31 KiB
Pokemon: The Origin of Species, Chapter 25 - The Art of Persuasion, Part II
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Author: u/DaystarEld Pokémon Professor*
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URL: https://www.fanfiction.net/s/9794740/25/Pokemon-The-Origin-of-Species
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Score: 43
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Created: 2015-11-01T12:32:50
Post:
Comments:
u/4t0m [+11] Chaos Legion (2 hours later)
Yay! I'm always super excited about the first of the month because it means a new chapter. For some reason I ended up writing some thoughts down as I was noting typos, so here they are.
- The negotiation scene worked really well for me. Everything was set up and the payoff was great. I was surprised at the extent to which I was feeling the tension.
- Leaf's storyline hasn't been as interesting for me, but perhaps others are having a different experience. Her conversation with Laura had me wondering why she thinks her first article is going to go viral. This seems at least as bad as Blue's overconfidence, but I expect she'll be right for narrative reasons. It may be my fault as a reader, but the stakes for her story seem lower to me than those of Red and Blue, and I can't remember why she thinks her article is going to make the world a better place. While I'm complaining I guess I'll mention that Laura's advice last time bothered me. Like, it seemed like she was advising her to be as click-baity/pathos-heavy/anger-mongering/"dark side rationality" as possible. I may be misremembering a bit.
- As for Red's experiment, how is he getting people to participate? Maybe make it more clear if he's just asking them for a favor, or if the diagnostic data is enough of an incentive. Also, should he be concerned about Ranna being able to see the spinarak, and the possibility that unrelated things like the size of the pokemon will contaminate the data?
"He spent more hours than he could count over the past week training his shiftry virtually, giving it plenty of positive memories to offset the negative ones it surely has of him. There are prerecorded simulations to choose from on the dex, and Blue went through them in a particular order: first Blue finding Shiftry alone and hurt, then slowly nursing him back to health, little by little. They wouldn't replace the memories it already has, but they would offer a counterargument, hopefully confuse it enough so that it doesn't automatically want to attack him despite the routine anti-human-aggression programs."
Holy shit, man... Does this come across to anyone else as kind of "dark". I guess it isn't actually that objectionable, but it somehow seems way more screwed up to me than when he dismembered it in order to catch it.
In general I think you do a really good job with conversations. I like that you don't include a bunch of "he said's", "she replied", and so on, and I'm never confused about who's speaking. Rarely does someone start monologuing.
And finally, a lot of the time I feel like the use of present tense is ill-suited to the kind of story you're telling, with its focus on planning, research, writing, etc. You make it work pretty well, and in some cases it seems like the right choice, but if you ever start a similar fic I feel like you should seriously consider getting used to writing in the past tense. Maybe people disagree with me on this though.
u/C_Densem [+9] LessWrong (than usual) (5 hours later)
Some counter thoughts - not for the sake of fighting, but for consensus :)
- Leaf's storyline hasn't been as interesting for me, but perhaps others are having a different experience. Her conversation with Laura had me wondering why she thinks her first article is going to go viral. This seems at least as bad as Blue's overconfidence, but I expect she'll be right for narrative reasons. It may be my fault as a reader, but the stakes for her story seem lower to me than those of Red and Blue, and I can't remember why she thinks her article is going to make the world a better place.
She has about as much reason to think that her first article will go viral as Blue has to think that his first gym challenge would be a success, or that Red would succeed in his first research venture. This is very much a "they all try their first thing" chapter, and the stakes are fairly low accordingly. None are likely to change the world by a great deal - but it's a learning experience for them. Also notably, our protagonists are very much not guaranteed success - what an odd notion. Blue already actually failed his first attempt. But he learned from it and is moving on, a little wiser.
- While I'm complaining I guess I'll mention that Laura's advice last time bothered me. Like, it seemed like she was advising her to be as click-baity/pathos-heavy/anger-mongering/"dark side rationality" as possible. I may be misremembering a bit.
Laura's advice to Green is straight rhetoric, almost directly out of Aristotle. Ethos, pathos, logos and so forth. And she's dead on, too. People aren't persuaded by rational arguments as much as we might prefer, so this sort of thing is necessary when writing. Also, most of her salient advice seemed to be "go find out what the opposition actually believes" and "don't shit upon it while trying to persuade them". Sensible.
- As for Red's experiment, how is he getting people to participate? Maybe make it more clear if he's just asking them for a favor, or if the diagnostic data is enough of an incentive. Also, should he be concerned about Ranna being able to see the spinarak, and the possibility that unrelated things like the size of the pokemon will contaminate the data?
Lots of formal research, at least on the undergraduate level, works on a "hey wanna come do science for an hour?" basis. I see adverts for studies looking for volunteers with some frequency around campus (I attend a university that does research). People like helping out and they get a kick out of doing science. Also, I would hope that if possible, Red is keeping Ranma away from the spinarak. Or perhaps blindfolded? Do psychic attacks require line of sight?
Alternately, he might be too caught up in the excitement and be getting garbage data for that same reason. We'll have to keep reading and find out. He's not going to win just because he's narrated, after all.
- Holy shit, man... Does this come across to anyone else as kind of "dark". I guess it isn't actually that objectionable, but it somehow seems way more screwed up to me than when he dismembered it in order to catch it.
That's incredibly dark, yes. But it seems like Blue's whole arc is figuring out how to amass power and victories while not outwardly seeming as calculating as he is inside. You'd also have a fair amount of support for a "take over the world while not turning evil" theme. Especially since as he is now, he seems to be losing that particular battle more than he's winning it.
- In general I think you do a really good job with conversations. I like that you don't include a bunch of "he said's", "she replied", and so on, and I'm never confused about who's speaking. Rarely does someone start monologuing.
Agreed, and this is something I still have issues with. Mad respek.
- And finally, a lot of the time I feel like the use of present tense is ill-suited to the kind of story you're telling, with its focus on planning, research, writing, etc. You make it work pretty well, and in some cases it seems like the right choice, but if you ever start a similar fic I feel like you should seriously consider getting used to writing in the past tense. Maybe people disagree with me on this though.
Not much to say here except that it doesn't tweak me as much as it tweaks you. Maybe it's just personal preference? Or maybe I'm uncultured swine :D
u/4t0m [+4] Chaos Legion (6 hours later)
Disagreement/multiple perspectives is/are important, especially in feedback! :)
She has about as much reason to think that her first article will go viral as Blue has to think that his first gym challenge would be a success, or that Red would succeed in his first research venture... None are likely to change the world by a great deal - but it's a learning experience for them. Also notably, our protagonists are very much not guaranteed success - what an odd notion.
I agree that she has basically as much reason to expect success as Blue did (though actually she should have less unless she has evidence that she is some sort of journalism prodigy). Red's current goal is pretty reasonable I think: a modest investigation of a potential phenomenon, nothing groundbreaking. Blue lost, and this was good for the story, but I don't think Leaf will "lose" in the sense of her story failing to go viral. Maybe she'll lose some other way (like the backlash being worse than expected, or nobody wanting to publish it for political reasons, such that she has to find some other way of spreading it), but I don't think her story will be met with a lack of interest. It just doesn't seem like the sort of thing that is going to happen (though of course I may be wrong).
Laura's advice to Green is straight rhetoric, almost directly out of Aristotle. Ethos, pathos, logos and so forth. And she's dead on, too. People aren't persuaded by rational arguments as much as we might prefer, so this sort of thing is necessary when writing. Also, most of her salient advice seemed to be "go find out what the opposition actually believes" and "don't shit upon it while trying to persuade them". Sensible.
Yeah. As I said it may just be me misremembering. I ended up skimming it due to frustration, and then forcing myself to read it, so you're probably right. I did have that reaction though. Maybe I just don't like journalism :). It's harder for me to empathize with someone who's being trained to use convincing rather than rational arguments (especially when it's such an idealistic character who keeps talking about changing the world).
Lots of formal research, at least on the undergraduate level, works on a "hey wanna come do science for an hour?" basis. I see adverts for studies looking for volunteers with some frequency around campus (I attend a university that does research). People like helping out and they get a kick out of doing science. Also, I would hope that if possible, Red is keeping Ranma away from the spinarak. Or perhaps blindfolded? Do psychic attacks require line of sight? Alternately, he might be too caught up in the excitement and be getting garbage data for that same reason. We'll have to keep reading and find out. He's not going to win just because he's narrated, after all.
Most of the research at my university includes a payment for the subject, usually like $10/hour or a giftcard or something. But anyway, I'm not saying that things are unrealistic or bad, just that they are unclear. If they are doing it free, maybe a throwaway line somewhere to that effect would be good. It isn't mentioned that Ranna can't see the spinarak, so I'm wondering if that's an intentional or unintentional omission. If it's unintentional, then perhaps it should be added.
That's incredibly dark, yes. But it seems like Blue's whole arc is figuring out how to amass power and victories while not outwardly seeming as calculating as he is inside. You'd also have a fair amount of support for a "take over the world while not turning evil" theme. Especially since as he is now, he seems to be losing that particular battle more than he's winning it.
Totally agreed. I wasn't saying it was bad at all, just noting my reaction. Though I was reacting to how casually the line incorporated into the text compared to the treatment of some of the other dark stuff.
u/DaystarEld [+7] Pokémon Professor (8 hours later)
Enjoyed reading this exchange and most things I wanted to say have been said by /u/C_Densem, so I'll just respond here :)
It's harder for me to empathize with someone who's being trained to use convincing rather than rational arguments (especially when it's such an idealistic character who keeps talking about changing the world).
I definitely get where you're coming from, but one thing to keep in mind is that sometimes rational arguments aren't convincing, because people are not always rational. If you intend to change people's minds but forget that, you're simply not going to have as much success as taking it into account and working with what you have... which isn't particularly rational itself.
On top of that, and probably more importantly, rational arguments aren't convincing because people have different values. And this makes up the bulk of Laura's advice to Leaf: if you just assert the things you believe are true, you're going to get mostly just people who already agree with you to nod along. If you want to convince others who disagree with you, you have to not just work around the question of "Do they have the same knowledge I do about the world," but also "What lens are they looking at that knowledge through?"
A good teacher knows the material and can explain it. A great teacher knows the materiel and can explain it in a way that engages their audience.
What I would label "dark side" persuasion is taking advantage of the cognitive heuristics and biases we all share in a way that deepens or strengthens them. This is why Laura warned Leaf about, for example, using tribalism: it's far too strong a bias to play with lightly or carelessly.
If they are doing it free, maybe a throwaway line somewhere to that effect would be good.
I think I mentioned in an earlier chapter that Red doesn't have the money to pay people, so he's basically offering the data from the pokedex as incentive, along with the usual "volunteer for science!" thing. I'll edit to reiterate it in this chapter too :)
It isn't mentioned that Ranna can't see the spinarak, so I'm wondering if that's an intentional or unintentional omission. If it's unintentional, then perhaps it should be added.
Ranna can see the spinarak, as it requires line of sight. Red did not consider this as a potential complication to the research, since he didn't consider why it would be an influencing factor.
u/4t0m [+3] Chaos Legion (9 hours later)
Yeah, I totally get it. I guess this kind of rhetorical talent doesn't seem "cool" to me, even if it is realistic and instrumentally rational for the character, even though other kinds of cleverness/savvy/even deception do (hard to account for what determines my thoughts here).
I will make one last note that people having different values is not on its own an indictment of purely "rational" persuasive writing. Either you need to change a person's values (which should mean appeal to stronger values that they do hold, and demonstrating a conflict) or show that they are wrong about what their values imply. Both of these seem totally within the realm of "rational" discourse. You just need to find where the common ground is. If those don't work, then there really is a difference of values/opinions. You shouldn't be able to convince them, only trick them. This kind of "dark side" persuasion decouples the discourse from the truth. You have to just trust that you are right and be comfortable imposing that on others, as you aren't entangling your readers' thoughts with reality, but rather entangling their thoughts with yours. That is, even if you were wrong you would convince them. I just... don't like it. It's not bad writing or anything on your part.
I think I mentioned in an earlier chapter that Red doesn't have the money to pay people, so he's basically offering the data from the pokedex as incentive, along with the usual "volunteer for science!" thing. I'll edit to reiterate it in this chapter too :)
I'm sure you did. Sorry for forgetting! It's really up to you (of course!) whether you want to add another reference. Other readers (and those reading the whole thing at once) will probably remember.
Ranna can see the spinarak, as it requires line of sight. Red did not consider this as a potential complication to the research, since he didn't consider why it would be an influencing factor.
They could set up a thin/light barrier with a slit for the spinarak's eyes if they wanted to, but of course they wouldn't if Red is not concerned about this.
u/DaystarEld [+1] Pokémon Professor (10 hours later)
I will make one last note that people having different values is not on its own an indictment of purely "rational" persuasive writing. Either you need to change a person's values (which should mean appeal to stronger values that they do hold, and demonstrating a conflict) or show that they are wrong about what their values imply. Both of these seem totally within the realm of "rational" discourse. You just need to find where the common ground is.
Yeah, that's absolutely true. When someone says they value Happiness, but also value, say, Tradition, and have a hard time quantifying or weighing which one wins out in what circumstances (and due to what other supplementary Values), there's always room for discussion there with someone who doesn't share their value of Tradition (doesn't even consider it a positive value, in fact) as long as they also share the value of Happiness. It's true that a conversation about this will likely be less entangled with reality than a conversation on something objective, but you can always bring objective observations and measurements into it to demonstrate to someone what their Values are resulting in, or what a new prioritization of Values will result in, and how that might change their mind.
If those don't work, then there really is a difference of values/opinions. You shouldn't be able to convince them, only trick them. This kind of "dark side" persuasion decouples the discourse from the truth. You have to just trust that you are right and be comfortable imposing that on others, as you aren't entangling your reader's thoughts with reality, but rather entangling their thoughts with yours. That is, even if you were wrong you would convince them. I just... don't like it. It's not bad writing or anything on your part.
To me this gets into an interesting long-standing argument about what it means to have values that reflect reality. Of course if someone doesn't share any of your Values but understands them, they could still do the same thing, and that's much more potentially manipulative (also sociopathic, if they don't share any values like Happiness or Truth). I can totally see why you dislike it, in general :)
u/derefr [+5] (21 hours later)
trained to use convincing rather than rational arguments
I wouldn't say "rather than"; good journalism starts with a rational argument as a basis, and then uses rhetoric as a multiplier to make it convincing to irrational human brains. Sometimes people will only believe the truth for stupid reasons.
The core argument (usually) stays in the piece; you've just got the other arguments in there as well. It's like conversion rate optimization for an idea: you look at what parts of your audience you likely haven't captured yet, and then you try to capture them by adding another strategy to specifically appeal to that subgroup. The easiest group to capture is the one that just believes the argument because it's a solid argument; the work of journalism is capturing the other 95% of the population. :)
u/None [+2] (2 days later)
She has about as much reason to think that her first article will go viral as Blue has to think that his first gym challenge would be a success, or that Red would succeed in his first research venture.
Not viral but she should expect to be at least moderately successful because she has a mentor who is an authority in the field reviewing her work.
u/DCarrier [+5] (8 hours later)
Holy shit, man... Does this come across to anyone else as kind of "dark". I guess it isn't actually that objectionable, but it somehow seems way more screwed up to me than when he dismembered it in order to catch it.
His job as a pokemon trainer is to give deadly monsters Stockholm syndrome so they don't murder him.
u/philip1201 [+2] (8 hours later)
Stockholm syndrome is characterised by working despite negative treatment, not because of positive treatment. Depending on how realistic/restrictive the simulation is, the Shiftry may not even understand that it is still captive.
u/DaystarEld [+5] Pokémon Professor (7 seconds later)
Hey all, welcome back! This chapter went on way longer than I was expecting, becoming the longest chapter to date, I believe... and it still didn't cover everything I wanted it to. It's a bit rough, so hopefully I can get more edits done to it soon. In the meantime, hope you enjoy it, and all feedback welcome, as usual!
Feel free to post typos in responses here!
u/4t0m [+4] Chaos Legion (2 hours later)
Possible typos/specific comments (made this a separate comment):
"However, we have decided that a smaller grant could still serve to explore whether your hypothesis justifies further study. In addition."
Not sure what's up with the last two words here.
"The forms will be valid for two months, and once submitted, the grant of $2,000 will be made available to you for four months."
Could be clarified that this means $2,000 per month. Or maybe it doesn't, and he has to use the money within 4 months? If the latter maybe clarify anyway, since I think that's sort of unintuitive (giving him access to a temporary account rather than a check).
"Other than studying pokemon, few subjects captured his attention like psychology."
Maybe add "as a kid" or something like that to justify the use of past-tense. Or change to present tense.
"Which is why reading books on finance or economics, interesting as they were, never held his attention quite like ones on the incentives that drive behavior, or interpersonal dynamics between people engaging in business deals."
I just vaguely don't like this sentence. This is a really dumb objection, but this and the last sentence together kind of read to me as: "Few things held his attention like psychology. Which is the reason that things X and Y didn't hold his attention as much as psychology." Also I think making a distinction between "interesting" and "attention holding" is fine but could be profitably rephrased.
"Which ties into the most important rule: make sure that they feel like they can walk away with a win."
Better not to start sentences with "which" used in this way (one of the above sentences does it too). Maybe just replace with "this".
"Red checks his phone as he walks incase he missed any texts from Blue or Leaf."
In case.
"There's a lot more she could say, if she wants to convince the old woman of the good that scientific progress brings, despite the risks."
Usually "could" is paired with the past tense (so, "wanted"). Hmm, not sure about this one though.
"This is the fourth interview she had today, by simply wandering around outside and inside the museum and asking people who don't seem busy if they would answer some questions about it."
I feel like there might be tense shenanigans going on here, but I'm not sure. Something about "she had today" and "who don't seem busy".
"a quick sessions with subjects."
"The point on Pewter's proud history was made, and can stand alone. Rather than linking it explicitly to the contributions to the rest of the region and world, that point can be much stronger on its own, once expanded."
Kind of unclear which idea needs to be expanded.
"though their pace is slow and unfocused."
Their pace is unfocused?
"New secrets began to be uncovered and revealed every day"
Laura was okay with the passive voice here!? (not actually a big deal).
"the more people it doesn't convince are going to get up in arms and start firing back."
Not a problem but might be better with an additional "the" before "people".
"and might give the story more legs."
"More legs" sounds weird to me but maybe it's normal.
"So it looks like your spinarak's chitin has a high proportion of sclerotin compared to the average, by about 17%."
"by about 17%" makes me think that "high" would be better as "higher".
"hands on an empty pokeball and his charmander's."
I don't understand why he's holding an empty pokeball.
"After that, Blue's attention is too focused on the shiftry that locks its gaze on him and immediately dashes toward him."
"That" might be better as "as it", since it's not as if there are a bunch of other shiftry around.
"They try it, and then a trough of water, then both, with Blue far behind them. The last is the only one that makes the shiftry hesitate: it clearly identifies Blue, notices the food and water between and to the side of them, then goes for it."
I'm confused. Are you saying that food and water individually didn't slow down the shiftry but together they did?
"Zephyr spots the pokemon and flies down to land on Blue's shoulder, looking ready to launch himself at the tree pokemon."
"The pokemon" + "the tree pokemon" strikes me as a bit clunky in the same sentence.
"killedi t."
"Wom. "Pow! Fnnadle! Laracra! Rotund!"
Extra quotation mark.
u/DaystarEld [+2] Pokémon Professor (8 hours later)
Whew! All fixed now, thanks a ton :)
I don't understand why he's holding an empty pokeball.
To delay it briefly if needed, the same way Blue did in the forest.
u/4t0m [+1] Chaos Legion (8 hours later)
Ah okay. I didn't realize that worked on captured pokemon.
u/DaystarEld [+2] Pokémon Professor (8 hours later)
Yeah, pokemon that belong to others can be stolen, but it's rather hard to do in most situations, since you have to have your pokeball out, hold it on the other person's pokemon for long enough to lock, then throw it. It also leads to a lot of behavioral complications from cross-programming, so is often more trouble than it's worth for the average person.
u/None [+4] (4 hours later)
[deleted]
u/DaystarEld [+2] Pokémon Professor (8 hours later)
Fixed, thanks!
u/LazarusRises [+1] (a month later)
As far as Patreon rewards go, I'd pay to read a fight scene between Red and a team I construct! The way you present battles is amazing and I want more.
u/DaystarEld [+1] Pokémon Professor (a month later)
That's a really cool idea, though it might brush a bit too close to my other comments about not offering more pokemon content as rewards :) I'll see what I can do.
u/KnickersInAKnit [+4] (13 hours later)
Just discovered this fanfic and read all 25 chapters over about 5 hours today. I absolutely love this - the characters, and especially the world-building. Once I digest the >160k words, I'll come back with proper feedback.
u/DaystarEld [+2] Pokémon Professor (17 hours later)
Glad you enjoyed it, and looking forward to any feedback :)
u/captainNematode [+5] (a day later)
If you're going for didactism with this you've got quite a bit of fertile ground with the "resurrection of ancient life" angle, especially if you're planning to focus on evolutionary biology. You could discuss all the challenges of accounting for degradation and contamination, the difficulties of short read alignment, all the other bioinformaticsy stuff (dealing with numts and repeats, all the phylogenetics, etc.), the limitations of mtDNA compared to nuDNA and gene vs. species trees, the need for exceptional preservation, advances in technology that make sequencing way easier (PCR! 2nd Gen Sequencing! etc.), the additional difficulties and limitations inherent in actually cloning something (e.g. you can't replicate maternal environment or diet, even if you somehow have a perfect zygote, though you could maaaaaybe iterate across several generations), and so on. You could also correct common misconceptions about the old bogus Antediluvian DNA studies, since most popular exposure comes through stuff like Jurassic Park.
Paabo just wrote a short, decent pop-sci memoir on this stuff, and he's probably the biggest name in the field right now. It's fairly light on detail (some textbooks and papers would serve you better there), but quite readable.
u/DaystarEld [+3] Pokémon Professor (a day later)
All that sounds like exactly the kind of stuff I need to learn about when I get to that portion of the story :) Got a link to Paabo's memoir? And mind if I message you in the future if I have questions on the topic?
u/captainNematode [+4] (a day later)
Sure, though I only check reddit once a week-ish so a response might not be immediate. Paabo's book can be found here (or "free" online) , and there are lots of pithier review papers on the subject, too (e.g. here, here, here, here, etc., though I'm not familiar with any super recent ones).
u/DaystarEld [+2] Pokémon Professor (a day later)
Thanks a lot!
u/liamash3 [+2] Mizu (12 hours later)
Interesting chapter. I liked seeing how the various activities each of the three mains are going through, from Red's psychic experiments to Leaf's article to Blue's attempt to have Shiftry not try and kill him as soon as it's released from the Greatball. That last one's going to be a long term project, methinks.
u/xamueljones [+2] My arch-enemy is entropy (16 hours later)
I'm curious, are you planning on writing full-time or is this more of a side-hobby for you?
Because I think you definitely have the chops to do well (although this subreddit is not exactly indicative of the average audience).
u/DaystarEld [+1] Pokémon Professor (17 hours later)
Thank you! I would ideally like to write full time, but for now I have bills to pay, and it's mostly just a passion project. I've written a couple works that I would like to publish, but they have a ways to go to get there.
u/xamueljones [+1] My arch-enemy is entropy (18 hours later)
I have bills to pay
I'd be willing to support you on Patreon.
u/DaystarEld [+3] Pokémon Professor (18 hours later)
That's very kind of you. I've thought about it, just wary of potential copyright issues. Pokemon company is notorious for cracking down hard on that stuff, so I'd need something else to focus the patreon around.
u/4t0m [+1] Chaos Legion (21 hours later)
I'd also contribute to a Patreon (but your concern makes sense).
u/None [+1] (15 minutes later)
Loved it, especially the bit that showcases the scientific research.