14 KiB
Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality Chapter 116: Aftermath, Something to Protect, Pt 0
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Author: u/Endovior *
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URL: https://www.fanfiction.net/s/5782108/116/Harry-Potter-and-the-Methods-of-Rationality
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Score: 30
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Created: 2015-03-04T20:35:30
Post:
Comments:
u/Tholo [+10] (7 hours later)
I am pretty convinced this is intentionally over the top. The truth is too convoluted, and too dangerous for public consumption- I think Harry knows perfectly well that the inner circle is going to question him, and he will have to explain things, but I think he is creating the public facing myth- he knows that this event is going down in history no matter what, and he has already seen how the stories get out of control, he is simply laying the foundation for the best public outcome.
u/None [+6] (8 hours later)
Now I'm wondering if deliberate gimcrackery is normal for their world's historians and historiographers.
Oy gevalt.
u/kaukamieli [+1] (11 hours later)
If they DARE to question him. He beat V, who won D. He also killed like thirty dark wizards at the same time. I'd bet Moody would be afraid of him.
Actually, couldn't Moody just time turn back and see with his eye what happened?
u/Tholo [+2] (14 hours later)
I don't think so- in order to create a stable loop, he would have to do so undetected, and I am not sure that is possible with 37 death eaters and LV on alert.
u/kaukamieli [+1] (16 hours later)
Well, I thought it could see pretty much anything anywhere, but apparently not. But it looks like it still has zooming capabilities and sees through Harry's cloak at least, so probably also through most privacy charms. Should not be too hard I think.
u/LordSwedish [+1] Q Continuum (22 hours later)
Theres apecial spell to reveal the true cloak of invisibility so I'm fairly sure there is one to hide from the left eye of Vance or at least reveal if you are bing observed by it.
u/Zephyr1011 [+1] Potentially Unfriendly Aspiring Divinity (a day later)
That spell seemed to just detect powerful artifacts. Which would presumably work for the eye of vance too. Spells to defend against it seem a bit much though, since artifacts, especially specialised ones, are supposed to be extremely powerful, well beyond spells
u/LordSwedish [+1] Q Continuum (a day later)
Well the eye of vance is never described as being specialised to see things without being detected and I highly doubt that voldemort wouldn't have some spell that let him know (even if he can't obscure himself) if he was being observed by a very specific magical artefact wielded by one of the most dangerous men in Britain who would actively hunt him.
The alternative is that Moody just needs to be able to be within zoom range (from any direction since he can see through solid objects) of whatever he wants to know If this i the case he must go on frequent strolls through the ministry and just casually finding out every state secret and basically anything else he wants to know....which is silly.
u/Lord_Denton [+1] (2 days later)
Moody would not let him keep his wand if he decided to question him after that. He wouldn't even ask him to drop it. Accio, expeliarmus, whatever. Stun him. Paralyse him. Shit, now that I think of it, there is no way Harry can convince him he is not a danger.
u/kaukamieli [+1] (2 days later)
I don't think so. Harry did nothing wrong. He is not a dark wizard. In fact, if Moody saw him killing a herd of death eaters and Voldie, why would he attack Harry?
Moody doesn't work on the premise of "let's destroy everyone too powerful".
u/alexanderwales [+15] Time flies like an arrow (2 hours later)
I am worried that he's going to get away with this conspiracy scheme. I mean, come on:
Once you tell a lie, the truth is your enemy; and every truth connected to that truth, and every ally of truth in general; all of these you must oppose, to protect the lie. Whether you're lying to others, or to yourself.
If you'll lie when the fate of the world is at stake, and others can guess that fact about you, then, at the moment when the fate of the world is at stake, that's the moment when your words become the whistling of the wind.
But there are only five chapters left, so I have no idea how this new plot is going to be resolved unless Harry gets away with it. How the hell could anyone trust him after telling such an enormous lie like that?
u/JackStargazer [+15] Primordial Apologist (3 hours later)
Once you tell a lie, the truth is your enemy
True, but in this case he doesn't have much of a choice.
He just discovered that he is Voldemort's eigenself. Then he took the Stone, which it turns out combined with the True Patronus Charm is a resurrection device. Then he killed many Death Eaters, many of whom were very politically connected, and erased and transmuted Voldemort to bypass his defences.
In addition, he lost his greatest and most powerful political ally in the process. Possibly both of them if Malfoy finds out Harry killed his father.
That is not information that is conducive to him living a long and/or happy life in any way shape or form if it gets out to the generally irrational and still-much-more-powerful than him rest of the world.
u/callmebrotherg [+2] now posting as /u/callmesalticidae (9 hours later)
Eigenself?
Sorry, Google isn't turning anything up. Wiktionary gives "own" or "self" as possible meanings and I think I'm getting the idea from there (and context), but it's a better idea to just ask like somebody who's been living under a rock.
u/CeruleanTresses [+4] (9 hours later)
It basically means a copy of yourself that splits off at a given point in your existence and then goes on to do its own thing. It shows up a lot in Accelerando.
u/PeridexisErrant [+4] put aside fear for courage, and death for life (13 hours later)
When most people say "clone", they're thinking "eigenself", not "identical twin".
This sometimes gets silly, with eg. Naruto's 'shadow clone' technique.
u/JackStargazer [+1] Primordial Apologist (23 hours later)
Yes, actually Naruto's Shadow Clones in Waves Arisen are a perfect example of Eigenselves.
u/JackStargazer [+3] Primordial Apologist (9 hours later)
It's a term from some science fiction stories, most notably to me Accellerando by Charles Stross.
An eigenself is another person who, at one point, was either a copy of your mind-state or branched off for the same original mind as you did. In some stories it also covers people who are from different Everett branches (alternate reality selves) but I use it here in the first definition.
Eigenselves will retain the memories of their progenitor, and likely most of their morals, but will have different life experiences and so can still change significantly.
u/RandomDamage [+2] (17 hours later)
I believe it is a neologism referencing eigenvectors: http://math.mit.edu/~gs/linearalgebra/ila0601.pdf
u/EliAndrewC [+6] (3 hours later)
In this universe, he can reasonably decide to tell someone only after they become a perfect Occlumens. He can even tell them beforehand, "Hermoine, there are some things I haven't told you, and I can only tell them to you after you become a perfect Occlumens."
I'm not saying it won't damage trust and all that other stuff, but in this world/society, if someone tells you that kind of secret AFTER you become a perfect Occlumens then it seems like it would be easier to forgive them lying to you until that point, especially if you warned them that there were secrets you'd been keeping from them.
u/kaukamieli [+9] (4 hours later)
He can also say the secret is related to the incident, but he can't say how, because it's a huge magical secret, which is true in many ways.
u/PeridexisErrant [+9] put aside fear for courage, and death for life (13 hours later)
"I refuse to share information relating to Atlantean artefacts or covered by the Interdict of Merlin. Multiple prophecies and an unbreakable vow are involved."
That should do it...
u/None [+8] (15 hours later)
There was a lot made of how all wizards seem to know, even if only Quirrell seemed to always remember, that if a wizard firmly tells you you can't know something magical (e.g. how come your patronus killed that dementor) you don't push.
It'd be interesting to see how that balances out with grave yard full of headless corpses, a resurrected student and a forgetful Voldemort.
u/Kuratius [+1] (a day later)
I didn't know that Her(m)oine is aready such a popular name variant.
u/MoralRelativity [+3] (3 hours later)
Harry's effectively saying "I wasn't involved" but Dumbledore is going to be able to contradict that when (if?) he gets back.
u/None [+3] (15 hours later)
I suppose it wouldn't be beyond Voldemort to have a minion polyjuiced as Harry Potter on hand as leverage in case Dumbledore managed to interfere. He can probably at least get reasonable doubt with that given that he was sitting under a widely discussed banner at the Quidditch match with everyone else the whole time. As long Dumbledore takes more than a Time Turner resetting day to get out of the mirror any evidence to the contrary might be gone.
u/alexanderwales [+2] Time flies like an arrow (18 hours later)
The bigger issue is explaining how the Cloak of True Invisibility went from being in Harry's possession, to Voldemort's possession, back to Harry's possession. Because if Harry were telling the truth, and Dumbledore saw what he saw, then you would expect the Cloak to be at the crime scene, which it isn't.
u/None [+3] (18 hours later)
Ah, yeah, good point. That might be the one piece of physical evidence that turns it from "Dumbledore knows what he saw" to "and he can prove it".
u/Farmerbob1 [+1] Level 1 author (4 hours later)
Perhaps he has already modified his own memories of the event, and made the memories permanent with the stone. With several layers of permanent adjustments to his memory, even if someone were able to see through some of the false memories, all they would see under that is what he wants them to see.
He may, in fact, want to MAKE himself untrustworthy-seeming to a substantial part of the community, so he doesn't have to worry about being given too much power in the community.
u/kaukamieli [+2] (16 hours later)
It's stone of permanent transfiguration. Not stone of permanent spells. Harry did not physically transfigure his brains to know certain stuff, and he would not have the skills to. Also, memory magic is permanent as far as I know. Otherwise people could just wait until obliviate wears off or just dispel it.
u/Farmerbob1 [+2] Level 1 author (17 hours later)
You could certainly be right. I'm definitely no expert on magic in Harry Potter's universe. HPMOR does seem to play with some of the definitions of magic though, based on Harry's interactions with other wizards.
u/RandomDamage [+6] (57 minutes later)
Not the best way to play it, McGonnagal might get to wondering how he's aware of some of these things. Especially when she is able to discover them herself and he doesn't need to reveal them.
u/JackStargazer [+8] Primordial Apologist (an hour later)
That's only if you assume that McGonnagal can step outside what she expects and notice that she is confused.
I don't think she will. Harry appears genuine here, she was never privy to all the information about his scar, and Dumbledore is not around to contradict him or inform her.
u/RandomDamage [+3] (2 hours later)
Forced status changes have an amazing ability to jar people from their mental boxes. My guess is that something he said here triggers her suspicions and that is how things go "not exactly to plan".
u/None [+2] (16 hours later)
The idea that HPMOR Harry Potter's most important plan fails because he's too clever about it, the theme of overly complicated plans only working in plays has come before after all, would be an interesting way to wrap up the story.
u/NoahTheDuke [+4] Mouse Army (8 hours later)
She upgraded to PC after Hermione's death. She knows.
u/kaukamieli [+1] (a day later)
Does not really matter. What would happen if someone would say "I don't believe you!"?
"I don't believe you! I think YOU killed Voldemort and 30 death eaters at the same time and probably also made Hermione immortal and resurrected her and are pretty much most powerful wizard in centuries and... Yeaa I believe you, don't kill me please."
Anyone who will not believe him, would be damn smart to pretend to lose.
u/RandomDamage [+1] (a day later)
Good point, but if it spills in a credible fashion too soon he could be inconvenienced in further studies (to put it mildly).
The whole Dumbledore thing could have been him deliberately tipping McGonnagal off as well. He did have at least an hour to work on this part of the plan.
u/kaukamieli [+1] (a day later)
If he becomes really inconvenienced, he could just transform his body to someone completely different and move abroad and make science in silence.
u/RandomDamage [+1] (a day later)
He does seem to value his social connections, though, and not just Hermione.
It would be a real cost for him that I would expect him to try to avoid.
u/Lord_Denton [+1] (20 hours later)
The problem is Draco. If he could deduce that Sprout was mind controled, then he can deduce that Harry's story is not true. What will Harry say to him?
u/kaukamieli [+1] (a day later)
If he deduces Harry's story is not true, he probably would be terrified and swear eternal loyalty.