18 KiB
[BST] What would a Rational!Fullmetal Alchemist look like? (Spoilers?)
-
Author: u/Subrosian_Smithy Nudist Beach*
-
URL: https://www.reddit.com/r/rational/comments/2ftyt8/bst_what_would_a_rationalfullmetal_alchemist_look/
-
Score: 6
-
Created: 2014-09-08T18:53:10
Post:
Looking at it, the first thing that comes to mind is the absurd power level of alchemy; could you transmute nanotechnology? Does alchemy ignore thermodynamics or does it draw power from somewhere? Why does Truth place such a hugh value on human 'souls'?
I'm particularly fascinated by the idea of a Rational!Brotherhood, with the potential for some truly non-human homunculi.
Comments:
u/alexanderwales [+11] Time flies like an arrow (an hour later)
It depends on how much "do what I mean" is built into alchemy. Given what I remember of the show, there's quite a bit, but I still don't think that you'd be able to just make things that you have no knowledge of (like nanotechnology). Alchemy also seems to completely violate the laws of thermodynamics, replacing them with the law of equivalent exchange (and presumably others). It does seem like it would be much more useful in a non-combat role than a combat role, if only because people are squishy and don't handle being struck by lightning all that well. So either they're in a support role (transmuting hunks of metal into guns for example), heavy artillery (throwing fireballs, or using alchemy to launch heavy rocks), or pretty much anything else but being on the front lines.
I can't remember what it exactly takes to be an alchemist, but I think that if I were the state, I would be outfitting as many people as possible with pre-made alchemy circles that could be activated with only the bare minimum of training.
I think one of my favorite aspects of the show was that all the alchemists had their own little "knack" that they were good at exploiting - I think I would ramp that aspect up as much as possible.
Overall though, I don't think that the lore is particularly ripe for being given the rational treatment - the show does a pretty good job of being clever with the powers as they're presented.
u/DaystarEld [+7] Pokémon Professor (an hour later)
Overall though, I don't think that the lore is particularly ripe for being given the rational treatment - the show does a pretty good job of being clever with the powers as they're presented.
As a straight up rationalist adaptation, agreed. While it's not impossible to do a rationalist fiction off less irrational stories, it certainly leaves less room for "improvement" the better the original is.
That said, a Rational!Edward could have a much bigger goal if they're also a transhumanist.
After accepting the failure of trying to revive his mother, maybe he would persist in trying to use alchemy to end death, through biological alchemy that reversed aging. He would also probably also be able to justify the use of a Philosopher's Stone that's already been made by someone else, rather than reject it for being "evil." The whole question of "what is a soul" is extremely important in a world where you can turn souls into fuel for magic.
u/None [+3] (3 days later)
Combat alchemy is presented as absurdly powerful, at least as practised by some people. Judging by the Ishval scenes with Mustang and Kimbley, I would put the destructive power of at least certain alchemic techniques on par with or higher than that of nuclear weapons. (Mustang in particular is shown singlehandedly literally levelling multiple cities with apparent ease.) That's not a level of destructive capability you can get from a tank.
As for premade circles, it is stated that the knowledge of the transmutation is the primary element required. It would not be possible for an alchemist to utilise a circle they couldn't create themselves. The inability to transfer alchemic artifacts is what leads to the specialisation. You can't just have a doctor draw a circle for you and know a bit about alchemy to heal someone; you have to be an alchemist and a doctor yourself.
Another thing to consider is that the laws of physics are quite different. While we know the chemical elements are the same, chemistry obviously doesn't work the same as in our universe, and it is quite questionable whether something like nanotechnology would even be physically plausible in the FMA universe.
I don't think trying to make a universe based on an overlay of our physical laws will work very well at all really, and that an entirely new set of laws is required.
u/RMcD94 [+0] (18 hours later)
Alchemy also seems to completely violate the laws of thermodynamics, replacing them with the law of equivalent exchange (and presumably others)
Which doesn't seem to be a consistent thing they follow in any case,
u/TimeLoopedPowerGamer [+6] Utopian Smut Peddler (14 hours later)
Somewhere, someone even half-smart compiles a simple ontology involving alchemy, and immediately goes, "wait, how is any of this 'equivalent'?"
Everything immediately breaks when they look at it too closely. And then they are killed by Envy.
But seriously.
could you transmute nanotechnology?
Why would anyone imagine making it in the first place? This is a vaguely industrial revolution tech-level world. Why would someone imagine that there is "room at the bottom" if they don't even know about anything smaller than atoms?
Does alchemy ignore thermodynamics or does it draw power from somewhere?
The show already answers the question about thermodynamics and power draw. Sort of. That means you'd need to make up a better answer, one that doesn't involve magic. Literally magic.
Why does Truth place such a hugh value on human 'souls'?
Maybe Truth's just wrong. Or misunderstood. Or lying. Or talking down to people. This seems like an odd point to bring up.
I'm particularly fascinated by the idea of a Rational!Brotherhood, with the potential for some truly non-human homunculi.
Why would something literally called a "little man" be non-human? Made from humans...
It seems like you want a new story, using the FMA rules for something else entirely. I'd be down for that.
How about this:
Modern day setting, protagonist discovers one of Father's books on alchemy. Rules work like FMA, so rational answers need to be discovered from clues about how it appears to work. Standard expanding power fantasy and such, until alien beings with incredible powers bust in the door and start doing things that seem to violate even the new rules they've been working out for alchemy.
The new enemies (and why are they enemies?) have inhuman names, which represent mental and emotional attributes in their alien species. Think about what "Lust" would mean to a worker ant, for example. Or "Envy" to a tree. These are linked to real world issues for the aliens they are "homunculi" of, but won't be the same as for humans. And might include things that wouldn't matter as much to homosapians.
Our protagonist discovers all the names of the aliens after attempting a human transmutation to save a loved one from dying. They fail, and in the process, they also lose one of their mental faculties with bizarre consequences. This all happens because of a strange alien sitting in front of what looks a lot like a Stargate:SG1 gate. The alien claims to be god. Our protagonist forgets this, which makes things difficult when they wake up without the ability to . But they now have all the names of their foes, and a close English translation of what the words mean...which they got through automatic writing while suffering brain damage. Questionable.
Lots of fights, lots of ontological arguments with readers, all while the protagonist has to protect themselves with alchemy and also compensate for their lost mental ability. This goes on until the protagonist figures out what powers might be possessed by the aliens coming after them and how to counter them by taking advantage of their ultra-focused and limited competencies. The protagonist eventually finds the real villain, the power source, and the reason the aliens are after them in the climactic showdown on Mars. All of which could be worked out by the reader from the start, but it was just obscured by all the fancy lights and fights.
The world as we know it does not survive this story. Clearly.
u/Subrosian_Smithy [+2] Nudist Beach (18 hours later)
Wow. You've given me a lot to think about.
u/oddmeta [+2] (6 hours later)
[Spoilers]
This bit pertains to the first iteration of the series, and is mostly informational. The movie Conqueror of Shamballa that bookended the first series constructed a dual reality setup; with our reality on one side of the gate and the reality of Fullmetal Alchemist on the other side. They laid out that the entire functional premise of alchemy worked because the FMA reality was constantly drawing energy from the "souls" (of the dead, if I'm remembering correctly) in our reality. This, naturally, had all kinds of ramifications for various characters being morally horrified, etc.
[/Spoilers]
u/xjvz [+1] (52 minutes later)
I think the entire concept of a homunculus is irrational. It's philosophical zombies!
u/Subrosian_Smithy [+2] Nudist Beach (2 hours later)
I think that would depend on how a 'soul' works in FMA, and that's something I remember as being vague.
I do seem to recall that having a soul wasn't a prerequisite for self awareness in that universe, though.
u/xjvz [+1] (2 hours later)
Didn't souls power the philosophers stone? Plus there was that gate thing.
u/Subrosian_Smithy [+2] Nudist Beach (4 hours later)
Well, it's a really complicated mess which is ultimately dependant on how Truth (the 'gate thing' you mentioned, who is the source of
magic'alchemy') measures 'value' when applying the principle of Equivalent Exchange.Keep in mind this is Brotherhood talk, I'm only familiar in passing with the first Anime.
Alchemy seems to obey Conservation of Matter and Energy on the surface level of things- but Alchemy can also turn living souls into vast amounts of energy. Enough to conjure notable mass out of what seems to be thin air (Alphonse regrows his metal limbs through a Philosophers Stone at one point and the Homunculi can regenerate their entire bodies multiple times over). So either Truth is objective and Souls really do contain that much energy (which begs the question: how did that energy get there in the first place?) or Truth is biased and paying back more than a soul is (meta?)physically made up of for whatever reason.
Anyway, elaborating on my original point:
If I recall correctly, the Puppet Soldiers of Brotherhood were also Homunculi, but unlike the Sin-based Homunculi produced by Father, they were only capable of acting on base instincts without thought, and had no values other than 'consume the flesh of the living'. The Sin Homunculi, on the other hand, were relatively human-like in mental structure (with less empathy, perhaps) and were definitely capable of higher-order thinking.
That's where I got the idea that merely having a Soul (even stolen) wasn't enough to be self-aware, but looking back now I see it was rather weak evidence.
u/xjvz [+1] (8 hours later)
Whenever Al regenerated himself, I just assumed he was thinning himself out. I mean, it's not like his armor has to protect flesh (most of the time).
I think the sin homunculi were more human (or alive, really) than they gave themselves credit for. However, a rational story involving alchemy would be really neat!
u/None [+2] (8 hours later)
Souls seem to exist in that world. They at least record a person's personality and memories and can think independently and move bodies they're attached to -- even if that body is a suit of armor.
I don't know if brain damage happens in the FMA universe. I don't know if there's any sort of afterlife in the FMA universe. Resurrection isn't available to most people in the FMA universe -- and the sin homunculi are closer to resurrectibility than normal humans.
As such, I can't see whether having a real soul would be an advantage, but I'm leaning towards "no".
u/None [+1] (3 days later)
Souls are what lets you do alchemy. Homonculi, while immortal and able to modify their own bodies in inhuman, but specific and predefined ways, are unable to perform actual alchemy. So yes, there is quite a large advantage.
u/None [+1] (3 days later)
Okay, so it's an advantage, but one that 99.99% of the population does without.
u/None [+1] (3 days later)
I wouldn't say 99.99%. We do see low skill alchemists pretty frequently, but their abilities seem to fall in a power law distribution (which Ed is near the top of), so it's true that most practitioners definitely aren't getting the same benefits as he is. That said it does look like a learned skill rather than an innate one, so any rational character is probably going to want to become a powerful alchemist, ie not excise their soul. Also since homunculi are created from philosopher's stones, it does appear that sentience does require souls. (At one point Envy's true form is shown, and the souls compromising his philosopher's stone are shown in some sort of hell state.)
u/xjvz [+1] (9 hours later)
It could be explained away as a full mind upload. There are some great story ideas you can go with.
u/symmetry81 [+1] (3 hours later)
If one accepts that the value of things is subjective the notion of equivalent exchange stops making sense. I think figuring out what the limits of your system of exchange are and why people misinterpreted them as equal value could be a really interesting plot or subplot. Remember not to come up with one idea and have the hero deduce it, come up six and have the hero test each of them.
EDIT: I only watched the first show and not all of it, so if they actually explore that thoroughly you might have to ignore my advice.
u/duffmancd [+3] (6 hours later)
The manga at least didn't really explore this. Other posters have implied that in the anime Truth (the character) supplies the standard for what is an equivalent exchange. I didn't get that vibe reading the manga, and certainly no one tried to set up a circle of infinite happiness to test the idea.
(Circle of infinite happiness - A likes pies twice as much as cakes, B has the reverse preference. Buy or make one pie give it to A. A exchanges it for two cakes. Give them to B, who exchanges them for four pies. Continue. You now have an exponentially increasing number of cakes/pies)
u/libertarian_reddit [+1] (3 days later)
Probably a lot like rational Harry Potter.
u/rpglover64 [+1] (7 days later)
I think you've given me an excuse to reread the FMA manga and to do NaNoWriMo.
u/Subrosian_Smithy [+1] Nudist Beach (7 days later)
Good luck, man!
u/Sailor_Vulcan [+1] Champion of Justice and Reason (4 months later)
Possible explanation for why human souls are valued so much by "truth". The more complex something is, the more "processing power" it takes for it to exist in the universe. Maybe there's something like file compression involved. The law of equivalent exchange could maybe be something like (most "compressed" form of a body of matter/energy)*(the number of iterations of that form, or the amount of compression)+(transmutation circle)=>transmutation product. A soul could be the most "compressed" form of a human brain. To have a mind but no soul like a homunculus supposedly would be could mean that their brains are truly fractal, or at least each of the components of their brain would be--there would be no "most compressed" unit of matter/energy that their minds are made of. Or rather, the most compressed form of the their minds would be infinitely small, which means you could not use their minds for a philosopher's stone. And putting Greed's soul in a philosopher's stone would disprove that hypothetical fractal. On top of that, Alphonse's ability to continue living in the suit of armor could be explained by this law. Maybe the inside of his suit of armor has the soul iterations of the different parts of his mind bound to the metal by means of an ongoing alchemical reaction. Every time he needs to repair or move the metal in his suit of armor body, it converts some of his soul iterations into metal. And every time he needs to increase his intelligence (or at least the intelligence of a part of his mind), it converts the metal into soul iterations. The limit, of course, is the largest possible conversions of metal iterations to soul iterations and vice versa, which could probably be approximated to the total amount of "stuff" in the suit of armor. And not all iterations would necessarily be the same size. The ratio of armor-metal iterations to soul iterations is probably really large. It's not infinite, but it would still be a REALLY big ratio, probably.
Furthermore, this might explain how Ed would become a rationalist. He studies the mind/soul extensively after his mother's death in order to recreate hers from a single piece of her (this world's equivalent of brain tissue), and of course one of the questions he asks is "can i transmute stuff from my own mind/soul?" Of course, he probably would finds out how dangerous this is, and then he might hypothesize that he has to be completely aware of what parts of his mind/soul he's transmuting and what parts he's not, so as not to get any important parts of himself transmuted. So he makes it a personal project to make himself more self-aware and check to see if that makes it safer for him to transmute stuff from his mind. Of course, it doesn't, and he later might find out why,, how his brain is actually structured and starts delving into neuroscience. He keeps going with the self-awareness/rationalist stuff anyway because its useful, even if it doesn't help him transmute stuff from his own brain.