30 KiB
Best stories for introducing rational/rationalist literature to a typical layperson/the general public?
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Author: u/Sailor_Vulcan Champion of Justice and Reason*
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URL: https://www.reddit.com/r/rational/comments/4otta1/best_stories_for_introducing_rationalrationalist/
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Score: 22
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Created: 2016-06-19T15:48:47
Post:
What stories do you think are best at introducing rational/rationalist literature to a typical layperson/the general public?
This is what I've come up with so far:
Strong Female Protagonist
Schooled in Magic
The Martian
Metropolitan Man
Shadows of the Limelight
Mother of Learning
Animorphs: the Reckoning
Short Stories of Ted Chiang
What things on this list do you think should be added or taken out? I'm probably missing a lot of them.
Comments:
u/seventythree [+20] (2 hours later)
The book version of The Martian is more rationalist than the movie. I strongly recommend it.
u/thecommexokid [+5] (10 hours later)
I enjoyed the audiobook immensely.
u/Menolith [+2] Unworthy Opponent (a day later)
I'd probably recommend the written version.
The log entry format felt a bit awkward, and most of the life support math went over my head when the numbers all blended together.
u/t3tsubo [+17] (2 hours later)
The Martian is a great gateway/intro into the type of stories many would consider rational.
If your friend is familiar with the Naruto-verse, Waves Arisen is also a decent rational fic.
In general, most classic sci-fi short stories and mid length stories (see: Asimov) are very rational. A more little known one would be The Metamorphosis of the Prime Intellect, although that is quite graphic and probably not for your average reader who may be turned off by that stuff.
u/HomotoWat [+9] (11 hours later)
Having read The Metamorphosis of Prime Intellect, I wouldn't describe it as especially rational. The universe it presents doesn't hold up to much scrutiny, and the "moral" of the story contradicts its actual plot. It's one of the eminent singulatarian pieces of fiction, but It's not really rational or even that well written. There is (or was) supposed to be a sequel to the book which retcons the entire ending (as it should), so I think even the author agrees with this to some extent.
u/4t0m [+38] Chaos Legion (an hour later)
I kind of think it has to be The Metropolitan Man. Of the things you've listed it has the best combination of being clearly rational/rationalist; being well written on a technical level; being accessible in subject matter, length, format, and completion; and being generally very good.
u/MonstrousBird [+15] (6 hours later)
I would say definitely NOT Metropolitan Man because of the ending. I can see plenty of relatively rational people saying 'if this is what it means to be rational I'd rather not be'... (kinds including me, tbh)
u/alexanderwales [+19] Time flies like an arrow (7 hours later)
FWIW, I partially agree with this. I still get a trickle of reviews in for that story and there's a substantial number of people who immensely dislike it, either because it's more deconstruction than reconstruction, because it has what might be viewed as a downer ending, because it violates a character that they like, it's unpleasantly dark, etc.
... but with that said, I don't have a recommendation for what I would pick in its place. Ideally you would want something that was technically well written, thoughtful, moving, accessible, tightly plotted, and inoffensive, all while clearly hewing to what our community would clearly define as rational. I don't think I've read that story yet, and I definitely haven't written it.
u/Sailor_Vulcan [+7] Champion of Justice and Reason (8 hours later)
Really? If that's the case, then is it even possible for someone to write a story like that? I'm wondering if part of the problem is that there might be a contradiction between the "what our community would clearly define as rational" criteria and the criteria of it being inoffensive. Maybe any rational novel is going to disagree with the public on things that they strongly believe in, and that means that rational fic is offensive to them in general? Then again, what about Strong Female Protagonist? And as for works you've written, why not Shadows of the Limelight?
I think maybe the issue with the ending of metropolitan man might be the readers' scope insensitivity causing them to see killing superman as entirely unjustified, no matter what the circumstances, even if it means probably saving the world. So if you wanted to make it more palatable to the public, maybe have Rex imagining the screams and destruction of the world that would happen if he didn't kill Superman. And portray Lex Luthor as someone more sympathetic who is being forced to make a hard decision that no one should ever have to make. I mean really, he killed Superman and he somehow he didn't feel unbearable agonizing guilt over it. It was easy for him to make that decision. Even knowing that it was the right thing to do under the circumstances shouldn't have been enough for that unless he's a psychopath (or partially psychopathic). You could have characterized Lex Luthor as someone who's been forced to make hard choices like this all his life, and so he's become somewhat used to such hard choices and knows how to make them right and how to ignore the pain of it, rather than simply being less empathetic.
u/alexanderwales [+7] Time flies like an arrow (11 hours later)
I'm more trying to say ... every story is going to fail for some subset of readers. You could introduce someone to Metropolitan Man and they would immediately say "Yes, please, more like that". So you have to know your audience and pick whichever one you think they'd most enjoy.
What I want is a story that works for everyone, and though I think it would be a difficult thing to write, I do think it's possible. (Personally, I write stories that I'd want to read rather than stories I think other people would want to read.)
u/AmeteurOpinions [+2] Finally, everyone was working together. (11 hours later)
Someone else mentioned A Bluer Of White, and I think it'd be a perfect fit. It's a short but densely packed story from a popular universe with high-powered magic, high stakes, sound judgment, cool exploitation of powers, exotic romance, and an anxious but optimistic ending.
u/RolandsVaria [+3] (13 hours later)
Except for the whole attempted rape scene, I think that might turn people off.
u/Roxolan [+1] Head of antimemetiWalmart senior assistant manager (18 hours later)
It's a fairly dark take on a fairly light setting. This would be a turn-off for people not used to the oddities of fanfiction. HPMOR sometimes faces the same complaint even though the contrast is much milder.
u/trekie140 [+1] (a day later)
Who was your target audience for Metropolitan Man and why did you think the story would appeal to them? I ask out of curiosity because I did not like the story, but it clearly was not meant for me.
u/alexanderwales [+4] Time flies like an arrow (a day later)
I was the target audience. I was writing a Superman story that I would want to read. On that criteria, at least, I succeeded.
u/Putnam3145 [+6] (12 hours later)
Ideally you would want something that was technically well written, thoughtful, moving, accessible, tightly plotted, and inoffensive, all while clearly hewing to what our community would clearly define as rational.
I think Pokémon: The Origin of Species might get close to that?
u/alexanderwales [+3] Time flies like an arrow (a day later)
Yeah, I do too. That and Animorphs: The Reckoning. Though I'd prefer something that was complete.
u/Dwood15 [+2] (22 hours later)
Mother of learning is a good start. I've had success with it already.
u/CouteauBleu [+2] We are the Empire. (a day later)
Ideally you would want something that was technically well written, thoughtful, moving, accessible, tightly plotted,
Oh, you mean, like Animorphs: The Reck-
inoffensive
... Never mind :(
u/TK17Studios [+2] Author of r!Animorphs: The Reckoning (2 days later)
"offensive" is a compliment I've not heard before.
u/CouteauBleu [+2] We are the Empire. (2 days later)
Well, it kind of has a little girl carving her eyes out with a knife, so I guess you deserved it?
u/TK17Studios [+2] Author of r!Animorphs: The Reckoning (2 days later)
u/trekie140 [+2] (22 hours later)
As someone who does not like The Metropolitan Man at all, even the early chapters I didn't find particularly well written, I'd like an explanation as to why so many people like it so much. It's been recommended on this page more than anything else, so I'd like to know what I'm missing.
u/Kishoto [+2] (2 days later)
Chiming in late here but I think it may be easier if you list some of the reasons/things you didn't like about it. I, for one, enjoyed it because it scienced up Superman in a way that I personally have never seen done before. It also isn't from Superman's perspective (another rarity in superhero fiction) so we can see the effects from a normal person's standpoint. Reading the Metropolitan Man made me feel the way I would imagine I would've felt if I lived inside Metropolis when the Man of Steel came around, with a lot less insider knowledge obviously.
Overall, it's an interesting take on a popular concept. I didn't fancy the ending myself, because I'm a fanboy, but from a cynical, rationalist perspective, I understood it. And that's honestly something that happens with a lot less frequency. It's easy to find endings you like; it's much harder to find endings you actively disliked but can see as being the best option from the character's perspective.
u/creatureofthewood [+12] (a day later)
Looks like we're all contrarians and no one's going to bother defending the obvious choice (no one's even mentioned it, except comments saying why it wouldn't be a good choice, which is a sure sign that it's actually the obvious intuitive choice or they wouldn't even have brought it up in the first place.)
So okay, I guess I'll be the defender of the obvious: The best introductory story is HPMOR: the story which I'm pretty sure introduced the vast majority of us to the genre. I'd wager over 30% of this subreddit, and probably over 60% of it's founding members who were here from the beginning were hpmor inspired.
Hpmor may not be the one with the most broad appeal, but it is certainly the one which will best predict whether they're likely to appreciate the sorts of stories on /r/rational. I feel like if someone doesn't like hpmor then they just don't really get the genre. I think Yudkowsky is the current top writer by the standard of the "Rational" genre, for giving us standards we didn't even fully realize we had.
I'll happily add to the chorus of Ted Chiang (particularly Exhalation) as the top story when operating under the broader standards of fiction in general while yet still falling under the genre of "rational". (Bearing in mind, that simply by being sci-fi Chiang is already rather at the margins as per the standards of general fiction)
But the standards are different between genres. Exhalation is a better sci/fi fantasy than hpmor. hpmor is a better rational work than Exhalation. (Analogy: Lord of The Rings is a far better fantasy than Harry Potter. But Harry Potter is a far better story, by the standards of fiction in general, than Lord of the Rings. And HG Wells wrote better sci fi than Verne, even if Verne wrote better stories by the standards of his day - although I think the modern reader prefers Wells because modern tastes appreciate the sort of worldbuilding that Wells broke new innovative ground on much more.)
For instance, good sci fi / fantasy isn't about the things that make good literature, at least it wasn't until sci fi became so popular that the landscape of fiction started shifting. For instance, before sci fi, world-building played no part in how fiction was evaluated, despite the fact that mythology and fantasy works did in fact worldbuild, I bet it wasn't until sci-fi hyperspecialized in worldbuilding that worldbuilding was a thing that people identified. If you don't care about worldbuilding, if you think it's masturbatory or silly or something (a lot of people do!) you don't really get sci fi. So a lot of amazing sci fi was not considered to be good writing at first.
Same with good rational works - plot and world-building aren't necessarily the point. When you read hpmor certain things - which are marks of good literature in general (just like worldbuilding is a mark of good literature in general, but until sci fi it was more an understated, implicit sort of virtue) become way more salient because hpmor hyperspecializes in them. If you don't like munchkin, hacking, impertinence, impatience with the status quo, breaking invisible rules that the other characters don't realize exist they have been following, hyper-logical people that are aware that they're hyper logical and openly ruminate on their own internal states at the reader, even the "preachy" exposition of concentrated "morals" (except it's often epistemic "morals"), then you don't get the rational genre.
HPMOR has clearly broken some sort of new ground here, and it's the work which currently best illustrates where that new ground is, and that new ground is what the genre is defined by.
u/4t0m [+4] Chaos Legion (2 days later)
In a way you're right, and I wish you had posted this earlier so that more people read this comment, and hopefully gave you some upvotes. One thing I'll note though is that we may be talking about different things here. HPMOR may be the best piece of rational fiction, and might be the best at showing people that there is this amazing new type of fiction they've never encountered before, but it's undeniable that some people really passionately hate it.
It may be that HPMOR is the best introductory text for sorting people who will love rational fic from those who won't, but not the best go-to text for introducing random people, if the goal is to use the story that makes it most likely that they will want to read more, or to use the story that has the highest chance of increasing the size of the rational fiction community.
I think this post is about the latter goal, whereas your comment is geared a bit more towards the former.
P.S. Your post wasn't too long. I was interested to read the whole thing, and the concern someone raised about bundling too many claims is a wrong one. Upvotes aren't for agreement, so there's no reason making a bunch of claims should stop people from doing so. Thoughtful comments like this are the sorts of things we should want more of, and should want more people to read even if they are likely to disagree, since it is at the very least clearly advancing the conversation. If someone disagrees with one of the points in a long comment, well, that's why we have replies.
u/creatureofthewood [+2] (3 days later)
I mean even for the former goal, doesn't the work which actually introduced most of us to /r/rational (in fact wasn't HPMOR a major factor in the reason /r/rational was created? I think that it was...) have the most proven track record in introducing people / gathering a cult following?
Definitely true that some people passionately hate it. Are those people actually good writers though? (The while point of this is to generate good fiction for me to read right?)
PS thanks :)
u/4t0m [+4] Chaos Legion (3 days later)
I think maybe you are missing part of the distinction I was making between the two goals. HPMOR did a really good job of making us want to read more rational fiction, but it may not do a good job of making the average reader want to read more rational fiction, which I think is more the question posed by the OP.
Edit: Or maybe you are saying you don't want to grow the community by adding people who wouldn't like HPMOR?
u/TennisMaster2 [+1] (a day later)
Looks like we're all contrarians and no one's going to bother defending the obvious choice (no one's even mentioned it, except comments saying why it wouldn't be a good choice, which is a sure sign that it's actually the obvious intuitive choice or they wouldn't even have brought it up in the first place.)
Sailor Vulcan has been keeping up with the discussion and editing the list accordingly. HPMoR was eliminated as a good choice, and thus struck from the list.
u/Towerowl [+0] (2 days later)
Too long, did not read... Just kiding, i've read your post, but it really is too long: i cann't up or down arrow it since there are too many topics boarded in the same post. Promoting HPMOR instead of better works will likely attract immature readers not seing it's flaws ( which is fine ) and repulse more allert readers (which is less fine). HPMOR was enjoyable because at the time we couldn't find much rational read. Hopefully now we got better. There is no point promotting inferior work just because historically it sparked this subreddit.
u/xamueljones [+10] My arch-enemy is entropy (2 hours later)
I recommend Exhalation by Ted Chiang because it's a good short story which perfectly describes what it's like to be a scientist coming up with a hypothesis about the world and testing it. He also has written many other short stories where he changes something about the world and takes it to its logical conclusion which is a major component of rational fiction. I mean instead of rational protagonists, he writes rational worlds.
Also as a short story, if someone who may not be willing to spend too much of their time trying something new, they can spend only a small amount of time without worrying too much about the 'waste'. Finally it's original fiction which is a good starting point for those who don't want to give fanfiction a try.
u/None [+27] (an hour later)
HPMOR really doesn't feel to be a great example of rational or rationalist literature. In addition, its immense length and the LessWrong detours and Harry being annoying make it less digestible to "the general public" imo.
u/trekie140 [+9] (22 hours later)
HPMOR was the perfect introduction for me because I found it to be unique, particularly the protagonist. I thought of Harry the same way I thought of Sherlock, Ender, and Lelouch; someone who isn't normal and arguably isn't sane but that's what makes them interesting beyond how intelligent they are. It helped that I thought the story was self aware of how unusual the protagonist was, and also because I had never read LessWrong before so I found Harry's speeches to be educational.
u/None [+12] (a day later)
HPMOR is good for the kind of person that enjoys feeling clever, like me. I wouldn't recommend it to people who are overly suspicious about rationality or rational fiction, because of its flaws.
u/TennisMaster2 [+8] (6 hours later)
I don't know how to say this kindly, so I'll be bald in saying that I don't think Luminosity is written well enough to serve as an introductory work. As I said in another comment, the introductory work should set a good first impression, and so should have no faults on a technical level.
u/Agnoman [+4] (12 hours later)
Animorphs: The Reckoning?
u/Dwood15 [+4] (22 hours later)
Mother of learning was my intro. Ive introduced another person to it, and they liked it. Not a ton of people love fanfiction, so Mother of Learning is a start. Brandon Sandersons series are all very rational even if the main characters aren't.
u/TK17Studios [+6] Author of r!Animorphs: The Reckoning (a day later)
Brandon Sanderson's series are emphatically not rational. They are so, so bad on the axis of rationality.
u/ketura [+3] Organizer (2 days later)
Hmm. I haven't read all of Sanderson's works, but Mistborn had a fantastically built magic system, and I don't recall any glaringly obvious irrational character gaffes. It has been a while since I've read it, though.
u/TK17Studios [+3] Author of r!Animorphs: The Reckoning (2 days later)
I've ranted about his stuff elsewhere, so I'll leave a case study rather than a long-winded thing. I'll grant that it may be unfair to judge his whole corpus on the three things I've read:
The climax of Elantris requires an entire magical industry full of bona fide geniuses and experts to fail to apply a literally fundamental principle of their whole magic system, and instead all die and go extinct over hundreds of years until some upstart has a blindingly obvious insight after reading an old introductory primer of that same magic system.
This is played straight. Written with a straight face. Whatever—mixed metaphors can't even do it justice. I was actually confused when I got to the end of the book, because I kept waiting for it to start making sense.
u/4t0m [+2] Chaos Legion (2 days later)
If you ever feel like it, I'd be interested in reading your rants if you have a link on hand. I've become something of a fan of your reviews/analyses.
That said, and without disputing your thesis, I think the Elantris example is particularly bad, and it was his first published novel.
u/TynamM [+1] (5 years later)
Elantris is considered notably his worst work, though. Compare to the much more recent The Emperor's Soul, in the same world, which features a reasonably rational protagonist with deeply human motivations exploiting a far more interesting magic system.
I also think Sanderson is a terrible example of rationalist fiction, in that he's a mainstream fantasy author whose work isn't intentionally rationalist and doesn't remotely match the style of content we usually mean by rationalist fiction. An on ramp should point people into our subculture, or it hasn't accomplished the purpose we're talking about. Sanderson doesn't, at all.
But judging him by Elantris is unduly harsh. The magic system in Mistborn is so consistent, after reading book one I correctly predicted two powers not seen until book two just by drawing a periodic table. And the characters treat it appropriately.
u/TBestIG [+8] Every second of quibbling is another dead baby (an hour later)
HPMOR might not en the best entry to the subject, it was enjoyable but felt preachy on occasion and was more focused on teaching than providing an entertaining storyline. That works better as a second or third story, to get them more into the genre.
u/Farmerbob1 [+3] Level 1 author (a day later)
A lot of Asimov's short stories. For instance, The Last Question.
David Brin has also written some fairly rational works.
Eric Flint's 1632 series and most of the anthologies associated with it are also rather rational.
None of these are rationalist though.
EDIT - now that I think about it, I'd strike 'The Last Question' from the list above. The ending is definitely a Deus ex Machina. It's a good thinking story though.
u/TennisMaster2 [+2] (17 hours later)
The Cambrist and Lord Iron? I have yet to read it, but agree that for introductory purposes the shorter and sweeter the better.
Perhaps "The Fable of the Dragon-Tyrant," though I think it will send the message that all ration fiction is moralistic.
u/Adamantium9001 [+2] United Federation of Planets (2 days later)
It might be more transhumanistic than rational, but I can't not recommend "Grownups" by Alicorn. I admit, however, that The Martian (the book, not the movie) is a better choice if the potential recruitee is okay with novel-length works.
u/b_sen [+2] (6 days later)
I think you're much better off if you know your target reader's tastes in literature and other media outside rational(ist) or not, so that you can pick something more likely to appeal to them in particular. (If you also know how inclined they are to try things outside their established tastes, even better.) Highly technical hard sci-fi survival against unforgiving nature? The Martian. Supernatural romance with plot beyond the romance? Luminosity. Fandom of a particular work? Find its rational fics if they exist. Not up for long novels? Pick a short story (collection) instead.
Sometimes you do have (or want) to go generic, but that's often not the best option precisely because it limits the specificity with which you can model your audience. There's a reason even huge companies sometimes make ads targeted to very specific groups.
u/Green0Photon [+4] Student in Cyoria, Minmay, and Ranvar (an hour later)
Don't forget worm.
Unsong maybe. It's irrational rational.
u/vakusdrake [+3] (5 hours later)
It's good but i'm not really sure it would prepare them for other rational/rationalist works, so not a introductory work per-say.
u/Green0Photon [+1] Student in Cyoria, Minmay, and Ranvar (5 hours later)
Which one? Worm I would definitely include. If you're talking about unsong then I'd probably agree.
u/vakusdrake [+3] (9 hours later)
I certainly like unsung quite a bit, but for one it has a rather non-standard narrative, it's kind of rationally irrational. It's not really that far into the story so far, which to me docks it some points as a intro text.
Overall I just think it's to far of left field in to many ways to really serve as an introduction to the rationalist genre.As for what I'd recommend I'd actually say a bluer shade of white: It's really good , it never slows down its pace that I recall, it's easy to read and quite short. Plus it delves into transhumanist stuff which is pretty genre typical. All things I think make for a good intro story for the genre, I would also say the same about the last christmas. I generally think for a intro text it's probably best to stick to easy to get through short work to get them hooked, or at least that's my intuition.
Of course depending on someone's personality you might just start them right off with HPMoR and that has worked for me at least twice (plus it was the work I personally got started on [though this was just by stumbling on it by chance, I then worked through the rest of Yudkowsky's fiction before getting into the broader genre]). Of course as mentioned elsewhere in this thread it has problems for many people though others are absolutely riveted by it.
u/Sailor_Vulcan [+1] Champion of Justice and Reason (8 hours later)
Why not Unsong?
u/alexanderwales [+10] Time flies like an arrow (10 hours later)
Unsong isn't rational. To quote Scott:
It constantly astounds me how many people expect a story where the number eight gets taken down for repairs to be rational.
I think some of the negative comments on the story have been a result of people coming in with the wrong expectations of what it's going to be.
u/TennisMaster2 [+5] (6 hours later)
Worm isn't written well enough. The introductory work should set a good first impression, and so should have no faults on a technical level. Maybe after it's edited.
u/None [+10] (7 hours later)
[deleted]
u/TennisMaster2 [+4] (7 hours later)
... a really low bar.
You're right, of course. The perfect height for children. Bed-time story, like. Ease 'em into it nice and gentle.
u/AugSphere [+4] Dark Lord of Corruption (12 hours later)
If you're searching for an introduction to rational/rationalist fiction, then the candidates should have being rational as one of their most immediately striking features, shouldn't they? Metropolitan Man and Bluer Shade of White showcase it clearly. As for Worm, I get the feeling that Worm is considered rational mostly by people who deliberately went looking for reasons to call it rational because they prefer to think of it that way. Worm is good, don't get me wrong, but it's a noncentral, barely representative example of a rational/rationalist fiction. The traits are just too subtle: they're there if you go looking for them (and are willing to cut wildbow some slack for his feathered magical plot fairy and phlebotinium conflict generators), but as an introduction it sucks.
u/TennisMaster2 [+1] (12 hours later)
I'll assume you found it convenient to say that as a reply to my comment. Just in case there's confusion, though, I should mention that I agree with Amit and wrote the above comment with levity. I do not recommend somehow crafting Worm into a rational gymnastics bar that can read bed-time stories to children.
u/memoriesofthesea [+2] (12 hours later)
Yeah, I'm not sure Worm counts as ratfic. It's a well thought exploration of the genre, but lacks major viewpoint characters that make use of 'rationalist' tools.
u/Green0Photon [+5] Student in Cyoria, Minmay, and Ranvar (6 hours later)
IMO it's the first arc and the timeskip at the end that are bad. It's my top book of all time. The first arc isn't even that bad either.
I dunno, it's your list, not mine. I just personally think that Worm is one of the best introductions.
BTW if you end up including HPMOR then include this. It's a revision of the first four chapters and it drastically improves the quality of the beginning of the book.
u/Sailor_Vulcan [+1] Champion of Justice and Reason (27 days later)
Question: Should I add "Three Worlds Collide" to this list? What about "The Sword of Good"?