afi.
u/clawclawbite [+1] (2 days later)
That is still mind control.
On the other hand, real world religions use prayer wheels to pray, and that is even less agency.
u/eaglejarl [+1] (2 days later)
My take on it is that the commands given by the creator are not simply mind control as you would get from a Dominate Person, they become part of the creature'a basic nature. This is why all forms of mind control magic allow saving throws and methods to break free, but an Ice Assassin's loyalty does not.
If that doesn't work for you, choose a justification that does. Point is, it works in Stupidworld.
u/clawclawbite [+1] (2 days later)
Fair enough.
This is just the only trick you've pulled out that has made me go 'really?' as opposed to 'awesome!' and there have been enough of those that I have high exoectations now.
u/eaglejarl [+2] (2 days later)
Heh. Well, if this is the first time that's happened in 220,000 words then I'm feeling pretty good. :)
u/eaglejarl [+3] (19 hours later)
"Like if I made twelve billion clones of myself and lobotomized each one of them, would that count for twelve billions times as much as just lobotomizing myself to Herrun?"
Yes.
"Intuitively I would think that there would be diminishing returns"
Nope.
Ice Assassin is unbelievably broken, and it's even more broken in this particular case.
u/Zephyr1011 [+1] Potentially Unfriendly Aspiring Divinity (a day later)
Now that they know of Ice Assassin, does Jake have any mages capable of casting it?
u/eaglejarl [+1] (a day later)
Capable of it? Yes. Any 17th level wizard could cast a 9th level spell. None of them know it, though.
u/ulyssessword [+3] (13 hours later)
They want to put hundreds of people in a small spot? Has Jake had a look at the Grapple rules yet?
Start with one person, let's say Albert. Benjamin, Bart, Bobby, and Betty all grapple him. Then, Cory, Catheryn, and Curtis grapple Benjamin; Carrie, Carland, and Catelyn grapple Bart; Caden, Cecelia, and Caesar grapple Bobby; and Caligula, Cain, and Cal grapple Betty. This can continue on with people like Derek, Ernie, Francis, and Gertrude adding more and more layers to the grapple.
This allows infinite people in one square, if you continue with that pattern. Better, each person can move the entire group 1/2 their movement per round, so it might be able to supplement the commoner railgun as well.
u/eaglejarl [+3] (14 hours later)
I had cottoned on to the fact that you can fit infinite people in a square as long as they are all helpless, and you are helpless if you are "bound." Bound is a very flexible and undefined-by-D&D word. If you tie someone's hands together, they are "bound" but still able to move freely. So, tie everyone's hands and you can stack the entire population into one square.
I did actually look at the grapple rules, but wasn't certain if it worked or not, because of the line "If you can’t move into your target’s space, you can’t maintain the grapple and must immediately let go of the target." I THINK your trick works, but I wasn't completely certain.
Thanks for pointing it out, though. :)
u/GeneralSCPatton [+7] (16 hours later)
Well, here is the grapple ball of speed, if you need it.
u/eaglejarl [+3] (19 hours later)
blink blink Oh my god, that is horrible! I love it, thank you!
That is so going to make an appearance.
u/Zephyr1011 [+1] Potentially Unfriendly Aspiring Divinity (a day later)
Can people grapple on to the altar bearers without them losing their balance?
u/eaglejarl [+1] (a day later)
I don't believe there's anything in RAW, but I would say no.
u/ulyssessword [+1] (19 hours later)
That's the post that my googling failed to find. Thanks for linking it.
u/GeeJo [+1] Custom Flair (a day later)
For some reason known only to the Gods, as soon as anyone comes up with this exploit, this music begins playing from an unknown source.
u/eaglejarl [+2] (11 seconds later)
New chapter is up.
u/Zephyr1011 [+2] Potentially Unfriendly Aspiring Divinity (2 hours later)
I don't quite get why the altars are being moved. Is this to move the ritual away from Afi? Relocate it to another plane? And why can't the altars just be put on a floating disk without the need for bearers, or teleported?
Also, how many ice assassins does Afi have?! Is there a limit? Or can he just make an army of them and crush all of his enemies? This latest voice seems like it ought to be yet another ice assassin, as I doubt Afi would risk himself. But how does he plan to deal with the anti magic field? He has Loki with him, but I doubt Loki is allowed to help him as that would favor a side. Perhaps Loki is there to run negotiations between them? I can't really see any other plausible explanation, given that Loki must remain neutral.
And why weren't the people of Grofhamr sacrificing multiple secrets in the first place? Would it have taken too long?
u/eaglejarl [+3] (3 hours later)
The altars are being relocated to a new location that Afi isn't targeting. They can load them on the Floating Disks, but picking them up to put them on the disks requires incredible precision. Once they are on the disks, they will stay level on the roll and pitch axes, but they still need to worry about yaw and Z-axis so they have to move slowly.
It is possible to make multiple Ice Assassins of the same creature. The spell does not have an inherent limit on number of duplicates. Also, Afi is thousands of years old.
Who said Loki had to stay neutral? His alignment is Neutral, but that doesn't mean he can't take sides, it just means he doesn't give a damn about Law, Chaos, Good, or Evil.
The Grǫfhamrites were sacrificing one at a time because it made a good balance between how effective they were and how much they were giving up. They didn't know that anyone was interfering, so one per person seemed reasonable.
u/Zephyr1011 [+1] Potentially Unfriendly Aspiring Divinity (3 hours later)
I think I was misinterpreting this line when I thought Loki had to remain neutral
Loki is helping our side, but doing it subtly. He is playing both sides of this war against each other
I'd thought it meant he couldn't openly favour either side. But given that he has been helping Jake and co quite a lot, albeit as part of deals, him helping Afi would also make sense. But in order for Jake and co to not just be obliterated, if he is helping Afi, he can't be doing it too much, or lending him power.
u/Chronophilia [+1] sci-fi ≠ futurology (4 hours later)
It means he is currently being neutral, to serve his own ends. And Jake doesn't know that, since he sacrificed that particular secret. Afi probably knows it.
u/JackStargazer [+2] Primordial Apologist (3 hours later)
Is this to move the ritual away from Afi?
Yes. A wizard or sorcerer can onl;y telkeport to an area they know or have seen before, which Afi clearly has when it comesa to their current location. As such, they requently move everything to prevent constant teleport attacks.
u/Riddle-Tom_Riddle [+2] (18 hours later)
Holy crap.
Holy crap.
Just. Wow.
I thought Afi would have done a few sacrifices, not one point two five million!
Shit.. I'm going to have to familiarize myself with the rules a lot more to keep up.
Also, if the ice assassins each sacrifice the same thing, that would just seem wrong. e.g.:
Afi makes a million Ice Assassins.
Each one sacrifices knowledge of the same spell(say, magic missile)
Repeat for nine more spells, then dispel the Assassins.
Afi doesn't lose knowledge of the spells, because his assassins did the sacrificing.
Herrun now has ten million sacrifices to her name and is OP.Doesn't the power Herrun gets from a sacrifice equal less if nothing is truly lost or you use it for your gain?(e.g.: Afi: "My phylactery is hidden at x,y,z. Now no one can find it, muahaha.")
I was considering different stories and the amount of enjoyment I got from them and realized that I ranked your story up in the top tier with the likes of HPMoR, Worm, and a few that probably aren't as well known. Here's what contributed to that, in no particular order after the first bit:
The obvious two, mechanics of the English language, and a good story.
Although it's not finished, you update like clockwork, once a week. This allows for time to consider the latest chapter and its implications without forgetting what has happened since last time.
Being able to discuss what's happened in the latest chapter is awesome, other people often have insights into things I wouldn't consider. +Bonus points for the author being part of the community in which we discuss the story.
Your story is now approaching mid-length on my personal scale of how long I like stories(500k~ish words is where I start to consider them 'long'), and is suitable for rereading, providing expected future enjoyment.
All-in-all, this is an excellent work, thank you!
:)
u/eaglejarl [+2] (19 hours later)
"Also, if the ice assassins each sacrifice the same thing, that would just seem wrong."
Yep. That's exactly what they did. I'll save you a little worry however: Afi does not, in fact, have one million Ice Assassins of himself.
"Doesn't the power Herrun gets from a sacrifice equal less if nothing is truly lost or you use it for your gain?(e.g.: Afi: "My phylactery is hidden at x,y,z. Now no one can find it, muahaha.")"
Yes. That might actually be harmful to the ritual. Although, if Afi were to sacrifice that it wouldn't render his phylactery unfindable by someone else -- only by him. And if the phylactery were moved then he could find it at its new location. If he actually planned to do that when he made the sacrifice then it would fall into the "you're cheating and this sacrifice does not help" category, but if he had legitimately never had the idea to do that then it would still count as a sacrifice.
"...then dispel the Assassins."
There's no reason to dispel the assassins. Even if you've ripped all useless knowledge from them and left them as mindless husks, they are still physical duplicates of you and make great decoys. Also, Ice Assassin is not actually dispellable -- it has a duration of Instantaneous, meaning that it creates a creature and then is done. The creature is just as real as anything else.
In point of fact, the spell does not specify what happens to an IA after it kills its target. I ruled that it goes away, but that's my interpretation -- effectively a house rule.
[You like the story]
Wow.
I'm...really flattered. Thank you. I don't actually know what to say beyond that.
Out of curiosity, what are those 'less well know' stories that you mentioned?
u/Riddle-Tom_Riddle [+1] (20 hours later)
The first one that came to mind is actually a ~4.5 million word multi-story saga of My Little Pony thrown through Ragnorok and a whole bunch of other Norse mythology. One Hel of an epic. (99 Worlds Saga by BlackRoseRaven)
Wastelands of Time and its sequel, Heartlands of Time by joe6991. HJP finds Atlantis and a secret magic to send his soul back in time a few years. Repeatedly. Thousands of times. Despite Harry's complete badassery, Voldemort always wins. Heartlands is incomplete and hasn't been updated since October of 2012, but I still go back and reread both of them every 6~8 months.
Prince of the Dark Kingdom by Mizuni-sama. Voldemort doesn't get defeated in 1981, and takes over Magical Britain. 1.2 million words and still going, but long waits between updates. Pretty heavy on international politics.
Of all the top-tier fiction I've read, those are the only ones I remember, that I also don't remember being mentioned on reddit.
u/Shrlck [+1] Dragon Army (2 days later)
"Also, if the ice assassins each sacrifice the same thing, that would just seem wrong." Yep. That's exactly what they did. I'll save you a little worry however: Afi does not, in fact, have one million Ice Assassins of himself.
Uhmm... that looks as a low cost sacrifice. It appears to me that the "size" of the sacrifice is proportional to the loss you are incurring due to the sacrifice, this is, the benefit of an Ice Assasin sacrificing everything they know is proportional to the cost of losing most of an Ice Assasin.
u/eaglejarl [+2] (2 days later)
An Ice Assassin is an autonomous being. The loss of one of its spell slots is not of much cost to Afi but it is of tremendous cost to the Ice Assassin who is doing the sacrificing.
The fact that the creatures doing the sacrificing happen to be Ice Assassins is no more important than the fact that the Grofhamrites doing the sacrificing happen to be humans.
I'm not sure why this seems to be a sticking point for so many people.
u/Shrlck [+1] Dragon Army (3 days later)
Maybe because when gods are involved, in the rest of the story their interpretation of "fair" and "unfair" seem to match ours, and not the RAW.
u/Chronophilia [+2] sci-fi ≠ futurology (2 days later)
Um, this has probably been answered before, but I only just now spotted it.
The Ice Assassin has all of it's target's skills and abilities
So, an Ice Assassin of Afi can cast 9th-level spells. Can they cast Ice Assassin themselves, and self-replicate? Because that would be absolutely bananas.
Ice Assassin has an XP cost of 5000, and the Assassins can't gain XP or level up, so maybe they can't pay XP costs. That's the only reason I can think of not to go full grey-goo.
Well, either that or Afi tried and the gods warned him that, since his Assassins can also cast Wish, his antics fall in the category of "no infinite wish loops".
u/eaglejarl [+3] (2 days later)
Nope, they can't pay XP costs, so no Ice Assassin or Wish or Permanency, or....
u/Zephyr1011 [+1] Potentially Unfriendly Aspiring Divinity (a day later)
The way the mechanics of the ritual were explained in chapter 47 don't really seem consistent with how we've seen it actually work. Did the characters just not understand it?
If you have a way to recover the secret then it isn't a sacrifice
And we have to make sure that the secrets aren't recoverable afterwards
I was under the impression that the secret is wiped from your mind and cannot be restored. As Afi knows everything his assassins are sacrificing, they surely have a way to recover their secrets afterwards otherwise. And yet, they appear to be being considered as equal sacrifices
And, in light of that, lines like this make no sense
If there's anything that we want to be sure the enemy can't find out, we can sacrifice that knowledge. For example, the current location of Grǫfhamr; have one mage choose the next location and take it there, then sacrifice the knowledge of where it is. The next time we move, we take care to make sure that the mage doing the move doesn't know where he's teleporting from."
If only you are affected by the sacrifice, what good would sacrificing the knowledge do?
u/eaglejarl [+3] (a day later)
And in light of that, lines like this make no sense [...]
The next paragraph should clarify that:
"With respect, Your Majesty," Einarr said, in that exact tone that conveys no respect at all. "It doesn't work like that. If you benefit from the knowledge being destroyed, then it isn't a sacrifice. The important part is the sacrifice, the choice to give up personal advantage to aid the Lady."
In other words, Jake was wrong and that doesn't work.
As to the first part...based on what's been shown so far, you're correct.
u/Zephyr1011 [+1] Potentially Unfriendly Aspiring Divinity (a day later)
I mean that Jake's plan doesn't make sense, because a mage not knowing the location won't affect Afi finding it. Whereas Einarr says it wouldn't work because it benefits him, not because the ritual doesn't work like that. And your mention of what I've "been shown so far" makes me extremely suspicious. This seems like it may be leading up to another "everything we have been told is a lie" moment
u/eaglejarl [+2] (2 days later)
Killing some epileptic trees here:
Everything that's been shown so far is true. Afi has done something sneaky that's allowing him to exploit the rules of the ritual.
Regarding sacrificing the location of the phylactery: I was talking about if Afi sacrifices his knowledge of the phylacteries location. Obviously, someone else sac'ing it is meaningless.
u/Nepene [+1] (a day later)
The ice assassins are potent magic casters. There is obviously some large advantage to them having all that knowledge and power. They are sacrificing thousands of years of Afi's spells to fuel this ritual. It was a very very expensive sacrifice with a very large reward.