27 KiB
Solving stories with rational uses of a peggy sue situation.
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Author: u/LeonCross *
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URL: https://www.reddit.com/r/rational/comments/3fw355/solving_stories_with_rational_uses_of_a_peggy_sue/
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Score: 17
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Created: 2015-08-05T16:20:24
Post:
Which fictions would, if trying to solve and not trying to write a fleshed out novel of similar length to source material, be reasonably easy to solve if the memories of the MC from the end of the series are transported to the MC at the start?
Comments:
u/Sparkwitch [+14] (20 minutes later)
Also interesting: Which ones wouldn't?
Solvable stories will typically involve specific bits of knowledge which render previous investigations unnecessary. The majority of murder mysteries, for example.
Unsolvable ones will involve either disastrously ignorant main characters, heavy slogs of unskippable work, or unlikely coincidences which become difficult to replicate.
To an extent Vonnegut's Timequake explores the ugliest aspects of a powerless Peggy Sue. Which other stories would involve the largest amount of semi-Sisyphean repetition?
u/alexanderwales [+18] Time flies like an arrow (27 minutes later)
There might also be some stories that become literally impossible in a Peggy Sue situation. For example, one which requires a test of innocence that the main character can no longer pass. Or a story with a mind-reading villain.
u/Transfuturist [+8] Carthago delenda est. (2 hours later)
Hard Reset 2 is a good example of a Groundhog Day that isn't a complete curbstomp (As well as Mother of Learning). When your villains are looping as well, things can actually be interesting.
u/Chronophilia [+3] sci-fi ≠ futurology (5 hours later)
Hard Reset 2 had some really rather complicated time physics that it spent several pages explaining and still left me with important unanswered questions. But it handled it well otherwise, it definitely demonstrates how the story stays interesting when the villain is looping.
There were a couple of clever scenes where Twilight made a plan and then saw that Chrysalis had already pre-empted it because it had worked in an earlier loop.
u/None [+4] (8 hours later)
[deleted]
u/LeonCross [+8] (8 hours later)
Lol. Worm is probably one of the ones with the most collateral attached to peggy suing it. I'd imagine you'd instantly twing as a plan step in the mind of a sharply dressed woman and throw up a beacon for a certain multi-winged angel thing.
That's not even getting into wigging out any number of weaker precogs.
u/Frommerman [+3] (a day later)
Having not read Worm, that was one of the least coherent sentences I have ever read.
u/PresN [+3] (2 days later)
Worm has quite a few pre-cognitives of various abilities; he was just referring to two that would instantly change the plotline of the entire story the second a peggy sue appeared, as their models of the future would instantly update to what the peggy sue would be doing.
u/Rouninscholar [+1] (2 days later)
I've read worm three times. This comment took me multiple tries.
u/ArgentStonecutter [+6] Emergency Mustelid Hologram (an hour later)
Any stories where the main character does not have blanket agency (eg, they haven't earned necessary military ranks, they have to earn the trust of other characters).
Stories where the journey is the story, slice of life, travelogues.
Stories where the solution is not hidden.
u/Transfuturist [+4] Carthago delenda est. (2 hours later)
Any stories where the main character does not have blanket agency (eg, they haven't earned necessary military ranks, they have to earn the trust of other characters).
Ruling out 99% of HP Peggy Sue fiction. Gobs of gold, and impressionable children. Why Harry is always the one looping I'll never want to know.
u/ArgentStonecutter [+5] Emergency Mustelid Hologram (3 hours later)
How about a story where Dumbledore is looping... and he does everything the same anyway.
u/Transfuturist [+12] Carthago delenda est. (3 hours later)
That is utterly uncharitable to Dumbledore. I'm sure he could find something to change, like the words in his first-year speech.
u/FeepingCreature [+27] GCV Literally The Entire Culture (15 hours later)
Sometimes Dumbledore wondered if he was doing the right thing.
It had taken, by his very rough estimate, approximately 37 attempts, 37 wild and dangerous and reckless and unpredictable repetitions to find a reliable path that led to a certain room in the Department of Mysteries without Voldemort immediately concluding that he'd broken the Compact of Fate, and abandoning all restraint. One memorable time, he had had to wait for nearly a century for Voldemort to let down his guard and deploy his Inferi elsewhere.
37 times a decade of warfare had left his mind deeply scarred. Once he had found the stable path, it had taken him nearly another three loops to regain some amount of internal composure, and another five to fully research the rituals that would stabilize his mind and outward behavior for the millenia to come.
When all you have is a time loop...
Dumbledore had in fact heard of the chaos effect, and in the countless years behind him, he had seen ample evidence of it. The slightest permutation, the most minimal of touches sufficed to alter history. And one of these days... one of these decades, he'd find the words to say that made everything work, the words that would, if not avoid, then at the least minimize the casualties.
Dumbledore rose from his seat, and behind the kindly spectacles and gentle eyes, a counter that had been set in motion a long time ago ticked forward another step.
“Welcome to a new year at Hogwarts! Before we begin our banquet, I would like to say a few words. And here they are: Nitwit! Blubber! Oddment! Spring!”
u/Transfuturist [+3] Carthago delenda est. (15 hours later)
Fucking kek.
shoots self
u/DCarrier [+1] (6 hours later)
Or one where everything goes disastrously wrong, and then Dumbledore sends his mind to the past.
u/None [+4] (8 hours later)
Sometimes it's Harry plus someone else. To some extent it makes sense to bring the rich kid along -- that lets you worry less about getting money.
Also, I think authors see Harry as a blank slate. In canon he just goes along with what others want a lot, doesn't show much personality, and obviously could do so much more than he did. Plus the series says he's the main character.
u/DCarrier [+1] (6 hours later)
I've seen one where it was the Marauders looping.
u/Transfuturist [+2] Carthago delenda est. (11 hours later)
Link?
u/ancientcampus [+1] juggling kittens (6 days later)
I've wanted for some time to write a story called "Looping Luna".
But that's another story.
u/Transfuturist [+1] Carthago delenda est. (6 days later)
u/ancientcampus [+1] juggling kittens (6 days later)
I don't actually have anything written on that one. I've got a bunch of disorganized snippets from a tale of Harry on a single-day groundhog loop for months to years, during which he figures out that Luna will a) believe him, and b) continue to be novel and interesting if he provides a different "seed number" to her every reset. The story's a farce, and they make mayhem.
u/Transfuturist [+1] Carthago delenda est. (7 days later)
...
In a story called "Looping Luna"...
The looper is Harry.
Fuck this noise, I'm outta here.
u/ancientcampus [+1] juggling kittens (7 days later)
Hah! Nope, I've wanted to write a story about a looping Luna. I stopped the Harry one because, as mentioned elsewhere, he was just playing the everyman viewpoint to watch Luna's craziness, and I realized it would just be better to write one with Luna as the main character.
...man, this has gotten way off topic. :)
u/Sparkwitch [+3] (3 hours later)
"Blanket agency" is a great way of summarizing that particular concept. It's bothered me in stories for years and I haven't had a good label for what was wrong. Protagonists with too much freedom are infuriating in all but the most risky, explosive narratives... and risk escalation gets exhausting rather fast for me.
u/GaBeRockKing [+1] Horizon Breach: http://archiveofourown.org/works/6785857 (7 hours later)
With a peggy sue caveat, even slice of life turns into action/munchkinry.
u/Transfuturist [+1] Carthago delenda est. (11 hours later)
Lol. I'd like to see Lucky Star Peggy Sue.
Of course, as with all LS fanfic, it would be Konami.
u/None [+11] (an hour later)
If you took Frodo's memories back to the day Gandalf told him he'd need to take the One Ring to Rivendell, that wouldn't change much. In fact, you might be bringing back his addiction and desire to keep the Ring, which would thwart the plan entirely. And as you suggest, the unlikely coincidence of Smeagol stealing Frodo's finger and falling into the lava at Mt Doom wouldn't be repeated. Frodo would ensure that Smeagol couldn't follow them.
More generally, if you have a story that is about doing and not about knowing, it doesn't become any easier. If the character suffers effects of trauma by the end of the original story, it becomes harder.
u/invisime [+9] (4 hours later)
OP said Main Character. So you must mean Sam's memories. ;-)
u/redrach [+3] (6 hours later)
Kinda want to read that now.
u/invisime [+3] (2 days later)
I doubt Mr. Gamgee has the charisma to actually convince anyone of the veracity of the knowledge he would have gained. Though Gandalf would likely be intrigued enough to believe him, the rest of the Shire would think he was (even more) off his rocker.
u/ancientcampus [+2] juggling kittens (6 days later)
Yeah, Sam would have it hard if not for Gandalf. Gandalf would indeed believe him, and probably, if he's being smart (he usually is, but had a blind spot with the Hobbits) he'll pump Sam for info for a month straight. Then the strategy is mostly Gandalf's problem.
u/invisime [+1] (6 days later)
I have a feeling Gandalf might get really wrapped up in trying to figure out how Sam came by the information. I mean, did the Ainur just skip a track in their song, or what?
u/ancientcampus [+1] juggling kittens (7 days later)
Well, there's "Back Again", with Peggy Sue Bilbo. It's okay. Spends a lot of time with Bilbo as a Tween, making a name for himself in some Shire vs Baddies war.
u/Transfuturist [+3] Carthago delenda est. (2 hours later)
Didn't Gandalf test Frodo? He wouldn't be the ringbearer if his ring-lust came with him.
If it was discovered he had traveled back, he would also probably be brought along for future information, at least to Rivendell, and some of the conflict could come from Frodo attempting to retake the ring. Sam as ringbearer would be pretty interesting.
u/GeeJo [+8] Custom Flair (3 hours later)
Things would change drastically assuming that the Long-Awaited Party was the Peggy Sue point. Gandalf left the ring with Frodo for seventeen years before returning to set off to Rivendell. Assuming that they get a head start this time around, the whole state of the world is going to be drastically different. Gollum would still be in his cave, Theoden would be in his early 50s and his son would be an infant. Denethor wouldn't be as crazy and Boromir would by in his prime.
They wouldn't run into Aragorn by chance at the Prancing Pony, and being called into the Fellowship specifically for his bloodline would drastically affect his relationship with the Hobbits at the start. Moria had already fallen by this point, so a quick note to Gandalf about the Balrog would probably convince them to get through the mountains by a different road - especially if Saruman could somehow be kept in the dark about the Ring's rediscovery.
u/Transfuturist [+3] Carthago delenda est. (3 hours later)
I forgot entirely about the seventeen year gap. That would vanish, since I think it was for research and counsel with Saruman to determine that it was the One Ring. Their chances would be significantly raised by the time gained, but it would also be much harder to obtain a fellowship, since leaders of the various races wouldn't know that Sauron had returned.
As for Moria, that was necessary, unless you retcon the entire setting. Unless Saruman's betrayal could be prevented, Gandalf's fall would be necessary to restore an earnest leader of the Istari.
However, the gap could still be present. Frodo would probably avoid confirming it as the One Ring due to his ring-lust, and when Gandalf left he might even fall to it as Gollum did in the intervening years. Then they would be in an even worse situation.
u/None [+0] (9 hours later)
[deleted]
u/Transfuturist [+7] Carthago delenda est. (11 hours later)
He had a mere suspicion that the ring was a Great Ring, due to Bilbo's well-preservedness and tendency to, ah, forget that he had not yet given the ring away, and other such oddities. There are many magic rings in Middle-Earth, and the One Ring had been lost for 2500 years. Saruman had told Gandalf that it had rolled down the Anduin River into the sea. Those seventeen years were to confirm the locations of the other Great Rings, the Rings of Power that Sauron had created, because only they could grant such longevity. Gandalf was no idiot. Before all of that, it was a cheap party trick, just as Bilbo used it.
u/DCarrier [+3] (6 hours later)
A murder mystery can't be skipped, since the testimony of a time-traveler is not enough to convict. They will know what evidence to look for though. If someone goes back too far before the important events, the butterfly effect could change the story so much that their future knowledge is worthless.
u/alexanderwales [+13] Time flies like an arrow (19 minutes later)
The first Matrix movie would be solved almost instantly, since the single big thing that happened was entirely internal to the protagonist's mind. All of the conflicts are almost instantly eliminated, until the next two movies roll around.
Almost all detective stories are about finding the evidence, so almost all of the conflicts just get solved through sheer foreknowledge. This includes pretty much every episode of Scooby-Doo.
Death Note, no matter which of the main two you consider the protagonist.
Works of fiction with second act betrayals are also a wide field ripe for instantly solved problems; if the bad guy is your traveling companion and not ridiculously overpowered, it should be easy to kill him (assuming the main character doesn't have ethical qualms with that).
Almost every Groundhog Day type situation (including the original Groundhog Day) because most of the changes are internal to the character's mind in the first place.
u/ArgentStonecutter [+2] Emergency Mustelid Hologram (an hour later)
until the next two movies roll around.
u/xkcd_transcriber [+2] (an hour later)
Title: Matrix Revisited
Title-text: I actually remember being entertained by both the sequels while in the theater. They just don't hold up nearly as well in later comparison.
Stats: This comic has been referenced 315 times, representing 0.4183% of referenced xkcds.
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u/Sagebrysh [+4] Rank 7 Pragmatist (12 minutes later)
Does the MC get all their endgame powers too?
u/Transfuturist [+3] Carthago delenda est. (2 hours later)
If they're mental, perhaps. Realistically, mental powers would also be disrupted by returning to an earlier developmental stage in the brain. Spiritual powers definitely. Powers that require elements of any three would be more complicated. It would be nice to read Peggy Sues with that much thought put into it.
u/Chronophilia [+1] sci-fi ≠ futurology (5 hours later)
Spiritual powers? Beings like D&D clerics gain their powers from service or bargains with supernatural entities, so they ought to lose their powers unless their god is looping too.
Peggy Sue stories usually conflate a person's mind with the source of their magic (their "soul"), but you can tell stories without that assumption. Harry Potter Peggy Sues often reduce Harry's "magical strength" to match his age.
u/Transfuturist [+5] Carthago delenda est. (11 hours later)
It can go either way. Mother of Learning has power grow with each successive time loop. And I haven't seen very many Peggy Sues that decrease Harry's magical power; those sound like they might actually be well-written.
u/Chronophilia [+1] sci-fi ≠ futurology (a day later)
Back Again, Harry? is the only one that springs to mind. I haven't actually read much Harry Potter fanfiction other than HPMoR.
u/Sparkwitch [+2] (3 hours later)
Depends what we mean by "powers". Most real-life abilities are more about knowledge than abstract physical prowess. Even if agility and muscle-memory must be retrained, knowing which particular sorts of training work best for you is a big head start.
If we're talking about magic, then it's a matter of paying attention to the particulars of whatever system exists within the story.
u/RMcD94 [+3] (12 minutes later)
Every detective novel in existence.
Harry Potter could tell Dumbledore where everything is. Of course at the start he is a baby so maybe not.
Lord of the Rings notably would be pretty much just as hard, maybe be easier on war side since Gandalf won't die. Seems like things that require information or mystery.
u/None [+8] (37 minutes later)
Here's one by eaglejarl where Harry solves the whole story in 505 words.
u/Chronophilia [+4] sci-fi ≠ futurology (55 minutes later)
(That's a true but slightly misleading description.)
u/adgnatum [+5] (2 hours later)
Or Hermione
The author takes the whole idea seriously. I actually recommend this one.
u/Transfuturist [+3] Carthago delenda est. (11 hours later)
It read like the typical fix-it tract. I don't recommend it.
u/adgnatum [+2] (23 hours later)
I've found where our intuitions diverge: I've seen worse.
More importantly, where did you stop?
True, the original problems of canon are solved pretty easily, because foreknowledge is powerful. But the author still manages to introduce problems because of the age constraint, reasonable concerns about psychological development, etc.
u/Transfuturist [+2] Carthago delenda est. (23 hours later)
I read the whole thing. The character interaction was not believable. Another thing was that Snape did not teach at Hogwarts until the end of the war.
u/adgnatum [+1] (a day later)
...I can't argue with that. Okay then. Thanks for responding. I will update my models accordingly.
u/Transfuturist [+2] Carthago delenda est. (a day later)
You're still allowed to like it... I just don't like some of its elements. There are plenty of people who like those same elements.
u/adgnatum [+1] (a day later)
It's the Snape thing that really gets me. White Squirrel is usually good at details. And I totally missed that one.
u/ancientcampus [+2] juggling kittens (6 days later)
Thanks both for the recommendation and the warning! I would probably read it, if I haven't read a lot of formulaic fix-it fics already. Formulaic isn't always bad if you're not yet sick of the formula. :)
EDIT: I'm 1.5 chapters into it. I'm finding myself quite entertained at present, though I don't know if I'll finish it. Her interaction with her parents and actions at Ollivander's is frankly heartwarming. If "2 year old Hermione being adorable with her parents" sounds good to you, check it out.
EDIT2: Okay this was entirely different from the Peggy Sue formula I'm used to. For one, it's complete at 31K words. It's more a story of her interaction with her parents, the staff, and how she makes a new life for herself. The actual "curbstomp the Dark Lord" phase of the story was pretty average, but only one sixth of the story. The "what do I do now" phase was entirely novel to me, and makes me want to write an entire story with that as a premise.
u/Transfuturist [+3] Carthago delenda est. (2 hours later)
Gandalf's fall in Moria was fated, or at least foreseen given that they passed through Moria. In addition to this, the sacrifice he made by dying was necessary to prove to Eru Iluvatar that he was worthy of being returned from death, stronger, as Gandalf the White. This moral test was planned by Eru Iluvatar so that the mission of the Istari would not fail, as Saruman, originally the White, had betrayed them. Without the sacrifice, everything would have been significantly more difficult, if not impossible, and the Istari would have completely failed. Changing things in Lord of the Rings is significantly harder than other stories, simply because its world is so vast and intricately designed.
u/LiteralHeadCannon [+2] (5 hours later)
What about unbreakable prophecies? How do they interact with Peggy Sue mechanics? Will the same prophecies necessarily come to fruition again, but potentially with a different interpretation? Will they be completely invalidated, because it's a different universe from the one they originally foretold? Will some prophecies apply to the original universe and some to the new one, because when there are multiple futures a prophecy doesn't apply to more than one of them?
u/DCarrier [+6] (6 hours later)
I've seen one where they changed. If the future is causing the prophesy, rather than the other way around, it's only sensible that changing the future would change the prophesy.
I've been wanting to write a story about a battle between two sets of time-travelers. One creates a new timeline every time they time travel, and the other just moves around within the same timeline. As a result, whenever the first one goes back, the timeline is different because of what the second one will do in the past.
u/None [+2] (9 hours later)
The prophecy, or to prophesy.
u/DCarrier [+1] (6 hours later)
The entire Dark Tower series would be skipped. As would Mighty Max. And any other series that ends with the hero going Peggy Sue.
u/ancientcampus [+1] juggling kittens (6 days later)
Running through some webcomics:
Girl Genius: many parts solved. Probably.
Order of the Stick: nope, folks gotta level.
Homestuck: oh god I have no freaking clue. I'm shocked I haven't seen a fanfic of it, though. Come to think, does anyone have one they can link?
Erfworld: This one would be interesting. Would Parson take the same approach in Book 1? There are many reasons to do so, many reasons not to. The moral dilemmas alone, plus deciding on what his objective even is, would make a great read.
Sluggy Freelance: pfff where would you start?
And just to mix it up, Chrono Trigger: not at all solved, unless they keep their levels. Most of that work still needs to be done, and you can fight Lavos at almost any time allready.
u/None [+1] (6 hours later)
[deleted]
u/Transfuturist [+9] Carthago delenda est. (11 hours later)
Around the first sentence, Naruto is having a bad day. Around the second sentence, Naruto is in T&I's basement having information... extracted.
u/Subrosian_Smithy [+1] Nudist Beach (3 days later)
Naruto would stomp, but I don't think it would be that easy for him...
Like, if Naruto tried asking for Kyuubi Chakra Mode that way, Kurama would think Naruto was tricking him and probably become totally uncooperative.
u/ancientcampus [+1] juggling kittens (6 days later)
There are 17 trillion fanfics of peggy sues in the Naruto canon, of every flavor imaginable.
u/DataPacRat [+0] Amateur Immortalist (2 hours later)
Hm... The novel I'm writing, "S.I.", could be Peggy Sued if I were to pull an "and it was all a VR-like simulation" cliche. Even if the reset back to the story's start kept the rest of the universe the same, my protagonist wouldn't necessarily assume that... and given that her story has been something of a piqaresque travelogue, it's hard to say that she's going to have "solved" anything the first time around; so in her second go, she would probably still be something of a wanderer, looking for useful data, gear, and power-ups. Only now she has some Big Thing other than an impending Second Singularity to motivate her, she gets to try to puzzle out the Reset... and she's probably a little wiser, and a little less willing to jump into situations without preparation.
I could probably make a go of it, if I tried... Though I expect that by the time I finish the first go-round, I'd rather start a brand-new story instead. :)