21 KiB
[BST] How much resources would you need to conquer the world?
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Author: u/Shadawn *
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URL: https://www.reddit.com/r/rational/comments/2ufsf6/bst_how_much_resources_would_you_need_to_conquer/
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Score: 9
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Created: 2015-02-01T20:07:21
Post:
Imagine you've just met green-haired girl, and she asked you to conquer the world. And then she told that if you refuse, you're going to die horribly, and she will ask someone else. Now she's ready to give you any assistance you need, be it information, technology, money or superpowers. Of course, she prove her capabilities with some impressive feats.
By "conquering", this girl wants you to be able to unite most of the Earth population behind possibly unethical task. Invading other sentient species is a good example. Nobody cares about official titles - you can rule from the shadows, but you need to be efficient about it. Also, you need to keep at least 80% of current population alive and able. And you have a time limit of 10 years.
But she also told that you're not the only one she contacted. She's holding a tender of sorts, searching for a lowest bidder. You don't know exact metrics used to determine a "cost" of resources, but generally more powerful (Death Stars) and more precise (full brainwashing) costs more. AGI is unavailable, neither are self-replicating robots or large-scale robot factories. Also, creativity brings some merit. Intentionally losing tender is not an option - not only would you die, but your friends/family risk living in a world conquered by someone else.
Any clever ideas?
Comments:
u/ajuc [+7] (32 minutes later)
I aske her to give me undeniable proof that she has the powers she claims to have, so that others can be persuaded. I can pay her for that proof with loaned money, so that total cost is 0 USD.
I persuade world population with that proof, that resistane is futile, and that they should just let me conquer them, for a promise that except for one thing I will do that is non-negotiable - I will create worldwide democracy.
u/Shadawn [+2] (an hour later)
I don't think UN (or any other body) would ratify going to interplanetar war with other species, however good of a proof you're going to present (unless it contains serious threat, and this needs to be pretty efficient to both win tender and do the job). I think alot of people would try to dispose of you somehow.
u/chaosmosis [+1] and with strange aeons, even death may die (2 hours later)
Is convincing everyone necessary? I think only top officials and perhaps a certain percentage of the population would be enough.
u/ajuc [+1] (22 hours later)
They will be conquered anyway, just by someone using more drastic methods and no guarantees. I'm the least evil. Also I paid for irrefutable proof, so that's what I'm going to get (she delivers, right?).
u/krakonfour [+5] (an hour later)
Code Geass?
u/JackStargazer [+6] Primordial Apologist (20 hours later)
That was my first thought as well.
Geass of Absolute Command would likely be enough. Just establish a macro that you could call "Action A" or "Action B" for quick commanding, Include within it several or all of the following:
- "Perform perfectly normally except obey any verbal command I give you prefaced with the words 'Would you kindly'?"
- "Do not harm me, or through inaction allow me to come to harm."
- "Inform me or any attempts or plans by others to harm me."
And so on. Create a good macro and use that. This is important because it is a thing that works only once per target, but lasts forever when used. The objective is to balance personal safety with retention of free will.
Then test if the Geass can be used as an Oracle (ie. Geass someone to answer P=NP. Are they forced to tell the absolute truth, the truth they know?) and any other number of edge cases.
Then, once your macro is set, just hit everyone who may be a threat to you (likely almost everyone) with your above Geass. Maybe add a number of trigger words so that it isn't so obvious to non-Geass people when you give commands [which you shouldn't need to do often, since your Geass should be coded to make them act in your best interest.
Your ideal situation is a quick ascent to power in which everyone just assumes you are that charismatic and nobody ever thinks you have any kind of special power.
This is what Lelouch should have done.
u/None [+1] (2 days later)
Then test if the Geass can be used as an Oracle (ie. Geass someone to answer P=NP. Are they forced to tell the absolute truth, the truth they know?) and any other number of edge cases.
I think assuming that mind-control grants access to Platonic mathematical truths is... well, I think the Platonism is one assumption too far even if we presume mysticism about the mind, no?
u/JackStargazer [+2] Primordial Apologist (2 days later)
True. I don't assume it works, hence why it would be useful to test it. But considering in Canon, Geass arises from a power related to the collective unconscious of mankind in what appears to be a parallel dimension where physical laws are really more minor suggestions than actual rules...
I wouldn't rule anything out.
u/None [+3] (40 minutes later)
More powerful and more precise costs more. Fine. What's the cost of my gaining ownership of most of the world's major oil wells, mineral deposits, and investment banks through a network of shell companies? I negotiate with the girl I've promptly labeled "Lyra Heartstrings" for trolling's sake to find the optimal trade-off point between getting my entry to the essential markets and having a low contract cost for her.
I figure I could even start with something small, like using cultural understanding or very minor mind-control to start bringing the mineral wealth of Afghanistan to global markets (EDIT: Can't do that in 10 years, CRAP), amassing a solid billionaire-hood for myself, with which I can plot my takeovers of the other markets and my acquisition of relevant governments.
From there I'll be able to control enough of global political opinion-leadership to push public policy in much of the world whichever way I want it. If I put in a low-enough contract cost to start with to support some evil mind-control or something, I can even use that or similar on recalcitrantly honest officials.
EDIT: Lacking the mineral wealth of Afghanistan, and assuming gaining control over Saudi Arabia is too costly, I'd negotiate for some technological Phlebotinum capable of launching the next Google-grade tech startup within 5 years to attain multi-billionaire-hood. Or I could just use Phlebotinum to replace an existing mega-billionaire who's capable of all this stuff I need.
BASICALLY: THE KOCH BROTHERS.
u/Shadawn [+2] (an hour later)
Do you have any evidence for or against the ability of "muggle" multi-billionaires to get complete controlof the world (enough to declare total war on different species) in 10 years? I'd say, given the amount of multi-billionaires, it's not that trivial, otherwise someone would already do that. Elon Musk is THE prime suspect here.
u/None [+1] (an hour later)
Do you have any evidence for or against the ability of "muggle" multi-billionaires to get complete controlof the world (enough to declare total war on different species) in 10 years?
I think the average multibillionaire is simply not trying for world domination, or he would be enacting some form of my scheme where he finds ways to dominate not merely one industry but all of them.
But oh well: you didn't tell me what my budgeting trade-offs for Phlebotinum actually are.
u/Shadawn [+1] (an hour later)
Perhaps they think it's futile, and stakes aren't that high and personal for them. Or maybe some of them are trying, but world GDP is close to 100 trillions. It's non-trivial to take over that with merely some billions, at least for me.
On the trade-off: one-time body-change is really cheap, i think (even with added knowledge for easier impersonation). Some pieces of near-future technological understanding would cost more, but still well within the budget.
u/None [+3] (13 hours later)
Some pieces of near-future technological understanding would cost more, but still well within the budget.
Hmm... you didn't rule out human cognitive enhancement.
u/itisike [+1] Dragon Army (18 hours later)
I've written before that the minimum for taking over the world is at least in the hundreds of billions, or it would have been done already.
With that kind of money, though, you could easily buy up all the politicians you need, and kill any that happen to refuse (haha).
Total spending on American politics runs into the billions, so that can be outbid. I don't know offhand about other countries, but I expect it isn't that much more to outspend all the relevant ones.
u/Igigigif [+3] IT Foxgirl (51 minutes later)
Breedable mind control parasites that you can control from anywhere on earth.
u/Shadawn [+2] (an hour later)
I'd like to elaborate on your plans. Do you intend to mind control only political/business elite? Army? Full world population? First plan could go haywire when general population learns of that "interplanetar war". People would be re-elected, and even if you mind-control new leaders again, people still wouldn't like going to war. And some medical test could notice the parasytes, and that would completely derail the plan.
On the other hand, full-population mind control wouldn't go throught the tender, in my opinion.
u/Igigigif [+1] IT Foxgirl (an hour later)
First off, even limited more and control can get you access to basically unlimited resources. You can then use the resources to gain a solid position and execute any plan that does not require exta-normal resources.
u/Charlie___ [+3] (an hour later)
By "conquering", this girl wants you to be able to unite most of the Earth population behind possibly unethical task.
So, she wants you to become the director of a large media empire?
As long as there's no powerful opposition to the thing I have to convince people of, at least - George Soros (and allied media groups) and Roget Ailes (and allied media groups) can oppose each other, but imagine if they both wanted to blow up Pupulon - who's to oppose them?
u/Shadawn [+1] (an hour later)
I wasn't clear enough, but this interplanetar war isn't going to be easy. Blowing Pupulon is one thing - total war with our level civilization is completely different. You can try to demonize them, but what if they are peaceful, ready for cooperation but must be destroyed anyway?
u/None [+2] (12 hours later)
Total war in the current economic conditions is easy: it requires ramping up all available productive infrastructure, thus ensuring full employment. Promise that and the entire Western world will follow you. Deliver, and the Third World will follow along to sell you what you need.
The Fnargl approach is rather more powerful than people usually give credit for: an "evil overlord" who is not actively trying to damage the population, but merely to get something done, can accomplish a whole lot very easily by just buying off or propagandizing all possible opposition.
u/Sceptically [+6] (an hour later)
Step one: enlist the aid of someone competent.
Step two: get out of the way and let them do it.
u/Chronophilia [+2] sci-fi ≠ futurology (17 hours later)
Which is precisely what your Mystery Magical Benefactor is already doing. The recursion only works if you're good at finding people more competent than yourself.
u/Sceptically [+2] (a day later)
Which is precisely what your Mystery Magical Benefactor is already doing. The recursion only works if you're good at finding people more competent than yourself.
Well, yeah, but at least I'm almost certain to be better at that than said Mystery Magical Benefactor. After all, I have strong doubts as to the difficulty in finding someone more suited to the task than me.
u/puesyomero [+2] The Culture (2 hours later)
a guessing power like Tattletale of worm or maybe a transmittable "like me" curse (shake hands and now you want to make me happy above all). I would go as low as to ask only to get an IQ 4-sigma above average, 60k dollars, and instinctual charisma to rival Hitler and the pope at their best.
u/Cruithne [+2] Light Sith epistemologist (a day later)
Accord's power would probably work better here. Ability to solve problems that scales in relation to the problem.
u/LeonCross [+1] (4 days later)
And that's with the default assumption that Contessa is far too expensive.
u/traverseda [+1] With dread but cautious optimism (an hour later)
You've been watching eden of the east?
u/Evilness42 [+1] And even myth is long forgotten... (2 hours later)
A machine that will transmit an undeniably transmit what she has told me to every person in the world, telling people what they have to do in order to not be conquered by someone with less savory methods of world domination.
Also, immortality or as close as I can get to it.
u/Shadawn [+1] (2 hours later)
I doubt this would help you rally an army for an interplanet war. Thus immortality won't help - tender is lost.
u/Evilness42 [+1] And even myth is long forgotten... (2 hours later)
No, I'm not trying to rally an army. I'm simply undeniably telling people: do X or someone with superpowers is going to try to become Dictator of Humanity.
The immortality/close as I can get it is just because I don't want to think of a non-Xtreme Tender version of it atm.
u/Shadawn [+3] (3 hours later)
Perhaps it wasn't obvious, but you won't get any actual supernatural help (aside from the proof) before your plan gets vetted (perhaps with her precog powers).
u/traverseda [+1] With dread but cautious optimism (2 hours later)
How much would the super power "Predict how a crowd/demographic will react to something" cost?
Because that alone will take you a long way. Being perfectly charismatic, at least on average and to crowds. Basically everything I'd look for is an oracle like that. Let me get some expensive piece of information for free on a regular basis.
If that doesn't work, then simple mind reading (surface thoughts) might.
A superman package could be fun, but I don't imagine it affecting things on that scale. Even if I'm threatening spending all of my time murdering cute animals with rare diseases, governments aren't going to cave to my demands. I just become an end-bringer.
Anyone who's watched death note would at least consider the eponymous item, and probably if they read this they'd do a better job of it.
Maybe the jesus power set? Not nearly as powerful as superman, but you can play very differently and there's a lot of people that are very desperate. If I could genuinely perform miracle healing a cult following wouldn't be hard to achieve, and holy wars have a long tradition. Maybe I could reincarnate as one of the other abrahamic faith's prophets after I get killed the first time (budget permitting). See if I can rally everyone together.
In hind sight religion seems like a pretty good way to go. Nothing inspires a willingness to invade people like religion.
u/Shadawn [+1] (3 hours later)
I would rule massive social precog powers of sufficient accuracy/cost out because, if the girl had them, there would be no need in you.
Mind reading sounds fun, and, if power costs stack additively, it should be a part of the package. I don't know if mind-reading+billions are enough, tho.
Superman won't work imo.
Religion sounds like actually good idea. I would personally hate to go that way, but it's pretty efficient.
u/fljared [+1] United Federation of Planets (3 hours later)
A few buildings. Some loyal confederates. Guns.
Have a few confederates build a base in the desert, for show. Fake an alien invasion with a few actors in spacesuits. Have them "teleport" into the Australian outback, take over the base, and start killing everything with a pulse. Plant other agents in the first contact team and have them pretend they have some form of mental control that requires limiting of contact and communication between human and Xeno forces. Nuke the Xeno base, which, being in the outback, has limited human-death fallout.
I don't need to do much more to get humanity to start fighting aliens; The mental dominance lie allows me to ensure that all interactions with Xenos will be missile diplomacy and naught else.
Meanwhile, there was clearly some human help in building the base (My first agents, who have since appeared to have committed suicide); The aliens must have sleeper agents in the general populace!
Cue worldwide witchhunt, with myself gaining prominence as McCarthy 2.0 by browbeating agents into admitting guilt. Run off that goodwill to get into major politics and eventually the Presidency.
At that point, I'll have control of a major player in the new Human Expansion and Goodwill Effort, and therefore long term control over invasion plans.
u/Shadawn [+1] (3 hours later)
That's some nice ideas. Were you going to ask the girl for nukes, or did you intend to somehow convince current nuke-holders to fire them? Because in my opinion, you need much more than 1 base full of omnicidal maniacs in some desert before major powers will decide to use nuclear weapons. Special ops surely come before that, and your provocation would probably be debunked.
I was thinking about asking the girl for an actual alien invasion or some other enemy to unite humanity against. Or perhaps some biotech to make provocation more believable?
u/fljared [+1] United Federation of Planets (21 hours later)
My intrinsic idea was that the major powers would nuke it. In hindsight, they probably would take a few middle steps between "Infantry Recon" and "Nukes", so I'm going to say that other attempts start to fall victim to fake mind control too.
My original write-up included "advanced holo-emitters, but I'm more trying to economize here so I end up as the lowest bidder and don't die
u/eaglejarl [+1] (13 hours later)
So, basically, Watchmen?
u/fljared [+1] United Federation of Planets (a day later)
I was wondering where I got the idea...
u/eaglejarl [+1] (a day later)
You probably either parallel-invented it or it was stuck in your subconscious when you were thinking about this. I've done it an enormous number of times; doesn't mean it isn't frustrating.
u/Nepene [+1] (7 hours later)
Self replicating bacteria that upon me touching someone gestate for a certain amount of time predetermined by me, are tricky to detect, constantly spore to infect new people, are antibiotic resistant, and then after a fixed time period cause people to have severe necrosis and agony across their bodies and death. A fixed maximum number of new infectees, to limit the death toll,
I should be immune to these bacteria, and have the ability to spread a cure by touch to this disease. I should also have the ability to grant another person the ability to cure such a disease by touch, grant immunity, take away such an abilities with a touch, spead up the progression of a disease with a touch, or spread an anti plague that spreads and mass cures an area.
I also need an anonymous broadcast tech that can broadcast to lots of people around the world some sort of threatening message from this other species, or whatever is appropriate.
I'll spread this plague, causing mass death, while the broadcast software will indicate that this other species is coming and is bad. I'll establish and train prophets of my cause, supposedly 'children' of a friendly alien race (you), who can cure said disease, and unite the world behind their message of vengeance.
Assuming it's cheap, the ability to and the power to grant the ability to glow in the dark blue (photo luminescent bacteria) and the ability to grant whatever cheap augmentations are doable- muscle increase, intellect increase, charisma increase via genetically engineered viruses to woo people and to make me more durable.
u/Cruithne [+1] Light Sith epistemologist (a day later)
Could I accept the fact that others will bid lower than me, if I can use my higher bid to root out and destroy them before they can react? Of course, I'll have to account for the fact that they may also have thought of this strategy. I'd wish for something like a slightly better version of Contessa's power in Worm, one capable of winning in this regress. For good measure, I would also like powers that can screw with the past, fucking up their ability to hear the message before it's even happened.
u/khafra [+1] (2 days later)
By "conquering", this girl wants you to be able to unite most of the Earth population behind possibly unethical task.
The ethicality of the task is immaterial to the difficulty. What I need to know is how many people the task requires to go against their pre-existing incentive gradients.