20 KiB
[RST][FF][Lord of the Rings] Frodobox
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Author: u/Transfuturist Carthago delenda est.*
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URL: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1DOI7TQK4BomhcZxOoJ2m3jD_ozk37ZF7MrAR4jQ-eO8/edit
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Score: 24
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Created: 2015-12-08T16:59:33
Post:
Comments:
u/scruiser [+11] CYOA (6 hours later)
I can't imagine canon Gandalf and Elrond actually falling for it. At the very least, they would make Frodo take off the ring for just a moment...
Even so, interesting story.
u/Transfuturist [+5] Carthago delenda est. (8 hours later)
Elrond I'm not so sure, but perhaps Gandalf is playing a level higher than the Ring can perceive...
u/scruiser [+5] CYOA (8 hours later)
Keep in mind that the scene in the movie with Elrond telling Isilidur to throw it in is an invention of the movies and it didn't happen that way in the books...
Also, what is the backstory to this alternate universe? Gollum I can imagine makes sense as he planned the optimal strategy for keeping the ring was to hide in the mountain. But I can't imagine how the rest of the Hobbit would have played out. Did Bilbo manipulate Smaug with the plan he formed with the ring? If the ring is as super corrupting as this version is, why did he ever take it off? How did Sauron lose in the first place... actually thinking about that question I wonder if Gandalf does have some move for destroying it and if Frodo isn't being outplayed.
u/BT_Uytya [+7] The Laundry (17 hours later)
Gollum I can imagine makes sense as he planned the optimal strategy for keeping the ring was to hide in the mountain
According to Lord of Rationality, Gollum didn't just hide in the caverns, he created an empire:
The horror of the Misty Mountains, thinking, always thinking in the dark; ruling the goblins from the shadows and filling the tunnels with traps ... Gollum had given up on sending his agents against the Shire...
u/Transfuturist [+3] Carthago delenda est. (8 hours later)
Yeah, a rational Hobbit would be really interesting, even just with the small amount of backstory /u/writingathing gave about Gollum.
u/BT_Uytya [+2] The Laundry (17 hours later)
I feel the same way. I was thinking about it one day: how it is possible to destroy the One Ring in this universe? My best solution was to recruit Saruman and genetically engineer dragons with a flame hot enough to melt the One:
It has been said that dragon-fire could melt and consume the Rings of Power, but there is not now any dragon left on earth in which the old fire is hot enough; nor was there ever any dragon, not even Ancalagon the Black, who could have harmed the One Ring, the Ruling Ring, for that was made by Sauron himself.
This passage isn't very encouraging per se, but it leaves the possibility of creating artificial superhot flame sources (maybe with dragon and some sort of industrial scale bellows).
Also, did I mention that Balrogs are Maiar, so Durin's Bane is a creature form the same tier as Sauron, Gandalf and Saruman? It looks plausible that Balrog could melt the One... or decide to keep it to itself, and then wreak a havoc on a Middle-Earth.
u/CCC_037 [+4] (a day later)
I feel the same way. I was thinking about it one day: how it is possible to destroy the One Ring in this universe?
Simple. Throw it into the Sun.
- The Sun is hotter than Mount Doom. If Mount Doom is hot enough to unmake the Ring, then so is the Sun.
- The Sun has a surface area about ten million times the surface area of the Earth, and any point on that surface will do. Sauron cannot possibly have the troops to guard even a tiny fraction of a percent of it.
- Gandalf's magic can throw things around. This can be used as a reactionless thrust for steering the rocket.
- Ten minutes' conversation between Gandalf and a Ring-bearer should give Gandalf enough information to create a simple rocket, suitable for a single one-way trip to the Sun. (Gandalf already has fireworks).
- The rocket will, of course, need to carry a small crew, in case Sauron has some surprises prepared in orbit. Fortunately, since he would be expecting either an expedition to Mount Doom or the use of the Ring on the battlefield, he is unlikely to devote much resources to this remote possibility - especially since, as the rocket can launch from anywhere, it is hard to know where to intercept it.
- The crew will need to consist of, at the very minimum, Gandalf for steering purposes, a Ring-bearer, and a few others to keep an eye on each other and make sure that the Ring gets destroyed. If the crew is extremely lucky, Gandalf may be able to find some way to turn the rocket around after the Ring is dropped into the Sun; however, it is almost inevitable that the crew will perish with the Ring. (I doubt this will stop the Fellowship from making the attempt).
- Once the rocket has launched, it will be necessary to keep Sauron's Eye fixed firmly on the ground for as long as possible; a single glance skyward might easily result in the frantic construction of interception rockets all through Mordor. (Sauron will not be expecting the craft not to turn around and come back, so he's likely to design any intercepters to try to catch the Fellowship only after they try to slow down - by the time he figures out that they're not planning on slowing down, it'll likely be too late to intercept them)
u/Jiro_T [+3] (a day later)
Unless "fast enough that it can't be intercepted" means exactly fast enough so that you have to speed up for 100% of the trip, you should be able to speed up the rocket, toss the ring out, and slow down/change trajectory. The ring will continue on the trajectory of the rocket as of the time you thrw it out the window.
Also, depending on how magic works, you could conjure some U-235 or antimatter. Nuclear explosions are hotter than volcanoes.
u/CCC_037 [+3] (a day later)
While a force large enough to prevent the Ring being thrown into the Sun can't exist, a small contingent of orcs with perhaps a single Nazgul to provide steering could wait in fairly close orbit around the Sun and intercept anything on a ballistic trajectory - assuming they have enough time to see it coming. So the Fellowship of the Ring will want to maintain the ability to see what's around and steer around it until they're close enough to the Sun to be sure that the Ring can't be intercepted.
At the same time, if Sauron ever catches wind of this plan, one or more orcish space programs could start up - they just need to accelerate more than the Ring, catch up, and launch the Ring away from the Sun (another set of orcs can pick it up and return it to Sauron). Speeding up 100% of the time dramatically reduces the odds of interception (at the same time, it increases the fuel requirements and thus reduces the initial acceleration of the rocket - some calculation would be necessary to find the optimal amount of fuel). Turning around requires carrying extra fuel without increasing the odds of destroying the Ring.
Also, depending on how magic works, you could conjure some U-235 or antimatter. Nuclear explosions are hotter than volcanoes.
You would need to know about the properties of U-235 or antimatter. I don't see anywhere that the Ring provides extra knowledge about physics, it merely (and dramatically) increases intelligence, and I don't think Middle-Earths physicists have got that far yet.
u/Transfuturist [+8] Carthago delenda est. (2 days later)
So the Fellowship of the Ring will want to maintain the ability to see what's around and steer around it until they're close enough to the Sun to be sure that the Ring can't be intercepted.
...Are we seriously talking about having the Fellowship build a space program to destroy the Ring?
I love this subreddit. This means that there will be no last-minute salvation, as it will take eight minutes for the ring's destruction to reach Sauron and his armies.
u/CCC_037 [+1] (2 days later)
...Are we seriously talking about having the Fellowship build a space program to destroy the Ring?
It makes a lot of sense, really.
This means that there will be no last-minute salvation, as it will take eight minutes for the ring's destruction to reach Sauron and his armies.
That just means that the last minute happens eight minutes earlier.
u/Transfuturist [+1] Carthago delenda est. (3 days later)
And in those eight minutes, everyone's last minute for salvation already passed.
But jokes aside, it doesn't happen eight minutes later, it happens something like fifty to a hundred years later, and to do that they have to accept the industrialization that Sauron and Saruman represent. A space program is not exactly something a medieval society under attack by a growing evil can accomplish before being conquered.
u/CCC_037 [+1] (3 days later)
You might be able to skimp a bit on the infrastructure by using magic - such as, for example, having Gandalf act as the steering rockets - and you can of course skimp a lot more if you don't care about being able to launch a second craft, don't care whether your launch site survives, and don't bother to include any means for the astronauts to return... then you just basically need an airtight box and a whole lot of gunpowder.
u/alexeyr [+2] Steersman (20 days later)
The Sun has a surface area about ten million times the surface area of the Earth, and any point on that surface will do. Sauron cannot possibly have the troops to guard even a tiny fraction of a percent of it.
Slight problem: this Sun is a magical fruit steered by another Maia.
u/CCC_037 [+1] (23 days later)
...I thought Middle-Earth was supposed to have taken place in the ancient past of this universe...
u/alexeyr [+2] Steersman (a month later)
But e.g. the Earth there used to be flat (by the time of LotR it isn't anymore).
u/CCC_037 [+1] (a month later)
Well, that's news to me. (I've read LotR, but hardly any of the other background stories). Wouldn't going from a flat to a spherical world result in massive upheavals of the crust, volcanos, earthquakes, floods, and the extinction of pretty much everything?
u/alexeyr [+2] Steersman (a month later)
"It's magic, I don't have to explain it". Well, it should, but this was a direct action by the God, who apparently decided it wouldn't. A large island got sunk (intentionally) by a huge wave, but even the coastal settlements on the nearest continent apparently weren't affected.
u/CCC_037 [+1] (a month later)
But, but, the basic geometry is different! They're spontaneously switching from a zero-curvature space to a positive-curvature space on the surface of the planet! You can't fit the same continents in, you either need to make bits of land vanish or put new bits of land in! I mean, sure, I guess the extra land could have just vanished/appeared without any fuss, but I'm sure people would have noticed when they started needing to update all their maps...
Actually... that suggests another course of action to solve the "Sun is a fruit" problem. It just adds another step to the plan; step one: Convince God to change the Sun from a glowing fruit into a giant nuclear furnace billions of kilometres across. (Step two: Throw the Ring into it).
u/alexeyr [+2] Steersman (a month later)
I didn't mention it, but at least one (large) continent was removed from the world as well. And placed... somewhere. Except you can still sail to it. Provided you are an Elf or a Wizard. Or Bilbo or Frodo, who get special permission. Or Sam or Gimli, who maybe do. If anyone not on the list sneaks on board of an Elven ship going there, it'll just sail around the world. See above re magic.
but I'm sure people would have noticed when they started needing to update all their maps...
Oh, they did notice it was possible to sail around the world now. The weird thing is that the geography of the continent LotR takes place on apparently didn't change.
step one: Convince God to change the Sun from a glowing fruit into a giant nuclear furnace billions of kilometres across.
Sorry, no way to talk to him while remaining inside the universe unless you happen to be the chief angel (and if you can get outside, you'll kind of die). On the other hand, it's possible he already did this while turning the world round, though not explicitly mentioned (as you say, it is supposed to become our Earth eventually).
u/CCC_037 [+1] (a month later)
The weird thing is that the geography of the continent LotR takes place on apparently didn't change.
That's not weird. That's geometrically impossible. Unless (a) the LOTR world was previously on some positively-curved but non-spherical geometry or (b) it ended up becoming a torus instead of a sphere.
Consider a triangle with vertices in far-distant places, like the Shire. Mordor and... um... Lothlorien. (Or any three far-distant places on the same continent which are not colinear). In changing from a flat to a spherical world, the three angles of that triangle must change.
(Or, (c), the continent remains flat and just grows really big cliffs on all sides, but then the direction of perceived gravity on the outer edges will shift somewhat, rivers will start to flow towards the centre of the continent, and people will have to find paths down the cliffs in order to use ships at all).
Sorry, no way to talk to him while remaining inside the universe unless you happen to be the chief angel (and if you can get outside, you'll kind of die).
Ah, that at least is no problem, The persuasion does not have to be verbal, the Ring-bearer simply needs to arrange for the universe to be such that God will turn the Sun into a giant nuclear furnace. This may require persuading the Chief Angel to have a word...
u/alexeyr [+2] Steersman (a month later)
Consider a triangle with vertices in far-distant places, like the Shire. Mordor and... um... Lothlorien. (Or any three far-distant places on the same continent which are not colinear). In changing from a flat to a spherical world, the three angles of that triangle must change.
Of course. What I meant is that changes weren't large enough to be mentioned by Tolkien, not that it didn't change at all.
u/CCC_037 [+1] (a month later)
...I guess if the continent was small enough, and the curvature of the planet high enough, then the differences would be fairly minor - a mile more here, a mile less there. The planet could even have been left super-large (thus having low curvature) and gradually shrunk to make the changes less sudden and thus less noticeable...
u/Transfuturist [+2] Carthago delenda est. (23 hours later)
form the same tier
They're classes, not tiers. Gandalf and Saruman are not on the same level as Sauron, but Gandalf at least is about the same level as Durin's Bane.
u/Empiricist_or_not [+1] Aspiring polite Hegemonizing swarm (a day later)
I could be mistaken but if I remember my Silmarillion they are the same teir, but the obvious power difference is because Sauron was basically an apprentice to Melkor (the Satan equivalent).
u/None [+7] (5 hours later)
This is surreal. I remember writing this, but I don't feel like I did. For one, it doesn't dissolve into crack halfway through.
I guess I should clean it up and put it somewhere more readable.
And add some crack.
u/Transfuturist [+5] Carthago delenda est. (6 hours later)
I don't even want to smoke the kind of crack that follows that last line.
u/CCC_037 [+6] (a day later)
Okay, I can see what you were going for here - a cautionary tale of a boxed superintelligence escaping from said Box.
The thing is, I don't think you quite got it. To be fair, I'm not sure that it's possible to quite get it.
I think - and this is purely my impression - that if you want to get what I think you were aiming for, then the impression you need to leave with your readers is not "the Council was tossing around the Idiot Ball" but rather "okay, I can see that they made the wrong decision from my privileged position outside the story, but I can understand why they made it" (or, better yet, "okay, I can see that they made the wrong decision, but they didn't have any choice").
As it stands, I can see a lot of very simple ways by which the Council could have stopped the Ringbearer. First and simplest, is for Gandalf to stick with what he said - that he will not unparalyze Frodo until the Ring is removed (that is to say, to make Gandalf's precommitment binding). A second important point is raised by Elrond - "This idea depends solely on the word of the one who wears the Ring and one who wore it" - and never answered. Instead the word of one who wears the ring makes promises - tempting promises, but the core objection, that their source is one who wears the Ring, is discarded and laid aside. One would think Elrond would spot that; one would think Gandalf would see that. That both of them promptly forget that point, after it has been brought up, seems a clear indication that there's an Idiot Ball in the room.
u/Transfuturist [+3] Carthago delenda est. (2 days later)
You should direct this to /u/writingathing.
u/CCC_037 [+1] (2 days later)
Ah. Apologies. I assumed you'd written it, as you'd posted it.
Still, now that you've tagged his username (thanks for that) he'll be able to easily find the post...
u/None [+3] (3 days later)
¯_(ツ)_/¯
guys i never actually thought about this it was just fun to write ;____; no we're not building goddamn space program to get rid of the ring sheezus
u/Transfuturist [+3] Carthago delenda est. (a minute later)
Probably inspired by (though I don't remember how I found it) the Lord of the Rationality omake in HPMOR. Thanks to /u/noggin-scratcher for reminding me.
u/Sailor_Vulcan [+2] Champion of Justice and Reason (2 hours later)
this was pretty good. would love to see more!
u/Uncaffeinated [+1] (6 days later)
I seem to have lost access. What happened?
Guess this'll teach me to procrastinate on reading.
u/Transfuturist [+1] Carthago delenda est. (6 days later)
/u/writingathing deleted their account...