scrape_r_rational/data/cache2/2pkefr.md

Following the Phoenix Chapter 109: Negotiations, Pt 1

• Author: u/Saffrin-chan *

• URL: https://www.fanfiction.net/s/10636246/29/Following-the-Phoenix

• Score: 20

• Created: 2014-12-17T10:43:57

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u/noggin-scratcher [+6] I am a happy tree (53 minutes later)

I can almost hear the "What are you doing you idiot child" from Malfoy after that last line... I'm not certain I disagree with it either, that seems like a risky gambit.

u/traverseda [+3] With dread but cautious optimism (2 hours later)

He's not fighting england, he's fighting voldemorte.

u/polytoxicoman [+2] (2 hours later)

This still reminds me of times when I realized I just lost a game of chess: I would try to strike an immediate victory, however futile. Though since the fic is somewhat railroaded, it might not matter. (Not that I really mind - it is still an enjoyable read).

u/IX-103 [+1] (8 hours later)

Or at least he thinks he's fighting voldemorte/Riddle/Quirrell. Remember from Ch. 27: "Harry, smiling, had asked Professor Quirrell what level he played at, and Professor Quirrell, also smiling, had responded, One level higher than you."

The primary source for Harry's perception of Quirrell's motivation is from his speech in ch. 34-35. While there is further evidence that HPMoR:Quirrell was expressing his true opinion in that speech, the majority of that occurs after FtP split off, so it is not really part of FtP. If voldemorte/Quirrell's assessment of his own ability to model Harry is still accurate by chapters 34-35, then this speech (or for that matter the whole related aspect of the Quirrell personality) could have been shaped to produce this very result.

In fact, I would be surprised if a rational Quirrell would let something like this happen unintentionally. By allowing Harry to put a binding on Malfoy and Dumbledore and take them to the negotiation, Harry's surrender has pretty much removed any chance of the government of magical Britain forming an effective response.

Since the bindings and the negotiation team were both widely available information and there was relatively long duration available for Quirrell to act on it, we can only assume Quirrell did nothing to disrupt it because he found it would most likely not go against his plan. So either Quirrell made a significant error in both assessing his confidence in his ability to predict Harry's actions and predicting Harry's actions, or the result was intentional.

u/Sailor_Vulcan [+2] Champion of Justice and Reason (9 hours later)

Oh! Lucius Malfoy's comment about how easy it would be to imperius all the muggles there. I bet that's what voldemort's planning. Once the British Ministry of Magic is under the control of the British muggle government, Voldemort and his death eaters swoop in and start imperiusing the most important government officials.

u/mcgruntman [+1] (11 hours later)

Why? It would have been totally possible to imperius both sides from the start. I would be surprised if this were the plan.

u/traverseda [+2] With dread but cautious optimism (11 hours later)

If voldemorte/Quirrell's assessment of his own ability to model Harry is still accurate [...]

But he'll never truly understand love!

u/scruiser [+3] CYOA (12 hours later)

Stupid Poe's Law...

I've seriously suggested this represent a major cognitive defect in Quirrelmort's reasoning... Are you being sarcastic? It would be perfectly plausible for Quirrel to fail because he underestimated someone's altruism.

u/None [+3] (a day later)

[deleted]

u/scruiser [+2] CYOA (a day later)

If you recall the humanism arc, Harry put several different trains of thought into his TPC. The absolute rejection of death was part of it. But Harry also thought of his will to protect everyone from death and of his certainty that mankind would defeat death even if he should die. Quirrelmort does not care to protect anyone else from death, and he has no faith that mankind might overcome death together.

u/traverseda [+1] With dread but cautious optimism (a day later)

Not sarcasm, but I do think if that is truly the problem then it's a bit silly.

u/RMcD94 [+0] (8 hours later)

*UK

u/None [+3] (6 hours later)

He's pulling a Doctor.

u/scruiser [+3] CYOA (8 hours later)

The Doctor has used a lot of crazy strategies... which one are you referring to? The "I surrender so now you can monologue and tell me all your strategies and intentions" strategy? The "let me desperately beg for peace while also setting up a hidden plot" strategy? Or the common "hijack control of everything leveraging the local technology magic and his sonic screw driver wand along with the applied phlebotinum magic of the current episode plot-arc" strategy?

u/MoralRelativity [+3] (9 hours later)

You've summed up the re-boot of Doctor Who quite nicely.

u/scruiser [+4] CYOA (9 hours later)

I've never seen classic who, so this is all I know. I do like the show, in spite of, or perhaps because I find the plots predictable. There is something fun about it, even when it is clearly into the fantasy side of fantasy sci-fi and I can see the plot twists within the first 15 minutes.

u/MoralRelativity [+3] (13 hours later)

Classic Who lasted for decades so it's quite a mix but overall the plots and characterisations are less well developed AND the pace was much slower. BUT it was great at the time and definitely still fun fantasy sci-fi.

u/None [+2] (10 hours later)

Pretty much all of the above.

u/ArisKatsaris [+2] Sidebar Contender (9 hours later)

Risky compared to what? Where was the safe course for Harry to take, assuming he did NOT want a wizard-Muggle war, or a wizard tyranny over Muggles?

u/None [+2] (21 hours later)

[deleted]

u/ArisKatsaris [+1] Sidebar Contender (a day later)

My question was "risky compared to what?" and you've not answered that.

As long as you don't answer that, you're missing the point of my question, that pretty every other alternative is worse.

u/ajuc [+4] (2 hours later)

Sure it was worth it to teach Harry losing :)

Now Riddle has to "write off" Harry as lost investment (because he lost all credibility in wizards world).

u/scruiser [+1] CYOA (3 hours later)

Now Riddle has to "write off" Harry as lost investment (because he lost all credibility in wizards world).

I am worried that he may first decide to punish Harry by killing a couple thousand muggles.

u/JackStargazer [+2] Primordial Apologist (11 hours later)

While surrender could be a viable option if it was conditional, surrender in name only perhaps, unconditional surrender is not going to go over very well.

I feel like there is going to be exposition in the next chapter that perhaps makes this seem a better option than it does now. Though I feel that sort of defeats the purpose of a rational story - in that we are supposed to have access to the same information as Harry (in general) so we can follow his thought processes.

I don't know about the rest of you, but this doesn't seem like a great idea to me. Even if he is just doing this as a big middle finger to Quirrel, I think we've got enough evidence now that any blatant confrontation of Quirrell is a really freaking bad idea.

u/MadScientist14159 [+2] WIP: Sodium Hypochlorite (Rational Bleach) Eventually. Maybe. (2 days later)

I think I've found a world in which Harry's gambit makes sense.

Next Chapter:

"Of course," said Harry, "a large majority vote by the wizarding equivelant of the house of lords can overturn my decision and dissolve our treaty. So this is your oppurtunity to win them over. I know these people and can offer advice, but ultimately, what you offer them for their surrender is up to you. What, your majesty, would become of magical Britain under your rule?"

In this way Harry puts himself in the "Us" category in parliments "Us against Them" view, but still manages to get a fair deal for wizards, since the Queen is likely to offer more than she otherwise would have as she now has no idea of how much she needs to give up to ensure peace and giving more than she could have is safer than giving potentially too little (in addition, she only has one shot at it, as opposed to the ability to negotiate that she would have had dealing with Harry).

u/okaycat [+1] (10 hours later)

I don't really understand Harry's strategy here. There is no way that the Wizegnomet would agree with Harry's surrender to the muggles. Couldn't the just overrule his surrender? I remember Harry mentioning in a previous chapter that that the Wizognemet could overrule him if they had a 90% majority. That doesn't seem difficult at all considering what Harry is proposing.

Honestly if I was a wizard I'd be pretty pissed.

u/Chronophilia [+1] sci-fi ≠ futurology (11 hours later)

They're going to be pissed, but 90% majority is a tall order. If Dumbledore doesn't speak out against him, he only needs a few people to think he knows what he's doing.

u/scruiser [+1] CYOA (12 hours later)

he only needs a few people to think he knows what he's doing.

Heck, he only needs to imply that this is a part of some hidden master plan and I bet he could get at least 10% to buy it.

u/None [+1] (a day later)

I don't really understand Harry's strategy here.

He just destroyed the entire political game of Magical Britain and its base in petty, unideological rivalries and personal power gamesmanship, to replace it with (we can idealize) the ideologically rivalrous, upwards-reaching democracy of the Muggle world.

From the point of view of his earlier goals, mission accomplished.

u/ajuc [+1] (a day later)

I think it's meant more as "destroy my credibility and make wizards don't trust 1-person-authority", than "solve the war problem".

The original problem is Voldemort plans around Harry, not the war. Solving the war with Harry as belenvolent dictator for life wouldn't set Voldemort back much, it would be actually playing for his hand.

u/MadScientist14159 [+1] WIP: Sodium Hypochlorite (Rational Bleach) Eventually. Maybe. (3 days later)

make wizards don't trust 1-person-authority

Harry knows enough psychology to realise this wouldn't work. They would just stop trusting him, then all flock to the next charismatic politician who comes along.

u/rp20 [+1] (15 hours later)

Is Quirrel still employing the time turner? Does he already know?

u/scruiser [+1] CYOA (15 hours later)

He is limited in how he can use the time turner. The information he receives from the future limits his options in the past. Our best guess on his previous scheme meant that he would have had false positives on Harry's death in order to avoid any risk. So Quirrel may have up to six hours of prep time, but he cannot have retroactively interfered in shaping this event. But yeah, he probably has a time turner.

u/dhighway61 [+1] (20 hours later)

A time turner is far too useful for Quirrell not to have one.

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