18 KiB
More Interesting Ways to have Epic Scaled Battles [D]
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Author: u/Kishoto *
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URL: https://www.reddit.com/r/rational/comments/3jk3z5/more_interesting_ways_to_have_epic_scaled_battles/
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Score: 18
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Created: 2015-09-04T00:36:57
Post:
Alright, so a lot of us have read some pretty epic stories by now, and watched some pretty epic moves/shows/animes. And some of these stories are filled with conflict, particularly of the superpowered kind. But there's a recurring trend that I've noticed, and I'm sure I'm not the only one. When the threat level escalates to a certain degree, the enemy of the superpowered conflict always seems to be able to regenerate. What I mean is, it seems that when things scale up enough, you can't really have a good superpowered enemy without some pretty OP regeneration.
What brought this to mind for me was reading a Worm fic. It was a Leviathan battle, and as I read it, and he did his thing, I was just like "Wow man, things would be so simple if he didn't regenerate" and then I started thinking more and more about how many different forms of fiction that have god-level battles come with a regeneration package for said gods.
So here's what I'm asking. What sort of concepts have you seen (or can imagine) that would allow a battle of epic proportions without the enemy being able to regenerate being the thing that keeps them in the fight? For example, Manton (Siberian) is an interesting example.
Comments:
u/PeridexisErrant [+15] put aside fear for courage, and death for life (11 hours later)
You can think of attacks as having one of the six properties in the table below:
_ No damage Some damage Lethal Hits Ignore Regenerate! Die Misses Ignore Beware Dodge Most epic combat involves foes facing each other in the middle column: for most blows, being hit is bad but survivable. Heroes tend to get this with teamwork, villians with regeneration (thematically; there are ofc exceptions).
You can however dip into the lethal column, and then it can get really interesting again:
- Sniper duel - hours of boredom and terror, then someone dies
- Poisons - in food or on blades (see The Princess Bride and Dune, respectively)
- Super-skill - eg Mistborn duelling on Atium
- Misdirection - the Fae are only vulnerable to iron. Will you work it out in time to grab some?
At this point, the metagame becomes a lot more important - you have to win every time, or you die. Everyone balances a line between keeping strength in reserve, and being publicly dangerous enough to avoid as many fights as possible...
u/iamthelowercase [+3] (18 hours later)
This is interesting. I feel like (there's a belief that) to have a good fight scene, you need to spray a lot of damage. But this means you need to not kill the opponents. So you need for the attack to not kill you when it hits, or you need for the attack to never hit. And if you "never hit" but screw up even once, you die. And wizard-style no-sell defenses are boring.
TL;DR find a way to make not getting hit epic-scale interesting. I really like the sniper idea.
u/mhd-hbd [+5] Writes 'The World is Your Oyster, The Universe is Your Namesake' (14 hours later)
For a good "epic fight where regen isn't a factor" see the end of Fine Structure.
Basically, it's two gods throwing hits at each other of such magnitude that the killing blow involves compressing the vast majority of the mass of the Earth into a baseball and using the near-black-hole dense sphere as a projectile.
Among other things done in said fight: traveling so quickly through the universe (i.e. a hair's breadth away from the speed of light) that every star the traveler passes goes nova; turning the continent of Antartica from mass energy into an equivalent amount of free energy; spawning an army of force-construct space battleships in a picosecond; etc.
If you want to push up the EPICness of an encounter then make it QUICK. When an immovable object meets an unstoppable force, one of the yields and it is over in an instant (and a giant explosion.) Have the whole battle be reduced to dodges and feints that level buildings. Have the two warriors work on a level of superspeed which makes everything else irrelevant.
There's lots of ways not to rely on regeneration. You mention Worm, think of Contessa.
u/iamthelowercase [+3] (18 hours later)
Fuck yes make it quick. Fine Structure has a chapter/section titled "fight scene". Basically a group of mini-Superman doing it out at "catch a bullet like it's a baseball" speeds, with kill-Superman grade sniper rifles and explosives and using cars as improvised weapons while taking apart the one the other guy is using. (I'm probably exaggerating a little.) Maybe the awesomest fight scene I've ever read. And the whole thing took like a minute in-universe real time.
u/Kishoto [+1] (17 hours later)
i can't accept Contessa as a reference since she's just broken as hell already. Her power is less about fighting and more about being able to "see" the narrative and plan accordingly. It's as close to a manifestation of Plot Armor as you can get without breaking the fourth wall
u/rineSample [+1] (18 hours later)
Then, in that case, what did you think of Muad'Dib and Leto II in the Dune series?
u/Kishoto [+1] (20 hours later)
Never seen it, unfortunately :/
u/rineSample [+2] (22 hours later)
BRO
let me PM you real quick
u/Nevereatcars [+2] The Greatest Is Behind (22 hours later)
That would make sense, seeing as Dune is a series of books.
u/Kishoto [+2] (22 hours later)
Lol, I know there's an old movie called Dune as well. Thought that was what was meant.
u/FuguofAnotherWorld [+1] Roll the Dice on Fate (a day later)
Yeah, the movie was pretty bad comparatively. Some things just work better in text, and this was one of them.
u/mhd-hbd [+1] Writes 'The World is Your Oyster, The Universe is Your Namesake' (a day later)
OK then, take the Numberman — he can see ANY AND ALL attacks coming, as well as ANY AND ALL openings. Fighting him is a nightmare no matter who you are.
u/Kishoto [+1] (a day later)
He's broken as well, but considerably less so. Fighting him might be interesting because your plan would have to cover so many bases that, by the time you've already started the fight, it's checkmate.
u/Solonarv [+1] Chaos Legion (a day later)
Meaning you'd probably have to be Accord or Contessa.
u/Aabcehmu112358 [+1] Utter Fallacy (2 days later)
Or just a big enough brute that he's got no tactical options.
u/Solonarv [+1] Chaos Legion (a day later)
Here's the final chapter of Fine Structure, by the way. The entire story can be found here.
u/notmy2ndopinion [+7] Concent of Saunt Edhar (an hour later)
Gargantuan size, thick armor, lightning speed, monstrous strength...
Invulnerability, epic regeneration, clones, time-stopping...
None of these tricks matter compared to the power of Mystery.
There's always going to be a proverbial missing scale in the dragon's hide. What makes it interesting is that the story sets up a rule and then seemingly breaks it when it comes to the villain.
For example, the first season of Heroes was basically about stopping Sylar from getting regeneration from Claire ("Save the Cheerleader, Save the World.") However, regeneration didn't make Sylar an epic villain -- it was the uncertainty of what abilities he had at his disposal as well as the intelligent application (for the most part) of said abilities when compared to his peer, in the form of Peter.
If you don't like "OP powerz," derive the underlying rules for why it seemingly works, and then have the hero nerf it.
I think that's what makes Siberian interesting. She starts off as OP until Taylor realizes that she's just a fat old guy in a van.
u/Kishoto [+2] (3 hours later)
To be honest, I was always kind of skeptical of Siberian and its effects. Like, the range limit thing always seemed kind of wonky. How did Manton stay within the proper range so often? I'm almost certain at least a few of the S9's fights weren't car-friendly. And no one ever noticed Siberian carry this van around, so it's not as if she was protecting it.
u/Revlar [+4] (4 hours later)
It is a bit wonky, but considering Manton/Siberian can easily force a confrontation and move it wherever they want, it's not that problematic. She's an immovable object, and no hero's gonna complain if she just stands still and mouths off at them, since they don't know that's when Manton finds his way into a building that's closer to the fight.
u/Kishoto [+5] (4 hours later)
Siberian doesn't talk though. So she can't do much "mouthing off". And I mean, bro, think of some of the stuff they've thrown at Siberian, and some of the places the S9 would've ended up facing off against the heroes, and some of the AOE shit that had to have been attempted on the Siberian in all her years fighting the Protectorate. It just seems really unlikely that one pedestrian van could plunk along around all that shit without being noticed.
u/None [+4] (8 hours later)
It was suggested by Tattletale that Manton getting so close really more of a psychological compulsion, some sort of voyeurism. Or there could be some sort of scaling control.
It depends on how wide the range is. If it's wide enough...the PRT will quickly come to the conclusion that AoE blasts aren't particularly effective on the Nine -Shatterbird might sense something and Siberian will protect group members- and that'd deter some really crazy shit from happening within cities since there's very little chance it'd work.
The weird thing is Jack not knowing, since he'd likely be the one you rely on to paper over this weakness by countering enemy parahumans.
u/Kishoto [+1] (11 hours later)
Really? I could've sworn there was some sort of established range limit in universe. I could be wrong, Worm had a LOT of content, to say the least.
u/None [+2] (16 hours later)
I don't think her range is infinite, but I think that voyeurism is one of the answers Tattletale gave for him being so close while the range itself was kinda vague.
u/Revlar [+1] (12 hours later)
Siberian can talk, though. The only people that force themselves to engage her are heroes, and they don't do collateral damage. After a while, nobody cared to put their life in danger anymore.
Also, Manton works for Cauldron, so Contessa could pop in using a door and pull him out of danger whenever necessary.
u/RMcD94 [+1] (7 hours later)
Especially against super speed or flying Heroes. Did no one attack her when she was travelling through the Midwest or something similarly flat
u/Nevereatcars [+1] The Greatest Is Behind (22 hours later)
I thought she was just a manifestation, not a permanent physical object. So Manton could just not have her running in those situations.
If I were a super-villain, I wouldn't bring out Siberian until it was time to get Dangerous.
u/Bowbreaker [+1] Solitary Locust (13 days later)
Except that the rest of the S9 didn't even know of the Manton/Siberian connection. Her suddenly disappearing and some dude in a van following them both seems weird.
u/ToaKraka [+2] https://i.imgur.com/OQGHleQ.png (31 minutes later)
###SPOILERS FOR TIME BRAID
The final battle of Time Braid consisted entirely of Sasuke's sending out his high-powered minions to wear down Naruto, Sakura, and Copy-Hinata, while Sasuke himself stayed in the background with his intangibility and teleportation. (On the other hand, though, both Naruto and Sakura used a lot of regeneration...)
u/Solonarv [+3] Chaos Legion (4 hours later)
Well, I'll grant that for Sakura, if grudgingly. I'd rather say that her body became disposable; being able to just pull a fresh body out of her mindscape and drop an aspect into it is a bit beyond mere regeneration.
Naruto definitely used regeneration a lot, though I'm sure transforming into a dragon makes that less necessary.
I absolutely have to disagree for Hinata. She didn't even have a body for much of the fighting; instead, she sat in Naruto's mindscape and threw out shadow clones. Her evasive fighting style made the fragility of said clones not so much of an issue.
u/nerdguy1138 [+1] GNU Terry Pratchett (a day later)
About time braid, sakura said hinata could merge with her nonlooped self, and then tell the system that only half of her agreed to sell Sakura her soul, to void the contract. Did she ever actually do that?
u/Solonarv [+1] Chaos Legion (a day later)
I seem to recall Sakura relinquishing her hold on Hinata's soul to Naruto. I'm fuzzy on whether or not she voided the contract at any point.
u/nerdguy1138 [+1] GNU Terry Pratchett (a day later)
was that during the summoning contract weirdness? I must have missed that.
u/Solonarv [+1] Chaos Legion (2 days later)
I think so, yes.
u/GaBeRockKing [+2] Horizon Breach: http://archiveofourown.org/works/6785857 (38 minutes later)
Extensive decoy systems, the whole "FINAL FORM" craze, and even giving the enemy their own last ditch tactic to try might work.
u/LiteralHeadCannon [+2] (4 hours later)
The enemy's superpower is that they can copy themselves (and they have the mental discipline necessary for their copies to cooperate with each other). This does not serve as a form of regeneration because all injuries carry over to subsequent branches. (For example, if there are two of them, and one of them had their arm blown off, then they would need to use the one with the intact arm if they wanted a new copy with an intact arm. If both of them are missing an arm, they're shit out of luck.)
u/Uncaffeinated [+3] (5 hours later)
Reminds me a bit of Coil.
You'd have to put a limit on the number or rate of copies though.
u/Kishoto [+1] (4 hours later)
I kind of like this idea. Sort of like a growing hive mind?
u/khafra [+1] (12 hours later)
ASSUMING CONTROL OF THIS FORM
u/Shadawn [+1] (18 hours later)
The Wheel of Time duodecalogy had very powerful characters (some of them, assisted by best and one-of-a-kind magic artifact, could destroy the world), but nobody (besides some monsters) actually had any regeneration. Close-combat Battles mostly consisted of destroying enemy's magical attacks before they affected physical world. In case of power mismatch less powerful mages tend to run and hide, trying to ambush or use some of the less-known mechanics like Dream World.
In general, god-level battles (assuming gods have human-like bodies) tend to invoke such extremely powerful attacks that even slight lapse of defence is enough to kill average human several times over. Thus, they need either close to perfect defence/counters, or some sort of survivability. And regeneration in neat in the way it shows attack's power while still allowing the fight to continue.
u/Kishoto [+1] (18 hours later)
I know what you mean, regeneration definitely has its place and is very useful as a narrative device. I just feel like it tends to be overused, especially when it comes to eldritch abomination level enemies.
u/None [+1] (18 hours later)
Well if you read "The Games We Play" by Ryuugi, an epic fanfiction crossover, there's some interesting stuff in that series. A ton of regeneration but some other stuff:
With an extremely costly technique that involves time-travel handwave and probability manipulation, Jaune manages to not die when he (Jaune) launches a hilarious amount of AoE attacks at close-range at an opponent. He describes it as a trippy sensation of feeling like you were existing in different spots at different times, of existing and not existing at the same time, etc.
If you have speedsters in your work, take their effect on the surroundings seriously. A man running at Mach 5 will be extremely obvious and epic.
u/Kishoto [+1] (18 hours later)
Ive read that Ryuugi story up to like last Friday's update. I've stopped reading for a while so I can binge read them later, once some of them have built up. And yea, the Grimm tend to all have regeneration once u get past a certain point.
As far as speedsters, I hadn't seriously considered the implications of speedster movement (accepting that whatever made them fast hand waved physics enough that they didn't damage anything) until I started reading the Doc Future series. The speedster in that was done really well and I found it refreshing how rationally it treated her powers. Rocks = orbital cannon :)
u/FuguofAnotherWorld [+1] Roll the Dice on Fate (a day later)
The problem is that in most fiction superpowered attacks massively outnumber super-powered defences. Because super attacks are big and flashy while defences just tend to make things a bit boring if too many characters have them. Skitter herself is a good example: massive and deadly offence capable of depopulating a city block almost instantly (or most of a city before she's noticed and stopped), pretty weak defence compared to any real brute. It's a time honoured recipe that allows protagonists to take out overpowered enemies while at the same time being supremely vulnerable every step of the way, which makes for better nailbiters.
You can give a boss outrageous speed, but then you need a reason that he doesn't just use it to poke his enemy full of holes. One way could be the missing Traveler from worm, who can go back in time 3 seconds when he fucks up. Not technically regeneration but it does the same thing in that it allows you to demonstrate the deadliness of the attacks while still continuing the combat. Kakuzu is another good example with his ridiculously strong skin and 4 hearts to destroy before he goes down.