52 KiB
Pokemon: The Origin of Species, Chapter 13
-
Author: u/DaystarEld Pokémon Professor*
-
URL: https://www.fanfiction.net/s/9794740/13/Pokemon-The-Origin-of-Species
-
Score: 27
-
Created: 2014-10-24T22:08:23
Post:
Comments:
u/Drexer [+13] (14 hours later)
150 articles... that is a lot. A non-quantifiable lot more than anything, as that's a big number even in fields with a huge number of collaborators such as High Energy Physics[1].
Red raises a hand and ticks a finger up one at a time as he speaks. "First, to become a registered Pokemon Researcher, I need to contribute twenty new articles on pokemon from my observations and experiences with mine. I can submit them through the pokedex, but I have to wait for them to be peer reviewed to be accepted."
"Can they be on any pokemon?"
Red nods. "One article on twenty or twenty on one or anything in between. I just need to discover or verify something new. Second, to become a Pokemon Instructor, I need to verify ten results from other people's research with my own pokemon, retesting their conclusions for validity. That's in addition to contributing another thirty articles of my own again. Third, I can apply to become an Associate Professor to work in the lab under Professor Oak, and to qualify for that I need to submit another forty articles and retest thirty more. And finally, once I'm an Associate Professor, I can become a full Professor by disproving ten theories that have already been established, along with a final sixty articles."
And those seem like some very strict, non-flexible and weird guidelines. Specifically when considering it's straddling a line much more incommon with biology than any other hard science.
...
Okay, let me do a mental reset and think about how I would approach this to make sense in the presented world.
Assumptions(correct me if any of those are wrong from what has been setup in the world so far):
-The organized field of Pokémon research is still quite recent as indicated by Oak being one of the first generations Professor's.
-However other scientific fields are quite advanced as evidenced by the technology on display, so measurement methods and common research metodologies and evaluations like the h-index[2] and similar are in place.
-In a similar way, university and research conglomerates also exist and work in conjuction for large projects and data collection. The degress of graduate, masters and doctor also exist in pretty much the same sense, although we can suppose some flexibility when it comes to age compared to the other fields/real world versus the field of Pokémon research.
With that in mind:
The first publications that Red has with his name on it should always be something he helped or collaborated in. If he had an internship at the Pokémon Lab, he was either doing mundane secretarial paperwork and taking care of the Pokémon which would only be translated in monetary gain, or if he was really helping in research projects or in the writing of an article then he should have been properly credited in it. And this actually fits with what we would expect from a research position, he would have to acclimate himself with all the busywork, from statistical analysis methods and evaluation of data to even writing the article according to publication standards(be it learning how to do write in LaTeX or Word for a scientifc publication). He would also probably need some simple programming basis as we're seeing that a lot of quantification of Pokémon data is given by technology, and I'm assuming that the Pokédex probably uses some standards that were developed in computers, so there it probably are languages and API's meant for searching and retrieving data from personal or public databases for Pokémon data.
So, when Red goes on his journeys he should already have some contributions with his name on it, a positive point in his favor, but not a necessary thing to get the Associate Professor status. Now, what is probably wanted by all research institutions and Professors is data. Pokémon are biological machines and unfortunately you can't just reset them to a previous state and test another hypothesis, you can't experiment with the strength of a Charmander's ember pre and post-evolution based on his physical training with the same Charmander, only with a reasonable sized statistical sample(and as we're talking about a biology related field, even the usual rule fo thumb of >30 samples for a statistical normal distribution will probably need to be inflated here[3]).
As such, I would assume that wannabe researchers are encouraged to submit individual analysis and logs of singular Pokémon documenting their evolutions and capabilities along their maturing period. Typical articles would be variations of "Lifetime log of #Species Specymen for #Specific Environment under a #Something Training Regiment", but they would not only prove the capability and experience of the researcher for work when it comes to organization and article-writing, but those various articles would be welcomed as presenting case studies whose anomalies can be evaluated for more advanced research.
Then, besides some 2 or 3 of those articles(or even 6, mirrowing the usual assumption of 6 Pokémon in the story's universe) it would probably be demanded one independent research article, what would probably be a Master's Thesis in our world, where Red would present an article for publication either re-evaluating some previously noticed phenomenom, or analysing something he noticed. His Spinarak is a perfect subject for this kind of thing, something about "Study of ghost-type characterized attacks from anomalous Spinarak specimen" which he would probably need to present in an open room, probably in front of a judge which is evaluating his candindacy for the rank of Researcher.
Once he gains that rank then yes, I think some milestones in terms of articles/citations are more reasonable(as this is pretty much what happens in academia), but probably by evaluating his h-index and not his number of articles only. In a similar way, he would also have to probably present one more advanced work for each of the following degrees I would think. A long-term research and not-before-seen project for his Doctorate/Pokémon Instructor rank and then various publications to associate himself with a laboratory as Assitant Professor/Professor eventually.
Now, one thing I haven't mentioned is the detail of publishing, but assuming the world you've protrayed so far I'm imagining that the publishing of articles is based less around paid articles in journals and more in an open-acess model similar to arXiv which is also what our world seems to be moving towards, this would also fit with the idea of young kids being able to publish articles, while allowing for peer-review nonetheless.
I don't know if I over-engineered this too much or not, considering the story you're telling here, but I do love that you're writting a story that's making me question those kind of things.
PS: Added sources as I thought some people might find it useful for some assertions.
u/DaystarEld [+7] Pokémon Professor (21 hours later)
Lots of great info here that's definitely going to result in edits :) No time currently to respond in depth, just wanted to thank you for taking the time to write all this out, and I'll definitely be back to respond with my rationale and re-evaluate my system.
u/DaystarEld [+7] Pokémon Professor (a day later)
Ok, now I've got time to respond!
You're right in how fluid publishing is. Anyone with a pokedex can submit data on the pokemon they're raising.
The reason for the volume is that I was envisioning the articles as pretty much everything from "On the relationship between gut bacteria and psychic powers" to "The effects of iron in sandshrew diets." In other words, pretty much anything that you can substantiate through your pokedex's data while you train them.
What sets a researcher apart is volume: most trainers catch perhaps a couple dozen pokemon at maximum, and competitive battlers catch even less, in order to focus their attention and training on a core few.
This often makes them experts on the few pokemon they're familiar with, but mostly ignorant on others.
Trainers who take the Researcher->Professor career path however are expected to know about large amounts of pokemon. A few might specialize in less, especially for newly discovered species, but by the time someone is considered a Professor, they need to be capable of heading research on dozens of species, and be moderately familiar with at least the hundred+ native to their region.
So becoming a professor is a time consuming process, but maybe the spread is a bit too wide.
I did originally want to sneak the "150" number in there for fun's sake, but perhaps it's a bit much.
The main problem might really be that there's a wide difference between a study on Red's spinarak's unusual abilities, and noting the effects of a caterpie's diet on the stickiness of its thread.
With all that in mind, I'm considering re-evaluating what the criteria for each milestone is.
Your description of what Red has learned is accurate, but the co-authoring of papers felt a bit too convenient to add: not that his name wouldn't appear on them, but I don't want him to already be considered an independently accomplished researcher.
Edit:
So let's say I shift it to an h-index approach, and weigh widely cited research far more than barely referenced ones (which makes sense). Keeping in mind that becoming a Professor is far harder than becoming a doctor in our world, and that Professors are one of the few leaders of research in an entire region, (for reference, there are roughly three in all of Kanto and Johto), how does this sound?
To advance from a generic Pokemon Trainer to a Researcher, Red needs to submit an independent research article, and to advance from there he has to continue publishing until his h-index of publications and citations reaches 20 for Instructor and 30 for Associate Professor. After that, he has to demonstrate understanding in every native pokemon in his region, and write a dissertation overturning a previous established theory about pokemon.
u/MadScientist14159 [+1] WIP: Sodium Hypochlorite (Rational Bleach) Eventually. Maybe. (a day later)
Disproving ten established theories seems a bit excessive.
What if all current theories are actually correct?
Will you bribe other researchers to establish incorrect theories, so that you have a way to become a professor?
That seems very much against the spirit of science, but I can't see an alternative.
This criteria only really makes sense if the pokemon world is absolutely saturated with incorrect theories of pokebiology, and the minister for science equivalent is desperately trying to clean academia up.
u/DaystarEld [+4] Pokémon Professor (a day later)
Well for one thing, bribing other researchers to establish incorrect theories is pretty improbable. You would have to bribe every major scientist in every region that has pokedexes, and then bribe everyone who sets out to test your theories. Because that's how science works: there's not just one person or group of people who get to decide "what the right theory is."
Second, keep in mind that the scientific examination of pokemon is extremely new, having pretty much started two generations ago :) There are a lot of bad theories out there.
That said, maybe ten is too many: one might be sufficient, assuming it's large enough.
u/traverseda [+2] With dread but cautious optimism (a day later)
They didn't have pokeballs (and all the statistical data that comes with) 30 years ago?
u/JosephLeee [+1] (a day later)
I feel that competitive battlers should have a very good knowledge on other pokemon so that they can combat them effectively.
That means that a competitive battler would probably be suscribed to most of the major pokemon research publications, to keep up with new discoveries, in addition to a collection of existing information on pokemon.
u/DaystarEld [+5] Pokémon Professor (a day later)
Knowing their combat capabilities is one thing: knowing their life cycles, diets, temperaments, habitation, and so on are another :)
Not that the best of the best battlers would't do that, of course, just that the average battle trainer devotes most of their time to training their team.
u/daydev [+4] (18 hours later)
I agree. Described system feels way too much like infamous "Fetch N bear asses" quest.
I suppose, the last level could be justified if Pokemon Professor is not like university professor in our universe, but more like Academy of Sciences of USSR, where full membership was super rare (few hundred members at most for hundreds of thousands of researchers).
But for entry level (Researcher), unless publications are trivial (logs like Drexer describes), I feel like 20 articles is 20 times too many.
That is, if Red is expected to get his Researcher licence any time soon. If it is expected to take him 4-6 years (duration of higher education IRL), then 20 publications is more reasonable.
u/DaystarEld [+6] Pokémon Professor (21 hours later)
Professor is absolutely something that is incredibly rare and takes years to accomplish, but thanks to /r/Drexer's response I'm realizing that I frontloaded too much of it. And yes, "Fetch N Bear Asses" is accurate :) I wanted to tie in the "150" number somehow, but I'll probably ditch it.
u/Aretii [+1] Cultist of Cthugha (4 days later)
Ditch the 150, it jumped out at me and felt incredibly artificial. Drexer's ideas are great.
I just found this chapter, I missed it somehow earlier; it's great and I loved how it ended.
u/DaystarEld [+1] Pokémon Professor (4 days later)
Yep, definitely going to edit it.
And thank you, glad you liked it!
u/DaystarEld [+11] Pokémon Professor (31 seconds later)
Hello everyone, and welcome back! Longest chapter yet, but thankfully got it out ahead of schedule. Also, some fairly substantial edits to announce:
Due to some great feedback from last chapter's post, I realized that I had done a poor job of making Red's goals feel concrete enough. "Become a pokemon champion" is straightforward: collect 8 badges, beat the Elite Four, enjoy your political power and prestige.
On the other hand, the criteria to become a pokemon professor was too vague. "Catch lots of pokemon and research them" is not particularly tangible.
So along with my usual edits to previous chapters, I've added a few paragraphs here and there to clarify Red's goals. Most notably, there are some new lines near the end of chapter 1, and a few paragraphs in the middle of chapter 4. The takeaway is that to advance from a generic Pokemon Trainer to a Researcher, Instructor, Associate Professor, and finally Professor,
Red has to submit a total of 150 research articles on pokemon, retest the conclusions of 40 that have already been submitted, and disprove 10 established theories. He begins to receive payment for submissions when he gets his Researcher license.Edit: Just edited the qualifications to the following thanks to /u/Drexer: To advance from a generic Pokemon Trainer to a Researcher, Red needs to submit an independent research article, and to advance from there he has to continue publishing until his h-index of publications and citations reaches 20 for Instructor and 30 for Associate Professor. After that, he has to demonstrate understanding in every native pokemon in his region, and write a dissertation overturning a previous established theory about pokemon.I've also added a bit to their dinner conversation in chapter five, where Leaf clarifies her interest in regional myths and legends surrounding pokemon for a book she wants to write, along with some tweaks to other chapters to make it more apparent that she's actively seeking such information.
Finally, in this chapter I've renamed some of the Plates for more consistent theming. Because seriously: "Fist Plate?" No.
Hopefully these changes improve the structure of the early story, and make milestones easier to imagine :) Thanks again to /u/AmeteurOpinions for the great feedback, and hope you all enjoy the new chapter!
u/None [+1] (3 hours later)
[deleted]
u/DaystarEld [+3] Pokémon Professor (4 hours later)
It would indeed, though the bulk of it comes at the end to get to the last positions/titles. It breaks down to 20-30-40-60.
u/E-o_o-3 [+4] (18 hours later)
Also, I don't think the thing with the Clefairy (are we supposed to know what she did with the clefairy?) is actually unethical. I also don't think it would constitutes insider trading under any real-life legal system, because it holds intrinsic value and is not a financial asset (an intangible asset that derives value because of a contractual claim).
Also, I think all successful trades based on fluctuations in value rely on either luck, or knowing something that other people do not know (just because it's public knowledge does not mean people know it). It's actually an area of debate as to whether insider trading should be illegal in the first place, and it's fairly difficult to define at what point a piece of information ceases to become "insider" information.
If you generalize Red's mother's argument of "profiting off ignorance" making it deontologically unethical to apply to all cases of profiting off other people not knowing things as quickly as you do (like gray-area information which is neither a secret nor well known) or other people making less accurate predictions using the information that is held in common, then I think you condemn all speculative trading in general as either unethical or pure gambling.
(Consequentially speaking, the economic repercussions are a complex mix of good and bad. You also end up condemning cool things that the rationalist tribe likes, such as prediction markets. Blanket bans on all speculation are unenforceable, anyway.)
Edit: It's totally believable, of course, that Red's mom thinks it is unethical and Red agrees, so you don't have to change the story or anything. A lot of cultures (including my own) have a notion that people who make money without actually producing useful objects, services, or information are using cunning to cheat society, and while I'm not sure they are wrong in that intuition, I'm not sure how to practically apply that naive intuition to decisions made in the complex world of finance. I think what ends up happening is they vaguely feel that money, business, and finance in general are vaguely dirty, which I don't think is the correct conclusion unless we want to abolish ownership and revert back to hunting and gathering / we can get to a true post-scarcity situation.
u/DaystarEld [+3] Pokémon Professor (a day later)
Aside from the course of the story, however, the basic idea in this case was more that the information Red has is privileged: he is not the one that discovered this secret of clefairies, Daisy was. If Daisy wanted to make use of this information to make money, it's much more acceptable, because her work is what will result in the value of the clefairy going up.
Red profiting off it seems somewhat parasitic, and definitely raises my moral hackles: I don't know that he's exactly cheating people, but he's definitely taking advantage of their ignorance, which makes the transaction unfair to me. It's not that they're incapable of determining the clefairy's "true value" and thus think the deal is worthwhile, either. If they had the same information and still wanted to sell it at the same price because they don't think it's worth more or don't think the information matters, that's their error in judgement. Red purposefully seeking them out because they don't, while knowing the information would change their price, makes it predatory, to me.
I'm open to the idea that I might be wrong. It makes little difference to the story, as I'm not writing Red as an author-insert, but as the main protagonist our values are obviously going to have some overlap :)
u/DaystarEld [+2] Pokémon Professor (21 hours later)
They're very much arguing the moral side rather than the legal one, but it's definitely something Red might or might not shift his stance on, depending on who the people that influence his values and thoughts are :)
u/E-o_o-3 [+3] (5 hours later)
How much money would you have accepted on the condition that you tried?
I think this went over my head. How does considering how much money he would accept in order to attempt the dangerous task help him know if he was a coward or not?
u/DaystarEld [+4] Pokémon Professor (5 hours later)
It might not have been couched well enough, but the idea is that it put a concrete value to how confident Red was in his decision.
If there's a price he might have taken to try it, then he must think there was a chance it would succeed (if not he wouldn't collect, obviously).
Realizing there's no price he would take to try it helps make it more tangible that he really didn't think there was a chance it any thin would work.
Does that make sense? I'm open to suggestions on either making it more explicit if it's not, or to the idea that it doesn't make sense at all :P
u/4t0m [+6] Chaos Legion (6 hours later)
Wow, that's not how I interpreted that at all.
From what details you have provided, I would have acted as you did. If that is not sufficient to your sense of responsibility, and you still fear that you acted out of cowardice, consider this: how much money would you have accepted on the condition that you tried? -G
Red lies awake into the next watch change, thinking about it. He eventually responds simply with None, and when he puts his phone away, he sleeps until morning without dreams.
This makes it sound like G is asking, "If you did help, how much of a reward would you have accepted?" and like Red is answering, "I wouldn't have accepted any payment." not "What amount of money would have convinced you to try?" and "There is no amount of money for which I would have tried." I definitely think you should reword this part if you were aiming for the latter set.
u/DaystarEld [+7] Pokémon Professor (8 hours later)
Thanks, changed it to " is there any amount of money that would have convinced you to try?"
u/Anakiri [+3] (3 days later)
I really like the broad strokes of this chapter, but some of the details hurt it, I think. Power Force Ten and League of Heroes help flesh out the culture of the world in an interesting way. But it's not three pages interesting. Power Force Ten made me think back to Blue's type chart in the first chapter, where he had sixteen types. But apparently, it is accepted in pop culture that there are seventeen types? Why the variance? This sticks out because Red is criticizing the very concept of types, but nobody is objecting to anything else about the set up. On the other hand, it is a nice way to talk about the Fairy type in a casual, low-stakes way. That fleshes out the world a lot more than the love triangle between Crystalla, Lung, and Kagari, none of whom exist.
I like the concept of pokemon markets, and the ethics of trading. I do hope that comes back later, since Red really isn't offering the best counterpoints. But I wouldn't expect him to. However, his mother was a lot quicker on the uptake than I was. So far, Red has shown a lot of interest in studying pokemon, and zero interest in making money. He hears a cool new thing about a rare pokemon that is about to be really expensive and he wants to buy one - I conclude that he wants to make sure he has one to study, and I'm momentarily confused when his mom isn't happy with him. I didn't catch on until several lines later, when Red finally says "But I really need the money!"
Oak's reassurances do a good job of setting up a contrast between Red's role models, while also working well on their own. And of course, Red demonstrating the learnable skill of recognizing cognitive dissonance is great.
The discussion of psychic phenomena kind of rubbed me the wrong way though. First, as a minor issue, Red starts taking notes, even though when he was talking to his mom "he hasn't enough light to write by". More seriously, Oak dodges the question. Red asks for theories, and Oak gives him a categorization schema. It would be like if Red asked him how life develops, and Oak tells him that there are animals and there are plants. Trying to avoid theory induced blindness doesn't excuse everything. Even what he does say is slightly annoying to me, in a literary sense. It's an exposition dump; lots of telling, zero showing. It felt like that's not how the story had to tell me this information... but it's fairly short, and it's between two mental exercises that work well, so it's not that big a deal.
Red puts a lot of weight on that "Other" category, even after being told it's extremely noisy. I wouldn't expect him to be able to find a correlation without hundreds of data points and months of dedicated research... And even then he'd be better off ignoring "Other" and just comparing the pokemon code directly to find correlates. Perhaps that's a good long-term project. He's gong to need a lot of spinarak. Good luck, Red.
Giovanni is awesome. In just a few lines, he gives good advice... and also shows himself to be the kind of person who likes putting prices on things. He could be light or dark at this point, and he seems intelligent. I'm quite eager to see more of him, little by little.
u/DaystarEld [+3] Pokémon Professor (3 days later)
I really like the broad strokes of this chapter, but some of the details hurt it, I think. Power Force Ten and League of Heroes help flesh out the culture of the world in an interesting way. But it's not three pages interesting.
Huh. I haven't ever viewed my story in terms of page count, so that does seem a bit excessive now that it's framed that way. Might do some pruning.
Power Force Ten made me think back to Blue's type chart in the first chapter, where he had sixteen types. But apparently, it is accepted in pop culture that there are seventeen types? Why the variance? This sticks out because Red is criticizing the very concept of types, but nobody is objecting to anything else about the set up.
The types are a lot more fluid in different cultures, which is something I wanted to get across subtly but might have shot myself in the foot with here. I'll probably just change Blue's type chart number.
On the other hand, it is a nice way to talk about the Fairy type in a casual, low-stakes way. That fleshes out the world a lot more than the love triangle between Crystalla, Lung, and Kagari, none of whom exist.
Beyond world building, a lot of this was mostly set up for later: I want characters to be trope-savvy, which means I want characters who are aware of the same common/popular story structures. Introducing shows like Power Force Ten now should help make it easier later when someone needs to make a reference.
First, as a minor issue, Red starts taking notes, even though when he was talking to his mom "he hasn't enough light to write by".
Woops. Just noticed I forgot to mention that he's writing by the light of the pokedex, though I definitely remember thinking it. Thanks for catching that :)
More seriously, Oak dodges the question. Red asks for theories, and Oak gives him a categorization schema. It would be like if Red asked him how life develops, and Oak tells him that there are animals and there are plants. Trying to avoid theory induced blindness doesn't excuse everything.
Even what he does say is slightly annoying to me, in a literary sense. It's an exposition dump; lots of telling, zero showing. It felt like that's not how the story had to tell me this information... but it's fairly short, and it's between two mental exercises that work well, so it's not that big a deal.
This is definitely something I struggled with, as I need Red and the audience to know these things before he starts his research on his spinarak, but have no reason for psychic, ghost, and dark pokemon to be in the story yet for "showing." The way I saw it was that someone has to be telling someone else these things, and I really want Oak to have an active role as Red's adviser. Maybe the pokedex can show some simulations that the professor preps for Red to watch. I'll have to think it over for future edits :)
Red puts a lot of weight on that "Other" category, even after being told it's extremely noisy. I wouldn't expect him to be able to find a correlation without hundreds of data points and months of dedicated research... And even then he'd be better off ignoring "Other" and just comparing the pokemon code directly to find correlates. Perhaps that's a good long-term project. He's gong to need a lot of spinarak. Good luck, Red.
One of Red's lacking skills is that he's not a programmer: he knows the basics of coding logic, but the code itself is gibberish, and he doesn't have the resources to do it himself. The idea of the biometrics in the dex is to give people like him the ability to examine things like that without being an expert in them, but unfortunately it hasn't been perfected yet, and there's still a lot of data from the pokemon's code that the pokedex can't parse and label appropriately. So it's a starting point more than anything.
Giovanni is awesome. In just a few lines, he gives good advice... and also shows himself to be the kind of person who likes putting prices on things. He could be light or dark at this point, and he seems intelligent. I'm quite eager to see more of him, little by little.
I hope everyone ends up finding Giovanni as much fun as I find writing/imagining him ^ _^
u/DaystarEld [+1] Pokémon Professor (3 days later)
Forgot to respond to this part:
I like the concept of pokemon markets, and the ethics of trading. I do hope that comes back later, since Red really isn't offering the best counterpoints.
It will :) I'm curious to know what counterpoints you would have made: specific to his circumstances, or on the issue generally?
However, his mother was a lot quicker on the uptake than I was. So far, Red has shown a lot of interest in studying pokemon, and zero interest in making money. He hears a cool new thing about a rare pokemon that is about to be really expensive and he wants to buy one - I conclude that he wants to make sure he has one to study, and I'm momentarily confused when his mom isn't happy with him. I didn't catch on until several lines later, when Red finally says "But I really need the money!"
I had to go back to check and make sure, but I actually did write "I really need the money" near the beginning of the conversation. Then I realized I had also written it at the end with emphasis, and now that bugs me, so I'm going to rewrite it a bit to clarify that he wants the money to buy supplies like TMs and stuff :) So thanks for pointing that out!
u/Anakiri [+1] (3 days later)
Basically, I'd follow E-o_o-3's lead. All speculative trading is based on imperfect information. How much do you have to share before it is "fair"? Say you tell them that there has been a new discovery about Clefairy that researchers will be interested in. They shrug and keep the price the same. Is the trade fair now? Or are they mostly combat pokemon traders, who just don't know that researchers are a large part of the market? Are you obligated to give them that information as well? If you think they're not being rational, are you obligated to give them a two week correspondence course on cognitive biases before it's fair to take advantage of their poor decisions? Otherwise, you'd be taking advantage of their ignorance.
On the other hand, all the traders ought to know that pokemon research is ongoing. At any time, someone may discover something that will make the price shoot up. By selling now, instead of waiting a week to see what happens, they have already decided to shoulder that risk. And, therefore, they have already decided that they are okay on missing out that potential profit - which is not the same thing as losing money! They are making what they consider to be a fair profit no matter what you do. Of course they'd prefer to make the greater profit that you expect to make - but they've already considered that and written it off.
Ultimately, I think I agree with Red's mom. Red probably already agrees with her too, so it doesn't bother me that he's trying to make it sound less evil instead of attacking the main premise of the argument. (What if I only steal from rich people?) But it's not necessarily a cut and dry issue.
u/DaystarEld [+1] Pokémon Professor (4 days later)
I'm a little confused, since you seem to make two arguments against his mom's position, and then said you agree with her? But that might just be because of the unmentioned variable, which I might not have done a sufficient job explaining in the story: her main objection is that Red is taking advantage of something he had no part in to profit.
If Daisy chose to invest in clefairy before unveiling her new discovery, that would be fine, since it's her discovery and work that resulted in the increased clefairy value. Similarly, if Daisy had specifically told Red so he could do so, that would probably make it more acceptable. But since Laura was privileged enough to be told about it, and Red heard it second-hand from her, she feels like Red "doesn't deserve" the advantage in information he'd be utilizing.
Say you tell them that there has been a new discovery about Clefairy that researchers will be interested in. They shrug and keep the price the same. Is the trade fair now?
Absolutely: both have access to the same information. Their lack of judgement that the information should value it higher is their mistake. Or, if they just don't care, that's their decision.
If you think they're not being rational, are you obligated to give them a two week correspondence course on cognitive biases before it's fair to take advantage of their poor decisions?
I draw a line between "not being rational" and "not having access to the same information." Maybe it's an irrational line to draw, but there's sufficient barrier between what it takes to make a rational decision and an informed one that it feels real to me.
And again, the access to the information is important. If it were widely available, then it's their fault for not sufficiently researching a thing before selling it. If it's information reserved for a privileged few, the circumstances of how they know what they do matters.
But it's not necessarily a cut and dry issue.
Yeah, and I'm definitely going to be revisiting it in the story :) What Laura objects to is Red making money, not off his own cleverness, but off of simply knowing Daisy. Off luck, basically. Which isn't a big deal if the value is being created independently, but in this case it's being trasnferred from others.
u/Anakiri [+1] (4 days later)
I'm a little confused, since you seem to make two arguments against his mom's position, and then said you agree with her?
Hey, you asked me what counterpoints I would have made, not what I actually think! XP Being able to argue against your own position is an invaluable skill.
If Daisy chose to invest in clefairy before unveiling her new discovery, that would be fine, since it's her discovery and work that resulted in the increased clefairy value.
I'm not sure if I agree on that. Yes, it is her own work, and her own cleverness, and she is actually contributing something of value... but she would still be profiting off information that she knows the other party doesn't know. If it's okay because she "deserves" it, then that can't be your true objection. As a moral argument, "You shouldn't exploit people's ignorance... unless you earn it!" is not very solid. "You shouldn't exploit dumb luck to profit off people," is a completely different argument. It might even be mutually exclusive, depending on the details.
I draw a line between "not being rational" and "not having access to the same information."
But people aren't just inherently rational or not. You have to learn how to be rational. You need access to a certain amount of information to become rational. Is that not a part of what is motivating you to write this work in the first place? I don't think there is a difference in kind, it's just that some pieces of information is more directly related to the decision than others. You have to draw a line on how closely related the information has to be before you are morally obligated to share it, and that is debatable. If I wanted to really argue against Laura, that's the point I would hammer on. But I'd be surprised if Red really wanted to disagree. I think he just found a clever way of making money easily and is being a bit petulant about it. That's more important to the story right now, I think.
u/DaystarEld [+1] Pokémon Professor (4 days later)
Hey, you asked me what counterpoints I would have made, not what I actually think! XP Being able to argue against your own position is an invaluable skill.
You're right, for some reason when you said you were following E-o_o-3's lead I thought you meant you were in agreement with him/her :) I appreciate you helping me think through the arguments, just wanted to make sure I wasn't misinterpreting yours.
If it's okay because she "deserves" it, then that can't be your true objection. As a moral argument, "You shouldn't exploit people's ignorance... unless you earn it!" is not very solid.
It's not quite "unless you earn it," as "earn" in that phrase is ambiguous. How does one "earn" other's ignorance, or the exploitation of it?
Here's an imprecise analogy: let's say I discovered a new use for a certain chemical that will make it much more valuable to everyone.
Once I reveal that use, everyone will be capable of using it for its new, valuable function. But until then, the value is reliant on my work and will: I'm the one whose effort must alter the state of nature, so to speak, and reveal this new value to others. It makes sense to me that I should profit off my own work in such a way.
Which is why this:
"You shouldn't exploit dumb luck to profit off people," is a completely different argument. It might even be mutually exclusive, depending on the details.
Is directly related, I think, since one relies on your work and the other doesn't.
u/Anakiri [+1] (4 days later)
Here's an imprecise analogy: let's say I discovered a new use for a certain chemical that will make it much more valuable to everyone.
Once I reveal that new use, everyone will be capable of using it for its new, valuable function. But until then, the value is reliant on my work and will: I'm the one whose effort must alter the state of nature, so to speak, and reveal this new value to others. It makes sense to me that I should profit off my own work in such a way.
Sure it makes sense, but you still lack a mutual understanding of value. The person you're buying from doesn't know as much as you do, and you know it. You are deliberately taking advantage of their ignorance. You know the buyer wouldn't take the deal if they knew what you would do with it; they'd rather profit off your work themselves, or at least sell the chemical to you at a higher price.
All of Laura's arguments still hold. Nothing she says depends on whether or not you discovered the information of which the seller is ignorant. If that makes a difference then you're not really condemning the exploitation of ignorance, as far as I can tell. Exploiting ignorance is completely okay as long as it's your fault their information is suddenly outdated, so it doesn't seem like you have a problem with that part. You're only condemning leeching off others' work, which is not the argument that is presented in this chapter.
u/DaystarEld [+1] Pokémon Professor (4 days later)
Hmm. I feel like there's room for it to be more complex than that:
- I think profiting off others' ignorance is wrong.
This was Laura's argument. I don't think it's necessarily correct as an absolute statement, but agree with it generally.
- I think profiting off someone else's work is wrong.
This is something I agree with much more strongly.
But the most accurate perspective that I can write is:
I think it's wrong to profit off your ignorance, which I do not share by dumb luck.
I think it's okay to profit off my hard work, the fruits of which you are ignorant of.
Does that make more sense?
u/Anakiri [+4] (4 days later)
Yes, that's fair. I was mostly pointing out that 4 directly contradicts 1.
I'd also like to point out that you can vary the definition of "hard work" to come up with all kinds of sensible philosophies. Red didn't get the information by dumb luck! He had the foresight to cultivate a relationship that would predictably lead to such advantages. Or, Daisy got the information by dumb luck! She just happened to stumble across the right series of events to make an observation that anyone could have made! And there you more or less have the difference between Ayn Rand and Karl Marx... So that's very much an entire discussion on its own.
Personally, I prefer to stick with just 1 and 2. It's fine with me if you buy widgets to make foobars, and you sell foobars at a profit. But it doesn't sit well with me if you buy widgets to make foobars, so you can sell widgets at a profit when everyone wants their own foobars. It just feels rude to me. I wouldn't quite call it evil, but it's something I'd mildly discourage. But honestly, I don't really like the idea of buying stuff with the sole intention of selling it later. That is always a zero sum game, and there is always a loser. Properly functioning economies are supposed to increase net wealth.
u/DaystarEld [+2] Pokémon Professor (4 days later)
It just feels rude to me. I wouldn't quite call it evil, but it's something I'd mildly discourage. But honestly, I don't really like the idea of buying stuff with the sole intention of selling it later. That is always a zero sum game, and there is always a loser. Properly functioning economies are supposed to increase net wealth.
This sums it up best, I think :)
u/PlanarFreak [+2] (8 years later)
Hi! Sorry to necro, it's a few years later (wait, a decade?!), and I embarked on a re-read of this fiction. I just reached this part where Laura reprimands Red for trying to speculate on Daisy's discovery and decided to dig up the reddit thread since I found it preachy (fair enough, Red is her son) and disagree in general as a matter of practicality.
Getting on the thread, I found it interesting how prevalent the idealist position was when the chapter was first released, perhaps a sign of our demographic, haha! While I can't imagine myself buying a clefairy to flip a profit, my reservation isn't the imbalance of information or lack of added value (wouldn't all investment fall in this umbrella?) but rather betrayal of Daisy's trust and betrayal of a private seller's expectations of a good owner. However that wouldn't stop me from asking Daisy if I could buy from a commercial seller or invest in a domestic Clefairy daycare or purchase shares of a wild Clefairy catch operation! I guess I don't know how the in-universe economy is set-up, but there are options. That there exists a market at all implies there's some demand driving new aquisition, so suppliers have already justified the cost of operation and the windfall coming to them is likewise "pure luck" (if clefairy are extremely rare, then catching one is also "pure luck"?). I also can't consider this insider trading - where a publicly-traded company would have a conflict of interest against its shareholders and congress a conflict against its electorate, Red has no obligations to other segments of the market (and it's also not a staple good, clefairy definitely seem like a luxury expense). Finally, it's not a riskless investment either - Daisy could get injured or other complications and fail to perform, meaning that the investment is delayed or never comes to fruition (more reason to ask her first). Overall this seems the appropriate time for a small, no-pressure investment, for fun and profit!
Anyhow not expecting a reply, just wanted to leave my 2 cents in retrospect.
u/DaystarEld [+3] Pokémon Professor (8 years later)
Appreciate the retrospective! And yeah all that makes sense to me; as I said I don't fall strongly on one side or the other here, and your points all make sense to me. Regardless, there's still a part of me that finds none of them fully satisfactory; at the end of the day, the process of buying/selling something to someone for a price they wouldn't be happy with if they knew everything you knew still rubs me the wrong way.
I've since actually found a philosophy that sums it up well, though it's a bit of a fictional one ;P Do you read Planecrash, by chance, or know who Abadar is from Pathfinder?
u/PlanarFreak [+2] (8 years later)
I can't say I haven't felt the same way before - buying, selling, and bartering is an unfortunately ambiguous process, but I just have to remind myself what to do better next time haha.
I always welcome recommendations - unfamiliar with Planecrash, but I've played a few games of Pathfinder and could tell you Abadar is lawful-neutral (at least until the ORC license takes off ;P). What aspect of Abadar are you referring to?
u/DaystarEld [+2] Pokémon Professor (8 years later)
Here's the fic!
https://www.glowfic.com/board_sections/703
The way I see the authors (one of which is Eliezer, who wrote HPMOR) frame Abadar in this story, the difference between Abadar as a Lawful Neutral god of mercantilism and Asmodeus as a Lawful Evil one is that the latter will conceal information in order to get a better deal, while the former will not; Abadar's ideal form of trade is one in which everyone trades not just in good faith but with equal knowledge.
u/None [+3] (an hour later)
This has been an excellent read so far. Thank you.
u/DaystarEld [+1] Pokémon Professor (an hour later)
Thank you, glad you're enjoying it!
u/Putnam3145 [+1] (35 minutes later)
He then goes on to summarize the events of the .
I don't think that's right.
u/DaystarEld [+1] Pokémon Professor (an hour later)
Woops :) Fixed!
u/philip1201 [+1] (7 hours later)
just got an infrared image of the them, and knows nothing dangerous has arrived.
the group/them
u/DaystarEld [+1] Pokémon Professor (8 hours later)
Fixed, thanks!
u/CNSoup [+1] (2 days later)
I liked the shout out to Hello Internet near the end! Red seems like the kind of guy who would appreciate Grey's views. I really like this series so far, it's re-sparked my interest in Pokemon!
Also, when Red is thinking about testing Spinarak on Blue, Prof. Oak says:
"You're going to ask your it to blast my grandson, aren't you?"
I feel like you missed a word there.
u/DaystarEld [+2] Pokémon Professor (3 days later)
You're the second person to catch the HI reference ;) I've often thought that Grey would appreciate rationalist fiction. And thank you, I'm glad you're enjoying it!
Woops, yes I did miss a word there :) Or rather failed to substitute a word when I edited. Fixed!
u/RMcD94 [+1] (6 days later)
I have to imagine there is quite a large intersection on a Venn diagram in which we share, I see those who post here all over the place on Reddit.
Be interesting to say have a survey of where Reddit users subscribe both in subreddits and in reddits and see what the most common shared is.
Of course lots of people don't bother subscribing to subreddits and just type the URL, but interesting none-the-less.
u/PrinceofMagnets [+1] (3 days later)
I'm just going to say that maybe you should be a little bit more subtle with your references, "Crobatman" was borderline, but I found the reference to Lung and "Supermon" to distract from your story.
I'm also unsure about your pacing; but I'll put my faith in you for a few more chapters at least.
Don't let this comment fool you though, on the whole I'm really enjoying the story ;)
u/DaystarEld [+1] Pokémon Professor (3 days later)
Thanks for the feedback! I like having fun with references, and know not everyone will appreciate them. To be honest I'm just really bad at coming up with names for characters, and don't mind using homages for double value: "Lung" in particular was a last minute edit, as I wasn't satisfied with all the other names I came up with, and thought "Wait... a guy that can turn into a dragon...Yeah, that works, he can be Chinese."
Glad you're enjoying it overall though :)
u/RMcD94 [+1] (6 days later)
and write a dissertation overturning a previous established theory about pokemon.
What an unusually terrible requirement. Professors will be most common around periods of sharp advance when due to no genius of their own it'll be far more obvious what other theories of pokemon are wrong. As well, Professor's doing well means there will be less Professors which hardly seems fair either, just because someone is a super genius means you can't have any other Professors?
u/DaystarEld [+1] Pokémon Professor (6 days later)
The science of pokemon study is in its infancy, and there's always more to learn :) The requirements might change generations from now, but the first Professors made their mark by revolutionizing people's understanding of pokemon in such way. It's an exclusive title/position reserved for those capable of doing it again.
u/The_Mad_Duke [+1] House Tremontaine (7 days later)
Great chapter. Loved the glimpses we saw of Giovanni. Liked the little moment when Red changed his mind about calling Professor Oak even though his ego doesn't like it and really enjoyed their conversation.
Also really enjoyed the scene with the conversation around the campfire. I like the glimpse we get into the lives of these traveling youngsters and how it portrayed Red's behavior as a little socially awkward, but still very relatable.
Will reread chapter 4-5 to see what you've added sometime soon. Really love reading this!
u/DaystarEld [+1] Pokémon Professor (7 days later)
Thanks a lot, glad you're enjoying it!