scrape_r_rational/data/cache2/3w6ccj.md

[Challenge Companion] Deal With the Devil

• Author: u/alexanderwales Time flies like an arrow*

• URL: https://www.reddit.com/r/rational/comments/3w6ccj/challenge_companion_deal_with_the_devil/

• Score: 10

• Created: 2015-12-10T04:25:13

Post:

The deal with the devil is probably exemplified by the various tellings of Faust, though he usually doesn't do all that much with his demonic powers or otherworldly knowledge, which is usually part of the point.

The demonic pact is almost never shown as being a net positive for the person making the deal; it's almost always either the devil in question being a dick and using legalese, or short term gains (youth, money, power, etc.) in return for long term problems (eternal torture). For whatever reason, devils don't engage in positive sum exchanges, probably because the mythos came about prior to the most seminal works of economics, or because it's not narratively convenient, or because they're devils.

This is the companion thread for the weekly challenge. Found a story that seems like it fits? Have some insight into the challenge topic? Post it here.

(Apologies for posting this late.)

Comments:

u/LiteralHeadCannon [+13] (2 hours later)

The utility function of a Faustian devil either is or is contingent upon persuading people to make taboo tradeoffs of their own free will. All sorts of magic may be offered in exchange for a deal, but only minimal magic may be used to push the deal, and no mind magic - mind magic would defy the point of the archetype, of corrupting people through their inherent moral flaws. In this sense, the Faustian devil is a foil to the common conception of God as a being who values humans' virtuosity, but values their free choice more highly - the Faustian devil also apparently values humans' ability to freely choose, but wants the opposite choice.

u/Sparkwitch [+8] (22 hours later)

Yes, and I'd argue that the strongest Faustian bargain stories are ones where there's no need for the devil to deliberately undermine the protagonist's choices. The individual is corrupt, or they wouldn't have taken the bargain, so the decisions they make are necessarily corrupt decisions. Deals with devils are tragedy and farce.

Cruel devils are more comforting, they let us imagine that we're not responsible for the poor outcomes of our choices. We had free will, sure, but somebody else was still the architect of our misery. At worst we're only to blame for not thinking things all the way through.

The best devils are fair. They give the hero what he thinks he wants, and then watches as he destroys or devalues it. The grass isn't actually as green on the other side of the fence, and unearned success is fickle and fleeting.

The hero wasn't unhappy because of his worldly trappings, he was unhappy because he was already corrupt. No magic power could comfort or satisfy him.

Perhaps not an outlook particularly suited to Rational Fiction, but an extremely common one in the whole of human storytelling.

u/NotAHeroYet [+3] City of Angles Municipal Government (2 days later)

To be fair, you could make a devils that run on that- ones whose only price is that you already be corrupt.

And then see what the most good a person could do with that would be. A person who's corrupt, but whose goals aren't. a person who'd want to bring about world peace, just to prove himself better than everyone who failed before. Someone rational and evil, but with enough likable traits that that doesn't matter. He'll never be satisfied, but that just means he'll try to do even better things for the world.

EDIT: I just realized i almost described ventanari, but without the intelegence.

Maybe he wins, for a given value of victory. maybe he loses, but we get to watch the fall. Maybe it's neither, or both.

u/LiteralHeadCannon [+2] (2 days later)

If your "price" is "already be corrupt when I meet you", then it's not really a deal with the devil story, it's a "run around giving superpowers to bad people" story. I haven't read it yet but I gather that that's a description of Worm.

u/NotAHeroYet [+1] City of Angles Municipal Government (2 days later)

To be fair, yes. I suppose i meant that and an actual price, but a "fair" one.

Worm is more a "run around giving messed up and pre-traumatized people superpowers that then mess mess them up further."

Coincidentally, the main cause of triggers leaves no fallback-net to avoid villiany.

Though, to be fair, we could have a deal with the dark gods- which, like light gods, offer power to their followers, are fickle about when and why they give it, can tell your true motivations, and basically are just like normal gods, only instead of freindly things like justified violence or lethal thunderbolts, is of unfreindly things, like night terrors and irrational murder

u/None [+1] (a day later)

All sorts of magic may be offered in exchange for a deal, but only minimal magic may be used to push the deal, and no mind magic - mind magic would defy the point of the archetype, of corrupting people through their inherent moral flaws.

Hmmm... actually, I'd find a reverse-Kyubee more interesting at this point: entirely willing to use large amounts of magic in the process of persuasion, but also able to be repelled simply by saying "no, fuck off." Dealing with him becomes a puzzle: figure out, via observing his avoidance behaviors, what can actually make him leave you alone.

Or another subversion, like in C: Money of Soul, in which the Mephistopheles character isn't actually allowing any choice whatsoever, and supplies only an illusion of choice to keep main characters from coming after his head.

There's also the question of what's being sold: a Faustian devil inclined to offer a fat compensation package full of things the victim already wants is going to have an easy time of it (after all, giving people stuff they want in exchange is already the ordinary, civilized, rational way of persuading others to do things you want).

u/literal-hitler [+6] (an hour later)

In Time Braid there's a little bit on the topic with the sharingan. One of the things that stuck with me was a quote saying it was designed to tempt mortals into utter depravity, not empower heroes.

Of course the difference is you actually have to sacrifice something to gain that power, so the cost is supposedly up front.

u/IomKg [+6] (7 hours later)

Does kyuubey count?

u/LiteralHeadCannon [+3] (8 hours later)

Absolutely; PMMM is a classic Deal With The Devil story. There's even Faust quotes in the background graffiti.

Just about a month or so ago I finally gave in to becoming an even bigger nerd and started watching animes, btw. So far I've seen NGE and PMMM. Love that shit.

u/iamthelowercase [+3] (23 hours later)

Ermahgerd, Evangelion. I've had an idea for it kicking around in my head for gotta be weeks going on months now, so I need to re-watch it, but it's finals era over here!, so I've been kicking on way too many music videos instead of acquiring episodes.

Sorry. I've just got Eva stuff in my head and I really want to talk to someone about it, but I've been holding myself back because my usual crowd hasn't seen any of it and oh my odds, is it messed up.

u/None [+3] (a day later)

Go watch Gurren Lagann to fix the mecha-sized holes in your soul.

u/iamthelowercase [+2] (2 days later)

Lagann is already on my to-watch list, actually.

I don't consider myself to have mecha-sized holes in my soul. It's possible I do, but if so it's not because of Eva.

u/DCarrier [+1] (a month later)

I'm not sure a hole that big can fit in my soul.

u/None [+1] (a month later)

Ok, so get a bigger soul.

u/IomKg [+2] (9 hours later)

just in case

About anime, great for you, if you just started it just means you have so much more great stuff to watch..

u/LiteralHeadCannon [+3] (9 hours later)

He was causing it insofar as he was setting it up and deliberately neglecting to mention it. Same principle as how you "caused someone's death" if you lure them out to the bottom of a cliffside, position a boulder above them, and allow the laws of physics to take their course.

u/IomKg [+1] (9 hours later)

I don't think it was mentioned he was "setting it up", mostly not telling them about it. The rest was just them not understanding that they need to -really- understand what is their wish before they make it.

u/LiteralHeadCannon [+2] (11 hours later)

Actually, he absolutely arranged Sayaka and Kyoko's fates to force Madoka into a contract, and he says as much.

u/IomKg [+1] (11 hours later)

that depends on what do you mean by "arranged".. i don't remember him ever forcing anyone to do anything..

Its like getting a rich person to drive by poor people with an expensive car, thereby causing them to play the lotto. sure its not very nice, and technically it is "arranging" but its not -really- the same as putting someone in a position a rock will fall on them.

u/LiteralHeadCannon [+3] (11 hours later)

More like coughing on a poor person's family to force them to take out a crooked loan to pay their medical bills.

u/IomKg [+3] (12 hours later)

Not personally coughing, but taking a walk with a sick friend along the place where they hang out.. :)

u/DCarrier [+1] (a month later)

They asked him if they could save Sayaka. If he told them that people have tried that exact method many times and it never works, he would have stopped them. He acknowledges that he would have stopped them if there was no benefit to it. Instead, he "answers" their questions with about the same honesty you normally get from him. It's technically correct, but deliberately misleading.

It's like if someone desperate for money who trusts you asks for your opinion on the lottery, and you tell them that you have no way of knowing if they'll win, but someone has to. Sure it's technically correct, but you really should be telling them that they're going to lose.

u/redrach [+2] (a day later)

There's several examples of him deliberately saying things that would put them into situations where Madoka is forced to contract. For example when Kyouko asks him whether she and Madoka can reverse Sayaka's 'condition' he says they should go ahead and try, and later admits to Homura that he knew it would never work. The whole point was to thrust Madoka into another life-threatening situation.

u/IomKg [+1] (2 days later)

i am making the distinction between him actually actively(as opposed to talking to other people in a way which cause that to happen) making things life threatening. while talking to two people that hate each other and suggesting to meet in a particular place where there is someone who you want to put in danger is not very nice it is not the same as hiring thugs to come and threaten the person.

i will admit though that my memory of the series is no longer that fresh so possibly i just forgot.

u/Empiricist_or_not [+2] Aspiring polite Hegemonizing swarm (2 days later)

You might want to watch Lain next and complete the trifecta of mind-bending plots

u/russxbox [+3] (a day later)

I've always been impressed with Spider Robinson's Apogee for a reasonably well-considered deal on both parts. The demon convinces the dealmaker to entirely change their wishes.

u/LiteralHeadCannon [+2] (14 hours later)

Worth noting that my personal favorite Deal With The Devil story, or any story for that matter, is Little Shop Of Horrors; the stage version is best, followed by the director's cut of the '86 movie, followed by the '60 movie (in a distant third).

u/iamthelowercase [+1] (22 hours later)

Probably not RatFic, but the prompt reminded me of it:

/u/rpwrites has a little tale with an unusual Deal with the Devil. Instead of your soul, he wants you to take his daughter on a date. There's also sequels, adding more of a plot and a Clever Twist.

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