scrape_r_rational/data/cache2/4mptnp.md

Mother of Learning Chapter 54: The Gate Is Barred

• Author: u/jalapeno_dude *

• URL: https://www.fictionpress.com/s/2961893/54/Mother-of-Learning

• Score: 156

• Created: 2016-06-05T22:36:31

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u/MarkArrows [+62] (35 minutes later)

Welp. Now we know where Red Robe is. He's genre savvy enough to know when to nope the fuck out. He won the game before the other players even knew they were playing.

GG, no re

u/melmonella [+34] Tremble, o ye mighty, for a new age is upon you (42 minutes later)

To be fair...he is risking a lot. He exited the loop, so now he has no way to influence what is happening inside of it. He has no way to turn it off either-as far as timeloop is concerned, he froze in time at the exit. So now he may very well end up in a situation where he exited the loop, expecting to be the last one remaining...

...and finds out that Zach and Zorian exited it too, and not only that, but they are also WAY more powerful now.

u/MarkArrows [+60] (56 minutes later)

IMO - I'm sure he thought that the time loop would squash itself the moment it detected the controller left it. Everything was pointing at that.

If so, it's gonna be such a nasty "I regret everything." moment when he realizes he fucked up.

u/tyes77 [+6] (2 hours later)

Not so because they have no idea who he is still and they would need for him to reveal himself for that to happen. if he is still smart about it and not cocky, he should still be donning the red robe in case of any enemies.

u/None [+8] (5 hours later)

I think they will all exit the time cube at the same time give or take a few seconds surrounded by guards

u/thrawnca [+6] Carbon-based biped (a day later)

Agree on the timing, but I don't think they'll be surrounded by guards; I think it'll be just like another restart.

u/None [+1] (a day later)

Won't they be in serect government base? Because that's where the time cube is?

u/thrawnca [+1] Carbon-based biped (2 days later)

No, I don't think so; why would they? They're supposed to return to the beginning and experience everything one last time outside the loop. For Zorian, the beginning is being woken up by Kirielle. There's no reason his body in the real world should be teleported to the Gate.

u/None [+1] (2 days later)

Are they? I thought the "black box" was foreshadowing and that they would be at the end of the loop in a version they had no control over because time travel is still technically impossible

u/kaukamieli [+1] (a day later)

How long was the last guy said to have been in the gate? Real time?

u/FuguofAnotherWorld [+3] Roll the Dice on Fate (a day later)

If he's smart about it then he'll never don the red robe again in his life, and use his loop-gained abilities to be a happy, productive member of society who also happens to be a hideously powerful archmage.

Barring RR trying to take over the country or similar high visibility actions he would be mostly indistinguishable from a high powered mage. Or possibly a high powered lich before too long, considering he probably doesn't fancy dying anytime soon.

u/gbear605 [+12] history’s greatest story (48 minutes later)

I mean, everyone other than Zach and Zorian think that only one person can leave, and Zorian only thinks that because Zach convinced him.

u/melmonella [+28] Tremble, o ye mighty, for a new age is upon you (52 minutes later)

Everyone also thought that only one person could loop. Clearly people were wrong.

u/gbear605 [+6] history’s greatest story (an hour later)

Even the matriarch seemed pretty convinced. Also, Red Robe is fairly smart and would have thought about the possibility.

u/melmonella [+7] Tremble, o ye mighty, for a new age is upon you (an hour later)

Also, Red Robe is fairly smart and would have thought about the possibility.

Clearly he did not.

u/MarkArrows [+20] (an hour later)

Yep. After he killed the spiders he probably had a cold shower and then realized he had zero way of knowing if he killed all the travelers or not.

Then he'd realize at some point they'll figure out only one of them can escape and everything will go FUBAR if even one of them leaves before the others.

So I'm pretty sure his escape was literally panic running, maybe even a few hours after he killed the spiders and Zorian off.

u/vallar57 [+24] Unseen University: Faculty of High-Energy Magic (an hour later)

So I'm pretty sure his escape was literally panic running, maybe even a few hours after he killed the spiders and Zorian off.

Nope, he at least tagged Zach for two restarts. One loss and one win XD So he had time to think things through.

u/MarkArrows [+8] (an hour later)

Oh right! Totally forgot about that.

u/melmonella [+5] Tremble, o ye mighty, for a new age is upon you (an hour later)

He had to visit Zach a couple of times first.

u/LordSwedish [+27] Q Continuum (4 hours later)

To be fair, the only reason why more than one person can leave (I assume the story isn't going to end with the time loop running out of power and Zach/Zorian dying) is because "don't implode with the user inside" was given higher priority than "implode when user leaves."

Considering how bugged to hell the entire system has become there was no reason to believe that this would be the case.

u/melmonella [+5] Tremble, o ye mighty, for a new age is upon you (13 hours later)

Considering how bugged to hell the entire system has become there was no reason to believe that this would be the case.

When system is bugged to hell and back rational thing is to not assume anything about how it will react to any given stimulus.

u/FuguofAnotherWorld [+2] Roll the Dice on Fate (a day later)

What was he supposed to do, stay behind and increase his chances of failure on the off-chance that the code is bugged? He thought he was fighting multiple time loopers, at least one who was a better mind mage than he and one who could beat him in single combat half the time. And he thought there were more than two of them. Running is completely sensible under those circumstances. In order to get better odds from staying he needs to beat down and successfully mind-wipe a whole lot of people without them committing suicide or losing even once.

Running has better odds. The fact that random chance conspired to make the 10% chance crop up instead of the 90% chance does not mean that he made the wrong choice with the information he had.

u/melmonella [+1] Tremble, o ye mighty, for a new age is upon you (a day later)

Running is completely sensible under those circumstances.

Why, yes it is, but then why attack Zack a couple of times first?

u/FuguofAnotherWorld [+1] Roll the Dice on Fate (a day later)

Maybe he thought he was stronger than Zach? If he won without Zach committing suicide then he'd know exactly how many enemies he has to face and be able to remove one of them from play (by wiping Zach's memories and thus crippling his magical ability for a long time). He could then make decisions based on knowing how many others there are and who they are.

Alternatively, if Zach was the centrepiece going around re-implanting people's memories into them every loop like what was happening with Spear of Resolve, then removing him would basically remove the other loopers as a threat.

Attacking Zach isn't a terrible move in certain world-states, though it's one hell of a risk in others.

u/elevul [+9] Cyoria Observer (an hour later)

That is, assuming they will meet. If the Gate simply swaps the souls, then Red Robe could be anyone, anywhere in the world, and they'd never find him.

u/melmonella [+14] Tremble, o ye mighty, for a new age is upon you (an hour later)

I think you are severely underestimating how hard it is to properly hide from 3 archmages(zach, zorian, xvim) who really really want to find you.

u/Xtraordinaire [+25] Team Glimglam (an hour later)

If he has the soul marker, it's easy peasy. Zorian has learned that detecting ritual when RR had already exited the Gate, that's why it was detecting only Zorian and Zach. In the real world the ritual will give 3 targets.

u/jkwrites [+23] (an hour later)

Or possibly no targets, depending on the mechanism of how one exits the loop. It may be that the marker is local to the loop and gets stripped when one exits into real world.

u/Keshire [+24] (2 hours later)

I'm of the opinion that the mark is hereditary. Passed from soul to soul in Zach's blood line. That would be the link to all the witch magic breeding talks. And how Zach got unwittingly pulled in.

u/jkwrites [+3] (2 hours later)

That would however mean that RR is of Noveda's bloodline, since it's heavily implied that he had the brand and exited the loop using the standard way out.

u/Keshire [+13] (2 hours later)

Or he was the one that initially triggered the gate as a researcher. Red Robe is still mysterious enough that he can fall in line with many different theories. Plus just because everyone says Zach was the last of his line doesn't make it fact. :)

u/feha92 [+18] (3 hours later)

I think you just raised the "RR is zach's long lost sister and as the real heroine of the story the reason zorian never entertained the feelings of any girls this whole while" flag with that last sentence xD

u/Keshire [+7] (4 hours later)

I don't know. I think it would be a turn off for me if the heroine showed up with a lich and vampire and mind raped my best friend in front of me. :D

u/feha92 [+7] (5 hours later)

Eeeh, its ok, with this flag its just her brother anyway. People in fiction towards its end tend to be perfectly ok with any sorts of prior maltreatment if it is familial for unknown reasons ;) And you shouldn't judge someone based on their association either, much less based on the race of said association (seriously, that lich has never done anything bad to our knowledge now has it!?) :P

Btw, wasn't Zorians best friend that annoying guy who we only saw for a very few chapters rather than Zach? Or am I thinking of another novel now?

u/ansible [+2] The Culture (22 hours later)

Btw, wasn't Zorians best friend that annoying guy who we only saw for a very few chapters rather than Zach?

Yes, you're thinking of Bensik. Really talkative, rumor monger.

u/FuguofAnotherWorld [+2] Roll the Dice on Fate (a day later)

Or that he knew enough soul magic to implant the mark in himself intentionally once he'd fooled Zach.

u/elevul [+2] Cyoria Observer (9 hours later)

That is, assuming Red Robe will not clear off the mark as soon as he's out. If he's skilled enough in Soul Magic to copy Zach's mark, he's probably skilled enough to remove his own.

u/Xtraordinaire [+6] Team Glimglam (16 hours later)

If Zorian and Zach exit the loop they will enter the real world a nanosecond after RR has. If getting rid of the marker takes longer than ten minutes needed for the detection ritual (and it should), then Zorian should be able to detect RR's whereabouts at least once. From there RR's identity could be investigated.

u/tyes77 [+7] (3 hours later)

Well he was smart enough to hide in the loop for so long he doesn't seem like the type to be high profile. He will probably skulk in the shadows and use others to do his bidding. Not to mention the fact he had somehow managed to get the assistance of a lich and take over Zach's timeloop means you severely underestimate the Red Robes resourcefulness.

u/clawclawbite [+6] (6 hours later)

Well, there is looking for important people who vanish the morning of loop start now.

u/Noumero [+5] Self-Appointed Court Statistician (12 hours later)

Except Red Robe's In-Between counterpart may have simply returned to normal, non-time-traveler state.

u/throwawayIWGWPC [+9] (a day later)

That really depends on how the time-loop works. The soul-killed aranea showed us that souls are necessary for life, so everyone in the loop definitely has a soul. So, does the loop recreate the souls at the beginning of the loop and then let the souls drift into the ether afterward? Does the loop grab all the souls from the real world, use them in the loop, wiping them clean each restart so no one maintains memories/abilities?

One definite possibility is that when Red Robe left the loop, his soul left the loop. Now, whenever his body is recreated, he is just a soulless husk.

u/xibfeii [+5] (17 hours later)

And if so it opens up the interesting plot point of RR being someone who actually helps them in-loop in Arc 2 or 3, possibly someone like Xvim (though unlikely to be him because of other reasons)

u/SurfaceExpression [+5] (11 hours later)

There's probably a way to identify him in the time loop anyway.

There was something off about the current chapter. In the real world the sovereign gate was successfully activated. In the parallel world, the researcher was saying that "I had high hopes that the upcoming planetary alignment and the resulting amplification of dimensional magic might be the key to getting it work, but no such luck."

So they think it's impossible to activate the gate, even though it happened in the real world. What changed? One possibility is that RR is missing and was the person who provided the missing pieces in the real world.

Even if it is something else, there is probably a lot of information to be gained here about the start of the time loop.

u/xibfeii [+9] (17 hours later)

As far as i can tell, the gate IS active in-loop, since we just saw Zorian interact with it, and its purpose in loop is to be the bridge back to the main world. The researchers are just incapable of noticing it.

Also we don't know for sure that the researchers were part of the group that activated the gate in the main timeline.

u/thrawnca [+2] Carbon-based biped (a day later)

The researchers are not the Controller, and probably not even soul mages, so the in-loop Gate would not respond to them.

u/abcd_z [+6] (7 hours later)

as far as timeloop is concerned, he froze in time at the exit.

*exhales in relief*

Thank you for reminding me about the time dilation effect. I was sure that the two protagonists would eventually escape into a world several years or even decades later than the time loop they'd been experiencing.

u/thrawnca [+2] Carbon-based biped (a day later)

I think RR's motivation to leave the loop was twofold: one, he was concerned about mind/soul magic endangering him, and two, he figured that with other time-travellers running around making changes, his efforts to fine-tune the invasion were mostly pointless. He quit while he was ahead and thought that in doing so, he would erase the others.

u/literal-hitler [+59] (29 minutes later)

These items are all lost, likely scattered across Miasina. You'd have to conduct your search on a whole other continent.

I was wondering how exactly he would be forced to work with Daimen.

Zach, being an idiot, actually asked them about this. Zorian was about to wipe their memories and shout at him, but it turned out they saw nothing wrong with his question.

Awful security.

I love stories where the protagonist critiques their enemies like this.

u/melmonella [+27] Tremble, o ye mighty, for a new age is upon you (43 minutes later)

I was wondering how exactly he would be forced to work with Daimen.

O that's good

u/melmonella [+65] Tremble, o ye mighty, for a new age is upon you (10 minutes later)

"The gate is barred," the Guardian confirmed.

Well, fuck.

I fully agree with Zorian's assessment.

u/Keshire [+12] (2 hours later)

I imagine the Guardian is voiced by John Cleese. Just for the extra bit of smugness.

u/booljayj [+1] (23 hours later)

The gate is no more. It has ceased to be. It's expired on gone to meet it's maker. This is a late gate. It's a stiff: bereft of life, it rests in peace. If you hadn't split that soul it would be pushing up daisies. It's run down the curtain and joined the choir invisible. This is an ex-gate.

u/gbear605 [+29] history’s greatest story (16 minutes later)

The time travel spell was powered by love, of all things – what kind of magic was that?

Tell that to JK

u/melmonella [+29] Tremble, o ye mighty, for a new age is upon you (28 minutes later)

Okay, seriously. This sounds like foreshadowing, or am I being overly paranoid from all the shit like that Nobody103 pulled before?

u/literal-hitler [+35] (an hour later)

I've been calling it Chekhov's PTSD.

I mean seriously, why the hell is the girl you happened to help get her bicycle one of the ingredients to complete the solstice ritual?!

u/daydev [+11] (9 hours later)

See, what you're consistently forgetting (or intentionally ignoring for lulz) with your obsession with that girl and her bicycle is that the episode was brought up a second time several chapters later. That is what made it likely to be a Chekhov's Gun. I'm sure if we scoured the story for irrelevant episodes, we'd find scores that are not brought up again, and haven't "discharged" (yet) as Checkov's Guns, and probably won't.

Also I think what you call "Chekhov's PTSD" (presumably, seeing Chechov's Guns in everything) is called Epileptic Trees in TvTropes terminology.

u/melmonella [+9] Tremble, o ye mighty, for a new age is upon you (10 hours later)

we'd find scores that are not brought up again, and haven't "discharged" (yet) as Checkov's Guns, and probably won't.

Thing about prophetic dreams featuring floating pyramids and talking ravens was only brought up once.

u/daydev [+3] (10 hours later)

You can say that technically it's "brought up" again when elements from that dream start appearing one by one. Also a dream has a higher prior of being a foreshadowing than a random "slice of life" episode.

u/literal-hitler [+1] (15 hours later)

I could not find a page resembling Epileptic Trees anywhere when I was looking for it, but I knew if there was a trope it probably came from Lost.

Also, I thought the fact of him helping her out or not was the gun discharging. Something like testing whether or not he's willing to do small favors for people when he knows it doesn't matter, would be a good enough reason to bring her up again.

u/t3tsubo [+1] (16 hours later)

Chekov's Intertextuality

u/Kodix [+7] (an hour later)

No, your paranoia is entirely reasonable here.

I think it's more likely to be a reference, though.

u/Xtraordinaire [+11] Team Glimglam (an hour later)

Heavy Breathing.

u/Riddle-Tom_Riddle [+8] (4 hours later)

Breathing intensifies

u/literal-hitler [+8] (an hour later)

Technically the love only enabled the sacrifice which powered the protective magic. And we all know how powerful human sacrifice is.

u/TimTravel [+2] (19 hours later)

Is that canon?

u/valeskas [+29] (52 minutes later)

I wonder, is primordial a complete red herring, or he is still useful, like his prison is unique and accessible from both simulated and host worlds, or something.

u/None [+30] (59 minutes later)

[deleted]

u/melmonella [+28] Tremble, o ye mighty, for a new age is upon you (an hour later)

That's an interesting theory. Also dangerous as fuck

u/Frommerman [+13] (an hour later)

I mean, they have a bunch of tries to do it. It doesn't look like this primordial can do mind or soul magic, which are the only realistic threats to the time travelers. If this method works, they could just keep trying over and over again.

Of course, it miiiiiiggght come with the slight downside of releasing a primordial into the real world. That would be a problem.

u/-Fender- [+19] (an hour later)

If they can get the alternate dimension to not immediately destroy itself as soon as the rift to the Primordial's dimension is open, then they might be able to enter the Primordial's dimension after it leaves, trapping themselves there and the Primordial in the alternate one, which will self-destruct at the end of the month anyways (potentially permanently killing the Primordial), and the two of them will get summoned at the end of the month by the invaders in the real world. Although that would still mean that most of the people they know will die in the real world in the invasion, if Red Robes participates. Added to that is the fact that the invaders would actually be able to summon a lot of nasty creatures like they originally intended, and which is impossible for them to do during the time loop.

u/cretan_bull [+20] (3 hours later)

That's a terrible plan. Don't get me wrong: it's a creative solution and mechanically might be viable, but if plan A is "dimension hop through a primordial's pocket dimension into the late stages of an invasion which is supported by a time traveller" it might be time for a new plan.

The idea that the primordial could be permanently destroyed by trapping it in the Sovereign Gate's pocket dimension is interesting. That might be viable even if the primordial's dimension isn't used as the exit point. Even with both Zorian and Zach acting together it may still be difficult, perhaps verging on impossible, to prevent the primordial summoning in the real world with Red Robe acting in opposition. In that case it would be quite valuable to be able to render the primordial unable to be released even if the ritual is completed.

I wonder, too, why exactly it appears the pocket dimension resets when the primordial summoning completes. One explanation is that the Sovereign Gate's original activation was somehow tied to that event, that it was activated specifically to stop the summoning and if the summoning occurs in simulation, that loop is of no further value and is terminated. Alternatively, the primordial may trigger some sort of failsafe in the gate and it will always reset rather than allowing the primordial to enter. Such a failsafe could be due to either the primordial threatening the stability of the Gate's pocket dimension or for the risk posed to the Gate's controller by the primordial. If this is the case then such a safety mechanism would have to be disabled before your plan in any form could be implemented.

There is another factor to consider: if the gate was activated in the real world in response to the primordial summoning (perhaps by Zach), then Zach and Zorian exiting the gate through the normal mechanism would put them in a destroyed Cyoria with a primordial on the loose a mere instant after the Gate's activation relative to the real world's timestream. It may be that the primordial is no longer in its pocket dimension and can't be summoned into the Gate's dimension even if the time loop did not reset.

u/SurfaceExpression [+16] (11 hours later)

There are other explanations for why the time loop shut down when the primordial was summoned. At that time there was another point of contact between the (accelerated) pocket dimension and some outside world. Maybe this interfered with the time dilation? It's mentioned repeatedly that in order to achieve high time dilation you have to isolate a part of space from the outside world.

What if each month is allocated a slice of real time, and with this additional point of contact time accelerated to the point that the time slice ended within seconds instead of weeks?

u/-Fender- [+6] (4 hours later)

I find it more likely that the Gate was activated at the beginning of the month. That way, it was a copy of the world exactly as it was upon activation. Also, Zorian talked about how this time loop is essentially an extremely accelerated pocket dimension, in which fraction of seconds will have passed in the real world while decades and centuries could have passed in the dimension. This would make no sense if the Gate was activated at the end of the month. (Although I will admit that this explanation was mostly informed speculation on Zorian's part.)

u/cretan_bull [+6] (5 hours later)

On the basis of observations from within the loop, such as its timing, I agree that it is most likely the Gate was activated at the time the loop begins: the Gate takes a snapshot of the material plane upon its activation and uses that as a template for each reset.

However, in this scenario the Gate was activated before the invasion was visibly underway or the imminent primordial summoning known, so it apparently merely a coincidence that the activation of the gate is timed to effectively counter theses events.

The alternative is that there is a causal link between the invasion and primordial summoning and the activation of the Gate, that the Gate was activated specifically to counter these events. This seems less plausible on the basis of most of the evidence, but the likeliness of a causal linik is evidence all of its own.

Regardless of which scenario is correct, I think Zorian's speculation that the Gate would appear to be activated only for an instant is likely correct.

u/thrawnca [+9] Carbon-based biped (21 hours later)

I think you're onto something when you say that they got lucky with the Gate timing - although it wasn't coincidence, either, because the same planetary alignment powers the two phenomena.

This sheds more light on the legend about living '11 lifetimes'. Ordinarily, I think you're supposed to get more than a month in the simulation. But just like there's a failsafe to restart it if the Controller gets killed, I'd say that it auto-restarts if anything tries to connect the pocket dimension to another one. So the Primordial summoning trips the reset switch.

Maybe, if they can prevent the summoning (since Red Robe is now absent!), then they will have a much longer restart, with enough time to travel overseas and hunt down the Key?

u/throwawayIWGWPC [+6] (a day later)

Maybe, if they can prevent the summoning (since Red Robe is now absent!), then they will have a much longer restart, with enough time to travel overseas and hunt down the Key?

Great idea.

u/thrawnca [+2] Carbon-based biped (a day later)

And then they both escape from the loop and have an epic confrontation, with RR trying to run a fully-optimised invasion, while Zach and Zorian recruit everyone they can find (the Aranea, Taiven, Kael, maybe even Silverlake) and go all-out to mess things up. And beat the lich. Gotta hate the lich.

u/thrawnca [+1] Carbon-based biped (14 days later)

Further evidence that stopping the summoning will extend the restart:

In chapter 6, where Zorian is just becoming accustomed to the restarts, he's not making any big ripples and Zach is out of the picture (presumably unconscious), and Zorian repeatedly confirms that the restart ends at "2 past midnight" (probably 0:02am, although theoretically it could mean 2:00am). Yet in chapter 40, when Red Robe has abandoned the invaders and Zorian is helping to defend against them, it lasts until 2:39am.

So, the reset time is not a fixed point. And from chapter 52, we know that summoning the primordial triggers a reset, and that with no help from Red Robe, no demon support, plans thrown out of whack, not at the peak of the planar alignment, and the city being somewhat prepared, the invaders were still powerful enough to complete the summoning. So we can presume that, if Zach and Zorian don't interfere, then the summoning will succeed every time, which would explain why the reset is so consistent.

u/thrawnca [+1] Carbon-based biped (16 days later)

much longer

Hmm. Someone pointed out that the Ghost Serpent referred to exiting the loop as living through "this month one last time". Which suggests that restarts never last for years.

Maybe it's supposed to last until the planetary alignment fades, which is a month after the peak?

u/Calavente [+5] (17 hours later)

My view on that is that both actions needed the same energy source... so it is not strange to have them appear around the same time even if no causality is present:

both seems to need the planet alignement.

u/None [+3] (5 hours later)

Maybe it was half activated a month before, the planets and primordial fed it the mana to start

u/throwawayIWGWPC [+3] (a day later)

The causal link would be the planar alignment. Major acts of dimensional magic—summoning a primordial, using the Gate—are most likely to occur during this period.

The only issue with this concept is that I would expect the Gate to be activated at the end of the month rather than at the beginning because presumably, it's the end of the month when the planar alignment occurs. However, it may be that the entire period surrounding the planar alignment allows these kinds of dimensional feats, rather than only the last night of the month.

u/Frommerman [+4] (an hour later)

That's what I'm thinking.

u/melmonella [+4] Tremble, o ye mighty, for a new age is upon you (an hour later)

It doesn't look like this primordial can do mind or soul magic

...I don't think that's a valid mind/soul sequrity argument.

u/Frommerman [+4] (an hour later)

That's possibly valid. However, the fact that Zorian simply restarted when he witnessed the pocket reality opening and that there's no evidence of soul damage occurring at that time indicates to me that this is a potentially safe direction of study.

Well, inasmuch as repeatedly releasing a Dark God of Biomantic Horror into your realm is safe.

u/Nepene [+1] (3 days later)

Or the trigger is designed to reset him when he sees the primordial because of the high risk of soul/ mind damage. I was doing of MoL a while back and in it the primordial had the ability to release spiders that could infect any person they touched with a malaise that aligned all their goals with the primordial's by altering their soul. The author could certainly do the same.

u/elevul [+12] Cyoria Observer (an hour later)

Also, two different Zorians and two different Zachs. In the same world. With basically the same souls.

That would be interesting to explain...

u/melmonella [+10] Tremble, o ye mighty, for a new age is upon you (an hour later)

Just kill the old ones.

u/Xtraordinaire [+24] Team Glimglam (an hour later)

That's a terrible waste of a body double that is perfect to fake attendance of tedious family meetings.

u/melmonella [+10] Tremble, o ye mighty, for a new age is upon you (an hour later)

Fair enough. Mindrape them then.

u/elevul [+4] Cyoria Observer (9 hours later)

I wonder if they can actually share memories, though. The author basically said "hell no" but that's mostly because it would break the story. Might be acceptable at the end, with the excuse of "well, they're the same person, memory transfer is doable".

u/throwawayIWGWPC [+2] (a day later)

That's assuming the loop recreates their souls every restart. It's entirely possible that the time loop simply shunts everyone's souls from the original reality into the time loop, then shunts them back into their bodies.

If the loop does create entirely new souls each restart, then what happens to the souls at the end of every restart . . . ? Supposedly, the souls are not destroyed, but who knows? Maybe the souls are just released into the ether except for the souls of Zorian and Zach.

u/SpeculativeFiction [+8] (57 minutes later)

Regardless of what happens, the primordial will have to be dealt with after they leave the loop.

u/thrawnca [+1] Carbon-based biped (4 days later)

Uh...if the primordial actually gets out, the whole continent is in dire trouble. Even killing those things doesn't make everything better, they just spawn smaller ones. I'm pretty sure the summoning has to be prevented. Even though, in the real world, the cultists will be able to summon demon hordes as per their original plan.

u/SpeculativeFiction [+1] (11 days later)

Keeping it locked up is still dealing with it. The original commenter was wondering if it was a red herring, but my point was that it's obviously plot relevant no matter what occurs.

My guess is that all of the mana wells hold primordials. Either the primordials generate the excess mana coming out of them, or the naturally occurring wells (from the dragon below?) are needed to power the dimensional prison containing them. As the early Sarokian Highlands ward question told us, ambient mana is needed for more extensive wards. I can only imagine what a dimensional prison costs in terms of mana--I suppose it's possible that their own mana fuels it, or the gods themselves supply it.

Either mana origin would explain why you can't just absorb ambient mana directly--it basically comes from demons either way, and will corrupt you if you don't carefully purify it first.

It's possible Zorian will prevent the primordial from being released, but with the reveal of the massive mana battery/weapon as Iasku Manor, and all the focus Zorian has been putting into dimensional magic, he might figure out a way to re-imprison it.

Even though, in the real world, the cultists will be able to summon demon hordes as per their original plan.

Zorian (or allied priests) will probably be able to summon Celestials to counter them. The gods may be gone, but their servants aren't.

u/Fredlage [+27] (28 minutes later)

So, my guess is the third arc will consist of them going after the so called "treasures" which probably act as an overriding key to modify the time loop's parameters and hopefully allow them to leave.

u/melmonella [+65] Tremble, o ye mighty, for a new age is upon you (an hour later)

Do you realise what the key is, by the way?

the Key consists of the five imperial treasures of the first Ikosian emperor. The ring, the crown, the staff, the orb and the dagger.

Five treasures, five equally important parts of the key. It is quite obvious they aren't in order-it would be unlikely if they were.

Dagger. Likely a ceremonial blade-a mage has little need for weapons. A thing of beauty. Perhaps a magical implement. Basically, Athame

Crown. Either a literal crown, or just something that goes on your head. Likely something delicate, with masterful craftsmanship, so it might be better to call it a Diadem.

Staff. Likely the first thing one thinks of when they hear "wizard"(that or the hat). A masterful item, crafted by the best spell formula craftsmen you can think of. A symbol of Magic.

Orb. A globus-cruciger, an item that is useless in it's own right, but serves as a symbol of royalty, an Insignia of sorts.

Ring. Too small to be of any actual value-magical powerhouse is the Staff. No, ring is not an item of magical power, it is instead a symbol of political influence, of Nobility.

Dagger-Crown-Staff-Orb-Ring

Athame-Diadem-Magic-Insignia-Nobility

A-D-M-I-N

u/Xtraordinaire [+39] Team Glimglam (an hour later)

Give me conclusion that this were lizard people all along and I'm sold.

u/melmonella [+20] Tremble, o ye mighty, for a new age is upon you (an hour later)

A lizard is associated with all those objects and can be turned into each of them with careful folding.

u/vallar57 [+10] Unseen University: Faculty of High-Energy Magic (an hour later)

Considering that lizard people actually exist in MoL, you may be onto something)

u/None [+21] (an hour later)

[deleted]

u/melmonella [+15] Tremble, o ye mighty, for a new age is upon you (an hour later)

What is Unsong and why should I read it and why do you want me to read it?

u/Jello_Raptor [+28] The Last Tool User (2 hours later)

Unsong is another serial ratfic that runs on exactly that brand of insane troll logic. It's catchphrase/arc words/major theme is "This Is Not A Coincidence Because Nothing Is Ever A Coincidence".

It's very good, especially if you like the Kabbalah-Punk aesthetic (as analogized with steampunk). Well researched, wonderful world building, and it somehow manages to be both a Douglas Adams or Terry Pratchett style parody while also being a rational fic.

My only major qualms with it are that the main characters are the more impulsive form of genius, as opposed to the chessmaster type characters who remember to look before they leap. They're good at finding their way out of tight spots in ways that get them into tighter spots. Also bad at realizing they might want to pause for a bit and really think their plans through.

u/Iconochasm [+23] (2 hours later)

UNSONG is basically just Scott Alexander vomiting that kind of cleverness all over the place to the tune of Hebrew mythology. If you enjoyed writing that up, you will probably love UNSONG.

u/None [+17] (6 hours later)

Except Scott would then show how ADMIN is also an anagram of a Name of God mentioned in an obscure Blake poem that describes another situation complementary to this one. And it seems obvious once you're done reading.

u/AHaskins [+8] (2 hours later)

He's right, dude. Just go find it. It's a rational-style religion story, and is absolutely chock full of stuff like what you just did.

You'd love it.

u/Tetrikitty [+1] (10 days later)

And after assembling all five, he will find that the true key was within him all along.

u/gbear605 [+3] history’s greatest story (35 minutes later)

Agreed. It'll also bring in Daimen.

u/HPMOR_fan [+1] (a day later)

It does appear that way. Not where I expected the story to go at all. I thought they would focus on perfecting the month for the real world. I guess that will come later.

If they can really find the key to the gate, they may be able to take others back with them. These people would only have one month of memories but they would know about the invasion and whatever else. Imagine if they just let everyone keep their memories. That would be total chaos.

u/loonyphoenix [+25] (39 minutes later)

This chapter. Was. Glorious!

Really reasserts why this story belongs here.

u/GaBeRockKing [+24] Horizon Breach: http://archiveofourown.org/works/6785857 (an hour later)

Things I expected:

not this.

u/None [+26] (9 hours later)

[deleted]

u/thrawnca [+6] Carbon-based biped (21 hours later)

RR wasn't that awesome. Contrast what Zach did to subdue the aranea colony vs RR's unimpressive showing against Zorian.

u/None [+4] (a day later)

Yeah but that's the fundamental attribution error. Maybe RR is that smart.

To be serious, I wonder if that's the only reason nobody103 included the punch-in-a-face promise and execution -- to confirm that's really Zach.

However, RR read Zach's mind and knew about the promise...

u/FuguofAnotherWorld [+2] Roll the Dice on Fate (a day later)

Time to fold that tinfoil hat in half and put it away again. Zorian knows what Zachs soul marker looks like and has the power to track it with a spell. Therefore Zorian can trivially confirm that Zach is not RR.

Also that's not what fundamental attribution error refers to. fundamental attribution error refers to choices and actions, not levels of competency, and is certainly not a multi-use clause to ignore any inconvenient evidence in a character's actions. You would need to then posit that RR allowed himself to be mind-fucked by a mind mage one purpose as part of a hideously complicated plan with a high chance of failure.

u/None [+2] (a day later)

1. IIRC he does not know that it's Zach's marker. He only knows that this marker belongs to the only time-traveler left in the loop.

2. I meant that we judge the actions as incompetent without knowing that background. But to pursue this argument further I need to reread end of arc 1.

Also, he could've improved a lot during the loop.

I am not too confident in this theory, but would give it 30% probability.

u/throwawayIWGWPC [+3] (a day later)

That would be amazing. It makes complete sense now why RR!Zach is so willing to say something like, "We'll figure this out so we can both exit the loop!" and other idealist talk . . .

Also, why do people use the XYZ!Character format? Where is this format from?

u/None [+5] (a day later)

More correct usage is fandom!character. It's UUCP, so soon we'll be transitioning to character@fandom.

u/throwawayIWGWPC [+2] (a day later)

Holy crap, that's it. Brilliant.

u/None [+24] (41 minutes later)

[deleted]

u/literal-hitler [+12] (an hour later)

Also, I wonder if they can ask the Gatekeeper to see how much longer the spell will last?

It has to be accessible somehow even without it, the matriarch seemed to have an idea.

u/Xtraordinaire [+19] Team Glimglam (an hour later)

So my first thought to the problem of only one person leaving is that we might already have the answer to that- much like the Cyorian matriarch did, Zorian could bring Zach's memories with him, or at least put a packet in his head, etc.

Except the person has already left the building Gate. Zach would be the 2nd one to exit, which would break 'only one exits' rule and that makes room for Zorian as well. If 2 can leave the Gate, then 3 can, too.

Memory packet OTOH would be a catch-22: pre-loop Zorian has no skills to read it.

u/melmonella [+3] Tremble, o ye mighty, for a new age is upon you (an hour later)

Zach can force Zorian to develop those skills.

u/Nepene [+1] (3 days later)

They did memory packets for a number of people. Presumably either a spell could download the packets, or the aranea matriarch can be pressed into service.

u/cretan_bull [+9] (4 hours later)

So my first thought to the problem of only one person leaving is that we might already have the answer to that- much like the Cyorian matriarch did, Zorian could bring Zach's memories with him, or at least put a packet in his head, etc.

This wouldn't be a complete solution, ideally you would want the soul, not just memories to be preserved. Knowledge is power, but there's a great deal to be said for a powerful magical core as well.

This brings up an interesting point: it appears the sovereign gate not only recreates the material world from a snapshot, but souls too, with the sole exception of those with the marker. This, along with the soul trap, implies that souls aren't quite extra-dimensional, but are tied to a specific material dimension or plane. Appropriate application of soul magic could perhaps be used to manually extricate a soul from the Gate's dimension and insert it in the real world.

If the copy of Zorian's soul from the Gate dimension were either sent back to the real world through some dimensional shenanigans or carried there physically in a soul trap, I think it would be reasonable for it to try to attach to his original body and successfully merge with his original soul. As Zorian did not enter the gate through the normal means this may be the only way for him to effectively "exit" the loop.

Soul magic may be a vital component of the solution in addition to dimensionalism. Even if dimensionalism proved successful, it could potentially lead to an interesting situation with two Zorians running around in the real world. Of course, this wouldn't be an issue if the younger Zorian had already died due to the invasion.

u/throwawayIWGWPC [+5] (a day later)

it appears the sovereign gate not only recreates the material world from a snapshot, but souls too

There's another solution that's pretty interesting. I looked up that one priest's discussion with Zorian about souls and found this bit from Chapter 51, emphasis mine.

"According to some stories, [using the soul, the gods] could even create an identical copy of a person, indistinguishable from the original in every way."

"Copies of people?" Zorian frowned.

"It is not that strange," Batak said, waving his hand dismissively. "The simulacrum spell does something very similar. While simulacrums are in no way f awless, they are suffi ciently real that some people have argued the use of the spell is inherently unethical. They believe that every time a simulacrum disperses, a person dies."

"Do you?" Zorian asked.

"No," Batak shook his head. "Naturally, I follow my Church’s dogma, and it states that only things with souls are considered people. Simulacrums do not have them."

Note that nothing in the above is said about using souls to create a duplicate soul, and yet exact copies of a person can be made that are utterly identical to the original. This suggests that people's bodies don't necessarily need to contain a soul. This could mean that souls could exist in the spiritual dimension like a lens. "Mana" shines through the souls, projecting a hologram/shadow onto the material realm and this is what creates consciousness.

The simulacrum spell is a secondary reproduction from the hologram, so does not appear to have a soul. The SGate, however, simply requests the hologram to shine into a looping version of the material plane, but does not feed any new data back to the souls except for souls that bear the mark.

This means souls don't need to be created or destroyed and there doesn't need to be any conundrum between original and time-loop Zorian. This solution is also more energy efficient than creating souls every loop then discarding them afterwards.

u/cretan_bull [+2] (a day later)

How do you explain Zorian's soul gaining in magical strength whereas an unmarked soul such as Taiven's does not? If both their souls are drawn by the Gate from the material plane, what distinguishes them? If the Gate merely resets from a physical template and the people it creates are simulacrums connected to their original souls, shouldn't all the souls record and preserve their experiences, regardless of whether they are marked as the controller or not?

u/throwawayIWGWPC [+2] (a day later)

I think this solves that problem.

u/cretan_bull [+3] (a day later)

I read your post, and perhaps it is a misunderstanding on my part, but I do not belive you addressed the principal issue of how the marked souls are treated differently from the unmarked.

Zorian comments on this in Chapter 27:

Zorian was quite sure that the time loop didn't pull back every soul back in time – if that was the case, every mage would feel the difference after a dozen or so restarts as their shaping skills miraculously increased overnight. Plus, there are 'normal' necromantic killing spells that forcibly banish the soul from the body to kill people and Zorian had occasionally seen them in use during the invasion. If every person whose soul was banished from their body ended up dead at the start of the time loop, the number of inexplicable corpses showing up at the start of the time loop would have started to pile up quickly and everyone would have realized something was very wrong by the time Zorian was brought in. So all in all, clearly the souls of regular people who were not time travelers weren't affected by anything that happened to them in previous time loops.

For any theory to be plausible it must account for this effect.

We have been given a number of pieces of information on the function of souls and simulacra, though there are still ambiguities:

Souls cannot be destroyed (Chapter 27):

Killing a soul was impossible. They could not be destroyed, only modified. Everyone said so – the teachers, all the books he had read discussing the topic, Kael the amateur necromancer… hell, even the goddamn lich had said so in one of his offhand comments back when Zorian was first brought into the time loop.

All entities with a soul possess personal mana; personal mana is used for casting magic (Chapter 22):

Personal mana was something that all things with a soul possessed in varying amounts, and it was attuned to the person producing it – it bent easily to its creator's will, and was innately more malleable and controllable than anything else they might use to power their magic, since it never resisted the caster's efforts to shape it

Life force is a special type of personal mana that keeps the body living (Chapter 51):

life force was simply a special type of personal mana that wasn't part of a mage's mana pool and was used exclusively by the body to keep itself living and resist foreign magics. Since the amount of life force rarely varied much between humans, and couldn't be used to power spells, the academy instructors hadn't spoken much about it.

Personal mana turns into ambient mana within minutes of leaving its creator (Chapter 39):

"Shame it's only useful for powering items," Kael said. "Having some kind of personal mana battery would have been a nice way of side stepping your limited mana reserves. Have you looked into making such a thing? Even if it only lasted a few weeks, that should be enough to be useful in your circumstances."

"Of course I've looked into it," Zorian scoffed. "It's impossible. Personal mana loses its affinity with its maker rapidly once expended, becoming indistinguishable from ambient mana in a matter of minutes."

Souls not only possess mana, but produce it and continue to do so even after death (Chapter 48):

Souls though… souls continued producing mana, even after death. It was what made them so valuable to spiritual entities like demons and was one of the reasons why undead were so much more convenient to use than golems.

Souls act a record for a living entity (Chapter 51):

"...souls are very mysterious things," Batak said seriously. "They have many functions, most of which we can't even understand, much less influence. But their most important function is not, as many mages believe, that they allow one to produce and shape mana. It is the fact they serve as a living, breathing records of everything a particular entity is."

Souls record the form of an entity's material body, and can be used as a template to create a new body (Chapter 51):

"The gods originally gave souls to living beings in order to record their thoughts and forms, so that their lives may be preserved after death and their deeds properly judged in the afterlife," Batak said. "For that reason, the gods, who had intimate knowledge of how souls worked, were capable of many miraculous things. So long as they had access to a person's soul, they could bring them back to life, even if their bodies have been reduced to ash and scattered into the winds. They could peer into their soul to examine their entire life from the moment they were born. They could restore a person's youth by regressing their forms to the state they once possessed. According to some stories, they could even create an identical copy of a person, indistinguishable from the original in every way."

The most detailed description of a simulacrum comes from Zorian's observation of Red Robe's attack on the aranea (Chapter 26):

But something was wrong, the sedatives didn't seem to have any effect on the robed man and many spells also failed to have any effect. Even stricken immobile, the man somehow managed to defend himself effectively, exploiting any openings to fire off strange purple beams that slew anyone they hit instantly. They were slow to cast and only targeted single opponents, so their losses were light, but it was still frustrating. Finally, one of the purple beams hit one of the human mercenaries and his companions lost their nerve, responding with a barrage of glowing lances that tore straight through the robed man's shield and impacted his chest.

For a moment, the matriarch was afraid that they had killed the man, making all her preparations and plotting meaningless… but the reality turned out to be far worse than that. Instead of erupting into a shower of blood and gore, the robed man simply… turned into smoke.

The opponent they had been fighting hadn't been the third time traveler in person. It had been merely an ectoplasmic shell infused with some of his skill and magic. A simulacrum, meant to test the waters and distract them.

Note that Red Robe's simulacrum was not physically identical to a human: it was more resistant to certain types of attack and when severly damaged turned to smoke. Zorian describes it as "an ectoplasmic shell infused with some of his skill and magic", and seems to think this synonymous with "simulacrum". In Chapter 51 Batak specifically refers to "the simulacrum spell", strongly suggesting that "simulacrum" refers only to this specific technique, quite distinct from the gods' ability to "bring [a person] back to life, even if their bodies had been reduced to ash and scattered into the winds" (though nonetheless based on the same principle of using the soul as a recording device). Batak further describes the simulacrum spell as "sufficiently real that some have argued the use of the spell is inherently unethical", which appears to imply that though a simulacrum is a mere ectoplasmic shell it forms a replica of the original's mind and is capable of acting as an independent intelligent agent.

Batak's assertion that a simulacrum does not have a soul is not entirely consistent with other evidence. He says "the soul needs a body, even if it's just an ectoplasmic shell… but the body equally needs a soul", asserting that an ectoplasmic shell is an adequate substitute for a body as far as a soul is concerned yet implying that an ectoplasmic shell could not survive without life force from a soul.

That a simulacrum can perform magic strongly suggests it has access to personal mana. One possibility is that the simulacrum is temporary and has a finite reserve of personal mana that it is invested with when created. Zorian's decription of Red Robe's simulacrum as "infused with some of [RR's] skill and magic" supports this, but Zorian is not necessarily reliable and may be biased by the church's dogma. The simulacrum's store of personal mana would lose its affinity "within minutes", and that would dictate the lifetime of the simulacrum. Batak apparently expected Zorian to know of the spell and it is well known enough to be the topic of ethical discussions; if the spell had a lifetime of only a few minutes I think it would be limited to niche applications and be relatively unknown, which is apparently not the case.

If a simulacrum used ambient mana directly it could last longer but would be "harder to control" and "substantial, prolonged use [would result] in sickness and insanity". Red Robe's simulacrum posed a potent threat to the aranea and a force of battlemages; that it could have done so using ambient mana stretches the bounds of credibility.

The other possibility is that the simulacrum remains connected to its creator's soul, which provides it with a supply of personal mana for life force and casting of magic. Batak's assertion that a simulacrum does not have a soul could be interpreted as a combination of a simulacrum not having its own soul and religious dogma. This would also imply that a soul is not strictly restricted to a single body, but can form connections over a distance. As the simulacrum has its own mind it would not be directly controlled by its creator, but it would share the same mana pool and other characteristics determined by the soul, such as shaping ability.

The Sovereign Gate does not appear to create simulacra (in the sense of an ectoplasmic shell) in its pocket dimension, rather it creates fully realised bodies in a manner more comparable to that described as within the gods' capabilities. Every person in the pocket dimension has a soul whether marked or not, this is observable; yet the unmarked souls reset at the end of the loop. I think the Sovereign Gate either has some mechanism by which it can create copies of souls (though this poses many problems) or it can somehow reset a soul back to an earlier state, which also seems implausible.

Edit: s/Barak/Batak/

u/throwawayIWGWPC [+3] (a day later)

Good points.

---

Zorian is not necessarily reliable and may be biased by the church's dogma.

I believe Zorian discussed simulacra with Batak after his confrontation with RR. Zorian gave little weight to the ideas of the religious prior to these discussions, but who knows if that affected his description of RR's simulacrum.

---

Batak's assertion that a simulacrum does not have a soul is not entirely consistent with other evidence.

I find it more likely that in the history of magic, simulacra have undergone significant research, including the examination of those with soul sight, so I believe Batak when he says simulacra have no soul.

On that note, it would be interesting to learn about the difference between the undead, golems, and simulacra. Clearly magic alone is enough to sustain these constructs, although it seems the simulacrum (imperfectly) uses the caster's soul as a blueprint.

---

if the spell had a lifetime of only a few minutes I think it would be limited to niche applications and be relatively unknown

I disagree here. A decently powerful clone of a competent mage, even short-lived, could be quite useful. Outside of a time loop, dungeon clearing could be done without mortal risk to the mage through divination, arcane eyes, and simulacra for particularly risky fights.

Also, if the simulacrum spell is well-known, the question of whether the spell has a soul must have been answered by a competent soul mage at some point in history. I imagine for the church to not object to the spell's usage, some priest with soul-sight examined a simulacrum and concluded no soul was present.

---

Like you, I doubt simulacra rely exclusively on ambient mana. I also agree that it's most likely that the simulacrum links to the caster's soul somehow to make use of their shaping skills and, I would guess, mana reserves.

---

Indeed, I don't think simulacra are precisely equivalent to how the gods or the Sovereign Gate read souls to copy an individual. Rather, I think simulacrum is an attempt to replicate that feat, but a poor attempt. I imagine the simulacrum is more like using the blueprints of a car to make a sketch, whereas what the gods and Sovereign Gate do is akin to building a duplicate car from the blueprints.

---

Yes, I feel copying souls poses problems, as does "resetting" several million souls every restart except for marked souls.

The solution I mention looks at souls like data on a harddrive. Reality reads data from the soul and usually updates the soul by writing in new data. However, within the timeloop, new data is not rewritten to souls except for souls that have the marker.

Other ramifications of this hypothesis is a clean explanation of simulacra: The spell uses an imperfect soul-read function to create a copy of the mage. Because the read function is imperfect, the simulacrum is imperfect and weaker than the original and needs to be infused with a portion of original caster's mana to operate. Furthermore, the imperfect read function means soul mages cannot look at the simulacrum and see the soul it reads from. Also, since the spell only uses a read function, information from the simulacrum does not update the original soul. Alternatively, the simulacrum reads from the soul only briefly, then stops, and this is why soul mages cannot see the soul that produced the simulacrum. This is a like a brief look through a dirty window and drawing what you see—the image you saw was smudged out and the drawing is anyhow just a facsimile.

By contrast, the Sovereign Gate and the gods read perfectly and continuously from the soul when copies are made. This means soul mages can look at the copy and clearly see the original soul. This is more like looking through a clean window; you can see the actual object beyond the glass.

The lich phylactery is also makes sense in light of this: Unlike the simulacrum, the lich's body reads from the soul continuously. If the body is destroyed, the phylactery acts as a backup device to continue reading from the soul.

Lastly, this soul hologram hypothesis means that souls are indeed neither created nor destroyed by the Sovereign Gate, which fits with the mythos. Remember that priests are connected with spiritual beings, which used to include gods. It's not unlikely that the reason people believe souls cannot be destroyed is because divine beings simply admitted that fact to humans. It's conceivable that every divine being refused to answer such questions or lied, but I doubt divine beings as a whole would act so homogeneously.

---

P.S. You keep referring to the priest as Barak. I didn't realize the US President was so religious. ;)

u/Xtraordinaire [+2] Team Glimglam (a day later)

The undead use enslaved souls as a mana source and dead flesh as a body. I assume this is because the body still has some affinity left for the mana generated by the captured soul. However, the soul can be powering up anything else (i.e. a ward scheme). In terms of versatility this is the best option. However, it is unethical.

A golem is a spell-formula-powered physical construct. They can be charged with mana, can use ambient mana and can utilize crystallized mana.

A simulacrum then would be a non-physical construct. The fiery vortices from battle for Sudomir's mansion are similar. As is homing missile: once spell pattern is formed with mana, the effect can go on it's own for some time. Simulacrum, presumably just takes this to the next level. Instead of a simple homing function it has some useful AI. The mana that is pumped into the simulacrum does not dissipate because it is already contained by a spell boundary. It is also possible that simulacrum is not charged with mana, but with spell-ammo instead, where the caster's soul does all the mana shaping work in advance.

u/throwawayIWGWPC [+2] (2 days later)

Right, I forgot that undead still have souls. Chapter 47:

[Golems] were just as tireless as the living dead, and had no souls for the necromancer to mess with.

---

Simulacrum, presumably just takes this to the next level. [. . .] It is also possible that simulacrum is not charged with mana, but with spell-ammo instead, where the caster's soul does all the mana shaping work in advance.

I would agree with this, except that for a construct to cast spells, it usually needs to be covered with complex runework, e.g., Sudomir's dragon. Casting ability is extremely narrow. Also, correct me if I'm wrong, when mana is structured ahead of time, as with spell formulae, the result is that the resulting effects are specific and constrained spellwork.

While I admit it's possible that a simulacrum is just another (likely lesser) version of that dragon construct, I think it's more likely that simulacra utilize soul magic and a tentative link to the caster's soul in the place of runework. I say this assuming that compared with the caster, the simulacrum indeed has shaping skills and similar yet paired-down casting ability.

u/Xtraordinaire [+1] Team Glimglam (2 days later)

You're right, but Sudomir's dragon is quite probably an undead. Possibly automated by the original dragon soul, even. That would explain the casting ability.

In any way, the runework is just a complex pre-built spell boundary. (ch 11)

"Tell me, what are spell formulas?" [...]

"It's the practice of using geometric shapes and various sigils to modify spells, usually in order to strengthen wards or amplify spellcasting," said Zorian.

"Really? How do they do that?" asked Nora in mock curiosity.

"Err… they limit mana flow along pre-determined pathways?" tried Zorian.

"Yes!" agreed Nora. "They limit, that's exactly what they do! I can't tell you how many mages think they're some kind of inherent amplifier or something. Drives me crazy, I tell you. Of course, most modern crafters use special materials that are inherent amplifiers, but that's something else entirely. Anyway, you know the point behind structured spellcasting, right?"

"The narrower the effect of the spell is, the more mana efficient it becomes. Structured magic creates a spell boundary to forcibly narrow down effect space into something manageable for a human spellcaster."

"And spell formulas are the exact same thing, only with more pronounced benefits and drawbacks," said Nora.

The end goal is to make mana flow form a certain geometric shape.

You can implement the mana limiters in your construct on a physical matter and get a golem, or you can use your personal mana for the task to the same effect. Except with golems you can take your time, with simulacrum you have to cram all of it in a single invocation. The end effect will be inflexible in both cases: it won't be able to cast anything you haven't prepared it to cast in advance. It can't do unstructured magic or even supercharge a magic missile.

However, a simulacrum does not need to be infinitely flexible to be useful. After all it's a disposable body double that is meant to be used in a very dangerous situation. It is more useful than a golem in some situations because destruction of a golem is costly and it takes more time and preparation to create. OTOH you can conjure simulacrum with zero cost (other than your mana, ofc), get it killed and then create it again and again.

u/throwawayIWGWPC [+1] (2 days later)

Whether the dragon was undead or not is an open question in my mind. Indeed, most undead do not have their bodies covered in runework, but most undead aren't flying dragon skeletons that shoot destructive rays. If the dragon's soul was still present, would Sudomir have been able to control it through his mind? Perhaps. I'm of the opinion that he simply used the bones of a dragon to make a golem that can be controlled by Sudomir psychically. Again, it's speculation.

On that subject, how do undead work? If you start with a corpse and then reanimate, then how do you have access to the soul? Wouldn't the soul have already "left"? Does raising the dead bring the soul back from the void? If a corpse is risen without being powered by a soul, is that just a flesh golem?

I'd love to hear nobody103 comment on this.

---

However, a simulacrum does not need to be infinitely flexible to be useful. After all it's a disposable body double that is meant to be used in a very dangerous situation. It is more useful than a golem in some situations because destruction of a golem is costly and it takes more time and preparation to create. OTOH you can conjure simulacrum with zero cost (other than your mana, ofc), get it killed and then create it again and again.

At this point, it's speculation. I do remember that Zorian said a simulacrum is infused with a portion of the caster's "skill and magic". That can be interpreted both ways: Does the caster pre-shape a bunch of spells for the simulacrum to cast? Or does the simulacrum weakly read the properties of the caster's soul, and thus create a limited facsimile of the caster, shaping skills and all?

u/nobody103 [+2] (2 days later)

On that subject, how do undead work?

Undead are golems that use souls as a substitute for an animation core. That makes them a lot cheaper and quicker/easier to make than regular golems. The soul has to be from a creature that had similar form to the body it is animating, so you can't use animal souls to animate humans. Likewise, you cannot use human souls to animate animals and other radically-different entities. Obviously, the quality of the animation is the highest if you have a soul that was originally matched to the body in question, but any human soul will do to animate most human bodies.

The soul also serves as a convenient power-source, which makes undead easier to use outside of magic-rich areas.

If you start with a corpse and then reanimate, then how do you have access to the soul?

The soul stays anchored to the body for a while after death, unless the body is totally/heavily destroyed. After a while, the soul moves on to the spiritual planes and is beyond the reach of necromancers. A necromancer needs access to the recently dead so they can capture their souls before they move on. Getting access to the dying in their last moments can be tricky, so most necromancers resort to producing their own recently deceased corpses (through killing).

If a corpse is risen without being powered by a soul, is that just a flesh golem?

Yes. Golems and undead are both animated constructs, with the main difference being what serves as their core.

u/throwawayIWGWPC [+1] (2 days later)

Now I'm curious to read about the victims Sudomir used to make his black-clothed undead . . . or whether he simply used his soul well and a bunch of random corpses.

Also, I can't wait to see Zorian grill the Operator for the workers of the Gate!

u/Xtraordinaire [+1] Team Glimglam (2 days later)

You're right, the dragon could be a sophisticated golem. However, it seems reasonable that it can have some functions outsourced to souls, i.e. movement and remote control work just like in Zorian's golems, however it's reasonable to assume that the enegry source is a soul-trap or a direct feeding link to the big soul well.

If you start with a corpse and then reanimate, then how do you have access to the soul?

I guess you just have to start with a living subject... Or set a soultrap in advance.

At this point, it's speculation.

It's reasonable speculation when it comes to determining use cases for those options. Necromancy is technically great, but morally bankrupt. Golems are costly. Simulacra are cheap and disposable, but require a great amount of skill. This way each option has clearly defined advantages and weaknesses.

u/throwawayIWGWPC [+1] (2 days later)

However, it seems reasonable that it can have some functions outsourced to souls.

Yes, that makes a lot of sense. He could even power it using human souls seeing as he has that freaking soul well.

you just have to start with a living subject

I agree, but that's so uncharacteristic of the stereotypical necromancer who raises undead from the deceased. But nothing says MoL has to be stereotypical, and I think that solution is pretty clean.

To be perfectly clear about the problems with raising corpses using their departed soul, this mechanic would imply the body anchors the soul even after death. In that case, a necromancer could access hundreds of human souls by going to their local graveyard. Necromancy shouldn't be that convenient.

One solution is that undead are generally powered by animal souls, which explains why most undead are feral. On the other extreme, you have undead made with human souls—vampires, liches, etc.

u/Dragrath [+2] (a day later)

I really like your speculation on the nature of souls in this series if the reason that simulacrum don't appear to have a soul is because they are an imperfect copy(comparable a program missing an important variable assignment). In the context of this series looking back it seems soul magic can be explained in the likes of a coding language developed by this worlds gods. In this case if the creator of the Sovereign gate had accurately deciphered the language then it makes sense how they could do things seemingly impossible through the "normal" brute force attempts to manipulate the code without knowing the underlying structure.

I hope we can get a larger understanding of this underlying structure in the future it would be interesting to see if the gods of this world actually developed the world in the manner of a programmer.

u/throwawayIWGWPC [+2] (2 days later)

That's an interesting perspective. The time loop would then be a feat of dimensionalism and soul magic. I know the author Domagoj has a new (and largely unpopulated) world-building website that will eventually contain more details of the magic system and hopefully describes the nature of soul magic. I wouldn't be surprised if it works a lot like computer code, as you say. For the sanity of the gods and the creator of the Sovereign Gate, I hope the syntax of soul magic doesn't look like Assembly. D:

u/thrawnca [+2] Carbon-based biped (a day later)

I'm not so sure it does. If the most important function of souls is to be a living record of who a person is, then how can you make a copy of the person, attached to the same soul, that does not record changes? I think you have to copy the soul(s) if you want changes to be transient.

Moreover, Batak talks about the soul needing a body, even "just an ectoplasmic shell". That doesn't sound like shining a hologram, but rather like the body does indeed 'contain' the soul. Batak may not have specifically talked about souls being copied, but it stands to reason that the gods could do it (given sufficient power to create souls, full understanding of how they work, and access to the original).

u/throwawayIWGWPC [+3] (a day later)

It's possible that a soul is read into a person's brain and changes are written back into the soul. If reading and writing are two separate functions, then the simulation can choose to allow the read function and disallow the write function.

As for souls requiring a "shell", if you use a projector and don't have a screen, you won't see an image. The body is the screen that allows the soul to manifest.

u/BoilingLeadBath [+7] (an hour later)

I wonder if they can ask the gatekeeper how much longer the spell will last

Yes. Also:

• How many loops ago did the controller leave? (While the guardian did say that "the time loop cannot end while the controller is inside", it is not operating in its intended condition. If the Red Robe left THIS loop, I would not completely trust the loop to reset in the traditional way, so it may be worth trying something moderately desperate in the remaining days.)

u/Cheese_Ninja [+12] (9 hours later)

My guess: RR probably left in chapter 33 when the loop ended early for no reason that Zorian could figure out. Right after that restart is the 2nd time he tries the tracking ritual. Still, don't know why RR wouldn't show up the first time he attempted it, unless RR was off continent for some reason.

Zorian gave Kirielle an incredulous look. What? Why was he here? The summer festival was still days away, and the last thing he remembered was peacefully falling to sleep. Did Zach die again prematurely again or was he killed in his sleep without even realizing it?

According to this link. That was about a year and 9 months ago.

u/Xtraordinaire [+1] Team Glimglam (a day later)

It's a neat find, but unfortunately, Zorian has been actively meddling in Sudomir's town by that point. We know there was an assassination attempt in the next chapter, so maybe this was a result of Zorian getting killed in his sleep.

Plus, he had already cast the detection ritual in ch 32, and got two markers, not three.

I suspect RR got out on the 3rd or 4th month after ch 26. By the time Zorian finished his 'vacation' he was gone.

u/TimTravel [+2] (19 hours later)

Shaping skills would still be lost that way, because it's a soul property not a memory property.

u/vallar57 [+24] Unseen University: Faculty of High-Energy Magic (an hour later)

Wow. What an excellent way to end an arc - just like with the first one, with protagonist being completely, thoroughly outplayed. They didn't even catch a tail of Red Robe - looks like he left looong ago.

My thought is that the solution to their problem would be some kind of brute-forcing. The obvious DragonBall-ish plot of recovering every part of the Key aside - maybe it can unlock the Gate, maybe it can't - they are still in a pocket dimension. Perhaps it is possible to simply break through the anchor point. We already saw an example of breaking a pocket dimension open. With enough power, it's possible to do just about anything, possibly including escaping an extradimensional prison.

At least time to figure things out they have in spades. Or not, if the Guardian will drop another bombshell on them in the next chapter and say that they only have a few restarts till the loop cpllapses automatically (I think the first part of the next chapter will be Zorian and Zach questioning the Guardian for everything it knows).

u/kaukamieli [+4] (11 hours later)

How long did the last guy say he was in the loop?

u/Frommerman [+8] (17 hours later)

Fourteen lifetimes. Zorian's only been in for a few years, but Zach's lost count and had his memory wiped to boot.

u/kaukamieli [+5] (18 hours later)

Yeaaaaah, forgot that Zorian wasn't in from the beginning, so we don't really have many ways to know... Gotta fix Zach's brains I guess.

Not that a legend would be very trustworthy anyway and the thing could be under more stress with multiple controllers.

u/thrawnca [+1] Carbon-based biped (7 days later)

Yes, we did see a pocket dimension being broken open - but the loop immediately reset when that happened. I suspect that's not coincidence, but rather a failsafe.

u/vallar57 [+2] Unseen University: Faculty of High-Energy Magic (8 days later)

I think it's a failsafe too. But any good failsafe has a way to bypass it, for unpredicted circumstances when the fail is actually desirable or the failsafe triggers on something it's not designed for. My bet is that one of the switches on the soul marker can turn it off.

u/loonyphoenix [+20] (2 hours later)

It just occurred to me that I now know the real reason Zorian couldn't find Red Robe with the detection spell. It's not that Red Robe lacked the soul marker, Red Robe was just already absent from the loop. Damn. The theory never even occured to me before, yet now it seems a very likely explanation, in hindsight.

The conclusion that Red Robe doesn't have the soul marker was actually influencing a lot of my estimations about a lot of things, and now I need to reevaluate everything. Damn.

u/xamueljones [+9] My arch-enemy is entropy (11 hours later)

now it seems a very likely explanation, in hindsight.

No it wasn't. The main insight was the fact that one could "leave" the loop early without ending the loop itself. I mean before, we all believed that ending the loop for one person would end it for everyone since that's how "time loops" and not parallel dimensions apparently work. Why was there any reason to believe that one would just "exit" the loop early?

So what I'm trying to say is it wasn't very obvious at all and there's no need to beat yourself up for mistaking parallel dimensions for a time loop. And I totally agree with you about reevaluating everything. ARGH! ;)

u/loonyphoenix [+4] (12 hours later)

I'm inclined to believe that, should this explanation have been provided ahead of time, not in-story, for example by someone here, in the /r/rational discussions, everything would have clicked very well and I would consider this theory one of the most likely to be true.

Edit: I wouldn't say the likelihood of the theory would be more than 50%, just that it would look the most likely out of the multitude of theories floating about. I'm amazed no one even contemplated the possibility that Red Robe already left the loop, even given the evidence that his soul marker cannot be found. Everyone just accepted the in-story vague explanation that maybe Red Robe found an alternative means to enter the loop.

u/xamueljones [+5] My arch-enemy is entropy (12 hours later)

True that Red Robe leaving the loop would have explained the lack of his soul marker earlier in the story, but what I'm trying to say is that it didn't make sense motive-wise then. Why would anyone leave a time loop early? From everyone's perspectives, there was no such thing as only one person leaving. It was reasonably assumed that everyone would be able to escape and in that scenario, leaving early is a terrible move since your enemies will jump to monstrously strong heights in a blink of an eye. Therefore it made the most sense for Red Robe to still be in the loop.

It required a shift in the understanding of the actual nature of the time loop to understand why only one person could leave, from which the deduction that Red Robe left early becomes trivial.

While people could have deducted that he left early, we pride ourselves on reading stories where characters make intelligent decisions and it would have required an amazingly mind-boggling amount of stupidity on Red Robe's part to give up such a huge advantage even with multiple time travelers around. With multiple time traveling enemies, you either end the loop for everyone or keep a very, very low profile.

u/t3tsubo [+3] (16 hours later)

It could be a rational as readers of the story to accept this theory prior to this reveal if we considered that RR didn't know that the time loop would persist after he left. Meaning the deduction is not simply "RR has a soul marker - he just left the time loop", it's deducing "RR left the time loop thinking the risk was too high and he had gained enough power, not knowing that the time loop is still persisting because a controller is still inside".

u/thrawnca [+3] Carbon-based biped (21 hours later)

Not only had he gained enough power, but he knew that his further efforts to refine the invasion would be pointless, since other time loopers - who (he believed) wouldn't exist after the loop ended - were disrupting things.

u/ggrey7 [+1] (3 days later)

I think there's still a lot of questions with that interpretation. Why did RR bother to ambush Zach if he already knew how to leave the loop all along? We know he messed with Zach's mind at least once.

It's enough to make you consider the tinfoil theory that the current Zach isn't the real one or is RR in disguise.

u/thrawnca [+1] Carbon-based biped (7 days later)

RR wouldn't have been keen to leave the loop early. It's a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity to gain knowledge and magic, and he has a specific project in mind (the invasion) that will need everything he has. He would have made some attempt to dispose of his competition and have the loop to himself.

u/Schpwuette [+17] (41 minutes later)

Phew. When I heard only one could leave I started to worry about heroic sacrifice. But now their hand is forced. Sacrifice won't get them anywhere - they must fight to leave together! Well, unless the secret exit also only permits one...

u/thrawnca [+1] Carbon-based biped (a day later)

I don't think there's a secret exit. I think the only way that they can get out is by gaining admin privileges, which must mean collecting the Key. In which case, they ought to be able to order the Gate to let them both through. Zach would definitely let Zorian out, because that's just the kind of guy he is, and Zorian would definitely let Zach out, because they still have to fight Quatach-Ichl and no-one else is up to that job.

u/jkwrites [+15] (an hour later)

Zorian's TODO list:

• Obtain as much information from the Guardian as possible - there should be a countdown until power runs out, at least.
• Find the people responsible for starting the loop in the first place - they should be in the loop and have the knowledge required. Actually, if this is an exact copy of the original, in the moment the spell was cast, those people should be casting the spell at the start of the loop.
• Find out a way how to exit the loop. Possibly brute-force your way out with dimensionalism

u/JulianWyvern [+16] Wayward Wanderer (19 hours later)

• Talk to Zack about his unfortunate tendency to resort to violence to solve personal disputes

u/karsyutain [+7] (4 hours later)

If it possible, I think repairing Zach's memory is very important.

u/FuguofAnotherWorld [+4] Roll the Dice on Fate (a day later)

Probability that Zach will allow Zorian to fiddle with his memories: ~0%

u/WTFwhatthehell [+4] (6 days later)

Though learning that someone has already taken the single escape pod allows the 2 of them to trust each other far far more. They're no longer in a state where they both know they both have an incentive to screw each orther.

u/FuguofAnotherWorld [+1] Roll the Dice on Fate (6 days later)

True. Though it would be more accurate to say they're in a state where they have less of an incentive to screw each other. If Zorian were for example to work out how to mind magic Zach into being highly loyal, then he would have a much simplified path to money and power upon exiting the loops.

Not that I think Zorian would do that, or that he has that capability, but it is still an incentive and Zach certainly doesn't know the full extent of Zorian's powers.

u/WTFwhatthehell [+3] (7 days later)

That's somewhat of a marginal gain since he knows that Zacks family fortune has been raided. (though, yes, to be fair zach doesn't know he knows that)

Both of them are likely to have a pretty easy path to wealth and power upon getting out of the loop thanks to their experience and most of the gains from mind controlling him could also be gained simply by being friends/allies.

u/FuguofAnotherWorld [+1] Roll the Dice on Fate (7 days later)

I was including as part of the path getting back the money from the one who raided his fortune.

u/rabotat [+3] (18 hours later)

I don't know if I remember this correctely, but a lot of important people go missing at the beginning of the loop.

u/Xtraordinaire [+12] Team Glimglam (2 minutes later)

Oooh, ominous title!

u/I-want-pulao [+8] (12 minutes later)

As soon as I saw that title I was like. Shit is going south. And it really really did.

u/pldl [+13] (2 hours later)

I feel like this explains some questions:

The reason why RR never used the "soulkill" on the others is because the loop prevents you from doing it on yourself. Just in case you do it by accident, it'll prevent you from rendering the time loop pointless.

The reason why Zorian never sensed RR through the soul marker is because RR wasn't in the pocket dimension anymore.

u/thrawnca [+4] Carbon-based biped (21 hours later)

I'm pretty sure that the only reason RR didn't soulkill them is because he didn't get a good chance to. After he attacked Zorian, and Zorian blew himself up, RR had a whole restart to worry about how many loopers there were, and what kind of mind magic they might have (one of his real weaknesses). Plus, there was no point in further experiments on the invasion, since he knew that those other loopers were disrupting his plans - which he figured would not be relevant to making the invasion work on the outside. I reckon that's when he decided to get himself to the Gate and quit while he was ahead.

u/pldl [+3] (a day later)

He had plenty of chances to soulkill Zach though if that were true.

u/thrawnca [+3] Carbon-based biped (a day later)

Like when? He did attack Zach, but didn't succeed, and since then Zach has been on the run promptly with each restart.

Despite speculation, we don't know that RR had any significant interaction with Zach before the night he killed the aranea. Indeed, the fact that he brought along a lich and a vampire just to beat Zach down and get access to his mind suggests the opposite. And we know that in a fair fight, Zach trounces him.

u/thrawnca [+2] Carbon-based biped (7 days later)

I'll grant you that he had one chance to soulkill Zach, right after he read Zach's mind.

I'd say that either Zach is indeed the key to the loop, as Zorian speculates, and can't be zapped, or else it would have been impolitic to demonstrate the soulkill spell in front of Quatach-Ichl.

u/Igigigif [+11] IT Foxgirl (2 hours later)

This probably won't happen, but assuming the loop is inescapable and that the in-loop Gate is functional, we might see the protagonists resort to infinitely recursive time loops to continue existing.

cue Inception honk

u/Kazinski [+5] (4 hours later)

I'm imagining how powerful Zorian would be with as much experience as someone like Quatach-Ichl

u/throwawayIWGWPC [+2] (a day later)

Being a lich is a pretty sweet deal—better than being in a time loop in some ways. According to the wiki, Quatach-Ichl is about a thousand years old, which, depending on how old mages get, is about ten lifetimes and counting.

u/thrawnca [+5] Carbon-based biped (21 hours later)

The in-loop Gate is functional, yes, but it's also aware of the whole situation. I'm pretty sure it won't, or even can't, set up recursive simulations. And where would it get the power?

u/None [+13] (an hour later)

[deleted]

u/Xtraordinaire [+11] Team Glimglam (an hour later)

RR being proficient with soul magic is at odds with that marker-detection ritual. I think we have to conclude that the Red Robe had no marker at all (unlikely at this point) or he has acquired soul marker via some crude method that did not entail full understanding of how soul stuff works. Enter blood magics.

u/None [+7] (2 hours later)

[deleted]

u/Xtraordinaire [+17] Team Glimglam (2 hours later)

Oh, he surely did, that's why Zorian's ritual showed only Zach.

But I meant that he has not used it himself. The ritual was described as medium-level stuff at best. Entry-level, really. No need of soul sight or even soul-awareness.

If RR is a rational master soul mage that got into loop by deliberate marker duplication, that ritual is the first thing he does in chapter 25. Consequently, there is no chapter 26 for Zorian as he is annihilated. Not using it is a major major major fuck up for RR if he knows it. Conclusion: he is not very good at soul magic.

u/throwawayIWGWPC [+3] (a day later)

We know that at the very least, RR has soul-sight:

"You are shielding yourself from divinations," Red Robe said in his distorted voice. "Good. At least you're smarter than that fool Zach. Can you believe that even after all these decades in the time loop he still hasn't learned how to hide himself from the most childish of locator spells? You, on the other hand, have been in the time loop for, what? Three, four years? And you already know how to shield yourself from my soul perception."

Zorian said nothing, trying to sink further into the crack he was hiding in and wracking his brains for a way to lose the man. It was fortunate that Kael had taught him how to shield himself from soul sight, because Red Robes was apparently a motherfucking necromancer!

So, the question remains: Why didn't RR track Zorian down immediately after finishing off the aranea or in the following restarts?

u/Xtraordinaire [+3] Team Glimglam (a day later)

The answer is, I suppose, he had obtained soul sight during the loop or not long before the loop. He has the perception, but he is not a master of this discipline. Perhaps, he is arrogant.

Kael hinted that there are quicker, unethical ways to get soul sight. There is no reason to believe that RR is concerned with ethics.

u/throwawayIWGWPC [+2] (a day later)

Good point.

u/WTFwhatthehell [+1] (6 days later)

Since zach and zorian showed willing to slaughter and mindrape their way through countless villages for training.... ethics doesn't seem a high priority to them either. Compared to some of tgeir actions so far a little baby-eating to gain soul sight wouldn't be a big deal

u/ggrey7 [+2] (3 days later)

Wait, how did RR know Zorian was in the loop for 3-4 years?

u/throwawayIWGWPC [+2] (4 days later)

Good question. I was assuming Quatach-Ichl told him about the soul blend before the loop ended, but that didn't make any sense because Zach's death ends the loop.

My guess is that the aranea led to Zach, saying how long the new loopers had been in the loop.

u/Cheese_Ninja [+1] (17 days later)

Remember how Zorian's first 7 months in the loop had Zach missing from it? I figured RR was inferring the time period from the beginning of Zach's absence after Quatach-Ichl soul melded them. He didn't know exactly what happened to create Zach's disappearance, but he knew it was something major, and upon finding out about more time traveler(s), decided that their entry was the cause. At one point early on, Zorian wonders if was actually an even longer period of time for Zach's absence, that he himself wasn't even conscious/aware, which is definitely possible, since most estimates put Zach at a bit under 3 years in the loop during that confrontation with RR.

It's interesting to note that we don't know exactly what was going on with Zach during those first seven loops. Did he truly not exist in the loop, or was he unconscious the whole time and his condition was masked by either RR or his guardian with news of "his disappearance"?

That leads to another question about whether this is Zach's true soul in the loop, and whether Zorian's is just a duplicate, if Zorian's is a duplicate, and gets merged on top of real soul upon leaving the loop, that should have some interesting effects. It would probably raise Zorian's max mana reserves from 32ish to 64ish for one thing, boosting him up to 40ish immediately upon leaving the loop, probably without significantly negatively affecting his shaping skills too.

u/elevul [+2] Cyoria Observer (9 hours later)

Very interesting point of view. Perhaps he just couldn't be bothered?

u/Xtraordinaire [+3] Team Glimglam (12 hours later)

He was bothered to return to aranean dungeon in ch26 and after that attack Zach twice, presumably to mine him for more information. I conclude he does not know the ritual and does not think that such thing can even exist.

u/FuguofAnotherWorld [+2] Roll the Dice on Fate (a day later)

Solid reasoning, I'd missed that fact.

u/Frommerman [+2] (17 hours later)

Why does it have to be RR? We already know that !loop Quatach-Ichl is willing to cast a soul fusing spell on people during the loop. He could've done the same to RR.

u/bassicallyboss [+2] (20 hours later)

What does the [adjective]![name] nomenclature mean, and where did it originate? I've seen it a few times now, but I've been unable to divine its purpose. Does "Real!Tesen" mean something different than "Real Tesen" does, and if not, why use the former?

u/thrawnca [+4] Carbon-based biped (21 hours later)

It's a way of tagging characters - useful when dealing with fan fiction, where the same name in different stories can be quite a different character.

I don't know its origin, but it avoids ambiguity, since an exclamation mark is never (that I know of) actually used in the middle of a name (whereas Adjective Name might well be a legitimate name in many stories), plus if it's a grammatical exclamation mark, it should have a space after it.

u/bassicallyboss [+2] (a day later)

So mostly for distinguishing characters between stories, then. Thanks, that really helps me with the usage.

According to the links that u/Altiumbe shared below, it (probably) comes from X-files fans, among whom the first instance seems to have been Action!Mulder. The bang was satirizing/borrowed from action figures, who often had names like "Stretchy! Man."

u/None [+3] (22 hours later)

I'm working purely of my own Google-fu here, but they seem to be called Characterization Tags. Fanlore is pretty unhelpful on the 'why' bit, and other than that, there's an /r/OutOfTheLoop thread from just under a year ago that's mostly just the one commenter copy/pasting from the sites I just linked.

u/bassicallyboss [+2] (a day later)

Hmm, thanks for the links! The fanlore talk page seems to have a few more details. At least based on the evidence you've provided, I think the X-files/action figure story is the more plausible one.

u/throwawayIWGWPC [+2] (a day later)

I literally just asked this question above. Thanks for asking it seven hours earlier. :D

u/throwawayIWGWPC [+2] (a day later)

This is the answer to your question.

u/throwawayIWGWPC [+2] (a day later)

Do you happen to know where the XYZ!CharacterName format comes from?

u/HPMOR_fan [+2] (a day later)

I doubt Tesen is directly involved but I bet he knows something. An interrogation would probably reveal someone interested in the Gate.

u/AurelianoTampa [+10] (15 hours later)

Treasure hunt seems imminent! Ring, crown, staff, orb, dagger...

So, this might be a silly assumption, but... does anyone else think that the crown mentioned is the one Quatach-Ichl is wearing?

Encased in gold-decorated armor, with a scepter held tightly in one of its skeletal hands and a crown full of purple gemstones, the creature looking like some long-dead king risen from the dead.

Time to go hunting for other possible Chekov's guns...

Staff: Lots to look for, none that stick out in my mind. Unless the lich's scepter counts as well? 2 for the price of one?

Ring: Chapter 8:

"I wonder what's keeping the saplings confined to that ring of trees," wondered Zorian aloud. "This meadow should be a copse of trees by now.

Zach blinked. "I never thought about that," he admitted. "You notice the strangest things, Zorian."

I think that might have some potential, but I'd prefer an actual physical ring. Haslush has a metal ring that converts alcohol to plain sugar - not exactly an artifact fit for an emperor.

u/JulianDelphiki2 [+6] (16 hours later)

There might be a physical ring buried there. And it is part of the Noveda state. Plus, we never got any kind of explanation. Quatach-Ichl's crown it's somewhat obvious so it might be a red herring.

u/HPMOR_fan [+2] (a day later)

The lich has to have at least one of these. Probably those other noble houses too.

If they can learn the soulkill spell they can use it to get the treasures. Since they don't need to find the treasures in the real world they can cheat all they want. But soulkilling the lich or other important pieces of the invasion would make it impossible to prepare for them.

u/None [+12] (4 hours later)

Standing by my theory RR = Tesen Zveri. Although I'm less confident he is using the memory packet method, I'm still not sold on his having a marker. He was sighted the two loops after SoulKill, then gone. He knew during those two there were more time travellers but never did the simple ritual to find Zorian? He contended himself with attacking them both in the settlement, then Zach at home the next loop, then apparently just left?

I stand by my assertion RR is a crappy mage, only his loop override spells are any good, which points to memory packets.

In this chapter we learned he gave the crown the sov gate, and it sounds like more than a month ago(inspections are routine etc.).

u/TimTravel [+5] (19 hours later)

Zorian was unimpressed with his mind magic skills when they met. That's before Zorian knew anything about memory packets.

u/None [+5] (5 hours later)

While he was soul killing he found they didn't have the mark?

Having dozens of time travelers is is worth investigating, finding a highly competent mind mage poking around(maybe even thinking it was zach?) is a risk not worth investigating

u/None [+7] (5 hours later)

You could be right. He met Zorian ~30 mins into loop SK+1. He had the upper hand and chased him, but being foiled waited for Zach to come to the settlement. That time he was forced to flee, so he ambushed Zach at the start of SK+2, forcing Zach to flee. Those were the only two times he could face Zach and be certain Zorian couldn't intervene. After that there was always the chance Zach had recruited Zorian during SK+2, so he left the loop.

Ok, I think it's much more likely he does have a marker but didn't want to risk another fight with a mind mage.

u/None [+1] (5 hours later)

I still think its possible rr doesn't know zorain exists, if he found out the spiders were lieing somehow why would the tiny hints about the guy who has been keeping his hand close to his chest not be swept away as lies as well.

u/bludvein [+6] (7 hours later)

Impossible, since he flat had a shootout with Zorian during the Soul Kill chapter. Was that supposed to be a figment of his imagination or a random passerby?

u/None [+1] (19 hours later)

Caves are dark, its possible he thought it was zach

u/throwawayIWGWPC [+5] (a day later)

I just saw this quote on a forum:

"You are shielding yourself from divinations," Red Robe said in his distorted voice. "Good. At least you're smarter than that fool Zach. Can you believe that even after all these decades in the time loop he still hasn't learned how to hide himself from the most childish of locator spells? You, on the other hand, have been in the time loop for, what? Three, four years? And you already know how to shield yourself from my soul perception."

Zorian said nothing, trying to sink further into the crack he was hiding in and wracking his brains for a way to lose the man. It was fortunate that Kael had taught him how to shield himself from soul sight, because Red Robes was apparently a motherfucking necromancer!

RR knows to a limited degree who's who apparently. And has soul-sight.

u/kaukamieli [+3] (11 hours later)

It looks pretty obvious the gate would only leave "controller" leave. That means someone with the marker.

u/clawclawbite [+11] (7 hours later)

It will be almost impossible to get into the secret underground research base! What, we just need some paperwork!?!

Smart problem solving!

u/rabotat [+4] (18 hours later)

He got that information by working on his aranea mind skills and interpretation for years.

u/clawclawbite [+9] (18 hours later)

I was congratulating the aranea for smart research and planning to bypass what was looking like a traditional dungeon crawl quest.

u/rabotat [+3] (18 hours later)

Oh, sorry, I thought you were sarcastic.

u/Draconomial [+10] Sunshine Regiment (an hour later)

Time to tinker with the control panel!

u/kaukamieli [+14] (11 hours later)

Act 3 will be short.

"Can you mayhaps... unbarr the gate?"

"You only had to ask."

u/Menolith [+17] Unworthy Opponent (13 hours later)

"Sudo unbar the gate."

u/thrawnca [+4] Carbon-based biped (21 hours later)

I expect that root access will be granted once they assemble the Key.

u/FiveColorGoodStuff [+9] mana construct (2 hours later)

The time travel spell was powered by love, of all things – what kind of magic was that?

Foreshadowing, anyone?

u/gbear605 [+11] history’s greatest story (3 hours later)

Nah, reference to Harry Potter

u/None [+8] (5 hours later)

And maybe Interstellar with love transcends all bullshit.

u/FiveColorGoodStuff [+8] mana construct (5 hours later)

Yeah, I was just joking. Still, I can imagine nobody103 writing a story for ~8 years and gathering thousands of readers only to conclude with this type of ending. It's probably what I would do.

u/bassicallyboss [+6] (20 hours later)

This story has been going on eight years!? I just discovered it a few months ago! Now if the third arc is going to be as long as the first two, I'm going to have to wait four years for it to be done? Maybe I should just wait and read it all at once, like a physical book...

edit: Either way, I guess, props to nobody103 for writing a great story and having the dedication to keep going so long.

u/AKAAkira [+7] (2 days later)

The publishing date of MoL is October 2011; it's gone for only four years and 8 months. Eight years is probably just the upper bound on how long it'll take to publish the last chapter measured from the first chapter.

u/ggrey7 [+5] (3 days later)

Also, it was one chapter every 2 months in the past. Current release is way faster.

u/daydev [+2] (a day later)

Assuming the current cadence holds (1 chapter per 3 weeks), and assuming the third arc will be of a similar length (~25 chapters), we'll have to wait "only" about a year and a half (~80 weeks).

u/literal-hitler [+5] (16 minutes later)

Typo thread?

other aranean elders he had seem recently.

u/passwordisoptional [+5] (an hour later)

and it's eyes were glowing white voids

should be its.

u/OutOfNiceUsernames [+2] fear of last pages (9 hours later)

• it's just that time flows so fast here we that barely any time has passed in the real world.
• It seemed to be a way to be a way to increase
• suddenly seemed to much easier to understand
• two researcher's minds → two researchers' minds

u/torac [+2] (6 hours later)

to be a way to be a way to

u/AKAAkira [+6] (2 days later)

Man, what a whammer. Unlike the end of Arc 1 though, this time Zorian isn't completely cornered; there's a clear way forward in the form of the Key that the matriarch spoke of, so it definitely felt more anticipatory than despairing at the conclusion of the Arc.

About the last chapter, did anyone else notice that Zach's curb-stomping of the aranean webs were kinda foreshadowed? Novelty says it in chapter 23 - that "any mage powerful enough to cast [Mind Blank] is also powerful enough to take on the entire aranean Web all on their lonesome". Which is pretty much what ended up happening.

Also...recently I started throwing in my lot with the "Red Robe is Veyers Boranova" theory. While it's true that Daimen is most likely to be Red Robe in terms of opportunity, having found something in Koth that most likely relates to the Sovereign Gate - he has no motive. He's an adventuring archaeologist, what does he gain from burning Cyoria to the ground? And if he wants to improve himself and keep all that skill once the time loop is done, he doesn't need to come all the way to Cyoria to do it.

Veyers, on the other hand, I've come to realize recently fits the psychological profile of Red Robe surprisingly well. Aside from that "possible fallen noble" thing discussed on chapter 50:

• Veyers was "an asshole" and seems to have a short temper; this fits in with his rough, perhaps even reckless personality displayed (that line he shouted at Quatach-Ichl, for example - "Watch it! That could have killed him! I told you I need him alive!").
• Veyers didn't get to move on to third year of the Academy, implying he's not a very good mage; this explains not just the fact that Red Robe isn't all that competent (crude control of mind magic; relatively unimpressive showing vs Zorian, vs Zach, and vs throwaway students in chapter 26; being clearly treated as a grunt by Quatach-Ichl), but that he's desperate to use the time loops to improve himself in a way he never would ordinarily have (probably blood magic, at the very least improving his physical strength, as well as his quick exit as soon as he realized he no longer had control over the course of things).

If Veyers and Zach even failed out "together", before the time loops started, that might even explain why Zach was hanging out with "Red Robe" at first and why he was in such a good position to backstab Zach.

Though of course, there's still a few unexplained bits. Like whether Veyers actually failed the certification exam before being expelled - the story wasn't explicit on that, though that might still make him desperate to gain a future as a mage if he was barred from any other mage academies. And how he even entered the time loop to begin with, since Zorian's entry should be virtually impossible to repeat, and only now did Zorian and Zach learn about the "admin" feature of the Sovereign Gate.

u/throwawayIWGWPC [+2] (2 days later)

I always thought Veyers Boranova theory was mentioned ironically, but you make a good case that it is a possibility. Looking at Soulkill:

• Quatach-Ichl calls RR a whelp, so it's possible RR is young.
• As you said, RR's aegis was overpowered by several students. When Zorian was holding combat training sessions with his classmates, I don't think his aegis would have had that problem, or maybe just barely. If RR were a competent mage in his forties, I can't see that happening.
• After arguing with Quatach-Ichl, RR tries to read Zach's mind, but Zach punches him in the face. RR's response is rather infantile, slamming Zach's head repeatedly into the ground. Even QI comments on it.
• RR seems familiar enough with Zach to call him a fool for not making better use of the time loop. There might be history/a rivalry between the two.
• RR is described as way too strong for his build. This just might mean he's ridiculously strong for a person, or it might mean that RR is a smallish person—Zach and Zorian's age?

u/thrawnca [+2] Carbon-based biped (16 days later)

If RR were a competent mage in his forties

Or a competent mage who has been looping (much) longer than Zorian. Yeah, this isn't someone who has been diligently practising their magic in every restart.

Furthermore, this is someone who thinks it's worthwhile to keep optimising the invasion over and over even though they don't have demon support and even though Zach is changing things and so the real thing will be quite different, and also even though it's already brilliantly successful, and the primordial summoning will make other property damage irrelevant. Why would he do that, instead of focusing primarily on reconnaisance, or better yet, personal development? Perhaps because he's bitter and twisted and enjoys watching Cyoria burn as thoroughly as possible every month?

And Boranova is a Noble House. Zorian has already discovered that some (not all) Houses might be glad to see Cyoria gone, because it's such a strong supporter of the Crown.

And when RR was directing the artillery spells, he targeted the empty third-year academy residence building (not exactly a tactically important target) in the first barrage. Grudge against the academy, perhaps? "You wouldn't let me into this building, so watch what I'll do to it!"

u/thrawnca [+2] Carbon-based biped (a month later)

Quatach-Ichl calls RR a whelp, so it's possible RR is young.

I tend to agree with the theory, but this particular point is not very compelling. QI is a thousand years old. To him, everyone is a whelp.

u/throwawayIWGWPC [+2] (a month later)

Yeah, but I feel like kids are more whelpish.

u/thrawnca [+2] Carbon-based biped (a month later)

Veyers didn't get to move on to third year of the Academy, implying he's not a very good mage

There may be more to it than this. He didn't fail his certification; he was expelled, after a disciplinary hearing. And Zorian thought to himself things like, "it seemed there were some things that just couldn't be overlooked, even if you were an heir of Noble House Boranova" and "it was a disgrace they hadn't expelled him sooner."

Therefore, Veyers Boranova did something reprehensible. And something serious, because political influence and wealth weren't enough to rescue him from expulsion. This could fit with the fact that RR practises both necromancy and mind magic.

u/thrawnca [+1] Carbon-based biped (a month later)

If Veyers and Zach even failed out "together"

No, the certification exam was months before the loop started.

u/AKAAkira [+1] (a month later)

...

If Veyers and Zach even failed out "together", before the time loops started

I guess I didn't fully explain my thought on that though, since if this actually happened Zach would've needed to somehow be re-admitted to the academy before the school year starts. It'd look unusual, but probably wouldn't be hard with Zach being an archmage at this point.

Not that I know how valid the possibility might be. I just wanted to speculate a possible point of commonality that might have brought on an association between Zach and Veyers, if they didn't have any before.

u/jalapeno_dude [+20] (20 seconds later)

Take that, bot-users!

u/melmonella [+11] Tremble, o ye mighty, for a new age is upon you (8 minutes later)

Yeah! Down with the 'bots!

u/Xtraordinaire [+7] Team Glimglam (16 minutes later)

p-zombies is the new black!

u/-Fender- [+8] (an hour later)

The bot also failed to work on /r/noveltranslations, so I also went ahead and made the post myself. (Link to the post, for anyone interested in the discussion on the chapter happening there.)

u/Green0Photon [+2] Student in Cyoria, Minmay, and Ranvar (3 hours later)

My bot crashes after running it too long and I totally forgot about this story.

Congrats dude.

Seems like I'll only get it every other time. lol

u/None [+5] (5 hours later)

"Unbar the gate"

zorian chapter 55

u/InsaneBranch [+6] (10 hours later)

What if the soulkill was one of the Operators (RR) simply asking the Guardian to disable them in the loop? He could've asked the same for Zorian and Zach, but the Guardian simply said that Operator cannot be forcibly removed.

u/2-4601 [+7] (15 hours later)

On the other hand...

• Zorian never has to worry about Red Robe until he escapes the pocket dimension.
• He can deduce who RR is by anyone mysteriously missing and/or was seen to suddenly vanish one day. If it's someone he knows, then this will be a great deal easier.
• He can check out any old hideouts of RR without fear of retaliation.
• And incidentally, is anyone else reminded of another extradimensional Gate with a formless entity controlling it and conversing with two boys?

u/ggrey7 [+1] (3 days later)

Author is a self-proclaimed FMA fan and judging by his meticulous details, it's probably not a coincidence.

u/AHaskins [+11] (an hour later)

I'm going to make a prediction.

The fact that red robe is anonymous, to me, means that he very definitely is someone we have met. That, coupled with the fact that no one is "missing," indicates to me a high likelihood that the time loop has been recreated each time with an "ignorant" version of red robe (whoever he is).

As far as I can tell, there's only one person with whom Zorian has recently started interacting with in-depth. Someone powerful. Someone immune to mind magic (for no discernable plot-based reason). Someone who's expressions would indicate that he seemed to HATE Zorian in the past, but whom had recently, suddenly, and almost inexplicably become friendly. And it happened almost immediately after Red Robe disappeared.

I said it back when I first read the chapter that had Red Robe in it. I had no idea how it would be possible, but it fit the plot structure too perfectly.

"Somehow," I had said, "Red Robe is Xvim."

--

(Edit: Just reread the relevant chapters - starts at 39. It fits, but only if you assume that for some reason Red Robe delayed exiting for a few loops. Or there's some other explanation for the slight delay in Xvim's change of character. I can think of several explanations, and this is the kind of story that would have one or two little twists to throw off its intended audience.)

u/tyes77 [+16] (2 hours later)

That would be very far of a stretch. without any real evidence to back you up, i will be placing this beside the damien is red robe theory. Just mindless guessing as far as I'm concerned and we know eventually with enough guesses SOMEONE is bound to get it right.

u/None [+6] (4 hours later)

damien is red robe theory

The fact the key is a series of artifacts on another continent sounds right up Damien's alley.

u/AHaskins [+5] (2 hours later)

I'd like to think that I've got at least a semi-fair chain of logic here. Enough to move me out of "wild guess" range (where I would put Damien) and within spitting distance of "a preponderance of evidence."

Any guess will be a reach, even the right one. There would be too many red herrings and false leads. It's just that kind of story.

What, specifically, do you disagree with?

u/Xtraordinaire [+21] Team Glimglam (2 hours later)

If Xvim is RR then it makes no sense for Xvim in ch 1-25 to not mindrape Zorian. Absolutely no sense at all.

RR is NOT someone Zorian has interacted on a regular basis.

u/tyes77 [+10] (2 hours later)

You do know if red robe was Xvim, he would have had Zorian tailed since the first couple restarts. He had himself seen Zorian wild progress through the restarts and he would've done something at the very least. Any way you can explain why Xvim didn't outright deal with Zorian right away or tailed him? I doubt Zorian is the first to join the loop so he could've done the very same thing he did to the arachne but not before mindwiping Zorian.

u/Sailor_Vulcan [+11] Champion of Justice and Reason (2 hours later)

except that xvim never hated zorian. the only reason he was making him do boring shaping exercises every restart was because he couldn't remember making zorian do boring shaping exercises in previous ones. once zorian becomes more skilled at shaping, each new loop after that has xvim trying to find out how skilled zorian actually is, because remember he didn't remember it from the previous loops. Eventually, zorian's shaping skills are so good that xvim ends up thinking that zorian is an imposter, and that's the first time zorian tries to explain the time loop to him. agree that red robe is a prominent character that we already know of. it would probably have had to be someone who had the chance to steal Zach's memories of how he entered the loop and how to use it, as well as getting a soul marker of his own. I doubt it's the caretaker of the novedas, because we haven't even seen that guy yet. early in the story, each loop would start with Zach beating up his caretaker and then running away, or at least that's what i remember being said.

so what recurring character would have a reason to manipulate the ibasan invaders?

"It doesn't matter if your soul can be reincarnated elsewhere if someone mutilates it beyond recognition before it gets there. After all, the soul may be immortal, but no one said it cannot be altered or added to."

quatach-ichl's spell cast early on seems to be responsible for bringing zorian into the time loop, but we don't see him cast that spell on anyone else with them. whatever happened to bring red robe into the time loop should depend on this spell. maybe red robe is a remote controlled construct of quatach-ichl himself. when he cast the spell, he clearly wasn't aware of the time loop, and probably thought Zach was a soul mage. whatever quatach-ichl did must have

1. included both him and zorian into the time loop with Zach
2. altered Zach's soul, or added something to it.
3. copied Zach's soul marker to both himself and to Zorian
4. without knowing about the time loop

This also would explain red robes connection to the ibasan invaders. he was with them all along, but when he found out the true nature of the loop, he was more concerned with escaping the loop then using it to increase his power, because zorian made him think there were many time travelers, and he had already proven that his invasion plan would work in zorian's first loop, provided that zorian and Zach can't follow him out.

u/WriterBen01 [+9] (8 hours later)

The very first invasion is already impossibly well-planned because of information gathered by a time traveler. Zorien has remarked multiple times that the invasion now, after Red Robe has dissapeared, is more brute force than the first time he has experienced it.

In other words, Red Robe existed before Quatach-Ichl made Zorien part of the loop.

u/Kazinski [+4] (4 hours later)

Quatach Ichl is already a remote controlled version of himself (from the phylactery).

I'm pretty sure Red Robe and Quatach Ichl have been in the same room.

u/TimTravel [+2] (19 hours later)

They definitely have, when they crash Zach's party.

u/TimTravel [+4] (19 hours later)

From that description I thought you were going to say Silverlake.

u/tbroch [+2] (20 hours later)

It's a fun theory, but anyone who has been paying attention knows that Red Robe is actually Zorian's ex-classmate, Veyers Boranova.

u/Faust91x [+11] Iteration X (2 hours later)

Zach really sounds so naive, I'm not sure but it would have been nice to mind read him before he understood the full capabilities of Zorian's magic. Good thing Red Robe isn't that great at mind magic, it would be really nasty if he implanted some dangerous compulsion on Zach triggered by someone learning of him or trying to attack him.

I so wish I could have the matriarch's mind magic. Just thinking of the possibilities, implanting compulsions to work harder and focus better, create algorithms to automatically detect bias or emotional issues... mind magic truly is subtle yet extremely powerful.

The time travel was powered by love

Please don't make it like that. This story has been doing great without any unnecessary romance so far!

The gate is barred

Well darn it! This is so exciting, can't wait to see the conclusion to this arc story.

u/Kazinski [+14] (3 hours later)

Please don't make it like that. This story has been doing great without any unnecessary romance so far!

That was just the author being humorous

u/Faust91x [+2] Iteration X (20 hours later)

I hope so. I liked the Harry Potter books until book 5 where Rowling started going all "the power of love" and the last 2 books were so different in tone from the others.

u/Kazinski [+2] (22 hours later)

You don't need to hope, because you just need to read more closely...

It was currently the second day on his self-imposed rest, and he was lying on his bed, reading a rather silly piece of fiction dealing with time travel. It was a book about a man who went three years back into the past to prevent a devastating war and save his lost love. The story was more amusing than Zorian thought it would be when he started reading it, but that was probably just him - the story was supposed to be a romance, not a comedy, it's just that he personally couldn't take it very seriously.

The time travel spell was powered by love, of all things - what kind of magic was that?

u/Faust91x [+2] Iteration X (22 hours later)

You don't need to hope, but you definitely need to read more closely...

Already got that the author is attempting humor rather than foreshadowing but still, have read a lot of great works that ended up ruined by some crappy decision like that.

u/Kazinski [+2] (23 hours later)

There's no chance here. The author makes fun of that trope: it's silly, a romance that uses it seems rather like a comedy, something Zorian can't take seriously (powered by love, of all things), and implies there's no magic involving love, at least time travel magic.

u/WriterBen01 [+10] (8 hours later)

Good thing Red Robe isn't that great at mind magic, it would be really nasty if he implanted some dangerous compulsion on Zach triggered by someone learning of him or trying to attack him.

Like the compulsion to keep a Mind Blank spell up around competent mind mages who would have the power to restore Zach's memories? :O

u/Frommerman [+5] (17 hours later)

Keeping up Mind Blank around competent mind mages who have already shown a willingness to lie to you just seems like a good idea in general, really.

u/Faust91x [+2] Iteration X (20 hours later)

Good one! Though Zach has proved to be smarter than Zorian gives him credit for so can't really blame him for seeking protection from a potentially unscrupulous mind mage. Plus it seems to be the only way he can be hurt barring powerful soul magics.

u/TimTravel [+2] (19 hours later)

Yeah, I want that too.

u/gbear605 [+5] history’s greatest story (36 minutes later)

This makes the situation both better and worse at the same time. No Red Robe to fight, but they do have a bit of an unsolvable problem...

My guess is the key

u/Noumero [+6] Self-Appointed Court Statistician (12 hours later)

Nope, it only got worse. They still have to fight Red Robe, only later, in normal time, complete with collateral damage and permanent death.

They also have no reliable way to identify him.

u/melmonella [+5] Tremble, o ye mighty, for a new age is upon you (13 hours later)

They still have to fight Red Robe, only later, in normal time, complete with collateral damage and permanent death.

That goes both ways, and RR just signed his death certificate by allowing Zack and Zorian to progress their skills as much as they would like.

u/Noumero [+3] Self-Appointed Court Statistician (14 hours later)

Well, yes, I agree. That doesn't mean he will go down peacefully and alone.

u/melmonella [+2] Tremble, o ye mighty, for a new age is upon you (15 hours later)

That doesn't mean he will go down peacefully

He would try

u/Noumero [+2] Self-Appointed Court Statistician (16 hours later)

He would try to go down peacefully? Why?

u/melmonella [+2] Tremble, o ye mighty, for a new age is upon you (16 hours later)

He would try to not go down peacefully, I mean.

u/Noumero [+3] Self-Appointed Court Statistician (17 hours later)

The point is, he has good chances of not going down peacefully. Zorian and Zach, however skilled they are, are not gods. They don't know who Red Robe is. They exit the loop, they wake up in their bodies, and then what? Their best bet is probably to spy on Quatach-Ichl, since Red Robe is likely to approach him with invasion-related information, but that isn't easy at all. If that doesn't work, Red Robe could spend an arbitrary amount of time staying low, commiting unseen atrocities, selling classified information to Eldemar's enemies, building dead man's switches, and so on.

Of course, that's assuming Red Robe won't do a stupid/smart thing and check on Zach at the star of the End.

u/thrawnca [+1] Carbon-based biped (a day later)

Not as much as they would like, unfortunately. The loop will eventually run out of power, and it sounds like it's almost there.

Moreover, there is a certain lich who can still trounce Zach every time. Without getting a scratch.

And that lich is helping to unleash a Primordial.

This ain't gonna be no curb-stomp battle for our protagonist.

u/melmonella [+2] Tremble, o ye mighty, for a new age is upon you (a day later)

there is a certain lich who can still trounce Zach every time. Without getting a scratch.

Zorian can kill him anytime by throwing a coin at him. And there was alrady a mention of some golden flame spell that could damage him, all Zach needs to do is learn it.

u/thrawnca [+1] Carbon-based biped (2 days later)

Hmm. I think the coin wouldn't work so easily in a different context. After Zorian intervened and burned the vampire, whom Quatach-Ichl hated, and Quatach-Ichl casually announced an obligation to hunt him down to satisfy his superiors, Zorian offered to bribe him. In that specific context, QI's reaction was to catch the coin. But if you just randomly threw it at him, he'd probably treat it - rightly - as a threat, and shield himself from it.

u/ketura [+1] Organizer (3 days later)

Does he usually shield? We have enough mentions of the bones being impervious to suggest he gets hit often enough.

u/thrawnca [+1] Carbon-based biped (3 days later)

Maybe. Much more failure-prone, though, if he actually sees the coin as a threat.

u/thrawnca [+1] Carbon-based biped (4 days later)

I just re-read chapter 22, and realised that there's another problem, maybe even bigger than Quatach-Ichl.

The invaders planned to use the planetary alignment to summon hordes of demons. Which didn't work inside the time loop, but once they're back in the real world...

u/Menolith [+3] Unworthy Opponent (13 hours later)

Depending on how the time loop's exit point works, he might be frozen in "real" time just outside of the gate. Zorian's locator spell might also work since now they're all in the same dimension.

And Zack did fight RR off in several occasions, and he's only growing stronger by the reset. Same goes for Zorian's mind magic.

u/Dwood15 [+6] (4 hours later)

I really think that Zorian is going to figure out how to bring others into the time loop. At the very least, I think he's going to end up getting Kirielle into the loop and perhaps Xvim.

u/MultipartiteMind [+3] (4 hours later)

Nice to get closure (for the moment) about Red Robe. I think I'm going to enjoy this (the things taking place after this) more than I would have enjoyed what Zorian was worried about!

(And if they can do it for one, then also for many; 'none' also works, though bleaker. I also absently wonder if there are any plans for Zorian to talk with his more-famous brother at some point, in reality or not. (Not that I'm saying there should be if there aren't.))

u/tactical_retreat [+3] (5 hours later)

I have a mechanical question about how this gate thing works.

Given the contents of this chapter, activating the gate seems like a deliberate conscious decision. To activate the gate, presumably you have to be nearby or something. The gate takes a snapshot of reality and starts the loop.

So when every loop begins, shouldn't the original looper be standing right outside, excluding Zach as the originator?

Seems like this implies that RR is the original, and Zach accidentally got pulled in somehow. The theory that 'the marker is in his bloodline' sounds odd considering how confident everyone is that there is exactly one controller at a time. You would imagine that having happened before if this was the case.

u/Keshire [+8] (5 hours later)

Considering all the researchers fiddling with the gate? Seems likely that someone stumbled over a loophole in activating it. Consider this: they both touched the gate but only Zorian took them to the guardian because he was asked by it. My guess is that mind magic is a key to communicating with the gate.

u/bludvein [+9] (7 hours later)

Rather than mind magic, the chapter made it obvious the ability to sense the marker(personal soul sense) which is required. Zach never learned how to, so he couldn't feel the automated request.

u/tactical_retreat [+5] (5 hours later)

Makes identifying RR easy then, it's the guy who didn't show up to work on the first day of the loop :)

u/Keshire [+3] (5 hours later)

That's what I'm thinking too. Unless this is a red herring, red robe has been removed. So anyone still around isn't him.

u/thrawnca [+2] Carbon-based biped (21 hours later)

Yes, RR's plans have definitely gone awry. He thought that his exit would terminate the loop and wipe all his meaningful opponents, but because the AI controlling it has become confused, they're still around, they can keep looping while they have power, RR can't interfere with them any more, and with root access, they might even get out.

u/throwawayIWGWPC [+2] (a day later)

Maybe they don't have to be present at the gate. Maybe you use the gate to mark yourself, then tell the gate to ramp up the effect. You get to wherever you want to start the loop from and there you start.

u/jkwrites [+3] (13 hours later)

Now that Arc 2 is done, I've been thinking of getting MoL printed. I'm looking at 675 and 750 pages for Arc1 and Arc2, respectively. Suggestions are welcome.

u/Marthinwurer [+4] (16 hours later)

Have you asked permission from the author?

u/jkwrites [+2] (17 hours later)

I do have his permission to produce ebooks. I believe he wouldn't mind me printing a copy for personal use, but you're right, I should ask before actually printing one.

u/nobody103 [+6] (a day later)

I admit your initial comment looked a little alarming to me, because it seemed like you were intending to distribute printed copies of the story to others, and that's kind of not okay with me.

But if it's strictly for personal use, then that's fine.

u/jkwrites [+3] (a day later)

Oh damn, I'm sorry if it seemed that way. Rest assured I only intended to print one copy for myself. I'm probably not going to do that anyway, since there might be difficulties in case you want to publish MoL yourself. Actually I'm going to throw you a PM about it.

u/Xtraordinaire [+7] Team Glimglam (an hour later)

To be honest, I am really not happy with simulation theory. Specifically because it causes a huge cluster-fuck of clash with substance dualism MoL universe so smoothly runs on. Magically waving hand and saying 'turns out time travel is actually possible' breaks fewer things in comparison.

Oh well.

Now that we know Sovereign Gate was in Noveda's possession explains how Zach got in the loop: by virtue of his bloodline.

How does RR start looping? One hypothesis was via blood magic, when Zach got beaten by non-looping-then RR and got blood-magicked for the marker and mind-magicked for the marker operation manual and then memory-wiped. Bonus points: blood magic actually explains RR's affinity to tacky clothes. With that in mind RR could be basically anyone who was more or less capable before the time loop. That excludes both Boranova (was a silly theory to begin with) and Daimen (he simply won't be hostile to Zach if they had ever met)

Speaking of Daimen, I suspect the theme would be Zorian making peace with all of his family. He started being annoyed with them, now he's changed his opinion on Kirielle, Fortov and his mother (IIRC?). I guess he'll need Daimen's help to find some of those artifacts and in the process they will become friends, ^and ^^grow ^^^a ^^^^pair ^^^^of ^^^^wings. Time travel is powered by the magic of friendship hue hue hue.

u/cretan_bull [+18] (3 hours later)

it causes a huge cluster-fuck of clash with substance dualism MoL universe so smoothly runs on

Can you please elaborate on this? I haven't observed any glaring inconsistencies between the operation of the Sovereign Gate as described and the characteristics of the MoL universe we are familiar with.

u/Kazinski [+15] (3 hours later)

I agree. Time travel isn't as feasible as a simulation with respect to energy costs, and the simulation bypasses the need to deal with discrepancies between parts of the universe that are looped and parts that aren't.

And the triangle diagram wouldn't work without the pocket dimension theory.

u/UNWS [+10] (2 hours later)

His mother? I know fortov and kirielle but what changed his mind about his mother.

u/ggrey7 [+1] (3 days later)

Now things are really complicated. The primordial may have been a red herring all along since it's the interaction of pocket dimensions that really stop the time loop from going longer. Therefore, it might be that Zach was NOT the original looper but rather got in accidentally via his bloodline interacting with the Gate.

So what if RR was the original looper who activated the Gate? He might have done so for his own purposes (Cyoria invasion).

u/bumbiedumb [+2] The Polity (2 days later)

The security for the time magic research facility is pretty hilarious. Love to learn abit more about the purpose of the research. Somehow Zorian missed gathering information of the gate from both researcher, i mean they both studied the artifact for a long time prolly would have some knowledge on the artifact.

On the other note, i'm so looking forward to the worldbuilding post coming up. A friendly advise on how to start the ball rolling is with the class -> teachers -> curriculum -> school before expending out. This helps adding flavor to story's characters with will make the character more relatable. It would also give us a clearer view of Cyorian's formal education and how it's cirriculum was being taught.

u/MarkArrows [+4] (an hour later)

Couple things to contemplate: The time loop didn't shut down after the controller left. Was that because the designer didn't bother to shut it down, or that it couldn't be shut down that easily?

The Soul Kill spell - there's a direct link that the creator of the time loop had considered the safety of the controller. Which means very bad things if we consider barring the gate as not something natural but rather artificially included by the creator as a safety.

u/vallar57 [+14] Unseen University: Faculty of High-Energy Magic (an hour later)

The time loop didn't shut down after the controller left. Was that because the designer didn't bother to shut it down, or that it couldn't be shut down that easily?

Nah, it's just programming stuff: the trigger to shut down the loop is when "there is no Conrtrollers left inside", not when "a Controller leaves". I can actually see a few reasons to make that trigger instead of the other, but in general, they are identical for intended use of the Gate, so there doesn't have to be an actual reason for the choice of a trigger. Consider our protagonists lucky)

u/Izeinwinter [+15] (7 hours later)

It's better design because it means it shuts down gracefully if the controller manages to get themselves destroyed while looping.

u/ricree [+2] (5 days later)

Best guess is that the "leave loop" invokes the normal "end current loop" routine to clean up the pocket universe. That part includes a check for controllers, and sets up a new restart if the controller is still there.

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