42 KiB
Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality Chapter 113: Final Exam
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Author: u/rthomas2 *
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Score: 43
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Created: 2015-02-28T20:38:51
Post:
Comments:
u/ancientcampus [+23] juggling kittens (4 hours later)
"If you kill me, every ssingle person on thiss world will die, excepting you and hermione." [because I won't magically cure death, somehow, eventually]. (More of a conversational gambit to buy time)
u/Ashrand [+3] (4 hours later)
Nice, that's a possible piece to our puzzle. It only buys a little time since Voldemort's gonna ask for an explanation, but yeah.
u/ancientcampus [+10] juggling kittens (8 hours later)
Possible follow up: "Will not ssay how. Know only that eventss are already in motion that will kill every other persson on this earth, that I alone may prevent. I sspeak truth.
u/Endovior [+2] (10 hours later)
Interesting, but untrue; Voldemort has the True Horcrux, and can himself arrange to prevent arbitrary deaths. The True Patronus may be the only thing that can reverse death, but since Harry knows that Voldemort has the True Horcrux, he cannot truthfully claim that he alone can prevent death.
The fact that Voldemort is probably unwilling to implement a universal True Horcrux based resurrection system involving sacrificial babies or something in no way diminishes the fact that he could choose to do so.
u/ben_sphynx [+2] (14 hours later)
Voldemort will run out of horcrux' once everyone else is extinct; making more requires killing someone.
u/ignirtoq [+1] (17 hours later)
He has the Philosopher's Stone, though, so any body he is in is immune to aging. He can only die now by external factors, which only happen if he allows them or fails to prevent them, i.e. if he makes a stupid mistake that leads to his death. I wholly expect Voldemort to be able to last through the rest of humanity with his current body, due to this, and he could make billions more horcruxes in that time.
u/RobLoughrey [+1] (7 years later)
Infinity is a long time. Eventually the Universe is in heat death. No one really wants to be truly immortal.
u/ancientcampus [+1] juggling kittens (a day later)
Agreed. He can, though it's highly likely that he will. Hence why I very deliberately chose the word "may". I suppose technically speaking "Mr. Genius is the only one who might pass this test" is technically untrue, but no one would call you a liar for saying it - I don't think parsletongue is that nitpicky. Harry truely does not believe voldemort will set up a universal True Horcrux system or anything of the sort, so the statement isn't a lie. EY would have to settle any debate on semantics. :)
u/traverseda [+1] With dread but cautious optimism (9 hours later)
This meets all my requirements.
u/ProfessorPhi [+1] (2 days later)
Having thought about this, I feel like this whole problem is misdirection, EY has set us up to fail, we don't really have much we can do to solve the problem. We don't have the advantage of controlling Harry in the previous chapters so we can't set anything up to help us. He has a proper solution, he's been working on it for months, we can't recreate that in the matter of days, even with the number of minds on it. I still feel the evidence points to this being misdirection from him.
Your solution is the only one I've come up with and it requires that A, Harry has stolen Snape's wand and when under the invisibility cloak, he partially transfigured the floor to be antimatter (with a time delayed vacuum), killing him means that the vacuum spell gets destroyed and with it, the planet, which leaves voldemort an eternity on the golden plaques since the resurrection stone is destroyed on earth.
As killing Harry is akin to eternal solitude for LV, he knows Harry must be allowed to live. Harry doesn't want to do it, but precommits to the action in order to ensure LV doesn't kill him. It makes sense for Harry to have done something by this point, and this does not betray LV as it will amount to nothing if they part ways amicably.
u/cowsruleusall [+10] (37 minutes later)
So, Harry has his wand and absolutely nothing else, with 60 seconds before his imminent death (unless he starts sharing with Voldemort). What capabilities does he have?
- Partial transfiguration
- Command over Dementors
- Knowledge of science
- Buying time with explanations
- Patronus 2.0
- Retrospective time travel
For partial transfiguration, this takes a long time to set up, as referenced in the whole Azkaban arc. I have a hard time imagining a circumstance in which he used that 60 seconds to both stall his death AND partially transfigure something, without Voldie catching on and killing him.
There are no Dementors anywhere nearby, and I have no idea whether or not it would be possible to partially transfigure something into a Dementor.
If Harry wants to buy time to explain things, the more complicated and nonmagical the better. Explaining partial transfiguration would probably take the longest. We've already seen that Parseltongue is extremely limited in vocabulary, so to have Harry explain would probably take a very long time. Voldie could, however, just have Harry list whatever texts he used to teach himself, then kill Harry and read them himself.
As for science-y things, we've already discussed about how hard it would be to partially transfigure air into things like antimatter. As much as I'd love to see him turn the earth under his feet into antimatter specifically targeted to the area immediately underneath each Death Eater, I don't know if that's possible given the radical non-homogeneity of earth and the focus/concentration it would take to extend/make antimatter without it immediately annihilating absolutely everything nearby.
We've seen how the Patronus 2.0 can be used to restart a dead person. If Harry casts a Patronus 2.0, and Voldie tries to kill him, can Harry just have his Patronus go inside him like he did with Hermione, and keep himself alive that way? I need to think on this more.
Will continue to update this list of capabilities and ideas as I re-read, but final exams on Friday mean that I won't get to work on this as much as I want :(
u/Bobertus [+7] (2 hours later)
So, Harry has his wand and absolutely nothing else
It's not quite as bad as that. You forgot that Harry still has his glasses. That should be a big help, right? Maybe he can use the lense to set fire to lord Voldemort.
u/None [+6] (9 hours later)
Oh, he doesn't need that. Love sets people on fire.
u/Ashrand [+2] (4 hours later)
Harry has his wand and absolutely nothing else
No, he also has his pouch of items, which should be full of objects he's accumulated throughout the year.
u/None [+6] (4 hours later)
He'd have to get it, first, without being killed. Remember, he's naked except for his glasses.
u/Ashrand [+1] (4 hours later)
Oh, right. Damn.
u/E6440 [+2] (15 hours later)
I see two ways harry might play this out. First one is for Harry to convince Voldemort he needs or wants to learn partial transformation. The second one is to remind Voldemort that Dumbledore seemingly was present at two locations at once. Here it is key to suggest that the mirror might be involved as the facilitator of this and not a time turner.
The Partial Transformation Way
We would like Harry to aim for both him to explain and do a practical demonstration. If successful Harry will have bought himself some more time while he explains how partial transformation works and why it is so hard to do. Secondly by allowing Harry to show a practice Harry obtains a chance of doing magic without being killed by all of the Death Eaters surrounding him.
Now I see two things Harry could transform which could be effective. One is a ball of fusion the other a black hole. Given we do not know the exact limits of transformation this might be a stretch, yet there are a whole lot of things which points towards it being possible.
First off a fusion reaction requires a whole lot of pressure besides heat. The pressure itself can by my understanding itself ignite a fusion reaction. Now how we produce that pressure could be interesting. I don't see creating pressure from outside pressing in to the the solution. Rather manipulating gravity would probably be the best solution. Also making the field where gravity is manipulated small should make things easier power requirement wise.
Having the fusion reactions close to Voldemort would incinerate him from the heat alone or at least damage him enough to kill his body. If not the heat the radiation produced by the heat would achieve similar results.
If Harry is shielded by Voldemort he should have a chance of surviving instant death and then surviving the whole ordeal if we bet Granger wakes from being exposed to the same attack. She would not die from the attack and be able to provide Harry with some healing.
The black hole would work much like the ball of fusion as if it is created close enough to Voldemort he would be sucked in and his body would be destroyed. The same would be true for the Death Eaters. The problem with this plan is Harry would need to secure himself first which might be hard to explain.
Being able to make in practice small suns and black holes might also be enough to foreshadow how Harry could possible end the wold. Though defeating death seems like a better guess.
Now Voldemort would probably ask Harry questions to make sure of his intentions which Harry should be able to answer truthfully by being smart about it.
The whole point of the answers would be to subtly misdirect Voldemort's attention. Let us say Voldemort asks "Will you try to kill me?" just to make it as hard as possible to make a response as possible. A passable answer could be "I am not going to try and kill you with this transformation." This of course requires Harry to be able to view destroying Voldemort's body as not killing him. It would require Harry to think of Voldemort not as spirit and body unified, rather as Voldemort only being a spirit.
I will try to get back to this answer later, I have no more time to write atm :(
u/Kodix [+19] (16 minutes later)
Oh, EY. You bastard.
I had other things to do this weekend.
u/traverseda [+9] With dread but cautious optimism (55 minutes later)
How good is he at partial transfiguration that this point? The stone opens up some self-transfiguration options.
You can transfigure a duck without knowing how a duck works...
So transfigure a copy of your brain over top of voldemorts (and then get shot a bunch). Transfigure a copy into the ground? It couldn't have magic and would quickly die when your soul flees. Probably. I doubt that the solution is going to have something with such a high failure rate.
Hmm. Use it to kill everyone somehow? The answer "Transfigure everyone presents spinal fluid into francium" seems a bit silly. If the answer is "Use my magic to kill everyone" I'll be suprised, and anything that is fast enough to work in this situation would be pretty deus-ex-machina-ey.
EY has presumably already written this, and it has a lot of parrelels to the AI box experement. Evidence that the solution is going to be talking and not much else. Knowing that you're saying the truth should be considered and advantage (and truth is one of the assumption made in the AI box game).
"The air is filled with carbon nanotubes. Everyone here will die if you make the transiguration permanent, and they will die of transfiguration sickness if you don't. Only I have the power to save them, and I doubt you could learn the skill in time, presuming you did manage to convince me to teach you.".
Of course producing enough carbon nanotubes that people would die of transfiguration sickness if it wore off....
Still, not something I think would save you. Just buy some time.
u/ajuc [+14] (2 hours later)
"The air is filled with carbon nanotubes. Everyone here will die if you make the transiguration permanent, and they will die of transfiguration sickness if you don't. Only I have the power to save them, and I doubt you could learn the skill in time, presuming you did manage to convince me to teach you.".
Blackmail won't work - Voldemort has backup, Hermione is invulnurable, and everybody else are expandable.
u/ancientcampus [+2] juggling kittens (7 hours later)
transfigure a copy of your brain over top of voldemorts
holy s***
u/Endovior [+5] (10 hours later)
That would be an interaction between Harry's magic and Voldemort. Causing such an interaction might be worth trying, but not until after the Death Eaters have been dealt with.
u/None [+1] (a day later)
Actually, the Priori Incantatem effect could be worth invoking deliberately.
u/Empiricist_or_not [+1] Aspiring polite Hegemonizing swarm (8 hours later)
^ I like this. Very Theseus.
u/Kawoomba [+1] (11 hours later)
'Twas my second thought, rejected it because the deatheaters would notice the resonance and shoot Harry.
u/alexanderwales [+8] Time flies like an arrow (4 hours later)
Planning Thread on /r/HPMOR which should hopefully act as a clearinghouse for trying to solve the problem.
u/Geminii27 [+16] (9 hours later)
I'm surprised that no-one has spotted the Chekov's Gunman.
Harry is focused on Voldemort. Everyone else is focused on Harry.
Who is focused on Hermione?
Oh, wait, I'm sorry, let me rephrase that.
Who is making sure that the immortal, self-healing, unicorn-and-troll-powered, horcrux-having, extremely smart, Death-Eaters-have-been-commanded-not-to-harm-or-hinder-her Hermione has stayed asleep through all the posturing and hissing and Crucio-screaming?
Come to think of it, I wonder where Hermione's original wand might possibly be at this moment, hint hint disguised as something expected to have an enchantment on it, hint hint.
u/BSaito [+1] (11 hours later)
Enervate to wake Hermione, and then count on her surviving and using the ritual instructions to revive Harry when Voldemort and the Death Eaters most likely immediately thoroughly murder him in response?
It's a gamble, there's no guarantee that Hermione will succeed in accomplishing anything before being restrained and the odds are in fact against her (not as badly as they are against Harry, but still), but I certainly don't have a better plan. It's even possible that Voldemort will hold off on murdering Harry at least while he figures out the implications for the prophecy (such as the possibility that the revived Hermione is the prophesied one instead of Harry, and murdering Harry in front of her will cause the prophecy to come true), which gives time to implement other plans as well.
u/Vwyx [+2] (2 days later)
Moves wand to Hermione, insta-dies.
We'd need a distraction.
u/None [+1] (a day later)
Who is making sure that the immortal, self-healing, unicorn-and-troll-powered, horcrux-having, extremely smart, Death-Eaters-have-been-commanded-not-to-harm-or-hinder-her Hermione has stayed asleep through all the posturing and hissing and Crucio-screaming?
Also, she may well be wielding sufficient alicorn magic at this point to just start tossing stellar bodies at anyone who pisses her off.
u/okaycat [+12] (20 minutes later)
I think that Voldemort is actually intending to kill Harry. This isn't just one of his deeper schemes to let Harry escape and fake is defeat etc. I think he's intending on extracting as many secrets as he can from Harry and killing him. He's too afraid that Harry will fulfill the prophecy and destroy the world.
Harry will have to use partial transfiguration in order to escape. Maybe he can transfigure carbon nanotubes threads or something from the air and impale stab everyone in the brain or something.
Can't wait for the next chapter!
u/Jace_MacLeod [+16] (50 minutes later)
I think that Voldemort is actually intending to kill Harry.
You think?!
u/alexanderwales [+30] Time flies like an arrow (57 minutes later)
There have been some subtle hints to that effect. You have to really read between the lines though.
u/Empiricist_or_not [+1] Aspiring polite Hegemonizing swarm (8 hours later)
Then why has Voldemort protected Hermione, in perpetuity, if he is seen to be defeated today?
u/BSaito [+6] (11 hours later)
Same reason he forced Harry to take the Unbreakable Vow. He's trying to be absolutely sure his efforts don't backfire and result in the prophecy he heard coming true.
u/CeruleanTresses [+3] (11 hours later)
As a failsafe.
u/renegadeduck [+6] picky but enthusiastic (4 hours later)
It seems most likely that Voldemort wishes to kill him in the next minute.
However.
Why does Harry still have his wand? Why are his things not protected by the death eaters from accio?
It would be trivial for Voldemort to order one of his followers to take Harry's wand and glasses, to protect this things, and perhaps even to add other magical protections.
I dislike feeling that Voldemort has made stupid mistakes.
u/Empiricist_or_not [+2] Aspiring polite Hegemonizing swarm (8 hours later)
This is LV testing Harry, I think.
u/xamueljones [+2] My arch-enemy is entropy (19 hours later)
I think Voldemort is being cautious of magical resonance which is why he doesn't try casting any spell on Harry. But he might be so cautious that he is worried about the Death Eaters' Dark Mark qualifying as magical resonance if any Death Eater touches Harry. Of course this doesn't explain away him not ordering Harry to throw away his wand or be shot.
u/renegadeduck [+1] picky but enthusiastic (21 hours later)
Snape has interacted with Harry. It seems highly unlikely that there would be a magical resonance effect with the death eaters.
u/xamueljones [+2] My arch-enemy is entropy (21 hours later)
Well then my best guess is that Voldemort is expecting to have Harry cast a spell to demonstrate his secrets and doesn't want to spend the time on passing the wand back and forth. Or he doesn't want to chance Harry raising his hand or doing anything while slightly distracted by moving Death Eaters.
Although this is all still insanely OOC for Voldemort.
Do you mind taking a look at my hypothesis on Voldemort's Horcrux spells at http://www.reddit.com/r/HPMOR/comments/2xibdr/spoilers_ch_113_clarifying_mechanics/cp0uso2? Thanks!
u/Chronophilia [+1] sci-fi ≠ futurology (19 hours later)
He had his wand until ten seconds ago because he needed to be holding it to take the Unbreakable Vow.
He still has it because it's easier to kill him immediately than to have one of the Death Eaters take his wand away.
u/renegadeduck [+2] picky but enthusiastic (21 hours later)
Easier in a trivial sense, yes. But Voldemort is being highly conservative, as is appropriate given the prophecy he heard.
Suppose there was a unexpected interruption — Harry is just an accio away from his time turner. Voldemort knows Harry has a power Voldemort isn't aware of (by the first prophecy). Voldemort knows Harry is fated to destroy the world. Why would he give him even the slightest chance?
Naturally, this is an argument for not quizzing Harry and for killing him immediately, too.
u/Chronophilia [+2] sci-fi ≠ futurology (21 hours later)
Well, what I think is really going on is that Voldemort is making a mistake: He hasn't updated his beliefs. He knows Harry needs to have his wand because he needs it to take the Vow, and he hasn't noticed yet that the justification no longer applies.
This is exactly the same problem Harry had with not telling Dumbledore about his sense of doom, and that was acknowledged and explained in the text, so it's a character trait that Tom Riddle is established as having.
If I'm right, this is a genuine mistake on Quirrel's part, which means it might be very useful in solving the puzzle even if we don't yet know how.
u/okaycat [+3] (an hour later)
shrugs It has been pretty obvious for a while now that Voldemort has given up on Harry becoming a partner in his plans. There are too many philosophical differences between the two of them.
It's just hard predicting what Voldemort really wants because he's so good at misdirection.
u/None [+10] (27 minutes later)
If Harry hasn't shown Quirrelmort the nature of partial transfiguration yet then that is certainly a good opener. At the very least due to its complex nature it'll take time to explain, especially if he originally answers in Parseltongue which seems to have a lot of syntactic constraints.
The question is does he just use that to buy time or does the partial transfiguration itself have the potential to serve as an immediate offensive measure against 36 death eaters and QM? Maybe he could transfigure something into antimatter, but then the question is how does he escape the ensuing blast?
u/Magnap [+2] (15 hours later)
Quirrelmort is no more...
u/SometimesATroll [+4] (4 hours later)
He can't transfigure air. He can transfigure his own leg, though, since his wand tip should be resting by his leg.
u/None [+1] (7 hours later)
Does Harry know how to make port keys? Could he somehow transfigure his leg into a port key and gtfo of there?
u/SometimesATroll [+1] (15 hours later)
As far as I know, no. Port keys are way above him in skill. Also, there are certainly port key wards out.
u/Empiricist_or_not [+1] Aspiring polite Hegemonizing swarm (8 hours later)
I think the real question is How fast is partial transfiguration, assuming thumbnail, or leg hair/skin and will it be a weapon, or trigger his time turner?
u/SometimesATroll [+1] (15 hours later)
I'm pretty sure it depends on the size of the object. 1 nanometer width carbon nanotubes are going to have a volume of less than 1 cubic milimeter even if the tube is 1 kilometer in length. He could make it into a bunch of nanotubes that terminate in each deatheater's head before branching out to destroy as much as possible.
u/t3tsubo [+1] (22 hours later)
He couldn't transfigure air BEFORE he learned partial transfiguration - it's unclear if that gave him the ability to transfigure air although conceptually he should be able to now.
u/SometimesATroll [+1] (22 hours later)
It would still count as a new ability, since he hasn't demonstrated it. New abilities are against the rules. Give him a few minutes to think about it when this is all over and maybe he'll figure it out.
u/MyNegromancer [+7] (24 minutes later)
The only thing I can think of is Harry explaining the dementors trick while buying time to transfigure the air in everyone's ears present to lava to (relatively) instantly kill them. Then again, Harry's morality sorta prevents that. Then again again, do we have to factor in Harry's moral code?
u/TastyBrainMeats [+21] (2 hours later)
He's abandoned the Code of Batman at this point. People have died.
u/ancientcampus [+1] juggling kittens (4 hours later)
Heeey, that's a good one! Partial transfiguration using the air! That's... almost God Mode right there.
u/None [+1] (a day later)
Air? It's ear wax.
u/ketura [+4] Organizer (2 hours later)
See, here's the thing. Why on earth would he first go through all the trouble of resurrecting Hermione, upgrading her body to insane levels, and creating a horcrux if he's just going to kill him? Why explain his lore and his plans? Why even give him a chance to talk?
As much as this entire scenario is Mr. Yudkowsky's handiwork in trying to force us into a situation with so many restraints we can only collaborate to think our way out, I think too that that's the motive of Voldemort himself, to force Harry into a spot where he really has to prove himself as V's equal.
u/callmebrotherg [+16] now posting as /u/callmesalticidae (3 hours later)
Voldemort is going step by step. "What do I do if Harry can't be killed? Now, what do I do if that doesn't work?" and on and on. Basically, taking out the least-resistant wheels from under the prophecy and moving in from there.
u/ancientcampus [+6] juggling kittens (an hour later)
"Exhaustive list of Harry's Abilities" thread - let's try to list every spell, skill, trick, and option he has available to him. Put items of dubious usefulness together if you like, but if one sounds particularly good, feel free to list it separately.
u/ancientcampus [+5] juggling kittens (an hour later)
Innervate [on Hermione?]
Somnium
Prismatic Wall
Stunning hex
Sonorus
Quietus
Fridgidiero
Ooogety Boogety (bat-summoning spell)
u/torac [+3] (14 hours later)
Ooogety Boogety (bat-summoning spell)
If they count as living they might be used to soak up spells including avada kedavra.
u/narfanator [+7] (an hour later)
As demonstrated through Partial Configuration, some magic (notable, the only form on wordless magic Harry has seen the "inside" of) functions with "consensus reality" effects. That is, by changing his mind about what reality is, Harry was able to do something new.
This demonstrates one Harry ability, and one Nature of Reality:
- Harry can change his consensus reality effects
- Consensus reality matters
Given that we also have a stack of evidence that there is a poor correspondence between even brains and self, I'm thinking it's worth exploring Consensus Reality rules that, if discarded, open up possibilities.
u/ancientcampus [+1] juggling kittens (a day later)
"You can only transfigure things touching your wand". I think we can safely throw that one out.
u/Happymuffn [+3] (2 hours later)
Patronus Charm: blocks killing curse, communication, blinds dementors, potentially can blind those looking at it.
u/ajuc [+3] (2 hours later)
Also apparently it can resurect.
u/Happymuffn [+3] (2 hours later)
Light spell, levitation, partial transfiguration (silent)(motionless), unlocking spell, first year shield spells, ventriloquism spell, memory charm (all memories including subject's left arm), create water, dispel magic (up to power = to Harry's own), dispel own magic (silent)(motionless), occlumency (silent)(motionless), warming spell, shield breaking spell (first year), random spells from a book of pranks
u/Magnap [+2] (15 hours later)
You forgot memory charm (all subject's memories including the color blue).
u/ancientcampus [+2] juggling kittens (an hour later)
Prismatic Sphere
u/torac [+2] (3 hours later)
Throwing it out here too: Harry can command Dementors.
Their abilities are not known, but their limits might just be what people expect their limits to be. They have no sensory organs, so there is no obvious reason for their sensory range to be limited. They have no obvious mode of locomotion, so who’s to say they can teleport or travel at light speed?
u/Magnap [+1] (15 hours later)
They might not have to teleport. Death is everywhere, all the time. There even more so.
u/Happymuffn [+2] (3 hours later)
items: bag of holding (presumably, with any reasonably sized objects that Harry could reasonably get his hands on, within reach), time turner, invisibility cloak (didn't hide from Quirrel), mechanical watch, Quirrel's corpse, random magic rings (from Quirrel's corpse)
u/ancientcampus [+1] juggling kittens (4 hours later)
Taking the idea by okaycat and MyNegromancer: Partial Transfiguration using the air. There's a lot that can be done, there.
u/gryfft [+2] (19 hours later)
Alas, he's tried it until blue in the face in chapter 28 to no avail.
u/ancientcampus [+1] juggling kittens (a day later)
Good to know, thanks. Drat, that knocks out most of my plans. He still had that one moment touching the death eater's wand- could get some raw materials that way. Carbon nanotubes could then link him to anything else.
u/DerSaidin [+5] (3 hours later)
Exam requirement: "evade immediate death"
Solution: start describing partial transfiguration (or whatever) at about 50 seconds; take longer than 10 seconds
Also wouldn't hurt for the question to explicitly note Voldemort will continue to be rational, and cautious.
u/ben_sphynx [+5] (3 hours later)
Harry is pointing his wand at the ground. Or possibly at the whole world.
Is partial transfiguration limited by volume?
u/Solonarv [+2] Chaos Legion (3 hours later)
Limited? Not that we know of. But transfiguration takes longer on big things, and this is also true of partial transfiguration.
u/ancientcampus [+2] juggling kittens (3 hours later)
Oooh, nice one! As far as I've seen - yes it is, but his volume can be atomically thin. Back in the prison experiment, it took him a while to transfigure a very thin slice of azkaban's wall into oil, so I don't think he could split the world in half in 60 seconds.
u/Endovior [+2] (10 hours later)
Even if he could (dubious due to gravity!), he's magically prevented from doing so; he literally just swore an Unbreakable Vow to not destroy the world.
u/ancientcampus [+1] juggling kittens (a day later)
Oh gravity, getting in the way of my fun once again.
u/Adjal [+1] (11 hours later)
His wand needs to be touching whatever he's transfiguring.
u/ancientcampus [+2] juggling kittens (a day later)
I actually wonder about that. As far as anyone thinks, yes, that's true, but Harry has already proven that "parts and wholes" are entirely irrelevant with the right frame of mind - we just know that the effect needs to propagate from his wand. The effect could propagate through the air first, if he wanted.
u/aeschenkarnos [+3] (3 hours later)
Magic may be frame-of-reference dependent. I'm not a copy of you; you're a copy of me. Which of us has a better grip on reality?
u/None [+3] (4 hours later)
I think we need to approach the solution as being a power Voldemort cannot know. Science isn't that, not even the whole "true perspective on the Universe" thing, because Voldemort could know that eventually.
The most likely:
- Love
- Utter refusal of death
Any other possibilities?
u/BSaito [+3] (12 hours later)
Possible weapon against Voldemort: Obliviate. Obliviate everything.
He's taken great pains to protect himself against death, but we may be able to erase everything he is and destroy the villain without killing him.
Of course, we need to get ourselves in a position where we can both do so and still come out of this situation alive.
u/Farmerbob1 [+3] Level 1 author (19 hours later)
After a moment of panic, it struck me. Carefully phrasing my words in Parseltongue, I asked a question. "What happens, Tom Riddle, when another Tom Riddle dies, enters the Horcrux network, and the dead Tom Riddle happens to be able to both control Dementors and cast an advanced form of Patronus that does not require a wand?"
I paused. "If you kill me, I win. If you don't kill me, you will eventually lose. You have been very careful to provide a bribe to me to let you live, so the threat of killing me is clearly misdirection. You know you cannot kill me without me destroying your Horcrux network, and you have provided me with a living Hermione to keep me attached to life."
"However, now I am at a strange point. It makes a great deal of sense that I should kill myself now, and use the Patronus casting to consume the life energy within the Horcrux network until there is only one Horcrux left, and then get assistance in raising myself. I could do that easily enough with a Patronus."
"Perhaps, you might do something for me to prevent me from killing myself so I can end your threat? Confund yourself to learn to care about people. Then use the Philosopher's stone to make it permanent, and finally, vow to never attempt to alter the Confunding."
EDIT ADD - I already used my response to the chapter over at Fanfiction.net for a different suggestion. If this seems plausible to someone, feel free to take it, make it yours, and post it over there if you like.
u/ajuc [+6] (an hour later)
Start talking about partial transfiguration to buy time (quantum mechaniscs 101 included if needed), in the meantime transfigure air some place nearby into compressed sphere of CO. When ready talk like you're searching for words, take a big breath, release the compression.
Hermione should survive.
u/Happymuffn [+3] (an hour later)
Harry hasn't been able to transfigure fluids that we know of including air. Granted the only time we've seen him try was back at the start of the year but I don't think we should rely on that. I also don't think transfiguration allows one to hold gases in compression without some solid shell also being transfigured around it.
u/kaukamieli [+1] (2 hours later)
Snake tongue thingy might not be expressive enough for quantum things, though. Maybe he can get permission for human speech for that?
u/narfanator [+2] (an hour later)
I think a big question here is "what kinds of magic, if any, are available?". Answer might be "none". Partial transfig takes too long, everything else requires motion.
That seems to leave to possibilities:
- Realizations that allow for re-access to magic
- Talking your way out of it
In other words, no known magic is useful in this situation.
Does that seem reasonable? Does anyone remember a form of magic that doesn't require motion or time?
u/ancientcampus [+2] juggling kittens (8 hours later)
"Destination, Determination, Deliberation!"
He's never apparated before, but I'm sure he's read how. There's no stated magical requirements, just danger of splinching, and that can be treated medically, to say nothing of the sorcerer's stone on hand.
u/Endovior [+3] (10 hours later)
Good idea, but...
Harry cannot develop any new magical powers or transcend previously stated constraints on them in the next sixty seconds.
Has he been shown to have read something about Apparition? In particular, those words? If so, that's a feasible plan, and might be attempted... but I can't recall any such incident, and thus doubt the possibility.
That said, the fact that the Death Eaters Apparated in does not imply that there is no Anti-Disapparition Jinx in effect. Even though Harry is not known to be able to Apparate, it's the kind of thing that'd be a sensible precaution for Voldemort to have put in place.
It'd be better than dying, but it'd be unwise for Harry to spend his minute trying to figure out Apparition from mere reference to the process. It's not a terrible plan, particularly since he could go straight for his Time Turner if it worked, but there are probably better ones.
u/ancientcampus [+1] juggling kittens (a day later)
Truth
u/Adjal [+2] (12 hours later)
[Posing of solution]
Tell that prophecy of destroying Dark Lord is foretelling that he shall overcome death.
Tell that he wants to hear apocalyptic prophesy because it may hint at other knowledge he has that can prevent destruction of world. Upon hearing it, reveal that "tearing the very stars in the heavens" is referring to start rending.
Step 3: ****
Step 4: profit!
u/nakedriver [+1] (2 hours later)
Does anyone remember if Harry was told about the magic that protected him in canon and if that still applies to this fic?
I would also point out that any use of the Patronus to block a killing curse would likely be useless, as Voldy would simply hit him with a stunner or shoot him.
Edit: Death Eaters also tasked with a variety of actions in response to Harry trying anything.
u/Solonarv [+3] Chaos Legion (3 hours later)
Given what Voldemort revealed about the night at Godric's Hollow, that seems very unlikely.
u/paladinneph [+1] (16 hours later)
how do you do the impossible? by knowing why it's impossible, then making one or more of those parameters untrue.
escape is impossible because we cannot travel the distance required anywhere near as quickly as our captors (note: I say "our" as we, collectively are taking the roles of voices in harry's head, like the much-used griffindor, ravenclaw, slitheren, etc.)
negotiation is impossible because the opponent is smarter than us, and believes we are a credible existential threat
combat is impossible because we are outmanned, outgunned, and in the case of quirrel (he'll always be quirrel to us) outskilled.
also, why are we naked? it makes no sense for us to be naked. if you're going to give us a wand, give us some pants! -shakes fist-
possible attack vectors:
make quirrel less intelligent. a whispered confundus seems almost mandatory for any solution, as a more intelligent opponent would think of anything we could think of, and counter it. possibly purposely botched memory charm?
make ourselves seem like a non-credible threat
make ourselves seem like not a threat.
incapacitate riddle, use new intelligence advantage to fight remaining deatheaters.
gain speed advantage for escape? rocket broom again? tough to fight apparation...
I think obliviation is our best bet. let's take a moment to talk about it- it's been mentioned as possibly the most overpowered spell several times over the course of the series. exactly what limits does it have? could we, say, give quirrel false memories of the prophesy he heard? alter his memories enough to fundamentally change his personality? turn him against his own deatheaters?
u/ancientcampus [+1] juggling kittens (a day later)
Alright here's my best go at a plan:
tl;dr: it's partial transfiguration, stall with diplomacy through talking about dyson spheres, activate hermione, and various contingencies if the above fail.
Stall tactic 0: can begin this plan even as the very long oath-swearing was taking place
Stall tactic 1: Don't even use up all the 60 seconds; shouldn't be necessary, and don't want to make voldemort suspicious.
Stall/Diplomacy tactic 2: there iss a threat to thiss world that will ssomeday kill every sentient being in the universe, and you and hermione will not be sspared. I wissh to tell you of it, and my planss to avert it.
Stall tactic 3: I need to conssult with Hermione before I give dangerouss information to immortal Dark Lord. (If Voldie is skeptical, warn him that Harry has no idea what the apocalypse is, and so caution is still necessary)
PLAN HERMIONE: Get her awake and informed as much as possible.
Stall/Diplomacy tactic 4: tell of his prophecy from firenze that he'd cause all the stars to disappear and he'd be innocent, then tell one possible explanation - how it's been his ambition to spread across the galaxy building dyson spheres
Stall tactic 5 (should be unnessary): give secrets if necessary. Dementors, muggle sciences, threat of AI, threat of bioterrorism, order of the phoenix, secrets about hogwarts.
.
While we've been stalling: partial transfiguration of any sort of channel down his leg or down Mr Grim's wand and body etc, underground, underneath every Death Eater and underneath voldemort. Tip it with a large quantity of C4. Make sure it's on a hair trigger he'd just need to release.
.
PLAN A: please let's all be buddy buddy and fight off death together.
PLAN THREAT: Prophessy suggessts I will ssucceed. There iss no guarantee you will be around for it. Do you want to live in thiss world, or not? [On second thought, skip plan threat. Too risky. Go straight to Plan B.]
PLAN B: BOOM.
PLAN C: Stuporfy vs voldemort. He can't block it anyways, and a dodge might not work.
PLAN D: "Destination, Determination, Deliberation!" He's never apparated before, and it's crazy dangerous, but there's nothing saying it's outside his magical capacities. We haven't seen him read how, but the three Ds have to be the wizarding equivalent of "gas pedal to go, break pedal to stop". GTFO.
PLAN HERMIONE. She's smart, powered-up, and has had several minutes by now to adjust and plan on her own.
PLAN F: antimatter. Rocks fall, everybody dies. Hermione, Voldemort, and maybe Harry if he's lucky (as another Tom Riddle) respawn, regroup at a severe disadvantage.
u/lsparrish [+1] (a day later)
Would it be possible to transfigure a long shaft of molten rock (or some other fluid) down to the magma layer, and thus trigger a volcanic eruption? Not sure what the distance/size limits on transfiguration are.