24 KiB
[BST] What kind of world would this magic system produce? Wat would you, personally, do with it?
-
Author: u/MugaSofer *
-
URL: https://www.reddit.com/r/rational/comments/3df95i/bst_what_kind_of_world_would_this_magic_system/
-
Score: 7
-
Created: 2015-07-15T20:26:39
Post:
[EDIT: argh, what would you do with it?]
Medieval-eque tech level, but with widespread crystal-based magic items.
- Self-contained fireball spells, a bit worse than modern-era guns and bombs in terms of aim, firepower etc.
- Magical blades capable of cutting through most materials on a solid hit.
- Teleport spells capable of zapping a vehicle moving above a certain speed (relative to the Earth, lower speeds are harder to pull off) to an empty area roughly near a specified location anywhere in the world.
- Magical Uploads, which can be copied and "reset" fairly easily by anyone in physical contact with them. Uploads can control other magic items they are in contact with, and project basic illusions (not sophisticated enough to fool human eyes, but enough to communicate.)
- "Golem" limbs and body-parts, based on a human or animal model.
Magic items will run essentially forever, although they're not self-repairing (unless you build in an upload who knows how to repair them.) They don't require any kind of power, thermodynamics be damned.
There is another kind of magic; bloodline magic, which is hereditary and fairly broken (mind control, telekenesis, mind-reading, precognition, self-focused biokenesis, and increased aptitude with crystal magic.) But it severely increases susceptibility to mental illness, to the point where it's extremely rare beyond a level so low that it could be mistaken for luck/skill. Bloodline magic is not passed on to any uploads you create, and there is no known way to induce it beyond selective breeding.
In addition, there is a well-known and widespread (albeit mildly expensive) plant poultice capable of curing most injuries and diseases, although it cannot regrow amputated or sufficiently damaged body parts.
Comments:
u/None [+14] (4 hours later)
They don't require any kind of power, thermodynamics be damned.
The creation of magical perpetual motion machines is energetically favored, and there is a half-life-per-cubic-centimeter rate at which space spontaneously becomes transformed into magical suns. Once created, they release energy into the regions around them which, while subject to the inverse square law, still provide energy to use to accelerate the process in the surrounding space since it has a higher energy density to use to spontaneously cause the transformation.
Your universe catches on magical fire and burns down immediately because you made hard vacuum flammable and the kindling point absolute zero. In the next one, don't damn thermodynamics.
u/puesyomero [+4] The Culture (9 hours later)
well maybe the power source is not obvious at a local level. maybe each fireball cast reduces infinitesimally the universe's background radiation or taps on the planet's magnetic field? let's keep the universe not splodey XD
u/ancientcampus [+2] juggling kittens (18 hours later)
This is kind of an awesome answer. I almost want to see a story that explores this death spiral, though perhaps not so catastrophically.
u/None [+2] (a day later)
Schild's Ladder, by Greg Egan, god of hard sci-fi.
If you enjoy Schild's Ladder, try Diaspora, and the Orthogonal trilogy.
u/MugaSofer [+2] (23 hours later)
there is a half-life-per-cubic-centimeter rate at which space spontaneously becomes transformed into magical suns.
Magic crystals can only be produced from the blood of a murdered god, and the gods are all dead :P
Still.
Good answer.
u/None [+1] (a day later)
Magic crystals can only be produced from the blood of a murdered god, and the gods are all dead
Now your spacefire oozes dead god blood too. Don't damn thermodynamics. It's what keeps the unreasonable from happening instantly.
u/MugaSofer [+1] (a day later)
But there are a limited number of gods, was the idea.
The metaphorical computer simulating the universe tracks the bodies of the original Admin-access users and allows them privileges other materials do not have.
That ... feels like it shouldn't be capable of spontaneous generation, assuming that quantum effects can't spontaneously generate a time machine or somesuch. Shouldn't it?
u/None [+1] (a day later)
But it's also what makes the universe run down and die, waaaaaah.
u/TimeLoopedPowerGamer [+5] Utopian Smut Peddler (2 hours later)
Reddit has long been a hot spot for conversation on the internet. About 57 million people visit the site every day to chat about topics as varied as makeup, video games and pointers for power washing driveways.
In recent years, Reddit’s array of chats also have been a free teaching aid for companies like Google, OpenAI and Microsoft. Those companies are using Reddit’s conversations in the development of giant artificial intelligence systems that many in Silicon Valley think are on their way to becoming the tech industry’s next big thing.
Now Reddit wants to be paid for it. The company said on Tuesday that it planned to begin charging companies for access to its application programming interface, or A.P.I., the method through which outside entities can download and process the social network’s vast selection of person-to-person conversations.
“The Reddit corpus of data is really valuable,” Steve Huffman, founder and chief executive of Reddit, said in an interview. “But we don’t need to give all of that value to some of the largest companies in the world for free.”
The move is one of the first significant examples of a social network’s charging for access to the conversations it hosts for the purpose of developing A.I. systems like ChatGPT, OpenAI’s popular program. Those new A.I. systems could one day lead to big businesses, but they aren’t likely to help companies like Reddit very much. In fact, they could be used to create competitors — automated duplicates to Reddit’s conversations.
Reddit is also acting as it prepares for a possible initial public offering on Wall Street this year. The company, which was founded in 2005, makes most of its money through advertising and e-commerce transactions on its platform. Reddit said it was still ironing out the details of what it would charge for A.P.I. access and would announce prices in the coming weeks.
Reddit’s conversation forums have become valuable commodities as large language models, or L.L.M.s, have become an essential part of creating new A.I. technology.
L.L.M.s are essentially sophisticated algorithms developed by companies like Google and OpenAI, which is a close partner of Microsoft. To the algorithms, the Reddit conversations are data, and they are among the vast pool of material being fed into the L.L.M.s. to develop them.
u/MugaSofer [+2] (23 hours later)
I have to admit, I'm a little unclear on your reasoning re: crystals and poultice are banned. (You're almost certainly right about the witch-hunts, though.)
u/TimeLoopedPowerGamer [+2] Utopian Smut Peddler (a day later)
Reddit has long been a hot spot for conversation on the internet. About 57 million people visit the site every day to chat about topics as varied as makeup, video games and pointers for power washing driveways.
In recent years, Reddit’s array of chats also have been a free teaching aid for companies like Google, OpenAI and Microsoft. Those companies are using Reddit’s conversations in the development of giant artificial intelligence systems that many in Silicon Valley think are on their way to becoming the tech industry’s next big thing.
Now Reddit wants to be paid for it. The company said on Tuesday that it planned to begin charging companies for access to its application programming interface, or A.P.I., the method through which outside entities can download and process the social network’s vast selection of person-to-person conversations.
“The Reddit corpus of data is really valuable,” Steve Huffman, founder and chief executive of Reddit, said in an interview. “But we don’t need to give all of that value to some of the largest companies in the world for free.”
The move is one of the first significant examples of a social network’s charging for access to the conversations it hosts for the purpose of developing A.I. systems like ChatGPT, OpenAI’s popular program. Those new A.I. systems could one day lead to big businesses, but they aren’t likely to help companies like Reddit very much. In fact, they could be used to create competitors — automated duplicates to Reddit’s conversations.
Reddit is also acting as it prepares for a possible initial public offering on Wall Street this year. The company, which was founded in 2005, makes most of its money through advertising and e-commerce transactions on its platform. Reddit said it was still ironing out the details of what it would charge for A.P.I. access and would announce prices in the coming weeks.
Reddit’s conversation forums have become valuable commodities as large language models, or L.L.M.s, have become an essential part of creating new A.I. technology.
L.L.M.s are essentially sophisticated algorithms developed by companies like Google and OpenAI, which is a close partner of Microsoft. To the algorithms, the Reddit conversations are data, and they are among the vast pool of material being fed into the L.L.M.s. to develop them.
u/MugaSofer [+1] (a day later)
I would assume that members of the ruling class that used crystal weapons themselves would be sufficiently effective at killing their own enemies that it would become universal among the ruling class. Am I overestimating the offensive capabilities here?
The industrial applications are such that at least one member of the ruling class would use it for such, or allow a member of the merchant class access; and from there it would become universal among the merchant class. I ... honestly think this is true even if they were illegal at first, but maybe I have a more tech-driven view of history than you.
The peasant class would probably remain fairly unchanged, yeah, unless society was completely revolutionized. (Since slaves are cheaper than crystal golems.) But we tend to consider the upper classes' tech level and society when discussing a culture anyway, right?
As for magical healing items, why wouldn't they hoard them, making a greater profit off the rich upper class?
Because ... economics? That "objection" seems like it would apply to literally any good.
u/TimeLoopedPowerGamer [+1] Utopian Smut Peddler (a day later)
Reddit has long been a hot spot for conversation on the internet. About 57 million people visit the site every day to chat about topics as varied as makeup, video games and pointers for power washing driveways.
In recent years, Reddit’s array of chats also have been a free teaching aid for companies like Google, OpenAI and Microsoft. Those companies are using Reddit’s conversations in the development of giant artificial intelligence systems that many in Silicon Valley think are on their way to becoming the tech industry’s next big thing.
Now Reddit wants to be paid for it. The company said on Tuesday that it planned to begin charging companies for access to its application programming interface, or A.P.I., the method through which outside entities can download and process the social network’s vast selection of person-to-person conversations.
“The Reddit corpus of data is really valuable,” Steve Huffman, founder and chief executive of Reddit, said in an interview. “But we don’t need to give all of that value to some of the largest companies in the world for free.”
The move is one of the first significant examples of a social network’s charging for access to the conversations it hosts for the purpose of developing A.I. systems like ChatGPT, OpenAI’s popular program. Those new A.I. systems could one day lead to big businesses, but they aren’t likely to help companies like Reddit very much. In fact, they could be used to create competitors — automated duplicates to Reddit’s conversations.
Reddit is also acting as it prepares for a possible initial public offering on Wall Street this year. The company, which was founded in 2005, makes most of its money through advertising and e-commerce transactions on its platform. Reddit said it was still ironing out the details of what it would charge for A.P.I. access and would announce prices in the coming weeks.
Reddit’s conversation forums have become valuable commodities as large language models, or L.L.M.s, have become an essential part of creating new A.I. technology.
L.L.M.s are essentially sophisticated algorithms developed by companies like Google and OpenAI, which is a close partner of Microsoft. To the algorithms, the Reddit conversations are data, and they are among the vast pool of material being fed into the L.L.M.s. to develop them.
u/clawclawbite [+3] (an hour later)
Use cutting blades and golumns to make massive self propelled barges. Combine with canals and lakes and you have a massive influx of cheap travel and trade. The world is connected.
Magic tanks and mobile defense towers around all of the lakes. Defense in depth is hard. Anything landlocked is safer, but much more cut off from supply.
u/DCarrier [+1] (3 hours later)
You could just use a teleporter.
u/clawclawbite [+3] (3 hours later)
Yes, that is what the barges are for. They are the largest, largest cargo load, most cost effective vehicle to build by a wide margin. Assuming that the spell cost is not negligible. If the cost is small enough, teleporting skateboards.
u/FuguofAnotherWorld [+3] Roll the Dice on Fate (an hour later)
Seems like a pretty deadly place, heavily biased towards offence rather than defence. A teleport spell, but no tele-blocker to keep your house safe from invading teleporters. Fireballs, and unstoppable blades, but no magic shields or anti-fire potions. Seems like the thing to do is to gain a decent stockpile of fireball amulets, build up a force of magical uploads then build a castle. The uploads are weak at close range, so make sure they never get close. Keep them behind defences and arrow slits. If you can just graft on golem limbs, why stop at just 2 arms for a warrior? Especially if 2 can hold normal weapons while the others all hold crystals. It seems more and more that a properly outfitted person would have an extreme advantage.
As for the bloodline mages, they'd pretty much be walking natural disasters. I mean really, mind control and precognition alone is enough to make the Simurgh fearsome. Telekinesis of swarms of magical razors would cut down just about anything. Biokinesis to harden skin into armour and re-route injuries. The only thing for it would be to hope they're too mentally compromised to plan properly or else they're going to be in charge of the place, or at least some local places. It would make a good Warring Gods age which destroyed all that came before, Shinsekai Yori style. From there you can imply various things about how this all came to be if you like. Sufficiently advanced arseholes or whatever.
The magic crystals don't run out of charge, so it seems fighting would be limited basically by population total number of crystals. A large part of war would be capturing enemy crystals seeing as i'm assuming that more don't get built often (if at all). If you have them, and your enemy does not then you've basically won. Consequently a decisive battle would be doubly so, because their force is suddenly much stronger for all the extra uploads and fireballs that they've looted that you no longer have.
Looks like wars would come pretty often, no real limit on it on the arms side, teleporting carts would sure make dealing with a supply chain easier. Works for messages and orders too.
u/Gurkenglas [+3] (an hour later)
How was crystal magic discovered? The history is important, because the people in power back then are presumably still around.
How viable is a von Neumann upload golem? To quote HPMOR's chapter 119:
Someone would think of it, someone would talk, someone would try it. The probability was as close to certainty as made no difference.
Or, to put it another way: What costs more, constructing an upload golem or raising a baby to mastery? Because that's the way the malthusian trap goes.
u/TimeLoopedPowerGamer [+1] Utopian Smut Peddler (2 hours later)
Reddit has long been a hot spot for conversation on the internet. About 57 million people visit the site every day to chat about topics as varied as makeup, video games and pointers for power washing driveways.
In recent years, Reddit’s array of chats also have been a free teaching aid for companies like Google, OpenAI and Microsoft. Those companies are using Reddit’s conversations in the development of giant artificial intelligence systems that many in Silicon Valley think are on their way to becoming the tech industry’s next big thing.
Now Reddit wants to be paid for it. The company said on Tuesday that it planned to begin charging companies for access to its application programming interface, or A.P.I., the method through which outside entities can download and process the social network’s vast selection of person-to-person conversations.
“The Reddit corpus of data is really valuable,” Steve Huffman, founder and chief executive of Reddit, said in an interview. “But we don’t need to give all of that value to some of the largest companies in the world for free.”
The move is one of the first significant examples of a social network’s charging for access to the conversations it hosts for the purpose of developing A.I. systems like ChatGPT, OpenAI’s popular program. Those new A.I. systems could one day lead to big businesses, but they aren’t likely to help companies like Reddit very much. In fact, they could be used to create competitors — automated duplicates to Reddit’s conversations.
Reddit is also acting as it prepares for a possible initial public offering on Wall Street this year. The company, which was founded in 2005, makes most of its money through advertising and e-commerce transactions on its platform. Reddit said it was still ironing out the details of what it would charge for A.P.I. access and would announce prices in the coming weeks.
Reddit’s conversation forums have become valuable commodities as large language models, or L.L.M.s, have become an essential part of creating new A.I. technology.
L.L.M.s are essentially sophisticated algorithms developed by companies like Google and OpenAI, which is a close partner of Microsoft. To the algorithms, the Reddit conversations are data, and they are among the vast pool of material being fed into the L.L.M.s. to develop them.
u/MugaSofer [+1] (23 hours later)
Re: price:
Darn it, I should have mentioned that all these things need roughly the same amount of crystal, so the prices of all magic items are going to be roughly the same. (More for things with built-in AI and so on.) That was the whole point of using vaguely-defined "magic crystals" in the first place.
Golems cost more than children, but copying a master is probably cheaper than finding and training a child to the same level of skill. If only because you can always copy the most skilled craftsman you can find. So ... yup, excellent point.
Do bear in mind that crystals are a limited resource, though, so you'd probably hit diminishing returns on your Non Neumann process. I think?
u/Gurkenglas [+2] (a day later)
How are crystals obtained? Can they be mined in practically unlimited numbers by a crazy old miner that crafts himself more arms (and magical-blade-pickaxes, and self-contained-fireball-dynamite sticks - are those reusable?) as he goes? If so, how long does he need to double his arms? (I smell an incremental game cooking.) (Same thing if they're chemically synthesized - or maybe they originally came from a meteor and are continually recycled?)
u/MugaSofer [+1] (a day later)
self-contained-fireball-dynamite sticks - are those reusable?
Yep.
Basically the meteor thing (corpses of slain gods in prehistory.) There are quite a lot of them, but they are of essentially limited number.
With that said, not all of them have been discovered yet; there are sites which are fairly rich in crystals and would take a while mine out. I could see the crazy miner who crafts himself crystal golem clones succeeding in completely mining one out ... you're right, this might be a plot hole.
u/rafaelhr [+2] (an hour later)
Can the magic items do anything other that what you've listed?
u/DCarrier [+2] (3 hours later)
What does teleporting do to the objects momentum? Can you just drop objects off of a cliff and teleport them, or do you have to limit stuff that you don't have to worry about breaking, and teleport normal stuff by using a pulley system and tying it to a boulder you toss off of a cliff?
The magical uploads would give you post-scarcity economy. Find some people who like working and upload some copies of them. Since they won't have to worry about much themselves, they'll work for you. And since you can copy the people who work more, you can find people who are really willing to work.
Since uploads don't seem to have to worry about lifespan, it seems likely that they'll end up in power.
u/MugaSofer [+1] (23 hours later)
What does teleporting do to the objects momentum? Can you just drop objects off of a cliff and teleport them, or do you have to limit stuff that you don't have to worry about breaking, and teleport normal stuff by using a pulley system and tying it to a boulder you toss off of a cliff?
Teleportation retains momentum, since I originally envisaged it as used on vehicles.
u/DCarrier [+1] (23 hours later)
What does it do to the direction? Could a drop something off of a cliff, and then teleport it so it's moving to the side? Can I teleport it a quarter of the way around the world, so that what was down is now east? Does it carry velocity relative to the earth or to something like the sun or the cosmological background microwave radiation?
How precise can you teleport something? Can you teleport cannonballs out of a cannon to a castle you want to knock down? Even if only one in a hundred shots hit, it would still be pretty effective.
u/MugaSofer [+1] (23 hours later)
What does it do to the direction?
Heh, I knew I should have kept the longer answer.
Strictly speaking, speed is conserved, not momentum or velocity; direction is always at the same angle to the Earth's centre of gravity, but otherwise tends to drift randomly the further the target location is from the starting point.
I doubt the locals are actually aware of all that, admittedly, although I suppose they have compasses.
Can you teleport cannonballs out of a cannon to a castle you want to knock down?
You ... should actually be able to do the teleport-cannon trick, yeah. Heck, if you sent a team of surveyors out first, you could probably shoot straight through their walls.
Expensive in crystal, though, come to think. Unless you set up some sort of large, reusable cannonball that would teleport back to you ... hmm. This is a really good idea!
u/puesyomero [+2] The Culture (9 hours later)
manual work is over. golems take over most manufacturing and menial jobs like agriculture, textiles, construction, etc. after the initial die-off of hungry jobless peasants the economy settles as a pseudo post scarcity economy arises where only the crystals themselves are worth something and pay for services, art, or prestige as most goods stem from them. jobs are basicaly creative, or finding mines/crystallizing mana