43 KiB
Pokemon: The Origin of Species, Chapter 14
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Author: u/DaystarEld Pokémon Professor*
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URL: https://www.fanfiction.net/s/9794740/14/Pokemon-The-Origin-of-Species
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Score: 23
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Created: 2014-11-29T01:39:21
Post:
Comments:
u/DaystarEld [+8] Pokémon Professor (4 minutes later)
Hey all, welcome back! Relatively later chapter than the last few as a result of the holidays and the new Pokemon game eating up my free time, but I hope you like it. Not sure if I hit the mark or not, so all feedback welcome, as usual!
u/liamash3 [+3] Mizu (5 hours later)
Good chapter. I quite liked the cliffhanger ending and the new pokemon Red now has. Putting up a trap for it is quite a good plan, really. I noted it wasn't a native to FRLG Kanto 'mon, though - are you going to have mons of any region living somewhere depending on whether the environment could support them, or just have this instance happen due to Kanto and Johto being next to one another?
u/DaystarEld [+4] Pokémon Professor (6 hours later)
Thanks, glad you liked it :) I'm using the most diverse/modern incarnation of Kanto to tell the story in, which is HeartGold/SoulSilver's, where there's some overlap between Kanto/Johto pokemon and a rare few from Hoenn and Sinnoh show up, probably due to cross-region travel.
So on Bulbapedia's page on Viridian Forest, the chart titled Generation IV has the list I'm basing things off of.
u/SkeevePlowse [+7] (2 hours later)
Curse you and your cliffhanger endings! CURRRRRRSE YOUUUU!
Having said that, I look forwards to seeing what comes next. And I, for one, am quite interested in all the world details that are sprinkled in.
u/Anakiri [+5] (a day later)
Red's looking very eleven here. Entitled, self-centered, a bit unempathetic, that's a kid alright. Reminds me of why I hate children, which is arguably a good thing. He should be careful about thinking things like "I'd never do something like that." He's tempting the universe to dump him into a situation that forces the issue. It's easy for the utilitarian calculation to be one-sided...
I like that the Dark thing is throwing Red for a loop. The universe is not giving up its secrets as easily as I initially feared, and Red will likely see all sorts of edge cases that just don't make sense. Have fun with that, professor. Now, how large a pot do you need to cook a three foot lobster built like a tree stump?
With no mention of thunder, it seems the lightning is at least four kilometers away. Far enough away that our heroes are not in immediate danger, but close enough that they could be dealing with some minor threat one minute, and be at the heart of it all the next. Zapdos garners much respect, and I'm excited to see what it actually does.
u/DaystarEld [+3] Pokémon Professor (a day later)
Now, how large a pot do you need to cook a three foot lobster built like a tree stump?
"Come on Crawdaunt, let's go to the bath and get you nice and clean!"
Probably a bit unwieldy, but their size is probably why chopping them up is easier.
u/Bowbreaker [+1] Solitary Locust (2 days later)
It's easy for the utilitarian calculation to be one-sided...
As I understood it the thing he'll never do is non-consensual experimentation on humans. There are reasons of precedence why that should almost never be okay. The only exceptions I can think of is large scale epidemics with risks of extinction or at least deaths in the millions.
u/Bowbreaker [+3] Solitary Locust (2 days later)
I finished writing up my hypothesis regarding Normal type Pokemon and thought I'd share it. It is strongly dependent on some assumptions made regarding Ki and the intricacies of mental traits in general.
What is "Normal"? - Strengths and Weaknesses
The so called Normal-type Pokemon, barring a few exceptions, seem to have baseline animal-like bodies with little inherent ability to convert energy into various specialized forms and channel it. In case they do have such abilities of channeling, it is generally not a direct part of their biology or body structure when not in use, thus not giving the related resistances and weaknesses.
However, there are a few traits inherent to this "Normal" body structure. Namely, a weakness to "Fighting" type attacks and a complete immunity to "Ghost" type mental/empathic assaults.
Depending on which theoretical explanation of the so called Fighting type one ascribes to, its strength towards Normal types can be explained in two ways:
If it is just a question of instinct and skill in hand to hand combat then one could stipulate that the Normal's bio-typical body shows the expected weak points susceptible to such well placed strikes and maneuvers to a far greater extent than Pokemon with more "exotic" body structures.
If one is to lend credibility to the Ki-theory it could be an inherent weakness to Ki-charged attacks, due to as of yet unexplored reasons. Something like an extensive but uncontrolled Ki-network that is missing or differently focused in body structures that evolved to control and convert all kinds of various energy forms maybe.
Exploring the immunity to Ghost attacks is more tricky, due to the little knowledge we currently have regarding them and the differences between non-physical, also known as "mental", traits in general. Both traditional notions and expert testimonies consider Ghost attacks to target emotions as opposed to mental function. While the difference is not scientifically explainable as of yet I hypothesize that they both access the brain through different means and thus cause different effects on the targets perception.
Let us hypothesize that the weakness of Normal Pokemon is purely Ki related and subsequently try to combine the two traits into one explanation. If Ki is a different form of non-physical attack delivered by physical touch (akin to Shadow Claw) then the Normal type weakness to it and immunity to Ghost attacks can be considered a mental trait. This would lead us to believe that maybe "Normal" is another purely "mental" type similar to Psychic and Dark and that, if not for the related mental traits, Normal type Pokemon could just as well be considered Untyped.
Edit: Grammar and minor stuff.
Footnote: The above purely concerns itself with Normal type Pokemon and with Fighting and Ghost type attacks. Damaging Normal attacks can be considered almost exclusively as being in the physical realm with "special" attacks of the type being either sound related or essentially untyped energy attacks. Similar but conversely the Ghost type defensively has a large physical component even though Ghost attacks are non-physical. But Ghost Pokemon and their highly paradoxical relation to physical attacks are a subject for a different time.
u/DaystarEld [+2] Pokémon Professor (2 days later)
I was going through this line by line and basically saying "bingo" and "spot on," so I decided to just scrap that and respond to the overall thing.
This is a pretty solid explanation of what I've worked out. In addition, there's some data to indicate that fighting pokemon can "see" life energy or "ki," which explains why they are especially effective against Rock and Steel pokemon that would presumably have defense to their strikes: they can detect the pokemon's weak points, and the force of their strikes at just the right place cause internal damage from the resonance, compounded more than it is with most other body types because of how hard the skin their organs are bouncing around in is.
The relationship between Ki and ghosts is also pretty important, as Ghosts are utterly immune to it. It's hypothesized to be a level beyond the simple physical/mental divide, and of course many consider it "spiritual," but there does seem to be a straightforward physical connection at times.
u/Bowbreaker [+1] Solitary Locust (2 days later)
Oh. I thought that they just could detect structural weak points in hard and rigid materials, thus giving them a physical advantage versus Rock, Steel and Ice. Although now that I think of it Ice Pokemon are mostly soft and rarely made of ice.
u/DaystarEld [+1] Pokémon Professor (2 days later)
Those ice pokemon that are soft tend to not have high defense ratings anyway, so that works out :)
u/Bowbreaker [+1] Solitary Locust (a day later)
Couldn't he just test his Spinarack on his Rattata? Or is the risk of blasting it with a full Psychic attack too unconscionable? But in that case blasting his best friend with half of that should be just as bad, no?
u/DaystarEld [+5] Pokémon Professor (a day later)
Right, he won't test it on his Rattata for the same reason he won't test it on, say, Leaf: if it IS a psychic attack, then it's an enormously strong one, relative to its species: strong enough to give him a bit of mental scarring. So he doesn't want to do it to Leaf or his rattata and risk harming them.
If it's a Ghost one though, then it MIGHT be enormously strong too, but Blue's Darkness will greatly weaken it. Alternatively, it's NOT enormously strong, and the only reason Red had such a strong reaction was that he is latently psychic.
Does that make sense?
u/Timewinders [+2] (a day later)
Why not find a dark pokemon to test it on? Is he just being impatient?
u/DaystarEld [+4] Pokémon Professor (a day later)
Yes. The second he finds a dark or normal pokemon that he can test it on, that would be the easiest way to do it :)
u/Bowbreaker [+2] Solitary Locust (2 days later)
Does he actually even know how to command his Spinarack to do its mental attack?
u/DaystarEld [+3] Pokémon Professor (2 days later)
He does not :D Which is why he said to Blue "after I train it a bit." It will take a bit of testing to figure out how to trigger what it did, especially if it can do both types of mental attacks.
u/E-o_o-3 [+1] (a day later)
if it IS a psychic attack, then it's an enormously strong one, relative to its species: strong enough to give him a bit of mental scarring. So he doesn't want to do it to Leaf or his rattata and risk harming them.
This seems like something Leaf could say and remain consistent, but not Red, especially if he's willing to test it on Blue. The Rattata's gonna go through worse than that, if it sees a few pokemon battles, and doesn't Red eat pokemon of similar moral standing? (if he's just sentimental about his Rattata, he can go grab a wild Rattata.)
Of course, Red's 11, but...
u/DaystarEld [+1] Pokémon Professor (a day later)
(if he's just sentimental about his Rattata, he can go grab a wild Rattata)
This he can do, when he finds another one. It's mostly a matter of impatience at this point: he could KNOW right now if he just does it to Blue, rather than waiting and wondering for another few days.
u/Bowbreaker [+1] Solitary Locust (2 days later)
Why greatly? I get that it won't be exactly 50% as in the games but won't it be roughly around there in your story too? Especially if resistances vary from species to species I assume that Blue is not comparable to the darkest of the dark Pokemon. So if Red is not Psychic and the attack actually is that strong then he was still risking to blast his friend with a medium sized mental/emotional attack, no? And because according to Agatha the attack seems relatively Ghost-like and Red was tested negative for Psychic traits that risk isn't even so negligible.
u/DaystarEld [+2] Pokémon Professor (2 days later)
The answer to this requires going a bit into the mechanics of how I envision "damage" working realistically compared to the games.
So since there's obviously no "health bar" to judge all attacks by, physical, mental, emotional, etc, the damage they do is based on their effects. The reason a mental attack is an attack is because it causes mental distress: it's kind of like a status condition more than an actual attack, most of the time, with the status conditions being things like "go catatonic with fear" or "become hyper-sensitive to stimulus."
So the attack "Confusion" in the game does damage and has a chance of causing the status condition "Confused," which might give you a chance of hurting yourself further. But in the "real world," the two things are one and the same: a "Confusion" attack causes you to hurt yourself due to temporary mental impairment. Other attacks that cause confusion are similar.
Same with Ghost attacks. Most don't inflict status conditions, but the "damage" they do are the result of the effects they have. A pokemon or person can be defeated by crippling emotional anguish just as much as excessive physical trauma, and any physical damage they sustain in the meantime is secondary to that.
So all that said, a "Dark human" will experience a Ghost attack as roughly half the "effect," and thus far less permanent. Since the effects are largely emotional manipulation, an attack that might normally make its victim filled with mindless terror would just make a Dark pokemon or human scared for awhile. The trauma associated would be negligible, since people feel normal levels of fear all the time without it being scarring.
Does that make sense?
u/Bowbreaker [+1] Solitary Locust (2 days later)
I guess I should post only here instead of simultaneously asking on FFnet. That way everyone interested can follow us and we don't have to check both all the time. Please keep my FFnet pseudonym private though.
Anyway, what you said makes sense on some level, but not completely. Because it seems that according to your hypothesis even high functioning Pokemon like many Psychic, Fighting, Dragon and other type Pokemon don't normally feel fear or sadness without being under direct empathic attacks of the Ghost type? But all the normal mammals an birds do? As long as they aren't strongly elemental or such? Also, what about "Physical" Ghost attacks. The way you described Shadow Claw it was my understanding that it is a visible ghostly extension or apparition that directly strikes at the mind/spirit/endoplasmic empathy network/whathaveyou and causes anguish and/or pain. Is that not how it works? And if it is, are "Normal" humans immune to these attacks? How do they experience them, if at all, if that is the case?
Regarding damaging mental attacks in general, the straight forward type at least, I thought they often cause a dimming of mental acuity or the senses in general, having a similar effect on fighting as a distracting wound and such would have. Confusion in particular then would a) slightly diminish your awareness of reality (by 50 points :p) and b) sometimes leave a lingering effect of confusion that causes you to hurt yourself for whatever reasons (mishaps, self-harm, other).
u/DaystarEld [+2] Pokémon Professor (2 days later)
For the first part, see the other answer about how ghosts use a being's power against them first. After that:
Also, what about "Physical" Ghost attacks. The way you described Shadow Claw it was my understanding that it is a visible ghostly extension or apparition that directly strikes at the mind/spirit/endoplasmic empathy network/whathaveyou and causes anguish and/or pain. Is that not how it works? And if it is, are "Normal" humans immune to these attacks? How do they experience them, if at all, if that is the case?
This is something that's going to require major spoilers to explain about the nature of the pokemon world. It's not an exaggeration to say that my entire concept for this story and how to rationally explain how pokemon work came from asking myself these exact questions about how ghost/psychic/dark types, more than any of the others, interact, and how that might make sense.
If you're okay with spoilers, I'd be happy to check through the logic with you. If you'd rather wait to have it explained, or want me to just confirm/deny whether what you say coincides with what I thought of, that works too :)
Regarding damaging mental attacks in general, the straight forward type at least, I thought they often cause a dimming of mental acuity or the senses in general, having a similar effect on fighting as a distracting wound and such would have. Confusion in particular then would a) slightly diminish your awareness of reality (by 50 points :p) and b) sometimes leave a lingering effect of confusion that causes you to hurt yourself for whatever reasons (mishaps, self-harm, other).
This is pretty accurate, yeah, though psychic attacks could do things that normal "distractions" of physical wounds wouldn't.
u/Bowbreaker [+1] Solitary Locust (2 days later)
No direct spoilers for now, but confirmation/denial would be cool. Or maybe even just confirmation/denial regarding how much sense my hypotheses make to an experienced trainer/scientist within your Pokeworld and what direct and easy rebuttals would be that don't need prior experiments on their part first.
I didn't even know that you had the whole type system already worked out in the background. Has anyone looked at it besides you? If not, you could always show me an incomplete picture containing the stuff you aren't a 100% sure on per PM or something.
But what I really look forward to is your explanation of the Bug type and weird things like the differences between a Bug attack like X-Scissor used by a non-bug and physical Normal/Flying attacks used by bugs. The fact that they interact with all mental types makes me think of Bug being another one. Or is this one of the examples of gross misinterpretation and oversimplification by oldschool trainers and the traditional Poke-academia?
Lastly, what do you think of the Normal hypothesis I posted? Is that something that would intrigue Red if he were to stumble over it?
u/DaystarEld [+2] Pokémon Professor (2 days later)
Responded to the Normal hypothesis :) I have a lot of the details for the interactions mapped out, but there is room for shifting as various things don't all fit together exactly right, and I'd be happy to run those things by you.
The physical bug attacks like X-Scissor being used by non-bugs is pretty much a game mechanic. Even if a TM could alter the molecular composition of a non-bug's claws to be buglike, there's nothing inherently offensive about bug-claws to plants and psychics and whatnot, and everything that resists Normal attacks for physical reasons resists Bug attacks too, which leads researchers to pin the distinction on the organisms themselves.
u/Bowbreaker [+1] Solitary Locust (2 days later)
Then many attacks, especially physical Normal attacks, essentially mirror the Type of the user instead of having their own? Bodyslam for example becomes at least partially a Rock attack when used by a Pokemon made of rock? Insects using Cut cause just as much distress to Psychics as using Bug Bite? Attackypes in general only stay the same as in the games if the attack itself has the relevant substance trait? Just making sure I understand the streamlined rules of your world.
u/DaystarEld [+2] Pokémon Professor (2 days later)
Sort of. Remember that there's nothing inherently "rock" about a rock-type attack. The reason rock attacks are strong against flying, bug, ice, and fire types has to do specifically with what rocks are. So insofar as a body made of rock does more damage or is harder to stop than not (fire is weak to it for example because it can't just burn away the attack like it can plant attacks or a normal type trying to body slam them), the body slam will be "rock type."
u/Bowbreaker [+1] Solitary Locust (2 days later)
Whoops. I missed that your two replies were slightly different. On FFnet you wrote
So all that said, a "Normal human" will experience a Ghost attack as basically harmless. Since the effects are largely emotional manipulation, a Ghost attack might still make them very afraid or depressed, but the trauma associated would be negligible, since people feel normal levels of fear and sadness all the time without it being scarring.
while on here you wrote
So all that said, a "Dark human" will experience a Ghost attack as roughly half the "effect," and thus far less permanent. Since the effects are largely emotional manipulation, an attack that might normally make its victim filled with mindless terror would just make a Dark pokemon or human scared for awhile. The trauma associated would be negligible, since people feel normal levels of fear all the time without it being scarring.
This makes me wonder why Dark humans are more affected by Ghost attacks than baseline humans. Especially if it has to do with the supposedly normal levels of fear humans (and Normal Pokemon?) experience all the time. It also makes it weird that Psychic humans, who I assume are not exceptionally more fearless and happy, are so much more susceptible to Psychic attacks.
u/DaystarEld [+2] Pokémon Professor (2 days later)
Ghosts use the powers of the person against them: Dark people and pokemon have a unique power that isn't quite like Psychics, but isn't wholly distinct either. Normal pokemon and people HAVE no powers to be manipulated.
u/Bowbreaker [+1] Solitary Locust (2 days later)
That of course calls into question both why Normal/X Pokemon or even just Normal Pokemon that have learned untyped energy attacks like Hyberbeam aren't affected and why non-energy-converting Pokemon like most Rock, many Ground, mundane Bug and maybe even some Grass and Water Pokemon are affected just as much as all the high energy Pokemon, including being more affected than Dark types (though those may just have inherent resistances that on the one hand are more spread out than the Normal immunity and on the other hand are just as susceptible to Ki).
u/DaystarEld [+2] Pokémon Professor (2 days later)
Hyperbeam isn't actually an energy-beam in my world: it follows most other "special" Normal attacks in being a concentrated sound wave.
As for why the substance-based types are affected, that's a bit harder to pin down. The thing I keep circling back to in my head is to stop thinking of it as "damage" and more as an "effect." So the types are classified because of observations of effects, not because anyone can actually quantify how affected non-Normal types are compared to Normal types: they just note that Dark and Normal types seem less hampered and less hurt by ghost attacks than other types. And since there are no "bug people" or "rock people," there's no one they can ask "What does a ghost attack feel like to you?" to see why they're affected more than "normal" people.
u/Bowbreaker [+1] Solitary Locust (2 days later)
It seems to me that in your world the difference between resistance and outright immunity is rather muddled. Are Pokemon of some types actually immune to anything or is it just varying degrees of resistance?
Regarding the substance based Pokemon, maybe it interferes with whatever weird mechanism that allows them to mentally manipulate their substance in the first place. Clearly most of those Pokemon can use attacks that use more energy than can possibly be stored by purely biological means. Fire Pokemon often have non-stop open flames that can be expanded to whole firestorms, Water displays forms of Hydrokinesis that seems to go beyond just high pressure water expulsion from an orifice, Grass can accelerate the growth of its symbiotic plant parts fast enough to be methods of attack, not to mention some of the nutrient draining techniques and other special category attacks, Electric can store vast amounts of power and direct the flow of electricity, Ice can inexplicably lower temperatures in the environment and expel and control frozen water and Dragons seem to be able to learn most of the above to varying degrees.
The odd ones are the physical types that don't have to resort to "supernatural" control of laws of nature. Those being Flying (though mostly either immune or coupled to another type), Poison, Ground, Bug and Steel.
The rest are types with a known (or in case of Normal hypothesized by me) mental component.
u/DaystarEld [+2] Pokémon Professor (2 days later)
Very muddled indeed: I imagine that if the game didn't try to oversimplify things so much, it would be the same there. Should BOTH rock AND steel take exactly 2x damage from fighting? Are Ground pokemon really as untouched by a lightning bolt as flying are to an earthquake? Immunities exist where they make sense as emergent properties (which really, in this case is just the flying/ground thing and maybe steel/poison): everything else is varying resistance.
Right, I strongly considered having the ghosts just mess with their biology in a way that made their powers unstable and hurt themselves, but as you say the substance ones mess it up. It would be easier if we just imagine that Rock and Steel types can actually control gravity and magnetism or something similar, but bug and ground are still a problem, and those solutions set off a whole new set of issues.
u/Bowbreaker [+1] Solitary Locust (2 days later)
Ghost doesn't need to make the powers themselves unstable. That wouldn't really fit with the flavor anyway. Instead it uses the control and source of those excessive energy reserves as a catalyst to get to the targets mind or emotions or what have you. Which works because, seeing how little sense it makes when you consider conventional physics, these mechanisms probably presides in the same category of physical phenomena as the so known "mental" attacks.
I even had a second hypothesis in mind regarding this that doesn't perfectly align with my "Normal is a mental trait" hypothesis.
To make it short, what if most of the Pokemon superpowers come from the manipulation of an as of yet non-detectable substance. Something that is often called/mistaken as a spirit energy, but that I'll just call endoplasm. So this endoplasm is what either gets drawn from (or allows the user to draw from some larger source) whenever Pokemon seemingly defy conservation of energy. Endoplasm interacts directly with the mind in a subconscious way that is closely tied to emotions. One could even consider that endoplasm partially holds the mind itself, thus giving credibility to those that believe in souls and such.
Then we have ectoplasm. Either it is a form of entoplasm that for inexplicable reasons is visible and slightly interacts with the physical world (though it is still mostly intangible to touch) and doesn't require a body as a vessel or it is just another unexplored substance. In any case it is mostly dark purple of color and can have strong interactions with other creatures endoplasm, creating pain, emotional anguish and some times a loss of control of related control of the manipulation of "conventional" laws of physics.
"Psychic" powers are carried by a different medium that move in the mental realm but to a different effect. They are however closely tied to endoplasm, which is the go to mediator between biological entities and this unexplored dimension. Therefore Psychic types are especially susceptible to Ghost attacks, just like Ghost type Pokemon who are essentially made almost entirely of ectoplasm.
Dark types emit a "Dark" field that strongly disrupts Psychic effects and to a lesser extent prevents ecto on endo interactions.
The Bug type also plays into this in a very complicated fashion I as of yet don't know how exactly to integrate. They probably have their own medium similar but distinct from endoplasm. Maybe an older evolutionary path that allows more minor mental effects and abilities but has a distinct interaction to the other established mental Types.
And yes, this hypothesis argues that Normal Pokemon and humans essentially don't have souls.
u/DaystarEld [+2] Pokémon Professor (2 days later)
And yes, this hypothesis argues that Normal Pokemon and humans essentially don't have souls.
Haha. That would be a funny twist to those Dark people who are treated as such by psychics/normals!
u/Bowbreaker [+1] Solitary Locust (2 days later)
Remember that Cubone ghost in the Pokemon Tower with all the ghosts in first editions? Now we know what exactly it is that makes Ground Pokemon different from Normal Pokemon. The latter are philosophical zombies!
u/DaystarEld [+2] Pokémon Professor (2 days later)
I actually see some ghosts as being capable of shapeshifting and creating illusions (mental, not actual), so that's how I planned to go about that one :)
u/Bowbreaker [+1] Solitary Locust (3 days later)
I have, a long time ago. Thanks for making me reread it.
u/Bowbreaker [+1] Solitary Locust (2 days later)
And to fill in the last details, Normal/X still miss a soul while X/Normal use very little Endoplasm and have found an as of yet unknown method to resist Ghost attacks. Girafarig delegates all its Psychic duties to the secondary head that evolved to neither emotionally affect the rest of the body nor make complex decisions and Meloetta is just weird and probably not even Normal but instead Ghost resistant "reasons".
u/Bowbreaker [+1] Solitary Locust (2 days later)
I've got more questions. Am I right to assume that most Normal type Pokemon with several evolutions are sexually mature in all forms? If yes, how typical is it for, say, a Rattata for instance to evolve into a Ratikate and how and why does that happen? Why as in what stimuli caused it to do so, not as in why did evolution chose such weird paths. Also, am I correct to assume that Ratikates lay Rattata eggs, just like in canon?
The reason I ask is cases like Bidoof/Bibarel. Seeing how the young are less water capable and, according to Bulbapedia, nest in large groups near water instead of building dams like their evolved forms, I was curious if that means they are kind of separate to their parents or if Bidoof have their own young and colonies while Bibarel lay their eggs/bring their young into said colonies.
u/DaystarEld [+2] Pokémon Professor (2 days later)
Good question, because that's another area I'm rewriting from the canon: the whole concept of pokemon eggs is pure game mechanic ("Where did this egg come from? It just appeared when these two pokemon made smoochy-faces at eachother! How strange!") meant to preserve the innocence of children, and perhaps help sidestep any messy biological questions the audience might have.
Since I have no intention of making, say, a wailord able to crossbreed with a skitty, I'm going to be scrapping and reconstructing the way reproduction is represented in the games and cartoon for one that more closely mirrors our world's, if not completely.
All that said, young evolutions of pokemon are not sexually mature.
u/Bowbreaker [+1] Solitary Locust (2 days later)
Are you rewriting only the illogical crossover part or also the egg laying part? Because I always saw Pokemon as egg layers. And I always thought they would copulate on the farm while you were elsewhere.
Regarding maturity, is that just in general or all across the board? Pokemon that need special circumstances to evolve, Pokemon that represent a different type of animal than their pre-evolution and Pokemon that drastically change type during evolution come to mind. Also, this would require extensive rewrites of canon biology in some cases. See Bidoof/Bibarel. Or, more extreme, Magikarp/Gyarados/whatever Mega Gyarados is supposed to be.
u/DaystarEld [+2] Pokémon Professor (2 days later)
Most non-mammal pokemon are egg layers, as in life. I'm not sure if there are any mammals that make more sense as egg layers or not.
In general, and for pokemon that need special circumstances, that's also being rewritten a bit. For example, no pokemon need to be "traded" to evolve. Some realistic equivalent might be appropriate on a case-by-case basis, but things that are too clearly game mechanics are being scrapped.
u/Bowbreaker [+1] Solitary Locust (2 days later)
The fewest Pokemon can accurately be considered mammals for any reason other than them being similar to real world animals that don't exist in the Pokemon world. Fur=/=mammal and only a handful have even remotely visible mammaries. And even in our world there are a few egg laying mammals, so not even that is necessarily a problem.
u/DaystarEld [+2] Pokémon Professor (2 days later)
Do you see ghosts as reproducing through eggs?
u/Bowbreaker [+1] Solitary Locust (2 days later)
Damn you're right. Though I don't even know where Ghosts come from at all in your version. Neither do I want it spoiled out of story as that discovery will probably be an interesting event for Red. But I did just write another hypothesis that heavily focuses on Ghost Pokemon and what they are, physically speaking.
u/empocariam [+1] (5 days later)
I actually wrote a piece that kept Pokémon reproduction more or less in line with game mechanics, that boiled down to all Pokémon being essentially clones of their mother that were spawned in the womb and were incubated in an epigentic-vomit egg from their "fathers". It was a lot more gross than just two Biberals having sex, that's for sure. I understood why the Daycare man left it vague after that.
u/DaystarEld [+1] Pokémon Professor (5 days later)
Haha, nice.
u/Bowbreaker [+1] Solitary Locust (2 days later)
On a completely different note, why is Bug a substance type while Dragon is descriptive according to Red.
u/DaystarEld [+1] Pokémon Professor (2 days later)
I'm curious to know what you think first. Why might someone look at the dragons (and non-dragons) in the pokemon world and think (rightly or wrongly) that it's a descriptive feature rather than one of inherent biological uniqueness?
u/Bowbreaker [+1] Solitary Locust (2 days later)
Well, on the one hand Dragons are rare enough that it could just be coincidence but on the other hand they seem to have a wide mastery of energy control in varying forms that could be seen as more important to their categorization than just their looks, seeing how many Pokemon look more like dragons without being called such by scholars. Compare Goodra, Altaria and Noivern on the one hand to Aerodactyl, Skarmory and Charizard on the other.
In any case, if descriptive types are a mix of impression and ability then Bug should be right along the other, no? And, according to the Normal as a mental trait hypothesis, that one should be there too. It just happens to coincide with a lot of Pokemon that have no mentionable substance type.
u/DaystarEld [+1] Pokémon Professor (2 days later)
Descriptive types are based on emergent properties rather than basic biology. The advantages and weaknesses flying pokemon have are due to the fact that they fly, not that they're biologically birds or specifically have wings.
Bugs are substance based because their bug-ness lies at the center of their strengths and weaknesses.
u/Bowbreaker [+1] Solitary Locust (2 days later)
Except that their defensive traits and even more so their offensive traits can not just be explained away by their easily observable body structure. And wouldn't the same argument work to make Dragon a substance type? After all it could be considered a mixture of several other substance types in a way.
u/DaystarEld [+1] Pokémon Professor (2 days later)
Remember that you asked why RED thinks Bug is a substance and Dragon descriptive. Think of it from his perspective: do you see anything that makes it obvious Dragon types have something basic in common? Or is it just a label used to link pokemon that show some similar characteristics?
u/Bowbreaker [+1] Solitary Locust (2 days later)
Its just that if biology is the issue I can't see much in common between, say, an Arcanine or Ninetails and a Slugma or a Magmortar. This goes even more so for Poison Pokemon who seem to have almost nothing in common other than in some way producing one or more substances harmful to most other living creatures. I mean they range from indigestible plants over animals with varying degrees of venom including invertebrates, reptiles and mammas to pollution given life as if extreme chemical reactions had bound endoplasm to themselves.
u/DaystarEld [+2] Pokémon Professor (2 days later)
Exactly. That's kind of Red's point in saying that the Type system is silly :) Fire pokemon are incredibly diverse: most within a Type are. The only thing Fire types have in common is that they're beings that can produce or are made of or are resistant to fire (though that last one obviously is shared with other beings for different reasons).
But it's still a biological aspect of them. It's not the SAME aspect, and as a result, a slugma is going to be FAR more vulnerable to, say, rain, than an arcanine is.
So the diversity between two Fire or Bug types is constrained by some inborn traits (what it IS) versus two Flying or Fighting types' capabilities (what they DO). There's obviously some overlap, but the focus is still distinct.
From that perspective, the way Red sees it there's nothing unique to the pokemon society calls "Dragon" at all. It seems to just be a label applied to any incredibly strong and fierce pokemon, with a couple exceptions. And there's even a lot of argument about whether some pokemon like Charizard and Gyarados are dragons or not. They're certainly capable of emitting the unique energy signature identified as "dragon," which might just be a unique kind of fire or plasma, but they don't have the same weaknesses and resistances expected of those considered a "pure" dragon.
The type is one of the least understood and most contradictory. Without our world's game mechanical rules to help everything be clear cut, it's almost impossible to find any inherent similarity between them. "Weak to dragon" is the most unique, but dragons are so powerful that everything non-dragon seems weak to them.
u/Bowbreaker [+1] Solitary Locust (3 days later)
Hmm okay. So then do Ground Pokemon have similar tissue or do they only have their resistances if they have actual ground to bury themselves in for protection? It seems a quality of their biology to be insulated against electrical current. Though I don't know how in a realistic fight a Type can be strong against Fire without also being resistant to it.
u/DaystarEld [+2] Pokémon Professor (3 days later)
Yes, most Ground pokemon aren't actually immune to electricity biologically, so much as they're very capable of evading or grounding it as long as they're on earth. Though this might just be something that Red is wrong about, since some ground pokemon like Cubone are not at all Substance, while others like Golett are actually made of earth/clay.
u/The_Mad_Duke [+1] House Tremontaine (2 days later)
Another great chapter. I love your protagonists and their dynamics. Liked the new things we learned about Leaf in this chapter. Really enjoyed the last scene, liked the use of the webs to capture pokemon (and its nice to see Red, Blue and Leaf getting along again after the fight as a result of their shared enthusiasm for capturing pokemon).
Red's thought about Giovanni's "unique way of rationally looking at the world" struck me as a little strange, as he seems to have grown up surrounded by so many competent and highly intelligent people (Oak, his dad, with whom he had that interesting conversation about risks, his mom, Daisy).
u/DaystarEld [+3] Pokémon Professor (2 days later)
Thanks, glad you enjoyed it!
As for Red's perspective on Giovanni, there's a fine line between intelligence and rationality. Perhaps it's better to say, different people have varying skills at expressing rationality in compelling and provacative ways.
Certainly Red learned some rational thinking from his parents and the Oaks, but each in a specific sphere of influence, while Giovanni speaks of rationality as an endeavor.
u/empocariam [+1] (5 days later)
Hey Eld, thinking about the Normal/Fighting/Ghost immunity thing in your world. When a move like Flame Charge effects a Ghost Pokemon, is it only the fire that effects it, or does the impact connect with something as well?
Edit: Also is "Struggle" a thing in your world?
u/DaystarEld [+1] Pokémon Professor (5 days later)
Depends on the Ghost. Some have more physical bodies than others, and many can disperse themselves into dense gasses :)
u/Calamitizer [+1] Shears (6 days later)
I'm enjoying this very much so far! Also, I have a minor question. Why exactly would Red indulge calling "steel" type such, given that he abjures the name "grass" type? There are already established counterexamples (e.g. Skarmory's titanium composition).
u/DaystarEld [+3] Pokémon Professor (6 days later)
Woops, you're right, mentioned that earlier and forgot. Thanks for pointing it out, you're the first person to do so! Fixed :)
Thanks for reading, and glad you're enjoying it!