55 KiB
[Q][RT] Non-INTJ Rationalist Fiction?
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Author: u/cyril957 *
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URL: https://www.reddit.com/r/rational/comments/3xarzq/qrt_nonintj_rationalist_fiction/
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Score: 18
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Created: 2015-12-18T03:16:09
Post:
As the title indicates, I'm interested in the intersection of rationality skills and rational(ist) fiction on the one hand and personality type (using the well-known Myers-Briggs as an example) on the other. So in the interest of not over-assuming, let's break my inquiry/discussion into three inter-related questions:
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To what extent is rational(ist) fiction or LW-style rationality as it's currently formulated/framed/practiced etc. geared towards INTJ people? My kneejerk reaction is that it is to some degree: HJPEV seems pretty INTJ, as does Taylor from Worm (sorry, those are the two stories in the gamut that I'm most familiar with); and if I remember correctly, INTx individuals made up a full 50% of the last LW census. Is this an accurate impression? Why or why not? There's obviously some value as to figuring out "how the other half lives" if ones goal is to "raise the sanity waterline"; thoughts?
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Is there any good rationalist (not just rational) fiction whose main characters would be best described as not INTx? Obviously more interesting if there is the bias I hypothesized, but an interesting question regardless.
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More practically, how does one go about writing rationalist characters with intentionally different personality types?
Thoughts, anyone?
(Hat tip: Julia Galef's video on the difference between rationality and critical thinking.)
EDIT: There's been a lot of talk about the validity of MBTI in particular, which is interesting and useful; but I want to make clear I meant it as an example. I wasn't aware of some of the criticisms of MBTI, but if I wanted to be more precise, I could probably have replaced "INTJ" with something like "any set of predicates P such that P(P|rationalist)/P(P) > 1.05". Then we could all have debates over statistical validity instead :)
Comments:
u/alexanderwales [+21] Time flies like an arrow (2 hours later)
More practically, how does one go about writing rationalist characters with intentionally different personality types?
- Extroversion-Introversion is pretty easy, and I would say that a number of rational protagonists tend toward E, not I, mostly in terms of throwing themselves into political situations and talking their problems out (which is one of the ways authors have of delivering exposition and/or thoughts). The introverted rationalist is a watcher/spider archetype, while the extroverted rationalist just throws himself into the thick of it and trusts in his abilities to see him through and react better than others do.
- Sensing-Intuition is a little harder. I would say that you'd maybe want to make it a split of tactics and strategy? A good rationalist does both, but you can still express a preference or an aptitude. Sensing rationalists tend to focus on the micro and follow a munchkin or engineer archetype. Intuitive rationalists tend to focus on the macro and follow a scholar archetype. This is more about preferences than anything else. You can be good at the big picture of grand strategy while still preferring the small, concrete things.
- Thinking-Feeling is the hardest, but I think it could still be done. You have to keep in mind that it's still a preference. The feeling rationalist is a peacemaker, always trying to mend bridges or use the principle of charity. They're probably more introspective and pay more attention to their feelings, asking themselves "What's causing me to feel this way?" They're probably more emotionally focused and when dealing with an opponent will be more inclined to get to the root of the emotional arguments rather than the logical ones (which can still be a good path toward winning).
- Judging-Perceiving is another easy one. Improvisation is already a strong rationalist skill and plays well with the extroversion traits. A perceiving rationalist might make for a chessmaster who favors speed chess and generating chaos that they can exploit better than their opponents.
So if our counter-type rationalist hero is ESFP, they're probably outgoing, heavily involved in politics, make decisions on the fly, generate chaos in their wake, and go for the emotional weak spots in their opponents (or aim for conversion). Their advantage is probably moving quickly or moving erratically rather than sitting down for a long time to think things through. When they do sit down for long analysis, it's because it's necessary for winning rather than because they take any joy from it.
u/None [+11] (6 hours later)
[deleted]
u/ZeroNihilist [+13] (7 hours later)
Outside Worm, it describes the protagonist of Twig (by the same author, Wildbow) to perfection.
In case you haven't heard of it, a quick summary: the British win the war for independence in the US using biotech superweapons. At one US academy, an experimental group of bioengineered children (focussing on social manipulation rather than brute force) is pitted against a new revolution in a war fought with words, monsters, and potent chemicals.
u/None [+5] (21 hours later)
Yeeeeessss. I was going to say that. Sy, so much Sy.
u/Cruithne [+2] Light Sith epistemologist (2 days later)
Yes! I read it and thought it had been deliberately written with him in mind.
u/alexanderwales [+9] Time flies like an arrow (6 hours later)
Interesting, I was thinking Tattletale.
u/msmcg [+8] (7 hours later)
Tattletale doesn't receive insight via rationalism, she receives it via magic. If she did what she does without a passenger it would be evidence that she is an incredible rationalist - however, she's basically cheating at rationality.
u/alexanderwales [+8] Time flies like an arrow (14 hours later)
I was speaking in terms of psychological preference, not rationality.
u/None [+3] (4 days later)
Tattletale doesn't receive insight via rationalism, she receives it via magic
Pretty sure that's wrong. Look at how Tt's power works. Remember it's weaknesses and restrictions? That doesn't really look like magic intuition powers to me. That looks like something with ungodly amounts of processing power and a great grasp of heuristics and reasoning making connections in seconds that would require hours or days for a normal human.
I think Tt's power is extremely rapid deduction and hypothesis generation (with heuristics) or more concisely, Tt's power allows her to think better. It's not magic and it is fallible.
It's just headcanon, but I find this explanation far more satisfying than proposing that Tt's shard somehow being able to accurately deduce mental dispositions, floor layouts, and facilitate computer hacking, while at the same time making mistakes often enough that Tt has to work around it (remember the bank robbery?).
That said, good deduction skills and super-thinking doesn't make someone a rationalist, and Tt's isn't one by any stretch of the imagination (although, one might make a case for her shard).
u/msmcg [+2] (5 days later)
Fair criticism of my point. I think current-me may agree with you more than I agree with past-me.
u/serge_cell [+2] (2 days later)
It wouldn't matter if the passenger get answers by inference from the data - it would still be a composite rational person - Tattletale+passenger If passenger get answers by time travel or clairvoyance or like - it wouldn't be rational of cause. Former is more likely from TT power description though.
u/Roxolan [+3] Head of antimemetiWalmart senior assistant manager (12 hours later)
You might enjoy Weaver Nine, an AU of Worm focused on Jack Slash as a quick-thinking, socially manipulative hero. (It's as rational as Worm is.) It also has the best AU Bonesaw ever.
u/buckykat [+3] (13 hours later)
It also sounds like miles naismith vorkosigan
u/MaxIsAlwaysRight [+6] (11 hours later)
if our counter-type rationalist hero is ESFP, they're probably outgoing, heavily involved in politics, make decisions on the fly, generate chaos in their wake, and go for the emotional weak spots in their opponents
It sounds like you're describing Yudkowsky's rational antagonists.
u/serge_cell [+1] (2 days later)
Exact description of Tattletale from the Worm
u/kaukamieli [+4] (13 hours later)
Intuitive rationalists tend to focus on the macro and follow a scholar archetype.
Like a wise old wizard, trying to save the world by puppeteering a party of heroes.
A perceiving rationalist might make for a chessmaster who favors speed chess and generating chaos that they can exploit better than their opponents.
Like... the chaos army? ;)
u/duffmancd [+9] (4 hours later)
Non-science of Myers-Briggs aside, if you're looking for examples the first that comes to mind is Peter Wiggan (E) from Orson Scott Card. He's focussed on a lot more in the Ender's Shadow sub-series. Tiffany Aching (P) from Terry Pratchett is another example in deliberate Rationalist fiction.
I think the reason for this lack is that the rationalist crowd is small and new and the kernel is from a group overrepresented by "INTJ" cluster individuals. People write what they know best, particularly in how their characters think.
u/turbinicarpus [+4] (17 hours later)
I don't know the Myers-Briggs typology off the top of my head, but what about Luminosity and its sequel Radiance, by Alicorn? (Elcenia.com appears to be down at the moment, but it's also up on fanfiction.net.)
u/TimeLoopedPowerGamer [+14] Utopian Smut Peddler (58 minutes later)
Reddit has long been a hot spot for conversation on the internet. About 57 million people visit the site every day to chat about topics as varied as makeup, video games and pointers for power washing driveways.
In recent years, Reddit’s array of chats also have been a free teaching aid for companies like Google, OpenAI and Microsoft. Those companies are using Reddit’s conversations in the development of giant artificial intelligence systems that many in Silicon Valley think are on their way to becoming the tech industry’s next big thing.
Now Reddit wants to be paid for it. The company said on Tuesday that it planned to begin charging companies for access to its application programming interface, or A.P.I., the method through which outside entities can download and process the social network’s vast selection of person-to-person conversations.
“The Reddit corpus of data is really valuable,” Steve Huffman, founder and chief executive of Reddit, said in an interview. “But we don’t need to give all of that value to some of the largest companies in the world for free.”
The move is one of the first significant examples of a social network’s charging for access to the conversations it hosts for the purpose of developing A.I. systems like ChatGPT, OpenAI’s popular program. Those new A.I. systems could one day lead to big businesses, but they aren’t likely to help companies like Reddit very much. In fact, they could be used to create competitors — automated duplicates to Reddit’s conversations.
Reddit is also acting as it prepares for a possible initial public offering on Wall Street this year. The company, which was founded in 2005, makes most of its money through advertising and e-commerce transactions on its platform. Reddit said it was still ironing out the details of what it would charge for A.P.I. access and would announce prices in the coming weeks.
Reddit’s conversation forums have become valuable commodities as large language models, or L.L.M.s, have become an essential part of creating new A.I. technology.
L.L.M.s are essentially sophisticated algorithms developed by companies like Google and OpenAI, which is a close partner of Microsoft. To the algorithms, the Reddit conversations are data, and they are among the vast pool of material being fed into the L.L.M.s. to develop them.
u/alexanderwales [+27] Time flies like an arrow (an hour later)
It's still useful for description. The E-I axis is just extraversion-introversion, which is useful for description. Same goes for T-F, which is just thinking-feeling, which is also useful. I think that saying "INTJ" is helpful because it sums up a lot of things about a character very quickly. So ... trash non-science or no, I don't think there's much sense in just throwing it out, any more than you should throw out other quick descriptive tools.
u/electrace [+17] (2 hours later)
Extroversion versus introversion is very much a spectrum. The dichotomy Myers-Brigs presents is a reduction, but a somewhat useful one.
Sensory versus Intuition seems particularly bad, in that I can't think of anyone outside of 1-dimensional personalities in fiction who don't do both, and few who could even be considered leaning to one side or the other.
The thinking versus feeling seems... weird. It's basically asking if you generally use Type 1 or 2 reasoning, but kind of not. I'd imagine that in the vast majority of cases, your results from your previous two categories would pretty much determine the result of this one. Yay, multicollinearity!
Judging versus perceiving, also weird. Very few people would actually include anything that could be described by this category when describing someone's personality. It's like they really wanted a 4 letter system, and this was the best they could come up with.
At the end, when you're looking at all the personality types, they pretty much are a mix between horoscopes, and a straw-man factory for what personalities are actually like.
My opinion? If you mean extroverted/introverted, use the words. Anything else on the list seems to have either poor definitions, or isn't really all that useful when describing someone's personality.
u/alexanderwales [+10] Time flies like an arrow (2 hours later)
I can't think of anyone outside of 1-dimensional personalities in fiction who don't do both
While I largely agree with you, Meyers-Briggs isn't about what you use, it's about what you prefer to use, to the extent you have a preference. When taken from that angle, I think it becomes somewhat more useful.
u/electrace [+4] (2 hours later)
While I largely agree with you, Meyers-Briggs isn't about what you use, it's about what you prefer to use, to the extent you have a preference.
Really? The one I took asked what I tended to use.
In any case, I don't think that that is very indicative of my personality.
Pretty much every question on that test had me saying, "Well, that would depend on the situation."
Ex: "Do you tend to think things through, or act on impluse?"
Me: "I don't know. Am I fighting a bear, or doing a math problem, because that's gonna pretty heavily influence my answer.
Another example "Do you tend to plan things out, or figure it out as you go."
Me: "I don't know. How much is the event in question stressing me out?"
If it had asked me what I'd prefer to use, the results wouldn't have really been much different. I prefer to use whatever fits the situation, and that's also what I tend to use.
Some questions basically had me flipping a coin, because both answers were wrong. I don't see how useful the result could possibly be.
u/alexanderwales [+7] Time flies like an arrow (3 hours later)
From Wikipedia:
Note that the terms used for each dichotomy have specific technical meanings relating to the MBTI which differ from their everyday usage. For example, people who prefer judgment over perception are not necessarily more judgmental or less perceptive. Nor does the MBTI instrument measure aptitude; it simply indicates for one preference over another. Someone reporting a high score for extraversion over introversion cannot be correctly described as more extraverted: they simply have a clear preference.
I think a large part of the problem with MBTI is that it's been endlessly watered down by a combination of people who don't actually understand it (lots of freshman psych students), the difficulty of making a test that actually measures what it's trying to measure, and the proliferation of less-than-certified tests, all of which are compounded by the fact that they're using terms in nonstandard ways which are also quite close to their everyday usage (and also heavily correlated -- you're more likely to display aptitude at skills you prefer using because you use them more often).
I agree that there's a large degree of "why would I use a hammer when the situation calls for a screwdriver?" but that's something that exceedingly hard to get away from for some of the dichotomies, especially because the concepts are so abstract and adding in more details to the questions just results in confounding factors creeping in. It's one of the many reasons that I think MBTI is lacking as a diagnostic tool -- but that doesn't mean that it can't offer insights into characters.
Edit: See On Types of Typologies @ Slate Star Codex for more on the topic.
u/electrace [+2] (4 hours later)
It's one of the many reasons that I think MBTI is lacking as a diagnostic tool -- but that doesn't mean that it can't offer insights into characters.
If by characters you mean fictional characters, than I'd agree. It might actually work for them. That's what these 4 letter codes are, personalities for fictional characters.
Fictional characters have these types of personalities because it's much easier to conceptualize a personality than to conceptualize an entire person, so I can agree with you there. People are complicated.
However, while it does have use, it seems oddly restrictive. Rather than saying "An introverted person who plans ahead of time" it forces a 4 letter code that, as you note, has been endlessly watered down.
Why not just describe what you want to describe instead of using Myers Briggs?
u/None [+4] (3 hours later)
[removed]
u/electrace [+4] (4 hours later)
Well, there are many versions of the test, some have better formulated questions than others. Try http://www.16personalities.com/
Will my life be noticeably better if I know that 16personalities classifies me as XXXX instead of YYYY? If I don't trust the assumptions behind the test, there isn't a reason for me to take it.
Are you often chased by bears? Do you take exams every day? It asks if there's a specific tendency in your normal actions in day-to-day life, like when you're grocery shopping or whatever.
Again, that has more to do with what situations I find myself in, not my personality. I can't conceive of a neutral situation in which you do exactly as good using type 1 thinking as you do using type 2 thinking. But that's exactly the kind of situation you need in order to answer a question like that... at which point, my answer would be "Either," and I imagine that most people's would be the same, unless they like Type 1 or Type 2 thinking for the sake of itself.
And if you consider yourself doing a little of both, great, there's a neutral option which you should take on that question.
Which is good, but effectively makes the question pointless, because it doesn't add to your score for one side or the other.
And the results shouldn't be seen as dichotomy by the way, just on what half of the spectrums you seem to lie. It will also tell you whether you are close to the 50/50 mark or at an extreme, even though that information isn't conveyed by the four-letter combination.
If they didn't want it to be taken as a dichotomy, then they have a terrible way of presenting the data. It wouldn't be difficult to use percentages
u/madcatlady [+3] (10 hours later)
Don't forget, E/I is not by modern use of the word. A lot of people use these incorrectly and misattribute themselves or others. I am quite extroverted/ bold. I am a solid MB Introvert/ solitary worker. I am happiest if I get my own downtime, and would happily work solo for days on end. My actually shy Extroverted husband would be depressed and lackluster if he didn't have human contact after about 2 hours.
u/TimeLoopedPowerGamer [+2] Utopian Smut Peddler (a day later)
Reddit has long been a hot spot for conversation on the internet. About 57 million people visit the site every day to chat about topics as varied as makeup, video games and pointers for power washing driveways.
In recent years, Reddit’s array of chats also have been a free teaching aid for companies like Google, OpenAI and Microsoft. Those companies are using Reddit’s conversations in the development of giant artificial intelligence systems that many in Silicon Valley think are on their way to becoming the tech industry’s next big thing.
Now Reddit wants to be paid for it. The company said on Tuesday that it planned to begin charging companies for access to its application programming interface, or A.P.I., the method through which outside entities can download and process the social network’s vast selection of person-to-person conversations.
“The Reddit corpus of data is really valuable,” Steve Huffman, founder and chief executive of Reddit, said in an interview. “But we don’t need to give all of that value to some of the largest companies in the world for free.”
The move is one of the first significant examples of a social network’s charging for access to the conversations it hosts for the purpose of developing A.I. systems like ChatGPT, OpenAI’s popular program. Those new A.I. systems could one day lead to big businesses, but they aren’t likely to help companies like Reddit very much. In fact, they could be used to create competitors — automated duplicates to Reddit’s conversations.
Reddit is also acting as it prepares for a possible initial public offering on Wall Street this year. The company, which was founded in 2005, makes most of its money through advertising and e-commerce transactions on its platform. Reddit said it was still ironing out the details of what it would charge for A.P.I. access and would announce prices in the coming weeks.
Reddit’s conversation forums have become valuable commodities as large language models, or L.L.M.s, have become an essential part of creating new A.I. technology.
L.L.M.s are essentially sophisticated algorithms developed by companies like Google and OpenAI, which is a close partner of Microsoft. To the algorithms, the Reddit conversations are data, and they are among the vast pool of material being fed into the L.L.M.s. to develop them.
u/alexanderwales [+3] Time flies like an arrow (a day later)
As they aren't scientifically grounded in any way, the terms mean whatever the user wants. It is like tarot or horoscopes. Just another way of casting bones [...]
The primary difference between MBTI and a horoscope is that a horoscope doesn't take in any information and in theory (and practice) it's indistinguishable from random chance. The same can't be said for MBTI. Go find someone who doesn't know their MBTI type, or better, has never heard of MBTI, then have them take three different tests without letting them know the results until all the tests have been completed.
It would be ludicrous to think that the results are going to be no better than random chance. MBTI sucks for a number of reasons, but the classification scheme it uses still classifies things in a way that (for example) blood type theory, astrological signs, etc. do not.
The two big problems with MBTI is that its four dimensions were chosen through intuition rather than factor analysis, and that it proposes a bimodal distribution that's not there. The latter is a serious problem, but it's not "means whatever the user wants". If we were talking about height which has a normal distribution, and I was some kind of moron who only classified people into "tall" or "short", my descriptions would still be useful to you, even though I would have all sorts of measurement error, especially when I was looking at someone who was of medium height. Me telling you that someone is "short" is worth a lot less if I can't actually express how short, and obviously it would be more optimal for me to be able to give you a measurement in centimeters, but that doesn't mean that my stupid bimodal "short" and "tall" system is meaningless or nonuseful. It's both meaningful and useful, while also being unscientific, suboptimal, error-prone, and removing important information about variability. That's MBTI.
Edit: If you want to read a study about the problems with MBTI, read this one, which goes over test-retest reliability, problems with applying bimodal categories to traits with normal distribution, and factor analysis.
u/TimeLoopedPowerGamer [+2] Utopian Smut Peddler (a day later)
Reddit has long been a hot spot for conversation on the internet. About 57 million people visit the site every day to chat about topics as varied as makeup, video games and pointers for power washing driveways.
In recent years, Reddit’s array of chats also have been a free teaching aid for companies like Google, OpenAI and Microsoft. Those companies are using Reddit’s conversations in the development of giant artificial intelligence systems that many in Silicon Valley think are on their way to becoming the tech industry’s next big thing.
Now Reddit wants to be paid for it. The company said on Tuesday that it planned to begin charging companies for access to its application programming interface, or A.P.I., the method through which outside entities can download and process the social network’s vast selection of person-to-person conversations.
“The Reddit corpus of data is really valuable,” Steve Huffman, founder and chief executive of Reddit, said in an interview. “But we don’t need to give all of that value to some of the largest companies in the world for free.”
The move is one of the first significant examples of a social network’s charging for access to the conversations it hosts for the purpose of developing A.I. systems like ChatGPT, OpenAI’s popular program. Those new A.I. systems could one day lead to big businesses, but they aren’t likely to help companies like Reddit very much. In fact, they could be used to create competitors — automated duplicates to Reddit’s conversations.
Reddit is also acting as it prepares for a possible initial public offering on Wall Street this year. The company, which was founded in 2005, makes most of its money through advertising and e-commerce transactions on its platform. Reddit said it was still ironing out the details of what it would charge for A.P.I. access and would announce prices in the coming weeks.
Reddit’s conversation forums have become valuable commodities as large language models, or L.L.M.s, have become an essential part of creating new A.I. technology.
L.L.M.s are essentially sophisticated algorithms developed by companies like Google and OpenAI, which is a close partner of Microsoft. To the algorithms, the Reddit conversations are data, and they are among the vast pool of material being fed into the L.L.M.s. to develop them.
u/duffmancd [+4] (4 hours later)
/u/TimeLoopedPowerGamer if you want to use big 5, replace INTJ with high openness, low extraversion, low agreeableness (I think) and the question still stands. For or against MB is mostly besides the point. But /u/cyril957 you might want to check out the arguments against MB. I am not an expert but I have heard that it is less useful/consistent/supported than the big 5.
u/cyril957 [+1] (4 days later)
That sounds about right as far as the correlations are concerned (such as they are). It makes me really curious as to how a low Openness rational character might learn. I have a story idea that's been banging around in my head for a while about a gentleman with OCPD (which could be oversimplified as an extreme lack of Openness), and then the question becomes how do you start nudging them in the right direction. In this case when there's something clinical going on, medical assistance would hopefully be first, but a lot of OCPD people especially don't like getting help from what I've read. Hmmm...
u/madcatlady [+3] (10 hours later)
We did it at work recently, and as an INTJ, my boss learned a lot more about how to manage me and I learned a lot more about her too (ES something something). Like a lot of things, it's a label that can be useful for explaining how one relates to their environment.
Yes, if you try and use it as a diagnostic tool, it's as useful as a well written horoscope. If you try and use it to understand someone better, it is a good seed for discussion.
u/TimeLoopedPowerGamer [+4] Utopian Smut Peddler (a day later)
Reddit has long been a hot spot for conversation on the internet. About 57 million people visit the site every day to chat about topics as varied as makeup, video games and pointers for power washing driveways.
In recent years, Reddit’s array of chats also have been a free teaching aid for companies like Google, OpenAI and Microsoft. Those companies are using Reddit’s conversations in the development of giant artificial intelligence systems that many in Silicon Valley think are on their way to becoming the tech industry’s next big thing.
Now Reddit wants to be paid for it. The company said on Tuesday that it planned to begin charging companies for access to its application programming interface, or A.P.I., the method through which outside entities can download and process the social network’s vast selection of person-to-person conversations.
“The Reddit corpus of data is really valuable,” Steve Huffman, founder and chief executive of Reddit, said in an interview. “But we don’t need to give all of that value to some of the largest companies in the world for free.”
The move is one of the first significant examples of a social network’s charging for access to the conversations it hosts for the purpose of developing A.I. systems like ChatGPT, OpenAI’s popular program. Those new A.I. systems could one day lead to big businesses, but they aren’t likely to help companies like Reddit very much. In fact, they could be used to create competitors — automated duplicates to Reddit’s conversations.
Reddit is also acting as it prepares for a possible initial public offering on Wall Street this year. The company, which was founded in 2005, makes most of its money through advertising and e-commerce transactions on its platform. Reddit said it was still ironing out the details of what it would charge for A.P.I. access and would announce prices in the coming weeks.
Reddit’s conversation forums have become valuable commodities as large language models, or L.L.M.s, have become an essential part of creating new A.I. technology.
L.L.M.s are essentially sophisticated algorithms developed by companies like Google and OpenAI, which is a close partner of Microsoft. To the algorithms, the Reddit conversations are data, and they are among the vast pool of material being fed into the L.L.M.s. to develop them.
u/madcatlady [+1] (a day later)
I'm an angry person. Where does this for into neuroscience?
u/SoundLogic2236 [+1] (a day later)
The concept that you can store correlated information using shorter symbols as lossy compression is a provable theorem in modern information theory. If I ask you about a bunch of questions and ask if you do the extroverted thing, and then if most of them you do the extroverted thing, and then label you 'E' that is perfectly valid information theory. If you want information beyond what you put in, you will need modern psychology and neuroscience, but if you want a cheap compression algorithm then it works fine. See http://slatestarcodex.com/2014/05/27/on-types-of-typologies/
u/TimeLoopedPowerGamer [+1] Utopian Smut Peddler (a day later)
Reddit has long been a hot spot for conversation on the internet. About 57 million people visit the site every day to chat about topics as varied as makeup, video games and pointers for power washing driveways.
In recent years, Reddit’s array of chats also have been a free teaching aid for companies like Google, OpenAI and Microsoft. Those companies are using Reddit’s conversations in the development of giant artificial intelligence systems that many in Silicon Valley think are on their way to becoming the tech industry’s next big thing.
Now Reddit wants to be paid for it. The company said on Tuesday that it planned to begin charging companies for access to its application programming interface, or A.P.I., the method through which outside entities can download and process the social network’s vast selection of person-to-person conversations.
“The Reddit corpus of data is really valuable,” Steve Huffman, founder and chief executive of Reddit, said in an interview. “But we don’t need to give all of that value to some of the largest companies in the world for free.”
The move is one of the first significant examples of a social network’s charging for access to the conversations it hosts for the purpose of developing A.I. systems like ChatGPT, OpenAI’s popular program. Those new A.I. systems could one day lead to big businesses, but they aren’t likely to help companies like Reddit very much. In fact, they could be used to create competitors — automated duplicates to Reddit’s conversations.
Reddit is also acting as it prepares for a possible initial public offering on Wall Street this year. The company, which was founded in 2005, makes most of its money through advertising and e-commerce transactions on its platform. Reddit said it was still ironing out the details of what it would charge for A.P.I. access and would announce prices in the coming weeks.
Reddit’s conversation forums have become valuable commodities as large language models, or L.L.M.s, have become an essential part of creating new A.I. technology.
L.L.M.s are essentially sophisticated algorithms developed by companies like Google and OpenAI, which is a close partner of Microsoft. To the algorithms, the Reddit conversations are data, and they are among the vast pool of material being fed into the L.L.M.s. to develop them.
u/SoundLogic2236 [+1] (a day later)
Do you have some sort of citation or argument for this claim?
u/TimeLoopedPowerGamer [+2] Utopian Smut Peddler (2 days later)
Reddit has long been a hot spot for conversation on the internet. About 57 million people visit the site every day to chat about topics as varied as makeup, video games and pointers for power washing driveways.
In recent years, Reddit’s array of chats also have been a free teaching aid for companies like Google, OpenAI and Microsoft. Those companies are using Reddit’s conversations in the development of giant artificial intelligence systems that many in Silicon Valley think are on their way to becoming the tech industry’s next big thing.
Now Reddit wants to be paid for it. The company said on Tuesday that it planned to begin charging companies for access to its application programming interface, or A.P.I., the method through which outside entities can download and process the social network’s vast selection of person-to-person conversations.
“The Reddit corpus of data is really valuable,” Steve Huffman, founder and chief executive of Reddit, said in an interview. “But we don’t need to give all of that value to some of the largest companies in the world for free.”
The move is one of the first significant examples of a social network’s charging for access to the conversations it hosts for the purpose of developing A.I. systems like ChatGPT, OpenAI’s popular program. Those new A.I. systems could one day lead to big businesses, but they aren’t likely to help companies like Reddit very much. In fact, they could be used to create competitors — automated duplicates to Reddit’s conversations.
Reddit is also acting as it prepares for a possible initial public offering on Wall Street this year. The company, which was founded in 2005, makes most of its money through advertising and e-commerce transactions on its platform. Reddit said it was still ironing out the details of what it would charge for A.P.I. access and would announce prices in the coming weeks.
Reddit’s conversation forums have become valuable commodities as large language models, or L.L.M.s, have become an essential part of creating new A.I. technology.
L.L.M.s are essentially sophisticated algorithms developed by companies like Google and OpenAI, which is a close partner of Microsoft. To the algorithms, the Reddit conversations are data, and they are among the vast pool of material being fed into the L.L.M.s. to develop them.
u/SoundLogic2236 [+1] (2 days later)
The key question is though is if you are trying to extract new information via inference, or compress information for easier use. You said you are an Aquarius. If I wanted to try to extract new information from that via inference, I would need some correlation between your birthday and other factors. If I want to extract the fact that your birthday is in the range January 20 - February 18, then THAT is perfectly legal. Knowing that someone is an INTJ tells me something about how they answered the questions on the test, does it not? And if I know something about how they answered the questions on the test, I may know something about their personality. If I give you a test "Do you prefer chocolate ice cream, vanilla ice cream, or are indifferent" and then label you 'C', 'V', or 'I' based that, then concluding if you are an introvert based on that label would be highly questionable. If I want to figure out if you prefer chocolate ice cream, vanilla ice cream, or are indifferent based on if you are a 'C', 'V', or 'I' then that is perfectly legal. Suppose instead of giving you the label, someone gave you the entire set of answers they gave in the test-would you be able to determine anything about their personality? If so, then depending on the form the compressed version of the answers take, you might be able to learn something about their personality. Where as knowing your starsign doesn't help me, since even if I knew your exact birth second I still wouldn't know more about your personality, and your star sign is a lossy compression of your birthtime down to the second.
u/TimeLoopedPowerGamer [+1] Utopian Smut Peddler (3 days later)
Reddit has long been a hot spot for conversation on the internet. About 57 million people visit the site every day to chat about topics as varied as makeup, video games and pointers for power washing driveways.
In recent years, Reddit’s array of chats also have been a free teaching aid for companies like Google, OpenAI and Microsoft. Those companies are using Reddit’s conversations in the development of giant artificial intelligence systems that many in Silicon Valley think are on their way to becoming the tech industry’s next big thing.
Now Reddit wants to be paid for it. The company said on Tuesday that it planned to begin charging companies for access to its application programming interface, or A.P.I., the method through which outside entities can download and process the social network’s vast selection of person-to-person conversations.
“The Reddit corpus of data is really valuable,” Steve Huffman, founder and chief executive of Reddit, said in an interview. “But we don’t need to give all of that value to some of the largest companies in the world for free.”
The move is one of the first significant examples of a social network’s charging for access to the conversations it hosts for the purpose of developing A.I. systems like ChatGPT, OpenAI’s popular program. Those new A.I. systems could one day lead to big businesses, but they aren’t likely to help companies like Reddit very much. In fact, they could be used to create competitors — automated duplicates to Reddit’s conversations.
Reddit is also acting as it prepares for a possible initial public offering on Wall Street this year. The company, which was founded in 2005, makes most of its money through advertising and e-commerce transactions on its platform. Reddit said it was still ironing out the details of what it would charge for A.P.I. access and would announce prices in the coming weeks.
Reddit’s conversation forums have become valuable commodities as large language models, or L.L.M.s, have become an essential part of creating new A.I. technology.
L.L.M.s are essentially sophisticated algorithms developed by companies like Google and OpenAI, which is a close partner of Microsoft. To the algorithms, the Reddit conversations are data, and they are among the vast pool of material being fed into the L.L.M.s. to develop them.
u/SoundLogic2236 [+1] (3 days later)
My best bet for what date range your birthday is in is that date range. Do you disagree with this? It might not be a very good bet, but no other star sign date range would be a better bet. And how do you define 'useful, scientifically studied'? Anything done by a professional scientist? Anything said by Einstein? Anything published in a journal? Anything published in Nature? I can predict with confidence that most people who participate in this subreddit will score INTJ-this is true regardless of what pointless names you assign to things.
u/TimeLoopedPowerGamer [+1] Utopian Smut Peddler (3 days later)
Reddit has long been a hot spot for conversation on the internet. About 57 million people visit the site every day to chat about topics as varied as makeup, video games and pointers for power washing driveways.
In recent years, Reddit’s array of chats also have been a free teaching aid for companies like Google, OpenAI and Microsoft. Those companies are using Reddit’s conversations in the development of giant artificial intelligence systems that many in Silicon Valley think are on their way to becoming the tech industry’s next big thing.
Now Reddit wants to be paid for it. The company said on Tuesday that it planned to begin charging companies for access to its application programming interface, or A.P.I., the method through which outside entities can download and process the social network’s vast selection of person-to-person conversations.
“The Reddit corpus of data is really valuable,” Steve Huffman, founder and chief executive of Reddit, said in an interview. “But we don’t need to give all of that value to some of the largest companies in the world for free.”
The move is one of the first significant examples of a social network’s charging for access to the conversations it hosts for the purpose of developing A.I. systems like ChatGPT, OpenAI’s popular program. Those new A.I. systems could one day lead to big businesses, but they aren’t likely to help companies like Reddit very much. In fact, they could be used to create competitors — automated duplicates to Reddit’s conversations.
Reddit is also acting as it prepares for a possible initial public offering on Wall Street this year. The company, which was founded in 2005, makes most of its money through advertising and e-commerce transactions on its platform. Reddit said it was still ironing out the details of what it would charge for A.P.I. access and would announce prices in the coming weeks.
Reddit’s conversation forums have become valuable commodities as large language models, or L.L.M.s, have become an essential part of creating new A.I. technology.
L.L.M.s are essentially sophisticated algorithms developed by companies like Google and OpenAI, which is a close partner of Microsoft. To the algorithms, the Reddit conversations are data, and they are among the vast pool of material being fed into the L.L.M.s. to develop them.
u/SoundLogic2236 [+1] (5 days later)
Party game doesn't rule out predictions. I predict that the people who do well at surgery will, on average, be better at pin the tail on the donkey. Do you predict otherwise?
u/TimeLoopedPowerGamer [+1] Utopian Smut Peddler (6 days later)
Reddit has long been a hot spot for conversation on the internet. About 57 million people visit the site every day to chat about topics as varied as makeup, video games and pointers for power washing driveways.
In recent years, Reddit’s array of chats also have been a free teaching aid for companies like Google, OpenAI and Microsoft. Those companies are using Reddit’s conversations in the development of giant artificial intelligence systems that many in Silicon Valley think are on their way to becoming the tech industry’s next big thing.
Now Reddit wants to be paid for it. The company said on Tuesday that it planned to begin charging companies for access to its application programming interface, or A.P.I., the method through which outside entities can download and process the social network’s vast selection of person-to-person conversations.
“The Reddit corpus of data is really valuable,” Steve Huffman, founder and chief executive of Reddit, said in an interview. “But we don’t need to give all of that value to some of the largest companies in the world for free.”
The move is one of the first significant examples of a social network’s charging for access to the conversations it hosts for the purpose of developing A.I. systems like ChatGPT, OpenAI’s popular program. Those new A.I. systems could one day lead to big businesses, but they aren’t likely to help companies like Reddit very much. In fact, they could be used to create competitors — automated duplicates to Reddit’s conversations.
Reddit is also acting as it prepares for a possible initial public offering on Wall Street this year. The company, which was founded in 2005, makes most of its money through advertising and e-commerce transactions on its platform. Reddit said it was still ironing out the details of what it would charge for A.P.I. access and would announce prices in the coming weeks.
Reddit’s conversation forums have become valuable commodities as large language models, or L.L.M.s, have become an essential part of creating new A.I. technology.
L.L.M.s are essentially sophisticated algorithms developed by companies like Google and OpenAI, which is a close partner of Microsoft. To the algorithms, the Reddit conversations are data, and they are among the vast pool of material being fed into the L.L.M.s. to develop them.
u/Izeinwinter [+1] (3 days later)
I was a temp for years. This resulted in me taking these kind of tests a total of over 30 times. Sometime after take 12 I started just fucking with the tests, partially because I got different results depending what I had for breakfast that morning anyway. Made absolutely no difference as far as my jobs or interactions with my bosses went. They do nothing.
u/cyril957 [+2] (2 days later)
I was using Myers-Briggs as an example because, as I said, it is "well-known". Upon looking up some of its criticisms, they seem pretty convincing, and obviously "well-known" != "epistemologically sound". I did remember learning about it in introductory psych classes in college, but the also teach Freud, so..... Regardless, point taken.
That said, it was used as just that, an example; it's pretty tangential to my question(s). And as your point was raised more eloquently and more charitably by others, your comment was a mostly unconstructive criticism of a minor point in the opening post. Downvoted.
u/TimeLoopedPowerGamer [+1] Utopian Smut Peddler (3 days later)
Reddit has long been a hot spot for conversation on the internet. About 57 million people visit the site every day to chat about topics as varied as makeup, video games and pointers for power washing driveways.
In recent years, Reddit’s array of chats also have been a free teaching aid for companies like Google, OpenAI and Microsoft. Those companies are using Reddit’s conversations in the development of giant artificial intelligence systems that many in Silicon Valley think are on their way to becoming the tech industry’s next big thing.
Now Reddit wants to be paid for it. The company said on Tuesday that it planned to begin charging companies for access to its application programming interface, or A.P.I., the method through which outside entities can download and process the social network’s vast selection of person-to-person conversations.
“The Reddit corpus of data is really valuable,” Steve Huffman, founder and chief executive of Reddit, said in an interview. “But we don’t need to give all of that value to some of the largest companies in the world for free.”
The move is one of the first significant examples of a social network’s charging for access to the conversations it hosts for the purpose of developing A.I. systems like ChatGPT, OpenAI’s popular program. Those new A.I. systems could one day lead to big businesses, but they aren’t likely to help companies like Reddit very much. In fact, they could be used to create competitors — automated duplicates to Reddit’s conversations.
Reddit is also acting as it prepares for a possible initial public offering on Wall Street this year. The company, which was founded in 2005, makes most of its money through advertising and e-commerce transactions on its platform. Reddit said it was still ironing out the details of what it would charge for A.P.I. access and would announce prices in the coming weeks.
Reddit’s conversation forums have become valuable commodities as large language models, or L.L.M.s, have become an essential part of creating new A.I. technology.
L.L.M.s are essentially sophisticated algorithms developed by companies like Google and OpenAI, which is a close partner of Microsoft. To the algorithms, the Reddit conversations are data, and they are among the vast pool of material being fed into the L.L.M.s. to develop them.
u/cyril957 [+1] (4 days later)
I wasn't trying to save face. I'm a little embarrassed, yeah, but my goal in posting was to learn and to start conversation, and I was successful in doing both. So thank you for being a part of that :)
u/LiteralHeadCannon [+2] (13 hours later)
So, I pretty firmly identify as extroverted, but my definitions may be a little wonky. I'm much more productive alone, and I hate being unproductive, so I have to spend some time alone. But the highest level of satisfaction I can obtain comes from social interaction, and I'm well aware of this. Furthermore, when I'm in my element, I tend to be the initiator of social interaction.
u/notmy2ndopinion [+4] Concent of Saunt Edhar (56 minutes later)
It'd be pretty hard to get a RATIONALIST HERO that is not xNTx. (going for the "visionary" definition of the iNtuitive, no offense to any senSers out there.)
It'd also be pretty difficult to get a RATIONAL character that is not xxTx.
Personally I'm ENTP and I'm going to make an extra effort to write character that aren't INTJ or ENTP.
u/Transfuturist [+10] Carthago delenda est. (an hour later)
It'd also be pretty difficult to get a RATIONAL character that is not xxTx.
No. Emotional characters are realistic characters.
u/notmy2ndopinion [+1] Concent of Saunt Edhar (2 days later)
I agree. Emotional characters are realistic.
I'm just saying that if someone's preferential way of interacting with others is by problem solving and rational application of concepts, they are more likely to identify with being a Thinker, rather than a Feeler.
A Rational Feeler may take the emotions of others into great consideration, but if we drift into social manipulation territory, there could be arguments that they are actually a Thinker. (a Socially Savvy Thinker as opposed to an emotionally-blind Thinker, but still.)
u/Transfuturist [+1] Carthago delenda est. (2 days later)
Thinking (T) chooses decisions based on principles and logical consequences. Feeling (F) chooses decisions based on values and consequences for people.
...The Myers-Briggs site doesn't exactly help its claim that MBTI is useful...
u/notmy2ndopinion [+2] Concent of Saunt Edhar (3 days later)
Thanks for helping explore my assumptions on MBTI.
I'll withdraw my statement that "rational" heroes cant be Feelers. You're right about MBTI. Its the equivalent to horoscopes in that it is just hazy enough in its descriptors that you may find something to identify with in your own personality, regardless of the initial label.
u/Transfuturist [+1] Carthago delenda est. (3 days later)
I took a look at the square again (cw: ponis), and while I'm categorized as INTP, I could see myself described very well as INFP, ISTP, ENTP (surprisingly enough), and even INTJ and ESFJ, the polar opposite, save my relatively small but growing pool of conscientiousness. It really is a horoscope.
u/LiteralHeadCannon [+2] (an hour later)
As someone who identifies as very ENFP, I am quite interested in this topic.
u/mhd-hbd [+1] Writes 'The World is Your Oyster, The Universe is Your Namesake' (4 days later)
My own rendition of the eponymous character from Steven Universe, in the fanfic The World is Your Oyster, The Universe is Your Namesake is extroverted, empathic, and favors poking others into using their full potential.