11 KiB
[BST][HF]I struggle with motivation for magical entities.
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Author: u/Shadawn *
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URL: https://www.reddit.com/r/rational/comments/3incin/bsthfi_struggle_with_motivation_for_magical/
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Score: 3
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Created: 2015-08-27T21:24:28
Post:
I don't write anything, but I like to ponder about magic systems in my free time. My favorite one consists of following:
- All magic is actually telekinesis, sometimes performed on nanolevels with magic particles. This telekinesis follows Newton's Third Law (otherwise flight is too cheap, and that's less interesting)
1.1) There's actually a version that includes divination, allowing to get information from much father range from telekinesis.
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Simple spells like temperature manipulation, large-scale telekinesis and maybe electrokinesis are relatively simple and just require some magic power.
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It's possible to do more difficult stuff, like forcing chemical transformatiions, affecting living organisms and minds. But most of them require modern or at least Renaissance knowledge (and I kinda want medieval-style setting). While magic-based research can bring forth a lot of knowledge, I think industrial revolution would come far sooner than enough knowledge to do efficient bio/psycho magic.
3.1) And also even if there's a knowledge, there's an issue of control. Even if mages can "write" something like a programs (since you can't consciously control millions of nanobots), the amount of "debugging" is immence. Afaik, Ra explored some of these troubles.
- Thus I tend to include entities that provide some mages with knowledge and control to do bio/psycho magic (and even simpler stuff, like efficient flying). I kinda want these entities to be ephemeral, sentient and very clever, but can't construct their motivations. Why do they agree to help humans without taking over with all their intelligence and magical prowess?
Comments:
u/Frommerman [+8] (41 minutes later)
Option 1: The entities are actually avatars of trans-universal scientists (or the operators of the Universe simulation, if you want to go that way) who want to work in limited ways to test aspects of this hypothetical universe.
Option 2: The entities are wildly, massively different from humans mentally, such that neither can comprehend the other, and the only similarity is their ravenous curiosity about other forms of life. They want to know how humans could learn to use magic rather than just controlling them and using it in the ways they already know.
Option 3: The entities absolutely do take control, but they find it enjoyable to be perfect mimics of their captives.
u/Tenobrus [+5] (8 hours later)
You could pull an Atlantis and have them be a constructed species created by a since-fallen civilization. Maybe they're just a straight up archival system meant to store records through any catastrophe (although that wouldn't really be the best way to do it). Maybe they were a servant race that were keyed to certain artifacts/individuals, without which they're largely unresponsive (perhaps willing to answer a few questions but not engage for too long or leave whatever locations they inhabit).
Basically with a past human civilization you can come up with a lot of reasons for them to not take over the world but still help humans. But of course you end up with more issues/exploits you need to deal with (why did Atlantis fall? what happens if someone finds the house-elf control ring?).
u/gbear605 [+3] history’s greatest story (5 hours later)
The entities could just be bored. If you were omnipotent and omniscient, there's no reason for you to not give mages knowledge.
u/MrCogmor [+3] (12 hours later)
They don't necessarily need an agenda that requires acquiring power or control over people. You might want to look up the cobblers and brownies of old British folklore. Spirits that would do household chores in the night but if you tried to see them, thank them or give them gifts then they became insulted and would punish you or leave forever.
u/DCarrier [+2] (4 hours later)
- Couldn't you still fly by pushing on the ground? It's more limited, since you can't go past your range, but it works. You could also fly by pushing the air around if you do want to go high. Although maybe you're okay with this. It seems difficult enough to be interesting.
u/Shadawn [+1] (5 hours later)
Yes, both ways work, but first one have significant limitations and is more akin to walking on invisible legs (which can actually be damaged with mundane weapons unless caster spent energy and control to prevent this). And second one is notably difficult to pull off.
u/DCarrier [+1] (5 hours later)
Telekinesis can get damaged? This sounds less like telekinesis and more like those vectors from Elfin Lied.
u/Shadawn [+1] (5 hours later)
Telekinesis can't be damaged, but magic particles performing it can be scattered, unless this is prevented by holding them together with other particles. And yes, maybe telekinesis isn't the best word for it.
u/RidiculousAvgGuy [+2] (a day later)
Off the top of my head:
a) maybe they use humans as phones? Entities are sort of locked in place (gives you an excuse for different areas to have primarily one type of magic), so they use people for communication. They give a mage a spell, and/or a quest, and use leftover room to carry info to other Entities.
B) Maybe they use people for reproduction, like flowers and bees. The more mages there are, the better their population.
C) Another way you could do this is make the Entities distributed infomorphs. to have them use mages like a torrenting service, where the entities are torrents. Every mage they teach a spell to carries a seed of their existence. As long as one is around, they're immortal. I imagine that when warring against one another, they have their mages target the competition.
u/E-o_o-3 [+2] (2 days later)
Orange and Blue motivations (or morality) is the way to go here. The "good vs. selfish" axis is for humans.
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BlueAndOrangeMorality
Just because a human would take power or something doesn't mean the spirit wants to do that. Give your non-human entities totally alien (but somewhat predictable once you get to know them) preferences.
u/gabbalis [+1] (an hour later)
So to split up the questions you really ought to be answering. Do they even want to take over? Do they have any needs? Do they have any wants? My tastes are rather odd so in your position I would make them some sort of psychic soulbased or memetic symbiote or something. I could also go for just a single vast entity toying around with a world for a little while, aka thousands of years. Not every species needs to evolve boardness to our extent after all.
u/Shadawn [+1] (5 hours later)
I kinda enjoy for them to have some agenda. Somewhat similar to warlocks in DnD. Bored omnipotent entities aren't very exciting, it's hard for intelligent character to get more value out of interacting with them.
Needs and wants are similar in general sense, aren't them? I am thinking that they like to exist (and possibly reproduce), and they may need interaction with mages to syphon some power (which they lack). But I fear the resulting society would be dominated by entities, which would breed obedient hosts. Would "common" mages be able to stop enemies vastly superior in technique and immensely clever strategically to boot? Perhaps inability to cooperate would make entities vulnerable?
u/noggin-scratcher [+2] I am a happy tree (16 hours later)
Perhaps inability to cooperate would make entities vulnerable?
I momentarily misread this and it generated a different idea - what if they're unable to concentrate - like a debilitating species-wide case of ADHD?
They could be sentient and smart, and it could fill some goal of theirs to interact with the humans (siphoning power, satisfying a hunger or equivalent biological drive, or they just find it amusing), but nonetheless they don't have the attention span to devise a means of enslaving the humans as obedient hosts; instead they just flit from one mage to the next in a constant state of "You want to do what? That's awesome, let me fuel that for you!"
Makes for a somewhat non-human but still comprehensible nature, and strikes me as quite fey-like to not really care about the affairs of humans even while playing an active role in them. Also leave your options open for a non-typical entity to become a more active player by trying to overcome that limitation.
Although, that approach might have some knock-on effects on exactly what kind of magic it's possible to get done (anything requiring long term effects would need to be continuously cast to avoid your helpful spirit wandering off).
Could also make it difficult to do "boring" magic if that means they get distracted faster. But then, having a reason to make the magic more flashy and grandiose isn't necessarily a bad thing for a story... unless you were aiming for a tone where it's all fairly mundane and commonplace. In the latter case... idk, by authorial fiat spirits are equally fulfilled by all magic regardless of how grand it is?
u/robryk [+1] (4 days later)
A variation on your idea: the world from The Last Ringbearer. There is a magic world, where the magical entities live and their entering the "real" world is very limited. There are artifacts in the real world that allow their owners to make it easier.
This is a complicated setup, but it can be explained by having the creator of the world try to engineer a balance between the "real" and "magical" worlds.
u/None [+1] (4 hours later)
Can't you just create telekinetic flight surface constructs and aerokinesis wind over it until you're high enough to glide?
u/fljared [+3] United Federation of Planets (5 hours later)
Yes, but not with middle-ages knowledge.
These sorts of replies are the best part of this place.
u/Shadawn [+1] (5 hours later)
If I'm understanding your approach correctly, it won't work that well. You certainly can move surface air, but you'll need immense volumes and speed. Making jet enjines is probably easier, and even those require a lot of energy, especially without extra gas volume provided by fuel.
And we're talking from 20th century scientific knowledge. It's much more difficult for medieval person, enough to make flight skill very uncommon outside of Great Mage Community. Which wouldn't be the case if you could just move your boots up in the air.