24 KiB
The Truth of the Sith [RT] [DC] [FF]
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Author: u/EliezerYudkowsky Godric Gryffindor*
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URL: http://www.facebook.com/yudkowsky/posts/10153845777444228
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Score: 159
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Created: 2015-12-28T04:03:09
Post:
Comments:
u/alexanderwales [+50] Time flies like an arrow (19 minutes later)
I really enjoyed this, especially the ambiguity of how much Palpatine is lying (or manipulating the truth).
u/traverseda [+22] With dread but cautious optimism (5 hours later)
Does anyone have the source of the "No light side" thing? I've pretty sure it was posted here somewhere.
EDIT: Found it. https://www.reddit.com/r/rational/comments/29ik06/q_rational_fanfiction_most_wanted/cilf809
u/KOTORman [+11] Galactic Empire (20 hours later)
There have been some popular Reddit posts on it, but the concept itself comes from the now somewhat defunct Expanded Universe. It's a point of view espoused by several of the more rational and philosophical EU Jedi/Sith.
u/EliezerYudkowsky [+5] Godric Gryffindor (a day later)
I think you're conflating the idea of a single-sided Force with a single-Dark-sided Force a la the Warp, which seem importantly different to me.
u/KOTORman [+11] Galactic Empire (a day later)
Both views have been found in the EU, across the entire ideological spectrum from that there is only one Force - the light - to there is only a dark side a la the Warp. One Sith Lord went as far to say as that the Force was some sort of insidious god, and attempted to destroy it. The fact that the player character was heroically obliged to stop her was one of the most difficult times I had convincing myself I wasn't actually being forced by the game to play the villain! The Force being an artificial creation of the EU's most powerful Precursor race has been an idea as well.
Essentially, with a world as big as the Expanded Universe, pretty much every idea about the Force - including its lack of existence - has been thrown around at some point. ;)
u/reasonablefideist [+11] (16 hours later)
Aren't dark and light matter a naturally occurring binary(actual question, not a physicist)? I'm trying to think of more but I suppose most are actually just the presence and absence of a single thing. Actually, if you want to go full blown reductionist I suppose you'd just say dark and light matter are just different things altogether, which is the type of argument a reductionist would use for any such claim. But that seems to me more a product of assumption and method than evidence of the universe working that way. If I assume apriori that everything can be reduced to zero's, one's and infinities(which reductionism seems to do) then I shouldn't be surprised if that's what I find because any two's I "find" I'll just reduce to separate categories.
/ramblings
u/Frommerman [+5] (3 days later)
Dark matter is more of a fudge factor accounting for a phenomenon which isn't properly explained by what we can see. We have no idea what it actually is.
u/ToaKraka [+20] https://i.imgur.com/OQGHleQ.png (6 minutes later)
u/gridpoint [+9] (11 hours later)
Nice. Except for the Precursors trope with the ancient alien race of dark side beings. Don't know why it bothers me but I see it often (eg: Atlantis in HPMOR).
u/KOTORman [+14] Galactic Empire (21 hours later)
It's something existing in both the Star Wars canon and the Expanded Universe though. The Sith were originally an ancient race of primarily crimson or black-skinned aliens with yellow eyes who ruled the galaxy, with a fan theory being that all dark side users demonstrate these traits as a result, and there are even more ancient transsapient AI gods and so on.
u/Wiron [+7] (18 hours later)
Usually it's lazy writing. Uninspired explanation of everything.
"Why things are the way they are?"
"Because
AuthorGodAncinet Aliens made it that way"
u/Tangokat [+8] (7 hours later)
Can anyone recommend good fanfics that deal with the Sith?
u/KOTORman [+7] Galactic Empire (20 hours later)
If you're into the EU, I'd recommend Legacy of the Sith by YodaKenobi. The Sith Lord in that series is so similar to Yudkowsky's Palpatine here it's eerie. One of my favourite villains of all time alongside HPMORQuirrell! Very Sith-heavy is KOTOR: The Power of Choice, which also does a good job of detailing the plot of the famous Knights of the Old Republic if you haven't played it, albeit with a dark side twist...
Movies-only, I'd highly recommend The Shadow of Vader by Darth Vastor, in which Obi-Wan becomes Vader, although the degree to which it's Sith-specific is questionable, as well as Fall of the Sith, in which Mace becomes a Sith Lord, and its non-AU 'prequel' Edge of the Darkness which details how come Yoda seemed to know so much about the believed-extinct Sith and their Rule of Two, both by Souderwan.
u/whywhisperwhy [+2] (21 hours later)
For the Legacy of the Sith fanfic, it sounds like it requires some background-
"This is only the latest series in YodaKenobi's alternate universe (referred to as "the Yobiverse" by some). His original trilogy of Revolution, The Eighth Cortex, and The Living Force form an alternate ending to the New Jedi Order series, one wherein Anakin Solo survives to become the hero of the Yuuzhan Vong War. Then there is a "bridge fic," Empire of the Hand that leads into the present series."
Do you think it's readable without all the precursors / should someone pick it up from the beginning?
u/KOTORman [+2] Galactic Empire (22 hours later)
As long as you're familiar with the EU (preferably New Jedi Order in particular), there's no need to read his earlier works. Starting with the first book of Legacy of the Sith, The Age of Heroes, is what I did and it was definitely readable (and meant to be so). :)
u/pleasedothenerdful [+1] (8 days later)
Does reading the Wookiepedia entries related to the New Jedi Order qualify as "familiar?"
u/KOTORman [+1] Galactic Empire (20 days later)
Most definitely!
u/None [+7] (an hour later)
Very nice. Fits in almost seamlessly with existing Star Wars lore and the twist it offers is perfectly compelling.
I couldn't follow one point:
The Jedi could sustain their numbers using uterine replicators... if any of the important people thought that having more Jedi was a good thing. Already the number of Jedi is a hundredth part of what it was a millennium earlier. In time, it is hoped by all those who are in the know, the Galaxy will have solved the... problem, of the Force.
I don't see (or it isn't explained) why there are fewer Jedi now and how the problem of the Force will be solved. Generally speaking, if the rules of the universe make x% of sentients force users, and if y% of those users "go bad" if trained in Jedi techniques, while z% go bad if left untrained, then x*min(y,z) percent of the sentients will always be bad force users.
u/Pluvialis [+31] Second Age Sauron (an hour later)
The galaxy doesn't make x% of sentients force users in this fic, it's passed on genetically. Hence why the Jedi should ostensibly be using uterine replicators (since passion is the path to the Dark Side), but aren't because they are actually trying to eradicate the Force.
u/None [+4] (an hour later)
I see. If this is the case, though, then it seems like the problem of the force should be solved in a single generation (kidnap all the children of force sensitive users, don't let them breed, done). I guess we can avoid this problem by supposing that all the new Jedi come from areas outside the control of the republic.
u/DCarrier [+20] (2 hours later)
Genetics is complicated. A cleft palette is genetic, but you could still have one if your parents didn't. You may only get the Force due to a combination of genes. Maybe you have a gene that prevents the Force, but you don't pass it on to your children. Leia never seemed to be very powerful in the force, but her son was powerful.
u/None [+7] (15 hours later)
Nice explanation!
Thinking about it some more, a potential issue with a plan of genetically eradicating force sensitivity is that it isn't very robust. Suppose you succeed but miss just one person, some random guy hiding on some asteroid. If that one guy has descendants that are force-sensitive they will likely become Sith lords (as there is only the dark side of the force) and there will be no Jedi to oppose them.
In other words, if this goal is only accomplished to 99.999% the plan may end up doing more harm than good.
Edit: actually, in some ways such a scenario is inevitable. Imagine what happens if force-sensitivity is genetic and based on a complicated combination of genes and finally rare enough so that there have been no Jedi for generations. Eventually, though, someone gets the force-sensitive combination of genes, and what will that person do?
Of course, Palpatine is justified in thinking it very unlikely that Anakin will be making such objections.
u/ArisKatsaris [+14] Sidebar Contender (14 hours later)
kidnap all the children of force sensitive users, don't let them breed, done
It's not so easy to locate all "force-sensitive users". You'd push them underground if you forcefully tried to eradicate them. So instead you want to provide an incentive for force-sensitive users to come forth themselves. Thus a prestigious Jedi Order, honored and respected by all, which will also deliberately breed itself out of existence the moment no new Force users can be found (and their task will then have been done).
u/CitrusJ [+6] (an hour later)
Mutations could still cause force-sensitive individuals to appear. Especially in an entire galaxy with the number of living sentient organisms
u/None [+0] (18 hours later)
it seems like the problem of the force should be solved in a single generation (kidnap all the children of force sensitive users, don't let them breed, done).
Gosh, you could even do it with a fleet of Black Ships.
u/alexanderwales [+16] Time flies like an arrow (12 hours later)
One other lore complication is that Dooku was on the losing end of his battle with Yoda and only escaped with his life because he threw a pillar at Anakin and Obi-wan as a distraction before running away. Also, Dooku was a fully trained Jedi Master (by Yoda, no less) before becoming a Sith Lord, so it sort of seems like the Dark Side didn't help him all that much.
This can all be chalked up to Palpatine being manipulative rather than any actual error though. He'd just have to be reasonably confident that Anakin wouldn't call him on it. I suppose that Anakin would be more than ready to believe that Dooku was a superior foe given that Anakin lost an arm in that duel; people like hearing that the guy they lost to had an unfair advantage, because it means that it wasn't a personal failing on their part.
u/DrunkenQuetzalcoatl [+5] (12 hours later)
Speaking of personal failings and complicating lore: What would "bringing balance to the force" mean when there is only the dark side? Is destroying the jedi order balance? That could actually give more sense to the prophecy than in canon.
u/alexanderwales [+17] Time flies like an arrow (13 hours later)
I think the best way to make sense of the Jedi's canonical beliefs about the prophecy is that they saw the Force as being like a spinning top or a see-saw. To their way of thinking, the Light Side was balance and the Dark Side was unbalanced. If we're using the see-saw metaphor, then love pushes down one end and hate pushes down the other, and they feed each other, causing more unbalance as the see-saw goes back and forth. Or if we're using the spinning top metaphor, love/anger/fear cause the Force to start wobbling on its axis, which gets exacerbated really easily and is difficult to recover from.
So to the Jedi Masters, ten thousand Jedi and two Sith basically means that the Force is almost entirely balanced with just a small unbalancing to it, and the prophecy about the chosen one meant elimination of the Sith, bringing the Force back to perfect balance (and thus, the Light Side). Or to use another metaphor, the chosen one is going to remove the last of the impurities in the water. (This is canonical to Legends but non-canon to the current universe, though it's not been contradicted.)
So if the Jedi at the top really believe that everything has been flipped on its head - the natural state of the Force is imbalance, which I guess still works with the spinning top metaphor - then their interpretation doesn't have to change. The Force is naturally imbalanced, the chosen one is going to be bring balance to the Force, that can't be anything but a good thing, right?
u/ArisKatsaris [+5] Sidebar Contender (15 hours later)
Using this hypothesis, "bringing balance to the force" would mean removing the natural unbalance of the Force, i.e. how at its core it was Dark.
With balance it would finally become equally Light and Dark, not a mere fragile covering of Light over a core of Dark.
u/KOTORman [+3] Galactic Empire (21 hours later)
A prophecy that misread, could have been... The entire notion of "balance of the Force" is one that could mean so many things, I think it's a fairly meaningless concept not grounded by anything empirical.
In the SW canon, there's also a family of ancient, deific beings who somehow control and/or personify this abstract balance as anchorites. I suspect the only meaningful definition of balance is to be found in these beings, whose affairs don't have much to do with the movies' events at all, and even less to do with Anakin, who may very well be a Sith creation (by Darth Plagueis) in an attempt to bring into being their own prophesied savior.
u/KOTORman [+4] Galactic Empire (20 hours later)
Nonetheless, Yoda is Jedi Grand Master, and Dooku a mere Sith Apprentice with only ten years of tutelage in the dark side. In both the movies and the EU, it would seem generally the Sith are more powerful, indeed far more powerful in the latter.
u/Brightlinger [+3] (a day later)
Also, even if unchallenged, "Dooku matched Yoda despite fewer years of experience" doesn't particularly weigh against the claim that the dark side is faster but not more powerful.
u/None [+2] (an hour later)
why there are fewer Jedi now
I think that's something this author has just stipulated is true for his story.
u/KOTORman [+2] Galactic Empire (20 hours later)
It's also canonical in the Expanded Universe/Legends.
u/None [+1] (21 hours later)
In which series (was it stated), if you don't mind me asking?
u/KOTORman [+3] Galactic Empire (22 hours later)
Not any one series, but sourcebooks and Wookieepedia would give more details. To summarise:
There were many tens of thousands of Jedi with Jedi Lords ruling the Republic as Chancellors, multiple temples, conclaves and academies, during the close of the Draggulch Period, for instance, and before Nomi Sunrider's reforms following the Great Sith War, love wasn't forbidden, with multiple ancient Jedi families such as the Qel-Dromas. This contrasts to the Jedi Order during the prequels, where power is centralised in the Jedi Temple, no more Jedi generations (outside of the Corellian and Altisian Jedi splinter sects, that is), and 'only' approximately 10,000 Jedi at the start of Order 66.
u/None [+1] (22 hours later)
That was explained in the prequels as a deliberate act during the Ruusan Reformation to reduce Jedi power iirc.
Since the Sith blew themselves up it was the ideal time to do that.
u/KOTORman [+1] Galactic Empire (22 hours later)
Not in the movies (Ruusan Reformation was a later retcon), but yes the relinquishing of political power, disbandment of Jedi Grand Council (of Lords) and centralisation on Coruscant was a response to the Sith threat being deemed over.
The no-attachment policies and end of Jedi dynasties took place long before the Reformation, and as for dwindling numbers of Jedi, no reason is given. It's possible Jedi Order membership simply fluctuated over the millennia, but it certainly would be true to say that Jedi numbers by the time of ROTS were less than they were thousands of years prior.
u/None [+3] (22 hours later)
Ah, I see what you're saying. Fair enough.
u/LiteralHeadCannon [+8] (13 hours later)
This is great. Yudkowsky you've done it again, et cetera.
I've had some ideas for how the prequels could be improved before, and this would definitely be right up there. The world needs more tragedies where the hero isn't a total chump.
My own best idea is much simpler, but IMO massively improves them on a storytelling level: rename Naboo "Alderaan" and rename Padme Amidala "Padme Organa". Seriously, why the fuck didn't George do this? It immediately grants more weight to the most weirdly unweighty moment in the original movie, ties the generations together more, and just makes sense.
u/ArisKatsaris [+13] Sidebar Contender (15 hours later)
I agree that Alderaan would have been a good place to take the place of Naboo as a locale, but a problem would be that Leia was hidden away from Darth Vader, so obviously she can't grow in the same family and with the same name of the woman that birthed her.
My own idea to make the handmaiden-switcheroos more interesting would be that "Queen Amidala" is a constructed persona, all the 'handmaidens' taking turns acting out the central role of Queen Amidala and in reality ruling by majority. Padme would be merely one of the "Queen Amidalas" that exist, not the only one.
I'm guessing that idea could actually be combined with yours: if Padme had retired from the role of "Queen Organa" already by movie 3, Vader would not think that a child born to Queen Organa had anything to do with him (and in reality it would be an old friend of Padme's adopting her old friend's child.)
u/LiteralHeadCannon [+2] (16 hours later)
Are both of the children specifically being hidden from Vader? It's been a while since I've seen 4-6, and longer since I've seen 1-3. I guess that makes sense. The story I'd constructed in my head was that Leia was raised with the Rebels, who presumably don't give Darth Vader visitation rights. Luke and his family (weren't they supposed to be related to Anakin through his mother?) might not even be on Vader's radar until Luke is recruited by Obi-Wan; he has no reason to believe that his wife bore twins.
Your version is very interesting and sensible. :)
u/trifith [+8] Man plans, god laughs. Like the ant and the grasshopper. (16 hours later)
They're hidden, in that Vader believes them to be dead. You don't generally look for dead people. Obi-wan acted as a guardian to Luke on Tatooine, and Leia was just a ward of Bail Organa, of no particular note to Vader.
The remarkable part is that Vader doesn't manage to sense either Obi-wan or his children (both force sensitives of some power) durring the whole "Hunt down every force sensitive in the galaxy and kill them" step of the rise of the Empire.
u/ArisKatsaris [+2] Sidebar Contender (a day later)
Leia was a member of the Imperial Senate, it's her ancestry that was hidden away.
u/KOTORman [+2] Galactic Empire (21 hours later)
But that's essentially how Luke was raised, on Anakin's homeworld, by his extended family. In the EU, this is explained as that Vader would never want to return to anywhere haunted by his past.
I agree Padme shouldn't be an Organa, although having the Organas as another prominent house of Alderaan, with perhaps the characters of Captain Panaka, Captain Typho and Sio Bibble being roled into one - Bail Organa - thus making sense of Leia's line about Bail fighting alongside General Kenobi, and taking over from the Amidalas due to their political structure of democratically electing monarchs, would work.
u/ArisKatsaris [+5] Sidebar Contender (a day later)
But that's essentially how Luke was raised, on Anakin's homeworld, by his extended family.
The novelisation of the original trilogy had Luke's "uncle" be actually Obi-wan Kenobi's brother, not his real uncle -- even though they rejected that rationalisation in the prequels it was more elegant than what we got.
u/None [+4] (10 hours later)
See, now I'm wondering why we should expect a continuum of universes instead of a countable array of them. Also, if quantum physics is going to make sense, doesn't it have to be a measurable continuum of universes?
There is only a single psychic phenomenon that pervades the galaxy. I don't know what the Dark Side of the Force, which is to say, the Force, is.
Easy explanation: the Warp. Star Wars and that other pulp scifi kitchen sink are two galaxies in the same universe. In both of them, invoking the typical psychic energies from the immaterial background-dimension is most likely to corrupt or destroy an unaugmented human mind.
your... reasonable outlook on the morality of life extension.
Yoda is 800-something, and the Jedi are morally opposed to life extension? This maketh not the sense.
u/redrach [+10] (10 hours later)
Yoda isn't human, and he eventually dies, presumably of old age.
u/alexanderwales [+16] Time flies like an arrow (10 hours later)
Whereupon he becomes a Force ghost ...
u/KOTORman [+4] Galactic Empire (21 hours later)
But what's interesting is that, in the EU at least, being a Force ghost is not permanent, nor is the technique to do so a Jedi one, but rather borrowed from ancient mystics (as in canon as well) who certainly don't claim allegiance to the light side. Obi-Wan must be "moving on" to become one with the Force a scant few years after the movies. Now, if we realise "becoming one with the Force" is merely a nice way of dressing up the permanent dissolution of identity, the Jedi remain deathists, and the few who borrowed other Forceful traditions' techniques to temporarily guide the living did so with a sense of sacrifice, citing becoming one with the Force - their ultimate demise - was the will of the Force and so on!
Yet in the Sith, we see attempts at true immortality, mostly selfish, although in the beginning, an attempt to create immortality for all, create life, restore dead worlds and create galactic utopia. The Sith seem to be the transhumanists in Star Wars.
u/KOTORman [+1] Galactic Empire (21 hours later)
There's a lot within the EU to support a Warp-ish interpretation. But even within canon there's 'Force gods' who personify aspects of the Force, which makes me wonder if the Force is an artificial construct by ancient transsapient AI gods or the like.
u/psychothumbs [+3] (a day later)
I like it. I've had roughly the same headcanon about how the Force works for a long time.