scrape_r_rational/data/cache2/2nhffy.md

How's Pact?

• Author: u/None *

• URL: https://www.reddit.com/r/rational/comments/2nhffy/hows_pact/

• Score: 18

• Created: 2014-11-26T15:23:03

Post:

Everyone's familiar with the lauded-and-applauded web-serial Worm, but since its end, the author /u/wildbow has begun writing Pact. Since it's written by the same author, I'd kinda expect it to be similarly epic and rational, but it's already in its 13th arc and I've heard exactly 0 mention of it in this sub.

Have any of you /r/rational subscribers been following Pact? How does it measure up, on the rational/ist scale?

Comments:

u/alexanderwales [+12] Time flies like an arrow (25 minutes later)

I read the first four arcs before putting it down. It's got some neat stuff in it, but ... the big problem I had with Worm was that it was sort of unrelenting in how grim it was. In my opinion, and based only on those first four arcs, Pact is worse.

So I was 36 chapters in, which is over 200K words, and I just closed the tab and started thinking about all the things I could have been doing that weren't reading Pact.

There's a chance that I'll read through it when it's fully complete, mostly because then it's not a twice-weekly dose of depression and there's hopefully some conclusion that makes everything worth it.

u/DaystarEld [+19] Pokémon Professor (36 minutes later)

Huh. Now that you said this, I'm trying to think back to how grim Worm was and thinking of why I didn't notice it at the time. There were definitely long stretches of high tension and stark danger, and the world itself was very unfiltered, but somehow I never really thought of it as "grim." Maybe because Herbert spent such (relatively) little time dwelling or angsting, and so much time thinking of problems and acting, that I got a constant sense of hope.

Even when the dominos started falling down and things got cranked up to 11, the kind of person Herbert is was so core to her character and the story, that a voice in the back of my head was sure that no matter how dark things got, she would keep trying, keep thinking, and never give up.

Characters like Tattletale and Regent were great comedic relief even at the darkest of times ("Hey! ?"), but you're right, the story really is extremely grim. Had Worm been focused on a protagonist that was any less awesome, I probably would have noticed it more while reading.

Haven't gotten around to reading Pact yet, but interested to see how it contrasts now.

u/AmeteurOpinions [+12] Finally, everyone was working together. (44 minutes later)

Nail. On. The. Head.

Wow, reflecting on this pond, Taylor's constant drive to do stuff is the greatest part of Worm, and one of the biggest contrasts with Pact, where Blake and Rose are mostly scraping by in the face of pre-existing plots.

Edit: typo

u/sicutumbo [+8] (3 hours later)

Yeah, if Taylor had been less focused on "I can solve this and fuck anyone who thinks otherwise" then the story could have been really depressing. Tragedy after tragedy happens, the problems just keep ramping up, very few people get a substantial power boost to deal with the rising threats, and there just ultimately seems to be little hope for a better life other than simply surviving. But Taylor keeps going, doesnt treat any problem as unsolvable, and end of the story spoilers So many great themes to draw from Worm as a whole.

u/DaystarEld [+3] Pokémon Professor (4 hours later)

Yep :)

Btw, put some spoiler bars in there, like this:

[](# s "text here")

Without the space between the # and s.

u/sicutumbo [+0] (4 hours later)

Was under the impression that this sub should be avoided until you had finished the story, but ill edit the post just in case.

u/None [+1] (9 hours later)

Worm isn't exactly a main-stay of rational(ist) fiction (like HPMOR and The Metropolitan Man), even if it is mentioned often. Maybe if this was /r/parahumans, but I didn't even discover Worm until after I had already started frequenting this subreddit.

u/sicutumbo [+2] (9 hours later)

Oh, actually didnt realize this wasnt r/parahumans. My mistake

u/None [+3] (9 hours later)

Oh, okay. That's no problem, then. I make that mistake between this sub and /r/hpmor all the time.

u/None [+1] (5 hours later)

Readable spoiler tag: end of the story spoilers

I really don't know why the CS does that sometimes.

u/alexanderwales [+2] Time flies like an arrow (5 hours later)

Spoiler tags are implemented in a rather hackish way by corrupting a link (specifically, taking what would be the alt text and putting it after the link text, with no actual link destination). In this case, it's the difference between:

[](/s "")

And:

[](#s "")

The spoiler tag CSS is also inconsistent across subreddits, which means that in some cases the other method of doing the spoiler is correct. Reddit at one point said they they were going to make a sitewide version of spoiler tags built into the Markdown, but I think they scrapped it once they realized how many different ways that subs used spoiler tags, and how much it would break existing discussion.

u/None [+4] (an hour later)

I'm reading Worm right now (At Sting 26.6) and I definitely noticed the grimness. It starts pretty bad (Worm, but nothing out of the ordinary. It does keep going down. The Worm are absolutely horrible (but well-written) and going down from that makes everything worse. Skitter can't ever catch a break. When there's a victory, the first thing I think is "How will it get worse now?"

u/literal-hitler [+4] (8 hours later)

I always thought he did a great job using events to show it rather than internal monologue.Canary spoiler to show how broken the system is and how afraid people are. End book spoiler to show everything is corruptible. Even just the constant stream of names from the armbands is not only treated as acceptable but expected.

u/DaystarEld [+1] Pokémon Professor (an hour later)

Out of curiosity, have you read The Dresden Files?

u/None [+1] (2 hours later)

I have not, but the first book is on my wishlist.

u/DaystarEld [+2] Pokémon Professor (3 hours later)

Aha. If it's not too big a burden, do Future You a favor and get the first three as an omnibus: the first two books are enjoyable, but in the context of the series as a whole they're more of a setup and introduction to the world and some characters, and it's not till book 3 that things really take off :)

u/None [+2] (4 hours later)

I will. Future Me deserves a little extra, since I just saddled him up with doing the dishes tomorrow.

u/DaystarEld [+1] Pokémon Professor (4 hours later)

Oof. I hope the food is good enough to make up for it :)

u/None [+1] (15 hours later)

It wasn't, exactly and it's accumulated dishes from a couple of days. In about 10 hours, Future Me is going to hate Past Me.

u/chaosmosis [+1] and with strange aeons, even death may die (2 days later)

Not as much as Future Future Future You will, if I see where this is going!

u/Iconochasm [+4] (3 hours later)

You ended an arc or two before the main comic relief/heart warming character is introduced, but yeah, you're not wrong. I had finally reached the point in reading Wildbow where I sort of stepped back and forced myself to ignore the current grimness, and that ended up being right before back to back grim-whammy arcs. Still enjoying it though, and the last arc has (very ironically) been much more optimistic and successful, with protagonists being proactive and accomplishing goals and not feeling perpetually on the brink of disaster. The karma system is a fascinating plot device in that regard.

u/AmeteurOpinions [+11] Finally, everyone was working together. (18 minutes later)

There's some good and some bad.

I really enjoy some parts of Pact, like the use and implications of the chronomancy and karma, and Blake's "Damn the status quo" attitude, but other problems (heh) are super irritating.

The ban on lying is brilliant, since it automatically makes all the little nuances of dialogue significant, and information control even more so. Unfortunately, the protagonists aren't equipped to obtain critical information themselves, and spend a lot of the story lacking game-changing details.

HOWEVER, I think this is actually a case of the serial nature of the story working against it, because of the relatively long spans of time between chapters, as compared to reading one immediately after the other. As someone who caught up on Worm in a week (it was two-thirds complete at the time) I think reading Pact when it is finished would improve the experience.

Edit: For those who have already current, please remember to avoid spoilers as much as possible, especially things like the end of the Void arc.

Also, Thorburn Boogeyman X Green Eyes FTW.

Edit 2: In fact, I think the best way to think about it is that Pact is doing for the Paranormal genre what Worm did for superheroes: a blend of straight storytelling and deconstruction in a world which makes sense despite those elements.

u/Lethalmud [+4] (4 hours later)

The time between chapters is still insanely fast. Pact's max of 4 days is heaven compared with HPMOR's 6 months or so.

u/Solonarv [+6] Chaos Legion (4 hours later)

Yeah Wildbow writes crazy fast. I think at one point they said they wrote 10+ hours in a day, several times a week.

u/alexanderwales [+5] Time flies like an arrow (5 hours later)

In case you're interested, read this comment chain where /u/wildbow answers some of the details about his process.

u/FeepingCreature [+2] GCV Literally The Entire Culture (a day later)

Also, Thorburn Boogeyman X Green Eyes FTW.

Is there a ship name for that pairing? Bogeymaid?

u/okaycat [+9] (2 hours later)

I really like the world building of Pact very much. The whole magical/metaphysical system is very interesting. It actually feels mystical/magical unlike lots of other magic systems these days.

However the problems I'm having with Worm I'm having with Pact. There us a huge buildup of tension but there is no release, no catharthis. Its like a rollercoaster that just keeps going up. Wildbow doesn't really give us time to breath, its just one contrived dilemma after the other. After a while there's really no tension and all the drama just feels ridiculous.

u/STL [+1] (4 hours later)

I agree about Pact, but it sounds like you haven't gotten near the end of Worm. The high point Worm

u/okaycat [+4] (4 hours later)

I've finished Worm a year ago or so. I remember staying up late into the night, waiting for Wildbow to finally update with the last interlude haha. It was very satisfying.

Don't get me wrong, I very much enjoy his writing. I just don't like how he constantly ramps up the tension without letting the reader breathe for a little bit. I feel.like thr warlord arc should have been a lot longer. Just having more time between each climax would have been helpful.

Otherwise it jist feels rushed, at least to me. Although I think that's more the fault of the web serial medium rather then Wildbows writing skills.

u/4t0m [+4] Chaos Legion (6 hours later)

I really really love Worm, but I totally agree with you.

u/triangleman83 [+2] (5 hours later)

I just skimmed that chapter but didn't see anything in all caps...sure it's that one?

u/STL [+1] (5 hours later)

Search for "July 26th, 2011" without quotes, it's the line below.

u/triangleman83 [+2] (5 hours later)

Ahh yes, that was a good moment. I read the entire story in probably a couple months right after it finished, now I'm realizing that I've forgotten a lot. I want to wait for a reread ideally when it's been edited and even perhaps published, but I'm afraid I won't be able to go that long. The only saving grace is that I have a lot of other stuff to read right now. I would probably participate in an organized reread/discussion group if that was organized...

u/TimeLoopedPowerGamer [+10] Utopian Smut Peddler (19 hours later)

Ehhh...

The solid: it is well written. It has some interesting ideas in the modern fantasy genre which are well executed. There is a lot of it. It is free but essentially crowd funded. It has intelligent characters in mostly logically consistent situations.

The issues: the main character starts out in an interesting situation, then leaves it for way, way too long. This makes it feel very bait-and-switchy. And then it happens again. And then again. Things are rarely clear ahead of time, and the MC literally gets dragged from plot point to plot point. Often. This ruins agency and thus much of a chance for rationalist approaches to problems. I think the only really rationalist characters mostly romp around off screen or in the background, both historically and narratively. Lots of things are alien in intelligence and motivation, but at least they're consistent in that.

Overall, it is basically a character-torture-porn soap opera that occasionally changes locations.

I won't say if anyone specifically has amnesia, but people do. Like, two or three times just as far as I got. And there is a twin. Who might or might not be evil. And there is a will, and an inheritance, and a person who might be corrupt or just protective of his family and the community (or both). A land developer is causing trouble just outside of town, hiring some rough characters. There is a powerful authority figure who has a city under their thumb. Someone shady lives in the woods. There are near-death experiences and curses and troubled spirits. And there is a (brief) will-they-won't-they love story, but they can't be together because of overly dramatic reasons that happen really suddenly to yank a character away, almost like they were fired from the cast.

That happens a lot, by the way. Maybe they don't have good agents.

When you step back and list the things that happen, it might be from an especially ambitious Telemundo soap series crossed with a modern fantasy epic novel series. Which, again, isn't a bad thing, but isn't what a lot of people might expect.

I feel the story tries too hard to be emotional, realistic, and impactful, and ends up bludgeoning the reader with things that should be subtle and subversive.

Nit-picky authorial craft stuff: the threat escalation is poorly done, in my opinion. By the end of the first few arcs, the MC can't seem to make a sandwich or literally walk down the road without someone trying to kill him. In fact, few people can. No one really seems able to accomplish anything, including the sorta-villains, and the results of conflicts seem at the whim of agents out of everyone's control.

This is in fact a strong theme, but it doesn't necessarily make for a good story. If all of Lord of the Rings was Frodo dragging himself around Mordor without Sam, it wouldn't have been a very good story. But that is what Pact feels like a lot of the time (as far as I got). Just grimness and nothing ever really getting done.

And the plot twists. Imagine if Frodo cuts off his finger, only to find out that all of his toes also have rings that need to be removed. And there are individual dark lords of death and destruction guarding each. That's how Pact feels much of the time, even after a climactic moment is resolved.

At some point, it would be nice to see a finished sandwich, and someone the reader cares about sitting down and enjoying eating it while talking about their plans for what to do next -- all without ninjas crashing through the window halfway through. There is literally a scene where the MC fails to make a party platter, though not for that reason, and another where he fails to get and enjoy a cup of coffee. No comment on the ninjas there.

Overall, a good enough read, but not worth my time right now for the same reason I haven't read Worm or Homestuck all the way through: the themes seem to be explored a la carte, not presented strongly to the reader and then quickly and efficiently exercised in the narrative. This is typical of serial fiction, but is not something I currently enjoy.

Pro-tip: the "extra" stuff that has grimoire excerpts or historical narratives do a Sanderson's-Stormlight-thing where they make for much stronger reading than the main plotline. Perhaps because they have a compact, serial short-story format and contain interesting characters accomplishing interesting things during interesting times. Read those. I wish the story was entirely about the obviously strongest female character in the series (featured there). She seems like a much, much more interesting character, and she occasionally got shit done.

Don't spoil if that turns out to happen to be the main plot 1,700,000 words in, turning the novel from modern fantasy to roaring '20s occultist thriller. It'll only make me sad and cause me to fail NaNoWriMo this year for the first time ever.

But damn, that would be a good story.

u/FeepingCreature [+2] GCV Literally The Entire Culture (20 hours later)

And the plot twists. Imagine if Frodo cuts off his finger, only to find out that all of his toes also have rings that need to be removed. And there are individual dark lords of death and destruction guarding each. That's how Pact feels much of the time, even after a climactic moment is resolved.

I love this, because it's so true.

u/noggin-scratcher [+9] I am a happy tree (an hour later)

Let's see...

Nothing happens solely because 'the plot requires it'. If characters do (or don't do) something, there must be a plausible reason.

We haven't seen inside the heads or histories of all the important players to be sure of this, but I'd say it lives up to it - can't recall anyone seeming to be motivated by The Plot rather than their own reasons.

Factions are defined and driven into conflict by their beliefs and values, not just by being "good" or "evil".

This a story that contains literal demons, but those are mostly treated as something like a force of nature rather than actual characters (in the same way as fire isn't a "faction" - it's just dangerous and destructive). The major character groups all seem to have their own internal logic.

That said, they mostly come off as assholes, arranged against our protagonist... who is also rapidly descending into suicidal recklessness and may not necessarily be making things better despite his best efforts. So it's all a bit grey-on-grey rather than being able to sympathise with and sensibly contemplate support for every side.

The characters solve problems through the intelligent application of their knowledge and resources.

I'd say it scores points for this too... although there's a whole lot of still-hidden information and unknown resources, which supplies the antagonists with a nigh-infinite supply of curveballs to through at the protagonist. He mostly gets along by creativity and sheer bloody-mindedness.

The rules of the fictional world are sane and consistent.

... is "Whatever happens, the universe is trying to fuck you up" considered consistent? It's pretty consistent on that point. Not so sure about sane - couldn't say that I can enumerate the possible "things that could happen" with all the magic that's loose, but you get a sense for how things work and there's not too much magic macguffinry involved - powerful effects being expensive and so on.

So as an example of Rational Fiction, it's not really ticking all the boxes, but as an example of Fiction it's pretty good... I've been enjoying it.

u/rp20 [+1] (5 hours later)

We haven't seen inside the heads or histories of all the important players to be sure of this, but I'd say it lives up to it - can't recall anyone seeming to be motivated by The Plot rather than their own reasons.

I don't think that is necessarily a meaningful conceptualization. The point is to give the illusion of independent thought within characters. The writer controls the story. In other words, just good writing.

u/noggin-scratcher [+1] I am a happy tree (5 hours later)

I don't mean to imply that you need a PoV moment to confirm that events are caused by character motivation rather than plot device.

But it is one way to demonstrate, when they do something that seems at first glance like it doesn't make sense, that actually there were reasons that we just weren't shown at the time.

u/rp20 [+1] (5 hours later)

I would say that if any actions of the character is not contradicted by past actions or future actions, I am very forgiving.

u/Zephyr1011 [+4] Potentially Unfriendly Aspiring Divinity (53 minutes later)

I quite like it, and it's definitely enjoyable to read. But I definitely preferred Worm to it. Partially I just prefer the genre of Worm, and seeing the unique powers and fun uses put to them.

I don't really feel that I understand the rules of the universe either, so I'm unsure how "sane and consistent" I'd call them. There are some things, like with Maggie and Padraic, where I had no clue that that was even possible.

Still, it does have it good points. I am just worse at talking about the good points of fiction. There are some interesting characters, and some awesome/hilarious moments. I'd recommend reading it, although it's in its final few arcs so it may be best to wait a bit and read the whole thing

u/None [+5] (27 minutes later)

[deleted]

u/AmeteurOpinions [+3] Finally, everyone was working together. (36 minutes later)

I think it's safe to objectively say Pact is worse, but in a traditional sequelitis way.

Edit: So I read through the the trope description and that seems a bit harsh.

u/None [+3] (46 minutes later)

It's just Wildbow's style, I'm not saying he's a bad writer.

u/eltegid [+2] (18 hours later)

I, for one, like it /better/ than Worm

On the rational scale, it's good but not outstanding. The character mostly plans creatively but sometimes you couldn't have imagined what he was going to do. Still, the plans are usually well thougt out.

On the other hand, there is a rule about not lying ('wizards' character can't lie or they lose a lot of power) that the author sometimes seems to forget about, and its a big minus for me. In general, the story suffers a bit because the rules are a bit more variable and convoluted than Worm's and the author is less comfortable with them.

u/chaosmosis [+2] and with strange aeons, even death may die (2 days later)

Meh. Worm's strength was that its fights were very clearly defined in advance: you knew who was there and what their powers were, but the way in which they used their powers would be intelligent and surprising despite that. Pact's fights function in essentially the opposite manner, because power in that world functions through vague symbolism and emotional strength of will (edit: also, nobody ever knows what anyone else's standard capabilities are unless they've already fought before, information is much more scarce). Worm had supernatural powers, but they operated in a lawfully consistent manner (up until the surgery at the end - kind of a cop out), which made it a much more rational story.

There are one or two instances where intelligent mundane solutions are used for fighting difficult supernatural beings, but they are far scarcer than in Worm. When reading Worm, I liked when I got the feeling "damn, I should have thought of that", and I've had that happen only once to me so far while reading Pact. Instead, most of the time Blake does something totally random that no one had any reason to think would work, but the magic system is flexible and bends to help him out. (For a supposedly hostile universe, it sends him far too much luck.)

I read up until 11 or so before I got bored, might pick it back up sometime later or might not. Rumor has it it's ending soon, thankfully, so there's not much more I'd need to push through if I wanted the satisfaction of completing it.

u/bloodrizer [+2] (4 days later)

I loathe the fact that the Pact is completely incomprehensible, the story is 90% plot device driven and there are no consistent rules of how pact universe is working. (I've dropped it on the ghost eater hunt arc, not sure if it will be better from this point)

u/dac69 [+2] (9 hours later)

I enjoy Pact quite a bit, and I heartily recommend it to other readers.

From a rational side of things:

It explains magic in a fairly rational way, i.e. magical effects are created by a multitude of spirits who collectively have some idea of fairness, but also have a desire to be entertained. The effect is that magic is a little bit science, and a lot of art and acting.

All the deals that are offered are true tradeoffs. Nothing is ever given for free, or even for cheap, so all deals must be dissected to figure out if they're worth it. Add to this the fact that no practitioner can lie, and you have a truly delightful lawyer-esque dynamic.

Characters tend to be level one intelligent, with exceptions being called out in a few specific circumstances. There is one memorable scene where Blake bets on a character having a lower intellect, for good reason, and ending up terribly wrong.

From a storytelling perspective:

Others have commented about how it's always bad for Blake, with no let up. Well, that's mostly true, but it's explicitly explained why that is, which mitigates the effect a bit. It also seems like that's changing in the current arc, as Blake is getting the hang of living with the magical community. I'm finding it actually very satisfying to see the progression.

Again, Blake's actions are always at least level one intelligent, but sometimes don't seem smart in a broader sense. I noticed this initially, but threw it under my usual suspension of disbelief because I was enjoying the story, but recently, Blake's back-story has been filled in a bit more, and suddenly every choice he made is explicable from a psychological perspective.

Finally, the setting and layout of the story allow for getting to know the antagonists well. This is something I feel it does better than in "Worm", where the bad guys are mostly undeniably evil, with a few morally grey factions thrown in. In "Pact", everyone except the demons and a few "Others" are morally grey, and conflict is created from ideology and circumstance.

Oh yeah, and it's updated 2-3 times a week. Holy crap is that impressive.

u/None [+1] (8 hours later)

I dropped it a while ago. I just don't care as much. It doesn't grab me like Worm did.

u/SaintPeter74 [+1] (12 hours later)

I am absolutely a huge fan of Pact. It's kinda like my favorite TV show where I get to tune in every couple days for another "Episode". It's tough for me to objectively compare it to Worm, since I'm definitely reading it at a slower pace and it is a very different work. The setting and characters are so far off from Worm that it's hard to make a good comparison. Shakespere vs. Ursula K. Le Guin - which is "better"?

Having said all that, while this work is somewhat deconstructionist and definitely has strong rationalist influences, it is definitely not in the same league as Worm in that regard. I'm not sure that the genre really lends itself to such a strict rationalist reworking. It's definitely more little "r" rational than 99% of current urban fantasy.

For me, the real selling point is Wildbow's writing and plotting. He sets things up so far in advance and so subtly that it's sometimes breathtaking. He almost plays "tricks" that an observant reader might catch or which, after revealed, give previous chapters (or the entire STORY) a completely different flavor.

It definitely ramps up a bit slower than Worm (from what I remember), but is worth it in the long run.

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