14 KiB
[RT] [FF] Dungeon Keeper Ami: The Flopping Dead
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Author: u/Zephyr1011 Potentially Unfriendly Aspiring Divinity*
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Score: 19
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Created: 2015-12-19T22:24:24
Post:
Comments:
u/OutOfNiceUsernames [+6] fear of last pages (2 hours later)
^^I ^^was ^^kinda ^^expecting ^^for ^^the ^^chapter ^^to ^^be ^^a ^^bit ^^longer.
Since it is not uncommon for all the comments to accidentally get destroyed on the hosting website, I suggest opening a discussion here: If you were to continue Ami’s game from the point when she’d just planted her newest Heart near (inside) the Dwarven territory, how would you proceed, and what tactics\ideas would you use to improve your situation?
I’ll quote some of mine from another post:
- Civilians as workers: Ami limits the basic food, leisure and comfort choices that all civilians have access to and also creates a fake currency for them. From that point on, if a civilian wants to buy extra privileges (e.g. have something more delicious to eat, better living conditions, etc) then they’ll have to do some type of work for Ami’s base. Since it doesn’t matter who uses it to buy such privileges, it can also be used as a currency in a trade between civilians. This will also not trigger a minion link activation because Ami’s not giving a currency (gold, gems, etc) that the game mechanics treats as “real”.
Civilians as a think tank: Ami asks her friends from her original dimension to let her copy some I.Q. tests and then uses the above mentioned currency system to motivate civilians to take them. Those that prove to be clever enough or original enough in their solutions get selected to become a new type of military operators. They are told to design their own Reaper bots (a junction project with warlocks) and eventually start operating them in battle (this plot arc can have some minor similarities to Ender’s game). This insures that the powerful technology on which reaper bots are running will not be wasted on low-intelligence goblins or slow and clumsy Mark I reaper bots.
When Ami relocates her base to the dwarf territory, she considers that it is likely that her new location will be found out pretty quickly, considering how much ruckus they have made when transporting troops and resources through underworld roads. Since being found out will most likely mean an almost immediate attack from dwarves, Ami calls for an advisor meeting as soon as she wakes up and is updated on current situation. Several projects are being initiated during this meeting, and several decisions made at the spot.
She asks Torian to research on how a large group of people (around 8k, to be more precise) can be put into some kind of cryogenic sleep, and whether a petrification spell, similar to the one Monteraine used on her vampires can be used as a solution.
She asks her spies to infiltrate the nearest Dwarven settlement and gather information on their political system, culture, taboos, previous encounters with Keepers, battle strategies against keepers, and potential points of weakness while prioritizing speed over amount of gathered data. She also tells her warlocks to see if there’s an easy solution to reading a dwarf’s memory unnoticed and erasing such a memory without a chance of it being recovered later (e.g. in a Light temple), so that her spies will stay unnoticed and unharmed.
- She also goes Horcrux-hunting at the coordinates where the Temple to the Crowned Death had been destroyed, looking for any artefacts that were magically potent enough to survive such intense temperatures.
u/Empiricist_or_not [+2] Aspiring polite Hegemonizing swarm (22 hours later)
Civilians as workers: Ami limits the basic food, leisure and comfort choices that all civilians have access to and also creates a fake currency for them. From that point on, if a civilian wants to buy extra privileges (e.g. have something more delicious to eat, better living conditions, etc) then they’ll have to do some type of work for Ami’s base. Since it doesn’t matter who uses it to buy such privileges, it can also be used as a currency in a trade between civilians. This will also not trigger a minion link activation because Ami’s not giving a currency (gold, gems, etc) that the game mechanics treats as “real”.
Isn't the keeper bond more insidious than that? The dark seems to have munchkined it to the point that that doing any service for a keeper for any compensation triggers employment.
u/OutOfNiceUsernames [+1] fear of last pages (22 hours later)
It has been shown that for creating a Master-Minion connection the DM has to give a symbolic unit of currency that’s recognised as real (gold, gems) by their Heart (a minted coin usually). There have been no indications so far that any kind of fake currency designed for a virtual economy would trigger such connection.
The author could make this approach useless of course by his word of god (like how he made “torturing zombies” possible without Ami even doubting for a second whether it will work), but logically if Hearts were rigged to react to any exchange between a DM and a captive, all her civilians would’ve already been converted into her minions, since she’s been providing them with both services (housing) and products (food, clothing) for quite some time by now (and the fake currency will basically be representing the same goods and services).
u/Empiricist_or_not [+3] Aspiring polite Hegemonizing swarm (4 days later)
Okay, apologies for the delay, I still can't find the primary source, but [Spoilers not sure if in war against death or the avatar island arc](#s "Camilla makes a deal with Mercury where she will heal or give aid for Mercury leaving alone prisoners she was going to leave alone, this is referenced in the TV tropes article under the "Deal with the Devil" trope, and implies social contracts, we don't know if implicit or explicit, not just actual payment of socially accepted tender make a bond") . . . Note this should be somewhat penalized as it might be a secondary author until I or somebody finds the primary source (Help Me! Please!), but TVTropes does tend to be maintained by fanatics.
u/linkhyrule5 [+2] (3 days later)
I'd be worried about 1). It's not just a matter of the dungeon heart - remember that this world works on Sailor Moon-style conceptual magic, emotions and authorities and whatnot are irreducible here.
In particular, note that Ami is an Empress, with that title being granted by the Dark Gods themselves. As such, she has the right to issue currency. I'd be very surprised if, say, giving someone the a bank note or statement of debt from the Shining Concord Empire didn't trigger a minion bond.
has the problem of sabotage - Keepers are hated, to a degree that there will be a lot of medium-intelligence people willing to give up their lives for a chance to ruin a Keeper's life. Or even make it moderately more annoying.
a) This is purely a magic solution, and this world doesn't fulfill the criteria of Sanderson's Laws. It'd feel like a Deus Ex Machina narratively if it was pulled off. b) What spies? Remember that this world has had centuries to perfect anti-Keeper measures, and that the vast majority of Ami's minions are averse to holy light. She's better off doing the tricks she is doing - possessing rats to use as remote cameras - than trying to get someone to go undercover. Unless you're considering turning dwarves, which ... see above about hatred of Keepers - she would be very, very lucky to get even a single defector without torture. c) This one is valid, though she's been a bit busy.
u/OutOfNiceUsernames [+1] fear of last pages (3 days later)
Regarding currency bonding issue:
- The title of Empress was granted by the Light, not Dark. 2)
I'd be very surprised if, say, giving someone the a bank note or statement of debt from the Shining Concord Empire didn't trigger a minion bond.
You can’t have it both ways. Either Ami’s [magic→physical crystals→more magic] conversion works because the logic of Dungeon Keeper’s game recognises ordinary crystals as power-relevant, or it recognises as such the supernatural currency units (currency empowered by her title, for instance) and not ordinary crystals. Giving Amy the power to use both worlds to power her magic would feel even more broken that what you’re trying to rise as an argument.
As I’ve said, everything that the new fake currency represents is already being provided to the civilians. Imagine, for instance, that instead of the fake banknotes some of Ami’s minions just kept notes on who needs to be given the extra privileges and who — not. Should that be triggering a bond as well? Civilians have been receiving food and shelter both for free and for work-in-exchange (the cook), so this isn’t even an issue to be arguing about.
Even if this option ended up not working, it would still be worth trying out, since the price of failure would be a single civilian who has to force himself to sever the bond (as the orcs have done previously).
has the problem of sabotage - Keepers are hated
Many of the newly-acquired civilians are not only children, but also orphans. Some of them have even been shown to start voicing their unsure positive opinions about Ami. Training them into a prestigious fighting unit, one that isn’t afraid of this particular keeper (and is even loyal to her because she’s shown nothing but kindness to them), should not be a problem. Any further problems of sabotage are easily dealt with via prophylactic mind-reading of those civilians who agreed to take a position of power.
What spies?
She has at least two demons from Earth that have shown themselves to be highly qualified for spying.
- a)
Are you referring to the petrification spell? All the premises are already there for this to work — it was mentioned that creatures can be petrified and then brought back to normal again. If it feels too powerful, you’ll have to put restrictions on it to cripple its use as the game’s DM. But from the in-universe perspective that argument is very weak.
This one is valid, though she's been a bit busy.
Time’s not that much of an issue because she can teleport and BodySurf at the speed of light. The only time she’d be needing would be for physically scanning the area through some deep-sea dweller’s eyes.
u/linkhyrule5 [+1] (3 days later)
Sure I can. People sell gems for gold, people story gems as gold, gems are perceived as a currency in parts of the world, especially in a time predating paper money. The Keeper bond is conceptual: if you trade a service for a good, you're a minion, and the limits there are English. (For that matter, remember that Camilla was made a minion by trading for a magic carpet, which certainly isn't currency. I suppose you can argue that the carpet has intrinsic value - but gold has no intrinsic value beyond looking shiny, though in some universes it's particularly amenable to enchantments.)
I would expect those to start producing minion bonds irregularly as they begin to be traded.
Minion bonds can't be severed that easily, or Camille would've severed hers already. In fact they can't be severed at all without extremely good immediate reasons.
Aaaand now you're getting into practices that not only take a long time (unless you want to actively use child soldiers), but will also totally destroy all of her "good Keeper" cred with the Light.
Only in the sense that Ami already does, through the rats. They can't replace a dwarf or something. And they still have the problem of being weak to light magic, without Ami's ability to leave quickly and defend herself.
... what, mass petrification? Shyeah I'd put limits on that, the world wouldn't look the way it did if that was possible. Ami brings modern technology and creativity, but not actual magical knowledge* - I would not expect her to be out-thinking thousands of years of wizards on a spell as obvious as "do this, but to more people."
Still time she has to spend thinking about it.
u/linkhyrule5 [+2] (3 days later)
I'd be worried about 1). It's not just a matter of the dungeon heart - remember that this world works on Sailor Moon-style conceptual magic, emotions and authorities and whatnot are irreducible here.
In particular, note that Ami is an Empress, with that title being granted by the Dark Gods themselves. As such, she has the right to issue currency. I'd be very surprised if, say, giving someone the a bank note or statement of debt from the Shining Concord Empire didn't trigger a minion bond.
has the problem of sabotage - Keepers are hated, to a degree that there will be a lot of medium-intelligence people willing to give up their lives for a chance to ruin a Keeper's life. Or even make it moderately more annoying.
a) This is purely a magic solution, and this world doesn't fulfill the criteria of Sanderson's Laws. It'd feel like a Deus Ex Machina narratively if it was pulled off. b) What spies? Remember that this world has had centuries to perfect anti-Keeper measures, and that the vast majority of Ami's minions are averse to holy light. She's better off doing the tricks she is doing - possessing rats to use as remote cameras - than trying to get someone to go undercover. Unless you're considering turning dwarves, which ... see above about hatred of Keepers - she would be very, very lucky to get even a single defector without torture. c) This one is valid, though she's been a bit busy.