52 KiB
[RT][FF]Chapter 20 of Lightning Up the Dark, a rational Naruto fanfic
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Author: u/Velorien *
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URL: https://www.fanfiction.net/s/9311012/21/Lighting-Up-the-Dark
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Score: 33
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Created: 2015-11-16T12:54:52
Post:
Comments:
u/None [+20] (3 hours later)
[deleted]
u/Transfuturist [+5] Carthago delenda est. (13 hours later)
You can dumb yourself down to fit in, or do what comes naturally and you'll stand out and likely be alone.
Another option is not having the social intelligence/knowledge to realize how you're standing out.
Childhood was a disorienting and upsetting time for me.
u/None [+8] (23 hours later)
Exactly, but books on social interactions and dynamics are not part of the standard curriculum. Mistakenly, in my opinion.
u/None [+14] (an hour later)
Wow, is Gaara OP or what? And intelligently crazy. That's bad. I can't imagine how Talk No Jutsu could affect him in this condition, and in a rational world his purposeful murdering disturbs me more than it did in Kishiverse.
A question. What's the difference between Naruto's smarts and Shikamaru's? Their training in childhood? Are they supposed to be equally intelligent here?
Also I love how Orochimaru is legitimately badass, flawless.
Good chapter. I'll grudge every following day until next week.
u/sir_pirriplin [+15] (3 hours later)
I think Shikamaru's intelligence is the more explicit, deliberate kind, while Naruto's intelligence is more instinctive and implicit.
That makes Shikamaru a better team player, since he can explain to other people what he is thinking. Naruto on the other hand is very good at being creative and thinking fast in the middle of combat.
u/None [+12] (3 hours later)
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u/None [+7] (9 hours later)
Overall, though, it's best to reserve judgement until you have a fuller picture of his capabilities.
Sweet nectar for my expectations.
u/Chosen_Pun [+11] The Chosen Ones (4 hours later)
Childlike Wonder Gaara is way creepier than anything in canon.
I love it.
u/Transfuturist [+5] Carthago delenda est. (14 hours later)
Apologies to /u/eaglejarl, but the Kyubey is more terrifying than his Kurama. Although Kurama is pretty damn scary, he seems (SEEMS) fairly humanoid. Kyubey has the nightmare of Knightian uncertainty cloaking its goals.
Their Orochimaru are fairly comparable, but that might be because /u/Velorien hasn't really shown him off yet. Orochimaru is more viscerally terrifying to me than the Defense Professor, but that might be the rapey factor kicking in. Regardless, Gaara is (seems) more terrifying than both Orochimaru because he doesn't even hide his deviant psychology. Orochimaru is probably smarter than Gaara, but it might even be more interesting if Gaara was actually the smartest character so far (besides Kyubey and Shukaku).
secretly wants Gaara to be major character
If you're up to naming suggestions, it would be pretty amusing to name the One-Tails "Shikako," from the motivated Nara in Dreaming of Sunshine.
/u/Velorien, you're good at writing characters that scare me, and get me to empathize with despite their obvious status as narrative cannon fodder, goddamn you. /u/eaglejarl, you're good at writing characters who I DON'T KNOW WHAT THE FUCK THEY WANT WHILE THEY PRETEND TO WANT SOMETHING ELSE, which is pretty terrifying in its own right. You clearly weren't going for the alien feel, so I'm not actually sure how well you write that, but you do keep me second-guessing almost constantly.
u/HeirToGallifrey [+7] Thinking inside the box (it's bigger there) (11 hours later)
It would be interesting to see all the different uses/flavours of intelligence; perhaps even each tailed beast could represent one.
Off the top of my head, they could be planning, analysis, deduction, creativity, manipulation, learning (as in absorbing information or techniques that already exist), empathy, genre savviness, and...I don't know, rationality?
If this is implemented, I'd see Kurama as being planning (doing the tricks with the shuriken and deliberately lying to Naruto to gauge his reactions), and I'd wager that the Shukaku would be analysis (obsessed with seeing new techniques, immediately figured out that the light-wielding ninja would have nothing more to show him). Just a random idea.
u/Nevereatcars [+5] The Greatest Is Behind (13 hours later)
Kirabi is creativity. 8-sword style didn't invent itself.
Also I think you might be confusing our two ongoing Rat!Naru fics. I don't remember the Nine-Brains ever actually deceiving Naruto about anything. It's Eaglejarl's Kyuubi who seems to be playing the Manipulative Bastard game.
u/HeirToGallifrey [+7] Thinking inside the box (it's bigger there) (13 hours later)
Agreed with the eight-tails. And you are also correct, I did confuse Team Anko with Lighting Up the Dark; apologies for the mistake. Your Kyuubi might then be Calculation or something to that effect.
u/eaglejarl [+3] (3 days later)
It's Eaglejarl's Kyuubi who seems to be playing the Manipulative Bastard game.
Hey! I resemble that remark! Kurama is the soul of innocent helpfulness. Yes, he lied to Naruto one time, but it was only as a test of character and he owned up to it on their next meeting, even though he didn't have to. Everyone beats up on Kurama just become he's a hyperpowerful inhuman Primordial monster with a known penchant for eradicating entire cities! Poor guy.
u/Nevereatcars [+1] The Greatest Is Behind (3 days later)
Since I called you by name, I'm glad you resemble the remark, since otherwise my claim would be inaccurate.
u/eaglejarl [+2] (3 days later)
Out of everything I said there, that's the piece you respond to? Man, tough room. ;>
u/Nevereatcars [+1] The Greatest Is Behind (3 days later)
Sorry, I didn't have the time to go through the entire piece and cite all the ways you just lied.
u/eaglejarl [+2] (3 days later)
No, no! Everything I said was absolutely true -- you can check.
Granted, it was also hyperbolic and tongue-in-cheek, but it was all literally true.
u/sir_pirriplin [+1] (2 days later)
It would be interesting to see all the different uses/flavours of intelligence; perhaps even each tailed beast could represent one.
Are we sure Gaara's beast is super intelligent too? It looks like Gaara has abnormally huge chakra levels, since he got the tags from the obelisk and was not tired. That's more similar to the tailed beasts of canon than to the alien incubators.
u/Transfuturist [+1] Carthago delenda est. (2 days later)
It would probably be best for Shukaku to be dumb and powerful, considering the poor quality of its sealing in canon.
u/FuguofAnotherWorld [+6] Roll the Dice on Fate (15 hours later)
I honestly think Talk No Jutsu could still work out, it would just need tweaking to new situation. Something along the lines of "You want to see interesting things not just now, but also as far as possible into the future as well, therefore maximise working togetherness and minimise things that make dangerous people want to kill you in order to maximise your lifespan and thus maximise the number of interesting things you see."
Except more eloquently put and padded out a bit. Also, I'm loving the Orochimaru is selling himself as the good guy, or maybe the necessary evil. It's just a better strategy when talking to recruits.
u/None [+6] (23 hours later)
I guess you're right, touchy-feely heel-face turns are badly suited for rational fiction, but updating instrumental value could fit well.
About Orochimaru, I'll suspend my judgement until we have more info. But the same old follow me and I'll grant your revenge at the price of everything you have could never have worked out with moderately smart people. Sometimes manga are content with being admittedly dumb.
u/Transfuturist [+3] Carthago delenda est. (a day later)
follow me and I'll grant your revenge at the price of everything you have
To be fair, Orochimaru was counting on Sasuke thinking he could beat him in the future in order to coax him away from Konoha. The problem with his plan was that Sasuke was right.
u/None [+2] (a day later)
Yeah but Sasuke was right by author ass-pulling.
u/Transfuturist [+3] Carthago delenda est. (2 days later)
Oorchimaru should have known he was in a setting where the Uchiha were given a tank's worth of plot armor. The Mangekyou Sharingan for fuck's sake.
u/None [+3] (2 days later)
The Eternal Mangekyou Sharingan, for fuck's sake!
u/Transfuturist [+10] Carthago delenda est. (7 hours later)
My heart broke.
u/Jace_MacLeod [+12] (15 hours later)
And so did Shiina's!
u/abcd_z [+4] (a day later)
Too soon?
u/Nevereatcars [+10] The Greatest Is Behind (7 hours later)
My approach to writing LUD battle scenes is "here is the challenge; how would Naruto respond to it?" If I can't find an answer that doesn't result in a Total Party Kill, I don't lower the challenge. I just think harder until I come up with something.
You said that.
I *do* like my characters (except smart!Gaara, who is so scarily overpoweredd I have no idea how to stop him, and don't even get me started on smart!Orochimaru)
You said this too.
Just reminding everybody else.
u/Transfuturist [+6] Carthago delenda est. (12 hours later)
Thank you for the reminder, it makes me like Gaara even more.
u/abcd_z [+7] (a day later)
"Why, my dear Sasuke, to save the world."
So, nobody's going to talk about this?
My two cents: Eh. At least it's better than his stated canon motivations of
painting with all the colors of the worldlearning all the jutsus in the world.I don't know why he was so obsessed with it, anyways. Kakashi is supposed to have learned thousands of jutsus, but we never see him use more than a small handful of them.
u/MadScientist95387 [+7] (a day later)
Things he could be saving the world from:
Nagato
Obito
Madara
Economic collapse from everyone being a ninja instead of having real jobs
Gato
The Shinigami
Tora
Kishimoto
Hiashi the Master Eugenicist
u/Saffrin-chan [+5] (a day later)
Hiashi the Master Eugenicist
good to know someone else is aware of keikaku hehehe ^translator's ^note ^keikaku ^means ^plan
Also, on another note, in that one movie where Naruto goes in the past and meets his dad, I never got why Naruto's memory had to be erased too. I mean, I get it from continuity perspective, can't have Naruto finding out who his parents are in a movie before he does in canon, but like, what was their explanation in-universe? I get Minato and Kakashi's memories needing to be erased, they can't know about the future, but there was no good reason to erase Naruto's memory too. Naruto was just about to return to the future, so how was him knowing about the past going to affect anything lol?
u/Transfuturist [+4] Carthago delenda est. (a day later)
It had to plausibly return to the status quo of the anime.
And, um, knowledge of the past is called knowledge. It is as powerful as any other kind.
u/Gaboncio [+3] (2 days later)
There's also a fantastic theorem somewhere that states that all information gained from traveling to the past must be destroyed upon return to the present. That implies that while it may be possible, it is literally insignificant. I like that a Naruto movie honors this, even if unintentionally.
u/eaglejarl [+2] (3 days later)
"Salad arc"? Really? Was there a soup arc as well?
u/MadScientist95387 [+2] (3 days later)
Sasuke and Sakura named their daughter Salad.
Well, technically they named her Sarada, but Sarada sounds like a japanese pronunciation of Salad and the japanese name Boruto of Naruto and Hinata's son was changed to Bolt in the english so people thought Sarada might be like Boruto, just an english word with japanese pronunciation, and the fan nickname stuck.
u/eaglejarl [+2] (3 days later)
... Please tell me this is a joke.
u/MadScientist95387 [+2] (3 days later)
Sorry.
u/eaglejarl [+2] (3 days later)
headdesk
/me looks back at the context and sees that it was edited.
Oh, that makes more sense.
u/None [+1] (3 days later)
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u/AugSphere [+3] Dark Lord of Corruption (3 days later)
I suspect you're fighting a losing battle here. Since even the gaiden is done by now this is all pretty much late-arrival spoilers.
To be honest, I don't even think it's worth reading the manga/watching the anime to the very end. I actually regret reading the chapters from the last couple of arcs. They were so bad, they've tarnished the memories of previous ones. Negative utility if you ask me.
u/None [+1] (a day later)
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u/eaglejarl [+3] (3 days later)
You might want to stop following it -- the ending is ridiculously unsatisfying. When Kishimoto turned Kurama into a rainbow-maned alicorn I just gave up. And don't even get me started on what he did to Orochimaru; he carefully set this guy up as a psychotic maniac, and then he has him get hit on the head one time and suddenly become a Buddhist monk who spends all his time braiding flowers into Kurama's hair and apologizing to everyone in verse? And verse that doesn't even scan, for that matter. You can't rhyme 'ridiculously' with 'humongously', Kishimoto! The ACCents are on the wrong syllAble!
Oh and, in case it's not obvious, all of the above is a joke.
u/Transfuturist [+3] Carthago delenda est. (a day later)
In notes for a thing I'm working on, he was wanting to reverse-engineer the physics of chakra to beat entropy. It doesn't quite apply anymore. But note that this actually makes the Hyuuga more valuable than the Uchiha.
u/ZeroNihilist [+7] (an hour later)
My only Naruto experience is through rational fanfics so I have no idea about its accuracy, but I'm really liking the portrayal of Shikamaru. He seems like a good candidate for a rational fiction (and apparently one already exists).
I'm assuming Orochimaru was the one that left the notes, and probably did so for more than just that one team. That lets him establish a perimeter so that his little discussion with Sasuke can go uninterrupted and unobserved without revealing his involvement. Clever, though I do wonder how he found so much dirt on so many genin; he must have been planning this for a long time or has comprehensive intelligence reports.
Gaara is apparently the host of the One-Tailed Beast in canon. That presumably means that he's a serious threat here. His sensory abilities and ninjutsu control imply that Gaara is leveraging that, and the distaste at drinking the blood from the heart suggests that it isn't total control (as does the fact that he isn't murdering everyone).
This might be a state that Naruto could also reach, though I imagine it has some serious drawbacks with respect to free will, morality, etc. Gaara's sand control and perceptiveness would make him another pretty hard counter to the Uzumaki style, so I wouldn't put any money on Naruto solo even with Nine-Tail's cooperation (or at least I wouldn't if he weren't the protagonist).
u/Nevereatcars [+12] The Greatest Is Behind (2 hours later)
Chiaroscuro is doing a better job than Shikamaru vs the Logical Fallacies, IMO.
u/FuguofAnotherWorld [+2] Roll the Dice on Fate (2 hours later)
I shall have to read that one. Thanks for the link.
Edit: Oh nice! It's by the same guy who did Evil Overlord List. I knew I recognised that rabbit.
u/Nevereatcars [+3] The Greatest Is Behind (2 hours later)
Gotta love the rabbit. It's called "Brand Recognition"
u/Cariyaga [+2] Kyubey did nothing wrong (3 hours later)
Oh, freaking nice, it's still being updated. As understanding as I am of it (I know life gets in the way sometimes, and the muse leaves), it's annoying when I find a really good fic that's stopped being updated years ago.
u/None [+2] (10 hours later)
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u/Nevereatcars [+3] The Greatest Is Behind (10 hours later)
No set dates or days, but it updates frequently.
u/Restinan [+2] (12 hours later)
I couldn't really get into that. I stopped about halfway through. I can't quite put my finger on why, but I think it might have something to do with the writing style.
u/Transfuturist [+2] Carthago delenda est. (a day later)
It seems to have problems with its perspective changes. Like Worm, the protagonist is done from a first-person POV, and everyone else through third-person limited. Problems with that choice is that the perspective character still shifts within the chapter, and Shikamaru isn't actually focused on as much as you would think. When Shikamaru is focused on, there is no easy labeling the author can give the reader due to the first-person nature of the shift. You get something that's fairly confusing and feels disjointed, when chapters are supposed to be units.
EDIT: Finishing what's there, it's actually more of a Kakashi-centric fic, as his Kakashi has stolen the fucking show completely. It's amazing.
u/Kodix [+2] (15 hours later)
I liked that! Thank you for linking it.
u/scooterboo2 [+2] Tinker 3: Embeded Systems (4 hours later)
u/Transfuturist [+2] Carthago delenda est. (11 hours later)
Do we know that Kabuto is working with/for Orochimaru?
u/scooterboo2 [+2] Tinker 3: Embeded Systems (11 hours later)
Nope, not yet. Hence the spoilers.
u/Kodix [+3] (15 hours later)
I think he's implying that it could be different in this world. Particularly given Kabuto's track record of this, both in canon and in various fics - is there anyone that guy hasn't worked for?
u/NotAHeroYet [+1] City of Angles Municipal Government (a day later)
the sage of ten paths, i think. anyone dead between his birthday and when he reached the age of ten. The kyuubii.
that is probably the entire list, though.
u/AugSphere [+8] Dark Lord of Corruption (4 hours later)
Ahh, this is so good. I'm already dreading the long wait when the pre-written chapters run out.
Also, you apparently have a talent for allowing me into the head of a helpless despairing character, who's being vivisected by a merciless implacable agent. The nightmare fetishist part of me would very much like to read more of that. The rest of me wonders if this type of content really falls under the T rating, strictly speaking. Probably cultural biases and all, but I rather think that kinky sex would constitute a more appropriate content for teenagers, as compared to snuff.
u/None [+12] (6 hours later)
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u/AugSphere [+8] Dark Lord of Corruption (10 hours later)
I think that there is a certain qualitative difference between the usual intense violence and what you've written here in terms of impact on the reader. The "acceptable" violence for teens is usually more about slaughtering enemy mooks or villains, who the audience barely even registers as representing sapient agents. Here you've done a crack job of getting the reader to empathise with Shiina. By the time she was captured, she was firmly in my "she represents a human, I care about what happens to her" mental bucket. The emotional response to subsequent snuff is much stronger than "oh another mook bit the dust, some guts may have fallen out".
I have written nothing that I would not have been prepared to read as a teenager. …if anyone is still reading after that, they know what they're letting themselves in for.
Personally, I completely agree with you here. I think 99% of "Mature" content on fanfiction.net doesn't really deserve the label. Certainly, I would have gladly read most of it when I was a teenager and would have enjoyed it even more in those years. Still, by the silly convention of fanfiction.net, the kinky sex goes into M category and I'm pretty sure that this chapter is no more appropriate for teens than smut is.
If this post was meant as a request for more kinky sex in LUD, your suggestion shall be taken under advisement.
I was thinking more of first-person perspectives of vivisection torture, but I ain't gonna say no to kinky sex either. In fact, I enthusiastically approve!
u/Nevereatcars [+4] The Greatest Is Behind (10 hours later)
We could do a POV of one of Orochimaru's subjects.
u/AugSphere [+4] Dark Lord of Corruption (11 hours later)
What, just for me? Aww, you shouldn't have!
More seriously, I think that potentially such a scene could serve a purpose beyond just being gratuitous guro and, as such, may deserve a place in this fic. Perhaps it can be used to show that while Oro-tan is a cool dude who's all about minimising existential risks (I assume that's a direction Velorien is taking him), he does in fact have some not-so-heroic interests.
u/FuguofAnotherWorld [+5] Roll the Dice on Fate (a day later)
I'm thinking it's something like him wanting to live forever, and he can't do that if some bozo ends the world.
u/Nevereatcars [+2] The Greatest Is Behind (a day later)
Now where have we seen that one before...
u/FuguofAnotherWorld [+1] Roll the Dice on Fate (a day later)
You'll have to refresh my memory?
u/Nevereatcars [+2] The Greatest Is Behind (a day later)
Quirrell. That's HPMoR Quirrell.
u/AugSphere [+3] Dark Lord of Corruption (a day later)
To be fair, avoiding existential risks is an almost inevitable sub-goal of intelligent immortality seekers. Hard to enjoy your immortal life if everyone else is dead. Some types of the extinction events may even wipe out the immortal agent, so that's another reason to avert them.
u/Transfuturist [+3] Carthago delenda est. (a day later)
Another element that makes Orochi similar to Quirrel is the young upstart (Naruto) that potentially threatens his immortality.
There will never be another Quirrel & Harry-level bond, though.
u/AugSphere [+2] Dark Lord of Corruption (3 days later)
Now I want Naruto to defect together with Sasuke. Just for the sake of some rational mentor feels.
u/Transfuturist [+2] Carthago delenda est. (3 days later)
;_;
u/NotAHeroYet [+2] City of Angles Municipal Government (a day later)
Also, ochimaru's immortality method relies on there being people, I'm pretty sure- it's a vampiric-type immortality, a cost constantly paid. It's not like voldemort's one-and-done immortality. (yes, i know, backups. he only needed one, if it weren't destructible.)
If he wants to be strong, there needs to be strong ninja who are willing to give themselves to him. He'd probably choose from his own side if he were rational- especially if they felt it was an honor- but he might value rare abilities that are tied to the body more.
sharigan is quite likely worth the risk, and more-so considering how outmatched he is by atsuki. He needs power and needs it quick, if he's discovered the threat.
u/Nevereatcars [+1] The Greatest Is Behind (a day later)
I was never clear, but I think Orochochohoho needs a new body every three years, right? He took a new body at the end of the Sasuke Retrieval Arc. He wanted it to be Sasuke's, but Sasuke took too long to get there and he needed a new one before Sasuke could arrive. And then 3 years later, he was preparing to take Sasuke's body, but Sasuke killed him instead.
u/FuguofAnotherWorld [+3] Roll the Dice on Fate (a day later)
Him and many other smart immortals. You'll have to forgive me that I didn't zero in on the right one
u/Transfuturist [+2] Carthago delenda est. (8 hours later)
I second this request. :P
u/None [+5] (9 hours later)
Voting for the motion.
u/Transfuturist [+3] Carthago delenda est. (11 hours later)
Hey! I caught that double-vote!
Into the brig with you, fraudster.
u/None [+7] (23 hours later)
what? Oh Reddit, how have you failed me to bring distrust from my fellow rationality readers with this malfunction of yours! I truly have nothing left of worth but my life, and that I shall give for to regain my honour. Here, with this dagger in my heart, I die.
u/None [+1] (9 hours later)
Voting for the motion.
u/Transfuturist [+3] Carthago delenda est. (8 hours later)
nightmare fetishist? :3
u/AugSphere [+5] Dark Lord of Corruption (11 hours later)
As defined by the tvtropes. Usually, I wouldn't show off my powerlevels like this, but since this is a safe place… Let's just say I've managed to extract some unconventional hedons from the first part of this chapter and leave it at that. No reason to make everyone really uncomfortable now.
u/Transfuturist [+3] Carthago delenda est. (11 hours later)
I'm not uncomfortable... <3
I didn't think anyone else oriented towards that sort of thing would be here. It's a pleasant surprise.
u/AugSphere [+5] Dark Lord of Corruption (12 hours later)
Oh damn. The tribal feels I'm having right now. I can even understand now what the sports fans get from the whole blue/green team thing. Ours is the best tribe ever indeed.
u/None [+6] (20 hours later)
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u/AugSphere [+5] Dark Lord of Corruption (a day later)
Oh, I didn't doubt that for a second. It's quite obvious that the point of the scene is to show off Gaara and I wouldn't actually want you to just write pointless gratuitous scenes of violence, at least not inside this story. It's just that I already expected him to be pretty much like what was shown. What I didn't expect is how impactful you'll manage to make the death of what essentially amounts to a known sacrificial mook. You've done a really good job of giving her enough depth quickly to make the scene really mean something on emotional level.
I don't think the label is accurate.
I don't really think so either. But I know of no better label for "being inside the characters head as everything is casually taken away from them: first their freedom, then comrades and hope, then health, even any chance that Gaara will face retribution for his actions, then finally the broken, pitiful thing that used to be a person dies and no one in their universe even cares about their fate". Looks like everyone more or less understood what I meant by snuff anyway.
u/None [+3] (a day later)
I think the label would be "very realistic"
u/Transfuturist [+3] Carthago delenda est. (a day later)
I gave Shiina such depth as I could manage in a single scene.
It worked. ;_;
u/Transfuturist [+5] Carthago delenda est. (12 hours later)
Tagged 'Guro-chan.' ;V
Have you read Metamorphosis of Prime Intellect? The first part might be interesting (And the rest as well, but for different reasons).
u/AugSphere [+3] Dark Lord of Corruption (12 hours later)
Not yet. I've read the spoilers when it was posted here last time and decided that the ending would be too disappointing for me. I may just read the first part now that you've given me a recommendation.
u/Transfuturist [+3] Carthago delenda est. (12 hours later)
It's not quite as empathy-inducing as this recent chapter, though. It's more meant to display the inurement to depravity a utopia would experience.
u/None [+3] (23 hours later)
Woah woah woah now, let's put spoilers where they belong to, below the black band.
u/Transfuturist [+3] Carthago delenda est. (a day later)
Apologies. Wasn't sure anyone else would read that.
u/MultipartiteMind [+3] (23 hours later)
u/4t0m [+2] Chaos Legion (4 days later)
/u/eaglejarl I'm curious, did this chapter change your opinion at all regarding Sasuke's reaction after the first test?
u/eaglejarl [+2] (4 days later)
It did, yes. The prior chapter made it sound as though he was reacting the same way Sakura was -- whining about how his ego was hurt because Naruto solved the problem himself instead of letting Sasuke show off. This chapter provides a much more sensible motivation.
u/None [+1] (13 hours later)
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u/Nevereatcars [+2] The Greatest Is Behind (13 hours later)
"Shiina, on the ground now, could see a miniature sandstorm growing around Hina's body, a whirlwind that stripped skin from flesh, flesh from bone, and finally reduced the bone to dust, scouring even the bloodstained ground until the only proof that Hina had ever been was a solitary set of tags."
u/None [+2] (23 hours later)
about this, what about the seventy percent of liquids in poor Hina's body? shouldn't there be a very visible mess around? Don't ninja have knowledge of DNA and DNA reconnaissance capabilities?
u/None [+5] (a day later)
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u/None [+2] (a day later)
Even if there were, it would be one small pool of something in a vast forest. Worse, the forest is filled with people who can use a variety of bizarre techniques, including ones to create and/or manipulate various liquids which may be left behind after the technique is done.
Yeah, it adds up.
Tech levels in the Narutoverse are notoriously inconsistent (I think Kishimoto is on record as saying that they're overall analogous to ours, minus firearms and motor vehicles, which is insane), but there have to be some limits, and I think DNA is one of those. It would utterly break a lot of things, including ninja stealth vs forensic science.
Not relevant anymore seeing as Gaara could have done a bunch of creative things with the remains, but Orochimaru was splicing people in his lab. He went as far as creating a genetically engineered embryo, and I can't believe he got the whole field of genetics all on himself.
u/None [+3] (a day later)
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u/None [+2] (a day later)
Sure, but to not use such knowledge in investigation? Ninja are all about information gathering, it's literally the difference between life and death in their world, so they must be using genetic identification. In fact, I'm not really sure but my brain is bringing afloat faint impressions of this occurring in the manga, or the anime fillers, I'm really not sure. Maybe it's just my awful memory inventing things.
u/None [+5] (a day later)
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u/None [+9] (a day later)
and the standard tool of warfare is a knife.
Come on now, give Kishimoto some credit. The standard tool of warfare is body-enhancing reality-bending magic.
u/NotAHeroYet [+2] City of Angles Municipal Government (a day later)
And a knife.
correction: three hundred knives.
u/None [+1] (a day later)
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u/None [+1] (a day later)
And I would challenge that. In the real world, the standard tool of warfare is the computer. Rifles are used nearly as sparsely as tanks and missiles and drones.
In fact, in this moronic horrible thing that is happening in the middle-east, a number of countries intervened with mainly aviation and intelligence. Terrorists use rifles as much as bombs and kamikaze (yes, I'm classifying them as weapons, not soldiers), and a very used tool of war is blackmail (see Russia).
To get back to the narutoverse, you could say the most used tools of war are the basic three of the academy.
I'd say the most unacceptable nuance in Naruto's tech-level is the lack of transportation, not firearms. That really would be impossible.
u/None [+1] (2 days later)
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u/None [+1] (2 days later)
You're changing the terms of the debate.
"Body-enhancing reality-bending magic" is unambiguously a reference to individual use of combat ninjutsu, not military intelligence, blackmail, aviation etc.
Yeah, I tend to steer discussions to branches. sorry.
If Narutoverse ninja had any level of technological advancement that made sense, they would have come up with their own equivalent weaponry - high-speed shuriken launchers, maybe, or explosive tag grenades, or pseudo-homing weaponry through crude use of chakra strings. Anything better than trying to cut their enemy with knives.
Hmmm, food for thoughts. Are we advanced in every area that we could be advanced in, right now? Because if we aren't, it would be possible for ninja to forget the "tool" component of warfare in favour of personal power. After all, to keep power limited to the few with access to clan secrets/specific teachers/classified jutsu is something of a value for them. If anyone could grab a gun and sniper a ninja, it would kinda screw the status quo.
pseudo-homing weaponry
Can't compute
Also we are horrible nerds for discussing in depth the politics and development of a fictional world.
u/None [+2] (2 days later)
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u/None [+2] (2 days later)
They could get around this by leveraging the "default" advantages of being a ninja - nigh-superhuman reflexes, hardened bodies, chakra use etc. That would leave them with plenty of potential for weapons that a non-ninja couldn't use, or couldn't use effectively.
And this is already a less trivial task than inventing a firearm.
As it is, it seems odd that the only standardised ninjutsu are the basic Academy ones (especially given that even those are ridiculously overpowered when used intelligently). The village that thought of expanding that arsenal to include, say, basic offensive ninjutsu (instead of forcing people to rely on notoriously underpowered kunai) would instantly receive a huge advantage.
Oh come on, you wrote it yourself, giving more jutsu to genin would be asking for rebellion! And how much overpowered would an intelligent user (like your Naruto) be if they had yet another basic technique? Ninjutsu stack exponentially, not summatorially (?).
What I mean is that you wouldn't describe one of Kankurō's puppets as a homing weapon, but that's the effect his abilities would have if they were applied to something like a shuriken.
I'd never heard the term homing weapon. Thanks.
Besides, it's way less depressing than discussing the politics and development of the real world.
True that.
u/None [+2] (3 days later)
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u/None [+2] (3 days later)
I dunno, it took 400 years between the discovery of gunpowder and the invention of firearms, and then another 600 before they became anything like modern weapons in terms of safety, reliability and firing speed.
Yeah, and all this for a basic concept as a thing that shoots things, a simple mechanism that anyone can use.
are you maybe thinking of a different fic?
Man, I read your fic thrice over already. It was said by Tariki during his interrogation. "You know what happens when too many ninja live long enough to get real strong? Of course you don't, you idealistic little prick. They start getting ambitious."
If you teach them things from genin already, they'll become stronger and get ideas. And they'll have numbers.
That happens anyway, though.
But in time and with people checked over and over again by their mentors. Also, few reach jonin.
It's not like there's a ban on Genin learning new techniques, and in principle a Genin could learn all the techniques they have time and talent for just by asking around.
And at the same time be checked. Nobody really learns a new techniques from the library, they get taught. Well, this thing isn't really clear in canon.
Anyway that's like, what Kishimoto thought was cool, rather than what would supposedly happen. Unless we accept his subconscious mind was pattern-matching on reasonable things while he din't know and he just felt like it flowed well.
I think the opposite of "exponential" is "linear".
I think "summatorially" ought to be a word.
u/None [+2] (3 days later)
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u/MadScientist95387 [+1] (4 days later)
You're doing that term-shifting thing again. A thing that shoots things could be a bow or a sling, which anyone can use with a minimum of training (though accuracy is another matter - but that's true of any ranged weapon). Narutoverse ninja don't even have those, relying instead on throwing weapons which offer no force multiplier.
The Narutoverse definitely has bows.
For one thing, Sasuke's Susaano uses one. For another, we see a flashback episode where Itachi takes Sasuke boar hunting, and Sasuke uses a bow to do so. I also believe that some of Gato's hired thugs used bows.
u/None [+1] (4 days later)
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u/MadScientist95387 [+1] (4 days later)
I'm not sure about that.
Since bows are obviously available for ninja use, maybe the reason is that bows can't compete with shuriken.
Sure, IRL bows have more power, but we aren't talking about human thrown shuriken. We're talking about ninja thrown shuriken. Maybe chakra enhanced muscles can throw shuriken with more force than the draw of a bow can generate?
u/None [+1] (4 days later)
I was keeping it short to give you a socially smooth way out of what was becoming a long conversation, but seeing as you don't mind...
You're doing that term-shifting thing again.
I meant that ignition-accelerated bodies is a simple technology, when compared to user-bound weapons. For example, we still don't have genetically (fingerprint/body chemistry/blood vases pattern) marked firearms, and yet those are well within the reach of our technology. And anything requiring ninja abilities could also be detrimental in battle.
relying instead on throwing weapons which offer no force multiplier
Seeing as ninja have very, very good reflexes and reaction times, it's reasonable that anything short of firearms and hand-thrown kunai would be dead weights instead of force multipliers.
Setting aside the fact that Tariki is ridiculously cynical [...] everyone else either treats it as a burden (e.g Tsunade) or as an achievement to be earned (e.g. Naruto)
Uchiha. The problem with them was that they had a gamebreaker power that made the common chuunin, maybe even the advanced genin, be on the level of a lot of chuunin, and a, S-rank Uchiha can take down a Hokage. In fact, Shisui could have taken the whole fire country if he had bothered to try.
Now of course this is a little outside of the (common genin + more techniques) area, but can you imagine a militarized nation with a lot of troops with personal power? I't like in Nigeria, continuous succession of bloodthirsty dictators, only there it's the kalasnikov.
In the present Kishimoto situation, a juunin can take down one hundred normal genin with ease, but I argue that it's pretty difficult to take down one hundred opponents who can shoot fire at you, erect walls, jet water and electrocute you if you touch the nearly invisible ninja wire that they can thread around you in a second, being in vast numerical advantage.
Checked for what?
For loyalty and trustworthiness. Just like when Voldemort goes around searching for minions, or when a drug dealer only deals with you if you are a friend of a friend. Not that I would know.
We know that technique scrolls are a thing, and indeed we see ninja learn things from them on multiple occasions (including Episode 1).
Yeah, restricted scrolls under the control of the Hokage, or clan heads. Not scroll-shop scrolls.
To get back to the original problem, a technological society without modern transportation (or better) is absolutely absurd, but one in which all firearms are replaced with magic warfare seems pretty reasonable to me.
Then people might confuse it with "summarily", or think it was related to "summarise".
But I liiiiiike iiiiiit!
u/AugSphere [+2] Dark Lord of Corruption (4 days later)
In the present Kishimoto situation, a juunin can take down one hundred normal genin with ease, but I argue that it's pretty difficult to take down one hundred opponents who can shoot fire at you, erect walls, jet water and electrocute you if you touch the nearly invisible ninja wire that they can thread around you in a second, being in vast numerical advantage.
I think this is pretty much consistent with Naurtoverse power curve. The difference between genin and jōnin is enormous. A hundred genin could probably take care of one jōnin if they were perfectly coordinated and managed to saturate the immediate area with hazards. But even then, if you're against someone like Kakashi, he'll see it coming and substitute away, or burrow into the ground. Then emerge somewhere else, charge up one jutsu and wipe out all of your hundred genin in one strike. Someone like Gai wouldn't even slow down. He'll just run around punching everyone hard enough that they explode. Kurenai would cast one jutsu and everyone would fall asleep or go into la-la land or something. Not to mention the fact that a jōnin can disengage and re-engage at will and the genin won't be able to keep up.
There are two ways genin win: either they manage to somehow completely surprise the opponent, or he gets into straight up ninjutsu slugging match and stands there taking fire like a moron. I've always felt that Narutoverse battle-wizards mostly rely on overwhelming firepower and speed. Only the ones who have some special advantages stand around tanking hits, everyone else just dodges. Jōnin would have an overwhelming advantage both in speed and in accurately delivering firepower.
u/None [+1] (5 days later)
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u/None [+1] (6 days later)
But ninja technology has developed in different directions, many of which already draw on the user's personal power. Examples include storage seals, exploding tags and summoning scrolls, all of which are tools rather than techniques, yet draw on the user's chakra for their effect.
Still not user-bound weapons. If I'm not remembering wrong, canon says non-ninja can use a little bit of chakra. And how difficult can it possibly be, if even ten years old can learn it?
A matter of incentive, surely?
Surely. Not even prototypes around tough. My point is progress can leave some paths unexplored.
As mentioned in another comment, there are things like bows which are strictly superior to shuriken in the right context (e.g. sniping, or penetrating an enemy's guard).
I can see how sniping is absurdly undervalued in the Narutoverse, probably another lack of the author.
Besides, it seems like ninja's enhanced accuracy and reflexes cancel each other out - 99% of shuriken throws get blocked or dodged, whereas a faster or heavier weapon might not.
This reminds me that we have seen few average fights among average combatants in the course of the show. We lack information.
I don't recall any evidence of this. While we see no scroll-shops, nor is there any evidence that technique scrolls in general are restricted.
The scroll Naruto steals was restricted, it was in the Hokage office which was surveilled constantly, and Naruto was in fact caught stealing it (and I think he manages only by plot device. Other techniques we see in the old Uchiha compound, and were only accessible with a sharingan. We don't see any easily accessible technique scroll that I can remember during the whole manga.
while apparently having no need to transport goods or equipment on a regular basis.
That's the absurd part. Technology requires materials, more materials and even more materials. Research even more. Unless it's all chakra-powered, we fail to see [concerns future events but not exactly spoiler] (#s " silicon wafer factories for the cellular phones in the end of the serie").
I think my original argument was that they aren't replaced with magic warfare, because magic warfare is much too complicated and expensive to fill the same niche. Instead, the thing we have in place of firearms to supplement the magic warfare, kunai etc., is strangely inadequate to the task.
Hmm. I think it fits in the boundaries of Japanese culture. During the Sengoku Period there were constant feuds and wars, and yet Japan military technology evolved from swords to somewhat better swords. It's, in my opinion, fitting of the Japanese historical mindset.
Language evolution is in the hands of the people. If you truly want your variant term to become accepted, simply get enough people to use it in their daily lexicon.
I am a linguist. The tantrum was just for the lulz.
u/Transfuturist [+3] Carthago delenda est. (a day later)
We're only shown what amounts to education in ninja villages, of those children that want to become ninja. I'm not sure it's ever implied that the Academy functions as a normal school for civilians.
However, yes, that PC is completely crazy. I can imagine them working with punchcards and room-supercomputers, or with the old desktop toys that are called computers. I'm just not sure why they would even use them.
They might work with seals or jutsu. Make your own ASIC!
u/eaglejarl [+2] (3 days later)
Kishimoto has canonically stated that there are computers, but they are "maybe 8-bit...definitely not 16-bit."
So, yeah, no laptops. Also, the idea that they can have chips with the level of technology shown is laughable. I actually had a serious rant about this in Team Anko, but I'm not going to hijack your thread. Suffice to say, the tech levels in Naruto are made of stupid.