23 KiB
I saw this on R/funny. It's kind of relevant: What if Disney villains were smart?
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Author: u/jldew *
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Score: 67
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Created: 2015-09-26T05:01:27
Post:
Comments:
u/windg0d [+40] (2 hours later)
I like that scar doesn't really get one because he essentially won.
u/Bowbreaker [+27] Solitary Locust (5 hours later)
And the only reason he subsequently lost was because of a drought totally out of his control. I guess in the rational!Scar version Simba would have returned just to find the Pride Rock completely abandoned. Because a smart king Scar would have listened to Sarabi.
u/LiteralHeadCannon [+17] (9 hours later)
I was about to say that in the rational!Scar version, Simba would be dead. This is, in fact, what lions in the real world do. But seeing as the lions in The Lion King have human-level intelligence, it's probable that this would be socially unacceptable for Scar to openly do.
u/ishaan123 [+8] Sidebar Contestant (16 hours later)
Not strictly true - lions only kill cubs younger than nine months - the reason for the infanticide is not to eliminate competition but to get the lioness ovulating, and after nine months killing the cub wouldn't help matters so there is no reason to. Older cubs just get ousted. And of course, there's no real reason to kill Simba since lions don't typically inherit prides.
Besides, Scar and Mufasa were a sibling coalition - killing your nephew and sibling coalition partner is not adaptive. Since Scar is not physically imposing, Scar's pride is super vulnerable to attack by other males. BiologicallyTypical!Scar would have kept Mufasa around for defense purposes. Plus, a wild Scar would be uncertain about Simba's paternity - Simba could well be his own cub. So Scar's betrayal is, in fact, a betrayal even by wild lion standards.
And as long as we're talking about inaccuracies, Mufasa, being the more physically powerful lion, should have gotten the black mane. It's thought that dark manes are honest signals of fitness among lions because they're too warm.
u/PeridexisErrant [+12] put aside fear for courage, and death for life (9 hours later)
So have him murdered discreetly, duh.
That's the standard-issue solution to dynastic disputes among humans, and historically discretion was optional.
u/LordSwedish [+14] Q Continuum (10 hours later)
Isn't that what he did? He sent the hyenas after Simba and they just reported that he died or am I remembering that wrong?
u/PeridexisErrant [+12] put aside fear for courage, and death for life (10 hours later)
Not dead until you've seen the body, held an open-casket state funeral, and cremated him.
Trusting minions is a basic mistake.
u/Sylocat [+2] Canterlot Campaign (17 hours later)
Especially since it's based on Hamlet.
u/DCarrier [+2] (21 hours later)
It's socially acceptable for lions to openly kill and eat other intelligent animals. Why would infanticide be different?
u/ishaan123 [+6] Sidebar Contestant (17 hours later)
I think it was implied that Scar's hyenas sharing the hunting territory seriously contributed to the lion's problems during the drought. But Scar needed the hyenas to maintain power, so he was stuck with them.
But you know, even after all that, part of the tribe remained loyal to him and Scar's heir ultimately inherited the throne. All in all, I think Scar's scheming came out in net-positive, as far as Scar's own metrics of "positive" go... even if he didn't win everything forever, he got more than he would have gotten. Although he might have gotten an heir even otherwise.
u/Bowbreaker [+3] Solitary Locust (20 hours later)
I prefer to ignore the second movie. It just makes zero sense. Where did all the never seen before Scar-like lions come from and what were they banished for exactly?
u/Uncaffeinated [+11] (10 hours later)
I thought the implication was that Scar was such a horrible ruler that he even managed to mess up the weather somehow.
u/Bowbreaker [+25] Solitary Locust (13 hours later)
That's what his religious enemies would say, yes. You know, the kind that talk to their dead fathers in the sky.
u/TastyBrainMeats [+8] (12 hours later)
It is kind of implied to be a Fisher King scenario, combined with overhunting to feed the lions and hyenas.
u/mhd-hbd [+11] Writes 'The World is Your Oyster, The Universe is Your Namesake' (10 hours later)
“Maybe I should actually rule well — sure, there's effort involved; but if I can't even do it as well as my brother, what does that say about me?”
u/callmebrotherg [+31] now posting as /u/callmesalticidae (an hour later)
Wishing for more wishes was explicitly banned.
I'll give the Cruella one the benefit of the doubt, though to my understanding there's a difference between young animals and older ones when it comes to making things out of them.
Not sure if Gaston's obsession, in itself, counts as stupidity. As I saw it, the thing that made Belle attractive was that there was effort involved.
Ursula works.
Unless I'm forgetting something the Stepmother didn't think that Cinderella would have been picked anyway.
Wicked Queen works.
u/Meneth32 [+43] (4 hours later)
Wishing for more wishes was explicitly banned.
But wishing for more genies was allowed. At least he could turn himself into a genie, so why not turn someone else? Bam, three more wishes. Also, Jafar can mind-control people into making wishes for him, bypassing the three-per-person rule.
u/Teive [+5] (8 hours later)
Infinite genies means that the universe ends because it's tiredly full of genies
u/Plake_Z01 [+2] (14 hours later)
Only if the universe isn't infinite itself
u/literal-hitler [+2] (17 hours later)
Yeah, but are the genies more infinite or less infinite than the infinite universe?
u/AluminiumSandworm [+2] (17 hours later)
Only if genies have a finite and standardized size.
u/None [+2] (20 hours later)
Can't kill anybody, so can't end the universe. Oh wait.
You'd be surprised what you can live through? Oh my.
u/callmebrotherg [+2] now posting as /u/callmesalticidae (11 hours later)
Not certain that mind control would work. It wouldn't surprise me if you have to make a wish of your own volition. We never saw one way or another.
u/alexanderwales [+30] Time flies like an arrow (2 hours later)
Yeah, the Gaston one ... it's pretty clear that he doesn't find all women interchangeable. Solving his problem by changing what he values isn't really solving his problem at all.
u/Tholo [+16] (9 hours later)
I don't see this as changing his values, but as recognizing there are likely other women who could meet his values in the same way Belle does. I grant that the "million other hotties" probably don't fall in that bell curve, but if you handed me a random nerd who was hung up on a girl to the point of organizing a coordinated attack against her chosen partner and a nerd who, once rejected, looked for other women, I think it's clear who I would think is more rational.
That being said, I do like the Twisted interpretation, in which Gaston loved Belle for who she was, and saw her love for her captor as Stockholm Syndrome, and led the mob against a criminal.
u/TastyBrainMeats [+15] (12 hours later)
I don't see this as changing his values, but as recognizing there are likely other women who could meet his values in the same way Belle does. I grant that the "million other hotties" probably don't fall in that bell curve,
...or would it be a Belle curve?
u/failed_novelty [+5] (14 hours later)
He wanted to fall onto Belle's curves.
u/Sylocat [+2] Canterlot Campaign (18 hours later)
I don't see this as changing his values, but as recognizing there are likely other women who could meet his values in the same way Belle does.
The thing is, Gaston didn't really care about Belle because of any trait of hers, at least not by the end. At first he was just pompous and vain, he only went berserk when she turned him down because No One Says No To Gaston.
u/cavelioness [+18] (3 hours later)
Didn't Cruella want puppies because their fur and hides are softest? I'm pretty sure that was stated somewhere in the film. Also Dalmatians used to be kinda rare back when the film came out, the film was what propelled their popularity, so it's not like there were tons sitting around waiting to be adopted.
u/None [+11] (9 hours later)
[deleted]
u/cavelioness [+0] (9 hours later)
She just looked wealthy, she really spent all her money on fur coats? Perhaps word of what she wanted them for had gotten around and no one legit was willing to sell to her, and she wasn't willing to wait a year? Or perhaps I'm just making shit up because I haven't watched that movie since i was a kid.
u/Sylocat [+1] Canterlot Campaign (17 hours later)
I'm pretty sure that was stated somewhere in the film.
I remember it being stated in the live-action remake. I'm not sure about the animated film, though.
u/Blackdutchie [+3] (11 hours later)
Also how does a stepmother become part of the royal family when the stepdaughter marries? Seems to me that since she isn't the mother of the new queen, she doesn't get shit. Especially if the queen hates her.
u/360Saturn [+8] (16 hours later)
Broker a deal. If Cinderella identifies and works as her servant, technically she's property of the house. She could literally sell her either for money, or write into the contract that in exchange for the girl, the previous owner gets semi-royal privileges or a stipend. If Cinders is uneducated, starved, and worked to the bone, she's probably not going to have the gall to oppose her stepmother offering her freedom and marriage in exchange for signing her name to a piece of paper.
u/ChefTimmy [+3] (10 hours later)
Cruella wanted to skin them before they developed their spots.
u/failed_novelty [+4] (14 hours later)
No, she was really angry to see that the newborns lacked spots.
u/ChefTimmy [+1] (2 days later)
Oh, that's right; I remember that now.
u/Sylocat [+1] Canterlot Campaign (17 hours later)
though to my understanding there's a difference between young animals and older ones when it comes to making things out of them.
There's a big difference. I'm surprised they didn't just cite that in the film itself, though perhaps they thought it'd be too disturbing for kids.
u/DCarrier [+1] (21 hours later)
I've seen a discussion about Cruella on CollegeHumor that I can't find right now. They said that she was planning on raising the puppies and killing them as adults, but she was about to get caught, so she decided to just kill the ones she had so far. I assume she adopted as many as she could, but you can't adopt 101 dalmatians.
The Stepmother thinking her ugly daughters would get picked over her beautiful step daughter still counts as being stupid.
u/NotAHeroYet [+1] City of Angles Municipal Government (a day later)
I assumed that was narrative attractiveness, and not representive of actual beauty. In other words, the daughters might have been beautiful by her standards.
also, are there any mirrors for the image? the link doesn't work anymore.
u/LordSwedish [+10] Q Continuum (10 hours later)
These don't really work. Sure a rational Jafar might have decided to just remain as the most powerful person in the world and maybe even use his last wish to find where other genies are but you can't wish for more wishes and it doesn't make much sense that a genie has the power to make more genies.
Cruella de ville's plan was perfect and would have worked if it wasn't for the fact that animals can talk to each other and some random farm animals found the puppies.
Gaston liked Belle because she didn't immediately like him so changing that is changing what he's attracted to, not making him rational.
Wasn't the whole point about Ursula that she had to get Triton to give up his power willingly so that she could control the trident and not get blasted into tiny bits?
The stepmom in Cinderella woudn't have though Cinderella had a hope in hell unless she saw her all magic'd up.
The queen....why didn't she just stab Snow White?
Edit: While I stand by the others in general I have to admit that there are many ways for the Jafar scenario to work that requires very minor tweaks.
u/Sevireth [+18] (11 hours later)
doesn't make much sense that a genie has the power to make more genies.
However, that is precisely what happened
u/LordSwedish [+1] Q Continuum (12 hours later)
On one hand, I'm an idiot, but on the other he probably wouldn't be able to make genies out of nothing. He says that he can't raise the dead so I'm assuming that he can't create new people that are exactly the same as the dead people. If this is true he would have to have a person that he turns into a genie and in that case the genie would probably be cross with Jafar.
A rational person could still just make all their wishes very carefully worded so I suppose it works.
u/Tommy2255 [+2] (16 hours later)
in that case the genie would probably be cross with Jafar.
So is the first genie. But the whole reason Jafar's final wish doesn't work out in canon is that the servitude thing is part of being a genie in that universe. Making some random schmuck into a genie would have been a completely viable strategy for him. But I'm not sure he actually had sufficient information to know that that would work. After all, he didn't know that the wish to become a genie would backfire.
u/LordSwedish [+3] Q Continuum (16 hours later)
In general i don't think it's rational to have servants with infinite cosmic power that hate your guts.
u/None [+3] (20 hours later)
First wish: Don't hate my guts. You don't have to love me, but no betrayal.
u/LordSwedish [+1] Q Continuum (a day later)
Yeah, you're right. The funny thing is that it seems like Jafar would have figured all this out if he hadn't had so much fun crushing Aladdin.
u/DCarrier [+1] (21 hours later)
If this is true he would have to have a person that he turns into a genie and in that case the genie would probably be cross with Jafar.
Then he'll just have to word his wishes carefully. Also, he can't wish for true love, but he can still wish for someone to not be angry.
u/360Saturn [+3] (16 hours later)
If Ursula kills Eric and thus captures Ariel with a contract she can't fulfil, she can still work a hostage situation with Triton as she did in the actual film. His trident for his daughter back; Ursula still becomes queen of the sea.
If Cruella's all that rich, surely she could've hired better thugs and maybe a mansion with a cellar, or some kind of metal doors. Pretty sure the pups escaped in the first place through a hole in one of the walls.
u/LordSwedish [+3] Q Continuum (16 hours later)
Ursula didn't think humans could challenge her and were easily fooled. She was completely correct regarding this and if she hadn't grown huge everything would have worked out well. In hindsight the evil overlord rule " I will not turn into a snake. It never helps." should probably include the clause "I won't make myself enormous to the point where I'm not in my element anymore" as well.
Cruella...that's a good point. It should be noted that there aren't that many people you can approach with the idea "can you make a puppy proof room where we can gather almost a hundred stolen puppies that will be skinned" if you want it to remain a secret but it really could have been done better.
u/None [+5] (20 hours later)
Except that genies absolutely can make new genies, which is where new genies come from. If Jafar can wish for Genie to make Jafar a genie, he could wish for Genie to make ALADDIN a genie instead. And then use his first wish from Aladdin to make Aladdin perfectly loyal, and then his second to make Jasmine a genie, and her first to make her perfectly loyal, and so on netting +1 wish per transformed person. If he really wanted, he could use his third wishes on freeing all those genies, who would still remain loyal, and would retain however much power Genie had after being freed which was not a small amount. But now he has armies of them.
u/NotAHeroYet [+1] City of Angles Municipal Government (a day later)
Yes, but it's a two possibility path, and since he has one wish left, he can't have both. either all genies are inherently bound unless clearly specified otherwise, in which case- wish for your nearest enemy to become a genie, assuming you use one wish to keep them from betraying you, one to keep the chain going, you turn a one wish profit, at the cost of increasing the genies in the world by one. or genies aren't bound by definition, and wishing to become a genie is optimal, also, note genies seem to have absurd lifespans, so it might be a net gain for jafar anyways. infinite wishes are nice, but risking your enemy recieving that is not happening. he chose the gamble that gave him personal power, rather than the gamble that didn't. plus, he doesn't know the rules genies play by, and he can't be sure. genie sure isn't gonna tell him.
u/None [+1] (a day later)
I'm not sure. Both Jafar-genie and Genie's first encounter with their wishmakers was a song and dance routine where they had to explain the rules. I think genies might actually be bound to honestly answer rules questions. And Jafar-genie showed us that they certainly don't have to be loyal and can twist the wish if they hate you.
u/NotAHeroYet [+1] City of Angles Municipal Government (a day later)
Is "are all genies bound by rules?" a rules question, though? would it even give the right answer? "does every genie play by your rules?". He knew what Genie's rules were, but not if every genie had to play by them. it turns out they do, but... Does Genie have to tell other genie's rules?
If an AI has to tell you what rules it's bound by, it doesn't have to tell you the rules other AIs are bound by.
u/TastyBrainMeats [+3] (12 hours later)
Snow White is younger and probably far stronger (remember all those chores?). Physical confrontation is risky.
u/Tommy2255 [+8] (16 hours later)
So give her the apple first. Then, instead of walking away, stab her and then walk away. The point is you don't dispose of an enemy by just putting them to sleep when there's nothing (including moral objections) stopping you from solving the problem permanently.
u/DCarrier [+1] (21 hours later)
Especially in the original version. The apple was her third attempt. She asked the hunter who was supposed to kill her originally to bring back the heart. Why not do it herself?
u/Tommy2255 [+1] (23 hours later)
It's been a long time since I read the original, what was try number 2? I think the huntsman bit was in the movie anyway, although I don't think they mentioned that he brought back a pig's heart in the movie (and to be honest I don't remember the movie very clearly either).
u/DCarrier [+3] (23 hours later)
I guess the first was the huntsman, but I thought of that separately. After Snow White grew up and the mirror told the queen about her, first she sold her laces and tied them tight enough for Snow White to suffocate, then the dwarfs found her, loosened them, and revived her. Then the queen sold her a poisoned comb, and the dwarfs revived her by taking it out of her hair. Then she tried the poisoned apple, and the dwarfs couldn't revive her. A wandering prince said that he fell in love with her and asked for her body for reasons that I'm sure were completely wholesome, and then dropped the casket which made the bite of the apple fall out of her throat and woke her up. And then she was so thankful for being saved she never thought to wonder what the prince was planning to do with her body.
u/gabbalis [+1] (a day later)
poisoned comb
...
Who comes up with these things?
u/Tommy2255 [+1] (a day later)
Drunk guys making up stories as a passtime at the bar. The Grimm brothers weren't in the business of recording children's tales.
u/GeeJo [+1] Custom Flair (4 days later)
William the Conquerer (of 1066 fame) is believed to have once killed a rival via poisoned hunting gloves.
u/TastyBrainMeats [+0] (a day later)
Well, sure, but if you're going to put that much thought into it, why not just reexamine your goals, too?
Expending that much effort to murder someone who has never posed a threat to you, simply for the sake of your vanity, is the height of foolishness.
u/NotAHeroYet [+2] City of Angles Municipal Government (2 days later)
Or, assuming you won't, stop trying to fight lethally using hufflepuff bones, and give her a few hideous scars or burns. there, mission acomplished.
u/TastyBrainMeats [+2] (2 days later)
I was thinking more "make peace and ask her for beauty tips", but sure.
u/LordSwedish [+3] Q Continuum (12 hours later)
Yeah but if you go up to Bruce Lee and plunge a knife into his back several times while his back is turned the physical difference doesn't matter much.
u/TastyBrainMeats [+2] (12 hours later)
I did say "risky", not "impossible".
u/LordSwedish [+10] Q Continuum (15 hours later)
Well at least she could have stabbed her post-apple.
u/lahwran_ [+2] (11 days later)
it's gone, anyone have any idea where I could find this again?
u/jldew [+2] (12 days later)
http://www.collegehumor.com/post/7032832/if-disney-villains-were-smart < That's the original college humor post.
u/masterax2000 [+1] Chaos Legion (28 days later)
It got removed. :(
u/jldew [+1] (29 days later)
If you sort by top, the comment above yours is the link.