26 KiB
[BST] You are the only liar in the world.
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Author: u/None *
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URL: https://www.reddit.com/r/rational/comments/3o4gg3/bst_you_are_the_only_liar_in_the_world/
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Score: 38
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Created: 2015-10-09T17:26:34
Post:
You can lie. This is special. Nobody else can.
It's not as simple as that, of course. Liars have existed in the past. Everyone knows about them. They tend to climb and climb, drunk on power, and then their lies crash down around them.
No-one ever says it, but they must be thinking it: Of course, the successful liars would never be found.
Here is what truth is: If you say it (and aren't a liar like you), you believe it is the truth. If you swear it, you are obligated to attempt to achieve it to the best of your ability - physically obligated, not just "I should really" obligated.
You can't do this. You can lie. You can say, "I'll get you that paper by Thursday", and then not actually try to get that paper by Thursday. And you can say "I couldn't do it" and they don't really suspect you of lying, because liars are not Nice People. Not like you
Or, at least, seem to be. You can lie, after all.
So, yep. You're a baseline human in a world of people with write access to their own utility functions and an inviolable compulsion to tell the truth.
How do you exploit this? How does this bite you in the ass? What does society (apart from you) look like?
Comments:
u/Rillet [+21] (50 minutes later)
u/None [+14] (55 minutes later)
There are no new ideas, just new people :(
u/JackStargazer [+15] Primordial Apologist (7 hours later)
Lorite Philosopy.
"The basis of the Lorite order is Saunt Lora's Proposition which states that all possible ideas have already been found, in other words, there is nothing new to discover. The Proposition itself is considered to be the Last Idea, although after the death of Saunt Lora, one of her fids showed that her proposition had itself been expressed 4000 years earlier."
u/Arandur [+4] (8 hours later)
Anathem has to be my favorite book. That or House of Leaves.
u/Rillet [+6] (an hour later)
u/None [+3] (2 hours later)
Everything ever written is just dictionary remix.
u/Chosen_Pun [+1] The Chosen Ones (17 hours later)
But! Every word is a made up word.
It all started somewhere.
u/None [+1] (17 hours later)
But, but, the word was already there in the beginning. Ἐν ἀρχῇ ἦν ὁ λόγος, ...
u/kaukamieli [+1] (a day later)
Nope, words get created in the language faster than they go in the dictionaries!
u/SvalbardCaretaker [+16] Mouse Army (an hour later)
Well it makes for a society a great deal more productive than ours right now. Everyone is more healthy, caring, and -of course- more exploited to a degree. Also everyone is better at polit-speak than Hillary Clinton - if you stil want to be able to communicate without committing you need to be extremely careful what you say.
"I will go the gym every day for a year for at least one hour". BAM everyone is fit.
I will have that paper ready for you on tuesday. - bam no more missed deadlines-
I will not every again steal - bam no prisons-
I will not order my military to fire nuclear weapon on your country unless you do any of the following: -not reciprocating, defecting etc etc- bam no nuclear war
I'd disagree with this being able to write your utility function... Saying "I will be attracted to mewtwo-kin starting from next friday" does not mean you will be attracted, only that you will make an attempt at conversion- by reading porn/whatever- but it is no more or less successful than our world today is.
So liars... They probably get caught early in life, and brandmarked- and then special pressganged into roles that need liars- giant corporation negotiations, war negotiations etc- so you'd first have to avoid that.
u/None [+6] (2 hours later)
"I will go to the gym every day for a year for at least one hour" and now you're obligated to stay within a day's travel of a gym.
"I will have that paper ready for you on Tuesday" and now you can't ask for an extension when you realize that the task requires more time than that.
u/Nepene [+8] (2 hours later)
I imagine after a few heart attacks and accidents teachers would stop pressuring their students to make promises like these.
u/RMcD94 [+3] (7 hours later)
If you're dead you aren't going to the gym either for a year
u/Nepene [+5] (14 hours later)
Suppose if the person stops sleeping they have a 1\1000 chance of death. If they don't stop sleeping they have a 999/1000 chance of failing. Their only choice is to risk the death.
If 100,000 students do this per year 100 students, probably smart scholarly ones, die. That's an order of magnitude greater than the number of deaths from shark attacks worldwide. A major issue.
u/Bowbreaker [+2] Solitary Locust (10 hours later)
I don't think the person who makes the promise becomes more capable at keeping it. He just tries at the best of his ability. Overworking often is the most straightforward way that people will think of.
u/SvalbardCaretaker [+4] Mouse Army (2 hours later)
Thats the idea. Of course any real inhabitant of that universe would learn- as predicted- to use tons of caveats etc.
And lets face it, most college students who need extensions are victims of procrastination, which this universe just magically circumvents.
u/DCarrier [+28] (3 hours later)
Once someone is old enough to make contracts, they are coerced into pledging their undying loyalty to the Empire. With that many people trying that hard to make sure the Emperor is happy, I'm not going to outsmart them all. I'm doomed. Once I gain the ability to lie, people notice my productivity suddenly drop, and have me tested. I'm tortured into saying some trivial falsehood, and since I don't have the willpower to resist torture, I'm caught and executed.
u/Bowbreaker [+3] Solitary Locust (10 hours later)
If this truth thing has existed since the existence of language then won't culture itself have developed in a way that avoids forcing people in to contracts so easily?
u/DCarrier [+8] (10 hours later)
Why? A culture like the one I gave seems like it would be pretty successful. You could avoid contracts by promising not to make promises, but another culture that promises undying loyalty would be able to win a war.
Come to think of it, you could just promise not to pledge your loyalty if they try to torture it out of you. I don't think it would be difficult to get kids to make the promise, though, so such a culture would be stable, and they would be able to dominate a culture that doesn't use promises.
u/NotAHeroYet [+14] City of Angles Municipal Government (an hour later)
I try to avoid lying whenever possible. I may share with a single trusted confidant my ability to lie, after getting them to promise not to tell, and talk with them about it from that point on. I record the promise, just in case they, too, are a liar, in which case we have a mutually assured destruction. I then tell them that I made such a recording, either after the promise, but before I tell them my secret. I always ask them for guidance before any lie. lying is like necromancy (well, most representations,) or diabolism... it can be used well, but generally shouldn't be treated lightly.
I try to avoid using my powers, prefering to use wording where even if it is a lie, it could be mistaken for twisty wording that is technichally true. there's probably a concept like this- not liars, but twisties, or some similar, but better, name. people who try to make you think they said something, but actually said something completely different, much like the fae or characters in pact.
generally, I would avoid making promises. I would lie about the past on occasion, but never about the future- getting that paper by thursday is difficult. If I made a promise, it would be as vauge as possible. not "I'll get you that paper by thursday" but "I'll get you that paper as soon as practical, without interfering with my ability to function on the other tasks" or "as soon as the other deadlines are fulfilled." or just "I can get you that paper by wednesday".
I would claim that my hesitation to make specific promises is because I don't like being dragged into awkward situations, like pulling an all-nighter four days straight to finish said paper. given that honest people actually don't like stuff like this, i wouldn't be looked at that oddly- everyone hesitates to commit, genuinely pausing. it's ingrained, and after a few slip ups in elementary, middle and high school, most people don't make the mistake again. people include a lot of conditions in their promises for that reason.
I suspect that there will be people who suspect i'm a liar, but given that i'm the only one known in 7 billion, they may hesitate, excusing it away, or react the same way they would if they told someone else i'm an alien.
(my family probably knows about the inability to pre-commit, though... 5 year olds have poor judgement. unless kids are generally exempt, which would kinda make sense... commiting to do something literally impossible may make you push yourself far further than you should. maybe self-deception works, or your body shuts down automatically before when ours would if we tried that? or there's just a precommitance every child is told to make, where if their path to the commitment seriously endangers their health, they won't do it,and this commitment last until they're [16-18?])
u/Chosen_Pun [+2] The Chosen Ones (17 hours later)
there's probably a concept like this- not liars, but twisties, or some similar, but better, name.
I'm partial to "Jedi Truth"
u/MugaSofer [+6] (3 hours later)
The "write access to their utility functions" - their economic utility functions, not their stated preferences - is a superpower in it's own right, and maybe a better one than mine. I'm pretty lazy.
Presumably delusional people still exist, so I can't claim just anything and have people believe it. I'd probably still have trouble starting a religion or becoming President.
This society would have no need of credentials of any kind, which means I can pretend to be a cop or any other kind of official.
I suspect most people would abuse the ability to edit their utility function and mess themselves up. I don't just mean simple screwups, I mean things like suicide bombers, I'd-kill-for-you true love, and deontological rules. So this society has to have found a way around that; it might be as simple as an unrealistic oath simply feeling like a lie - "huh, I guess I actually don't care that much, sorry" - or it might not have evolved into anything even vaguely resembling our culture, something more like a society of self-modifying AIs, in which case I'm not going to be much help.
I can probably scam people out of their money fairly easily, if I'm careful. Or murder them.
It's probably much easier to argue people into things. I don't even need to lie, really. Just ask them what they really care about, why they really object to something, why they really believe what they believe. Then construe or twist the evidence and fast-talk that thing away, or into supporting me instead.
Depending on how humble I'm feeling, I could set up a bunch of Effective Altruists who've sworn oaths, or a bunch of EAs who've sworn oaths and will obey me without question.
There's probably a good way to hack this into really good scientific/rationalist "cells" of a few people, who've sworn to listen to each other, pay attention to niggling doubts, try and test their beliefs, maximize utility, stuff like that. Basically a Bayesian built out of three or four people.
u/Bowbreaker [+2] Solitary Locust (10 hours later)
It's probably much easier to argue people into things. I don't even need to lie, really. Just ask them what they really care about, why they really object to something, why they really believe what they believe.
Why would they tell you?
u/Chosen_Pun [+1] The Chosen Ones (17 hours later)
Promise them it's really really important that they tell you. Probably while impersonating an authority figure. At least until you find that you've become an authority figure.
Didn't you hear? There's a Liar about. We're conducting random screening. It's all standard procedure. Just answer the questions.
Oh! Your results show that you'd be perfect for our organization. Have some light reading, see what we're all about.
u/Bowbreaker [+1] Solitary Locust (a day later)
I don't even need to lie, really.
Seems that you do.
u/Chosen_Pun [+1] The Chosen Ones (a day later)
...Not really?
There is a Liar about.
Potential converts may well be selected at random, at least in part. (edit: and I threw that line in at the time to fit the genre more than as a practical suggestion. If they were selected based on specific criteria you researched ahead of time, you can tell them that, too. Or skip the justification entirely, whatever, they're still at very least as gullible as real-world people.)
How "standard" a procedure is is fairly subjective; it's certainly true enough for our purposes once you've done it a few times.
And that last line is of course optional in the case that a subject is, for some reason, not perfect for the organization (by way of being a normal, programmable member of productive society). How you cover your tracks in such a case is left as an excercise for the reader.
All this to say that once you have some followers, you don't even need to recruit personally. You have people for that!
u/None [+10] (10 hours later)
I'm in a world where everyone tells the truth? How do I exploit it?
By living there. Mission fucking accomplished.
u/storybookknight [+5] (8 hours later)
I feel like a world where nobody could lie would express itself more as honesty than as physical coercion. If the world is still full of humans, they will fall prey to things like the planning fallacy all the time.
So either declarative statements like "I will get you this by Friday" are commonly understood to mean that this is your intent and your best guess of what will happen - or languages evolve such that "It is my belief that given an expected sequence of events and accurate knowledge of both my own capabilities and the difficulties ahead that this will occur on Friday" will take much less time to say!
If you plan to trick someone into saying "this will be done by Friday" and they had a normal human understanding of risk and chance, consider that for most people a strong declarative statement like that would actually be a lie!
u/None [+1] (19 hours later)
[deleted]
u/NotAHeroYet [+1] City of Angles Municipal Government (22 hours later)
The binding- or as binding as possible- is a seperate effect, but he did say the effect exists- you will make a good faith effort to fulfuil all promises. it might be only good faith effort, though, and not just seriously try.
u/Bowbreaker [+6] Solitary Locust (11 hours later)
The worst thing for normal people living in this world is that they are essentially slaves to their past selves. Imagine if you promise to support what seems the greatest cause and then learn that said cause is crap. Or if you say you'll do something impossible because you don't yet know it is impossible. Or worse yet, something that was really easy but has become really hard ("I'll kiss your cousin Jimmy tomorrow" and cousin Jimmy drowns in the middle of the Atlantic).
How does memory work? Can you forget parts of your promises over time? If someone has amnesia will he try to fulfill all his past promises without knowing what the hell he is doing?
Honestly, it seems like every promise about the future will make you into an automaton. Because fulfilling "I will give you that paper on Thursday" makes you not only write it till Thursday but also try to evade every mishap that could happen and minimize the chance that the paper will never reach its destination. That includes things like making as many copies as possible, minimizing the chances of both your own death and that of your recipient in any way you can think of and probably hovering near the recipient so you can give him the paper on 00:00:01 Tuesday.
I think you should rethink how the future statements part works.
u/-main [+4] (13 hours later)
"I have a marginally better investment strategy than anyone else, and can provide a better return on long term investments."
"I have promised to not reveal my methods, as that would mean giving up my competitive advantage."
"I also agree to the terms of the contract."
"No, officer, I have nothing to do with that person. We are not related in any way."
"My name is Alex, and I inherited this pile of money from a deceased relative."
In a world where lying is impossible, the law will change to reflect that. It's probably legally impossible to convict a secret lier for a crime - if you say that you didn't do it, the law sees that as very strong evidence that you actually didn't.
Contract law would reflect that, too. Agree to a contract verbally, and everyone will trust that you'll keep to the terms.
Plus, a regular person might literally be bound to be unable to explain or justify their actions.
You can also impersonate anyone - ID means asking someone to introduce themselves. Identity checking means asking a short series of carefully engineered questions, and arresting those who refuse to answer.
All combined, you could rob banks just by talking to them. You are also the only person in the world who can be a spy - an amazing advantage in any kind of conflict. Don't worry about being bad at it, because counterintelligence doesn't exist and no one can doubt anything you say.
With money, military victory, and the ability to betray others, you will be able to gain power and set yourself up to rule.
However... Compared to others, you're lazy, weak willed, and unable to truly commit. You might get stuck with bad habits, incorrect beliefs, or unwanted emotions. You will never receive any help for or even understanding of these problems.
u/kaukamieli [+2] (a day later)
"Contract law would reflect that, too. Agree to a contract verbally, and everyone will trust that you'll keep to the terms."
NONONONONONONONONONO! DO NOT DO THAT!
The other party claims the other thing, and everyone will know one of the two is lying!
u/-main [+1] (a day later)
Right. You'd only be able to pull that trick once.... It'd be a case of break contact, take money, and run. Then see the parts about evading the law.... But it'll be a lot trickier if they know they're looking for a lier.
u/ajuc [+5] (16 hours later)
Thw society and conversation rules would look very alien in this world, and you will have hard time adjusting if you just materialized there. It would be a huge culture shock, you will seem crazy. You will casualy ask questions that force people into months-long comitements, you will tell much too much about yourself and your plans, like you are some superhuman selfassured boasting jerk.
If you grew up there - you will probably be a loser - just because every other kid HAD to do their homework, and HAD to learn for exam, and you didn't. Are there even exams and do they ever check homework? It may be very late when they discover how far you are behind, because the society isn't prepared for kids that can pretend they do their work. In this respect your special ability is a huge disadvantage - everybody will be better at everything than you, unless you are 100% motivated to be good at that thing.
Anyway - at some point you will fall behind, so you'll probably learn to give good excuses, and eventually nothing external will work, so you will probably be considered dumber than average.
Also there is no fiction teaching people how to succesfuly deceive others on this world (and probably no games with imperfect knowledge and bluffing) so you will still be quite naive compared to a human from our world.
I'd say you should pracits small scale deception, and then completely change einvoronment to leave back your "loser" image and all suspictions people who knew you have about you, before you use your deception skills on fresh victims.
And then you won't need anything exceptional - any con trick that works on our world would probably work there better.
u/Rhamni [+3] Aspiring author (2 hours later)
So, do little children behave, or is it almost impossible to get them to promise not to steal cookies, etc?
u/NotAHeroYet [+1] City of Angles Municipal Government (4 hours later)
little children who genuinely intended not to steal cookies at the time of saying won't steal cookies. little children who did not will not give the promise in the first place.
u/Rhamni [+2] Aspiring author (4 hours later)
This society is going to need to institute some serious penalties for anyone who asks others to dedicate their whole life to a particular cause.
u/NotAHeroYet [+3] City of Angles Municipal Government (4 hours later)
Yes. or maybe it'll be standard for children to promise to make no more promises until they're thirteen. and then, in a seperate promise, to make no promises that could last more than a week until they're [age of majority].
u/FuguofAnotherWorld [+3] Roll the Dice on Fate (5 hours later)
Well first off, I would be really, really fucking careful about it. Otherwise they'll put me on the news as The Liar and parents will tell their kids about me. Of course, that wouldn't be the end of the the world because I could make a stage show where I lie about stuff. Not an ideal end though.
u/narfanator [+2] (7 hours later)
Check out a book called "Embassy Town". It's not exactly about this, but it is kind of about this.
Also, subtle use: "I know that technology X is possible. Will you go make it?"
u/None [+2] (a day later)
It really depends on how the power works. Does your brain chemistry change to give you magical willpower when you promise something, or does it become perfectly calibrated before you say something so that instead of saying "I'll finish this paper" you say "I'll have a 20% chance of finishing this paper", or can you tell the future, so you can only say "I will finish this paper" if it will happen in the future.
In the first instance, the world is a bloody, barren place. Horrific things are done routinely to keep utterances. In the second instance, everybody is optimized to their ideal career, and society is way more productive than it is now.
u/ben_sphynx [+1] (2 hours later)
Can anyone say 'This statement is a lie'?
If you write it down, can anyone else read it? What happens if they try?
u/None [+4] (2 hours later)
No. People aren't prohibited from telling lies, they're obligated to tell the truth.
u/NotAHeroYet [+1] City of Angles Municipal Government (6 hours later)
People can read it, but only a liar can say that, most likely. if they believe the statement is true, then they believe it's a lie because 'this statement's a lie', so they can't say it. if they believe the statement is a lie, they can't say it.
u/Chosen_Pun [+2] The Chosen Ones (17 hours later)
What if they can't or don't examine the statement, and just assume it evaluates as true?
People can still be wrong, right?
u/NotAHeroYet [+1] City of Angles Municipal Government (22 hours later)
Yes, if they think it evaluates as true, and only if that. I didn't think of that.
u/ben_sphynx [+1] (an hour later)
It's possible that anyone can learn to lie simply by saying 'In the future, I will lie about things'.
u/gbear605 [+3] history’s greatest story (2 hours later)
That wouldn't work, just like saying 'In the future, I will never die' wouldn't work.
u/NotAHeroYet [+1] City of Angles Municipal Government (an hour later)
no, you have to believe it, so that only works if you'd believe that it works. i don't think it'd magicly let you lie, either, even if you did say it. You'd just try and fail, occasionally, or frequently, or very frequently, or constantly, hurling yourself into commitments and statements you really believe, but think you don't.
u/ben_sphynx [+0] (an hour later)
Is your name Joseph Smith, or maybe Muhammad?
u/holomanga [+4] (an hour later)
I'm pretty sure everyone around Joseph Smith and Muhammad was able to lie too.
u/ben_sphynx [+3] (2 hours later)
I think my point is that if one wanted to start a religion, it might be a lot easier if everyone believes you.
u/NotAHeroYet [+1] City of Angles Municipal Government (4 hours later)
everyone believes you believe. belief in belief, of a sort. they believe you aren't lying through your teeth, but they might decide you're delusional. still easier, but easier != easy.
u/Calamitizer [+0] Shears (an hour later)
Do I know I'm the only liar currently alive? Or is this prompt basically "you are a liar in such a world"?
u/None [+1] (an hour later)
Well, you've never met another one that you know of. They've definitely existed in the past.