8.6 KiB
Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality, Chapter 110: Reflections, Pt 2
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Author: u/None *
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Score: 35
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Created: 2015-02-24T20:38:40
Post:
Comments:
u/dodriohedron [+8] (37 minutes later)
Huh, well. I thought the mirror might be showing a Competent Dumbledore/Worthy Opponent (V's repeatedly stated desire), who would convince him back down/change his ways/self destruct.
It looks like either a Worthy Opponent wasn't really V's extrapolated volition, or that the mirror was instead a pre-arranged trap. Except.. the Process of the Timeless must have been pulled from V's memories, rather than actually being built into it by D (at this point, all unforeshadowed major plot elements are being pulled from somewhere at least). Anyone got any ideas of any CEVs of V that would generate Mirror Dumbledore?
BTW V didn't explicitly dismiss the Greater Circle of Concealment, or the Greater Circle of Exploding before dragging the cloak off Harry. I'm sure he did, otherwise it would have exploded, but I'm having to infer it.
u/Jace_MacLeod [+8] (2 hours later)
This might be confirmation bias - since I originally thought the mirror was showing CEV Dumbledore as well - but Dumbledore's argument sounded a bit like a caricature - what Voldemort believes Dumbledore believes. The argument was won too easily. The time-lock trap too poetically out-maneuvered.
(Granted, life isn't a story, so we shouldn't expect a rational villain to win in dramatically appropriate ways. It is still unusual.)
Hypothesis: Voldemort's CEV was to win against Dumbledore and all his future opponents, completely and utterly. With all the Deathly Hallows, the Philosopher's Stone, and Harry naked at invisible gunpoint, this is practically assured.
Now we get to see what Harry's CEV is.
u/alexanderwales [+4] Time flies like an arrow (2 hours later)
The argument was won too easily.
While I agree, I went back and read Ch 39 where Harry and Dumbledore had a very similar conversation, and I felt like it had shades of that.
u/Jace_MacLeod [+2] (3 hours later)
It definitely did. The mirror could have conceivably gotten such arguments from Voldemort's mind, though, so such resemblance is not strong evidence either way. (Damn telepathic oracles!)
EDIT: Mirror Dumbledore referencing his earlier conversation with Harry specifically - "how I laughed when I realised it! When I saw you had made a Good Voldemort to oppose the evil one - ah, how I laughed!", is fairly strong evidence that was the real Dumbledore. Could have gotten it from Harry's mind, I guess - either via shared soul shenanigans or Voldemort using undetectable Legilimency on Harry - but complexity penalty.
:(
u/dodriohedron [+1] (6 hours later)
we shouldn't expect a rational villain to win in dramatically appropriate ways
I don't think even a rational story has to be completely realistic. Eg. in reality deus ex machina are common, but in any story they're unwelcome. EY is a good writer trying to write a good story, so it's not totally ridiculous to put everything that might be going on through a 'satisfying' filter.
u/ajsdklf9df [+1] (12 hours later)
Dumbledore's argument sounded a bit like a caricature
Voldemort's attempt to be Dumbledore was also imperfect, as Harry saw in the last chapter.
And I think you are correct regarding Voldemort's CEV.
u/None [+5] (11 minutes later)
QM is now in possession of all three Deathly Hallows and The Philosopher's stone and has arranged for possibly the only two threats to him to be killed / trapped outside of time. Oh, and he has a gun too.
Meanwhile, Harry is completely disarmed and naked.
u/alexanderwales [+12] Time flies like an arrow (26 minutes later)
But he's still got his glasses!
u/Tholo [+3] (6 hours later)
Glasses are Hermione transfigured confirmed.
u/None [+6] (41 minutes later)
[deleted]
u/Jace_MacLeod [+2] (2 hours later)
Way I read it: Time Turner.
(Assuming the mirror isn't creating elaborate wish-fulfillment scenarios that may or may not be illusionary, my current best-guess.)
u/dodriohedron [+1] (6 hours later)
Ah yeah, that fits perfectly as well.
u/itisike [+1] Dragon Army (19 hours later)
My question is why Quirrell wouldn't assume that Dumbledore would use a time-turner.
u/itisike [+1] Dragon Army (19 hours later)
As someone pointed out, the nakedness was edited out.
u/JackStargazer [+4] Primordial Apologist (10 hours later)
Huh.
u/None [+3] (6 hours later)
[deleted]
u/xamueljones [+1] My arch-enemy is entropy (8 hours later)
I would believe that if this was chapter #119. By the way who do you think is more rational, Harry or Voldemort?
u/okaycat [+6] (57 minutes later)
I don't really like this chapter. The confrontation between Dumbledore and Voldemort felt rushed. Also the Dumbledore characterization was bad. It felt more like a silly caricature, something Voldemort would have imagined Dumbledore acted like rather then the real thing. I guess it's possible that the mirror is still reflecting Voldemort's fantasy of how he wants the confrontation to go.
I can;t wait for the next chapter.
u/sephlington [+10] (an hour later)
Also bear in mind that Harry couldn't seen Confunded!Dumbledore's family, but could see this. I'm calling it that not only is this the Mirror-fantasy of how Voldemort wanted this to go, but also that he really wanted Harry to see it.
u/chaosmosis [+2] and with strange aeons, even death may die (10 minutes later)
So I am sending you outside Time, to a frozen instant from which neither I nor any other can return you.
CALLED IT
Well, kinda. Close enough for bragging rights.
u/None [+3] (10 hours later)
something something The Pandorica Opens something something
SILENCE WILL FALL.
u/xamueljones [+1] My arch-enemy is entropy (8 hours later)
Sorry, but pics or it didn't happen.
In other words, did you make a post predicting this somewhere?
I actually believe you either way, but I'm curious as to how you were slightly off.
u/chaosmosis [+2] and with strange aeons, even death may die (8 hours later)
http://www.reddit.com/r/rational/comments/2wwm25/harry_potter_and_the_methods_of_rationality/cov30sc
I identified time magic as a strong potential threat to Voldemort.
u/ishaan123 [+2] Sidebar Contestant (11 hours later)
If these events really are just Riddle's CEV (Skeptical, why on earth would he want that), there might be a lesson here: If illusions from within the mirror can successfully perform the Process of the Timeless, that means the mirror is dangerous after all.
Riddle said that the Atlantis believed the mirror to be harmless. It's quite clearly not that harmless. Atlantis tried to build something really powerful. They tried to put that powerful object in a box and used the mirror to determine its volition before letting it out of the box. Then, they got removed from time. Also, this is written by the guy who came up with the AI box experiment. Coincidence?
(Which doesn't mean they are dead. There's clearly already versions of every time-turning character outside of time, thinking up all the self consistent time turner plots. Atlantis might still be pulling strings.)
u/ajuc [+2] (17 hours later)
I think the story was intended as a cheap didactic (by which I'm disappointed BTW) - Atlants tried to build Friendly AI - the mirror, but they haven't finished it before other Atlants build the non-constrained AI and it did away with them all. Reminds you of some organization perhaps ;) ?
u/eltegid [+0] (12 hours later)
I, for one, loved this chapter