19 KiB
Looking for RT(HSF|HF) where the answer is "full Von Neumann, bitches"
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Author: u/seylerius Lord Inquisitor*
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URL: https://www.reddit.com/r/rational/comments/4piay6/looking_for_rthsfhf_where_the_answer_is_full_von/
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Score: 14
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Created: 2016-06-23T18:38:08
Post:
I want protagonists that go full Von Neumann. I want protagonists facing opposition that's bullshit and assymetric enough that the only answer is to respond by breaking the setting themselves. Strap a rocket to the [anti-]hero's back, grab hold of the exponential power curve, and hold on tight. The only answer to a sufficiently bullshit OP opposition is to become bullshit OP yourself, and I want protagonists that recognize this and avoid being curbstomped by becoming a BESRMoW.
Because really, who wouldn't want to be a Brutally Efficient Self-Replicating Mechanism of War, if they're facing something sufficiently bullshit?
Examples include:
- Any Worm fic where Taylor (optionally through teaming up with Amy) builds better monsters (and preferably monster-production facilities—let's go Zerg on that shit)
- Planetary Annihilation Commander fiction
- You get the idea.
Comments:
u/narfanator [+9] (3 hours later)
"Tengenn Toppa Gurren Lagaan" is kinda this. It's decently, although not completely, rational, and while it isn't Von Neumann-based exponential, it is pretty exponential.
It's also all-around pretty amazeballs, and you'll know if you like it by ep 3.
u/seylerius [+1] Lord Inquisitor (3 hours later)
I'll check it out. Someone had recommended it to me as one of the few things likely capable of dealing with [those things] (#s "omnicidal space whales"), so my interest is piqued.
u/None [+3] (a day later)
[deleted]
u/FeepingCreature [+2] GCV Literally The Entire Culture (2 days later)
That's what "exponential" is, parameter in the exponent. The functions with fixed exponents are called "polynomial".
u/khafra [+2] (4 days later)
Perhaps he meant "forget exponential, the growth rate of this shit is non-recursively enumerable."
u/narfanator [+2] (8 hours later)
You keep using that phrase (the spoiler'd one) but I don't know what it means. It just links back to this post.
u/seylerius [+2] Lord Inquisitor (9 hours later)
Spoilers act a little like links, but aren't. That's why they link back to the post. It's a reference to the final boss in Worm.
u/narfanator [+2] (a day later)
Oh! Well, I feel silly now. I guess I don't think of those as VN machines, since .
u/Restinan [+3] (a day later)
Those were given as an example of something that's bullshit enough that you should go VN machine to beat them, not as things that are themselves VN machines.
u/scruiser [+2] CYOA (18 hours later)
If you are on a desktop browser, text appears blacked out and you can hover your mouse over to see it. This acts as a way of hiding spoiler. If you are on a mobile browser, it just shows up as a link. Reddit has not implemented a single common way of implementing spoiler protected text, so every subreddit uses their own method which may or may not work properly across all browsers. In /r/rational's case, they manipulate some of the way text gets linked in order to create spoiler text.
u/waylandertheslayer [+6] (a day later)
The Waves Arisen is this, but you've probably already read it. spoiler
u/seylerius [+1] Lord Inquisitor (a day later)
Yep, that one's fun.
u/scruiser [+7] CYOA (4 hours later)
Any Worm fic where Taylor (optionally through teaming up with Amy) builds better monsters (and preferably monster-production facilities—let's go Zerg on that shit)
It sounds like you have heard of it already... Amelia. Jack Slash succeeds in getting Amelia to break her limits... and her and Taylor team and go all out. We are talking multiple Endbringer fights, multiple original Endbringer, literally inventing the zerg, recruiting enough Tinkers to out tinker Toybox, and enough plotting to out plot Cauldron (well not exactly that last one). The fights are pretty epic. On the other hand, in between the fights, there is a ton of slice of life antics that kind of drag on, especially towards the later half of the story, and a few original characters, one of which I think is moderately annoying, some of which really irritated some readers. Also, the author intentionally plays with Fridge Horror with the way some of the characters use their powers. Not quite this bad, but imagine if Perfect Lionheart had the self awareness to realize what sociopaths his characters were and then gradually left hints to the audience. Finally, the author also mimics Wildbow's shtick of portraying complex scenes from biased character's viewpoint, there are several parts that may seem like bashing, even if you later realize the context and that the other character had a good point. It's super long, but I would say it was fun and had a satisfying climax, even if it dragged in some places.
For a non worm fanfic... Have you seen Neon Genesis Evangelion? To grimderp for you? Try Shinji and the Warhammer 40K. The author claims the premise is what if Shinji just got a warhammer 40k miniature set and books before canon, although its more like Shinji teaches himself borderline precog levels of planning and observation. It avoids turning into a stomp fic because the Angels adapt to him using the AT field in diverse ways, and several other factions are changed as well. Its an illustration of how "If you give Frodo a lightsaber, give Sauron the Deathstar" can both drive an awesome story, and the limitations of this concept as the story and plot gets drowned out under the sheer weight of mecha-sized chainsaw swords and mad science and psychic powers bullshit and multiple diablos ex machinas showing up to keep things even. Be warned also that the story is unfinished, at near the climax, and the author has only posted one or two additional snippets over the past 4 years. Also, the over-the-topness I think makes the author kind of regret writing some of it, so it may never get revised or finished...
Edit: One more I forgot... not so much von neumann in the story, but rather a flashback piece as the Doctor tries to explain to a companion the sheer scale of the time war. http://archiveofourown.org/works/471497/chapters/815855
u/narfanator [+2] (8 hours later)
Straight up, Shinji/40k leveled up my meditation practice. The description of thoughts like butterflies... it's a damn good one.
u/seylerius [+1] Lord Inquisitor (5 hours later)
Pity the Shinji story isn't finished; I really prefer things that either are finished, or have a decent chance of becoming so. And, yeah, Amelia is a favorite of mine -- to the point that I'm considering pushing things partially in that direction when I pass through Worm on a jumpchain I'm planning to write.
I've never seen NGE. How is it? A little on the grimderp side, rather than just grimdark?
u/scruiser [+5] CYOA (5 hours later)
I've never seen NGE. How is it? A little on the grimderp side, rather than just grimdark?
Without spoilers (I will spoil if you want though)... For the original series we don't actually see a lot of stuff going on off screen, we just see things from the Shinji's (the mecha pilot) perspective. So possible interpretations in fanfic and fanon of some key characters behind the scenes range from rational, but utterly ruthless and with some metaphysical bizarre goals; to somewhat irrational but actually reasonably ethical in their long-term goals given the circumstances humanity was in, to irrational in both their goals and their methods, to pants on their head retarded how did they even get a conspiracy started in the first place levels of stupid.
As for the show itself, it actually has a very clever justification for a humaniod shape to their mecha and several clever justifications for why they need kids as their pilots (1 or 2 of them were only partially true/in-universe misinformation). The main characters are actually realistic for a bystander thrown into the cockpit, an ace pilot wannabe, and a aloof emotionless girl (as in they are all deeply traumatized and damaged in unique ways relating to their characters). On the other hand, a lot of things are unoptimal from the perspectives we get, and might be irrational even given the informatino the behind the scenes players have... I think only one or two wallbangers though.
I will say that from what I've heard of the remake (? possible sequels via time-loop or such) movies there are some seriously stupid things once they diverge from canon. They main character, Shinji, gets the cathartic going-all-out moment that all the fanfic writers want to give him and it goes horribly for reasons outside his control. Then several reasonably intelligent characters all blame him and refuse to give him critical information for really stupid reasons.
u/redrach [+2] (a day later)
Since you mentioned Planetary Annihilation Commander fiction in your OP, here's a link to a story like that (just Total Annihilation instead of PA) by the author of the Shinji & WH40k story.
It's usually more silly comedy than a rational fanfic, though.
u/redrach [+4] (3 hours later)
Time Braid
u/nerdguy1138 [+2] GNU Terry Pratchett (4 days later)
I don't care what the internet thinks, I liked Time Braid.
u/seylerius [+1] Lord Inquisitor (4 hours later)
Lolyep.
Seriously, although no one quite goes full self-replicator, the exponential curve gets climbed quite well.
u/Samwise210 [+5] (14 hours later)
No links, on mobile.
Commander by Drich
Faith In Superior Firepower by Faith
Reverse Engineering For Fun and Profit by Tikitau
Escalation is the Name of the Game by Fusou
Devestation Comes in Big Packages by torroar
When In Doubt Blame the Eldar by Blackhole1
All Planetary Annihilation SIs of varying quality and rationality.
u/FuguofAnotherWorld [+3] Roll the Dice on Fate (18 hours later)
I'm enjoying all of them at the moment, apart from Faith which I dropped while she was on mars. Did it get better?
u/seylerius [+1] Lord Inquisitor (a day later)
Love those. Got 'em all on my watchlist on SV, since I'm caught up.
u/DataPacRat [+8] Amateur Immortalist (an hour later)
Possibly not quite the right medium, but does [Pun-Pun](http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Pun-Pun_(3.5e_Optimized_Character_Build%29) count? Or any of the infinite combos that can be assembled by a moderately competent Planeswalker?
u/CorneliusPhi [+5] (6 hours later)
Pun-Pun
The Wish and the Word are where the real optimization lies: http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/The_Wish_and_the_Word_(3.5e_Optimized_Character_Build)
u/Iconochasm [+1] (a day later)
The Word is amazing, but I feel like I'm missing the point of the Wish. Is there anything to the build that couldn't be done by any character that got that silly Ring of Nonsense?
u/Escapement [+2] Ankh-Morpork City Watch (a day later)
Not really. Warlock lets him never roll his UMD skill for anything ever, but otherwise the abilities inherent to the character are mostly superfluous.
The characters were not really built to maximize brokenness, so much as to highlight places where the D&D rules were broken and needed to be patched badly. The Word was highlighting the fact that if you stuck a bunch of classes that were intended to make spellcaster prestige classing work by looking at the levels of other spellcaster classes you have, then the game would break; and also that repeated losing and gaining of levels from most sources also has very bad rules that cause the game to break. The Wish was highlighting that in the 3.5 rules edition, the writers changed the rules of the Wish spell in a way that explicitly allowed arbitrarily powerful magic items.
u/eternal-potato [+3] he who vegetates (5 hours later)
MC in After Life by Simon Funk kinda does this by virtue of being bullshit, except bullshit antagonist
u/seylerius [+1] Lord Inquisitor (5 hours later)
That's what that story was called! I'd forgotten. That was pretty good.
u/gabbalis [+4] (14 minutes later)
Hmm... Putting Down Roots?
I mean it's more OP crackfic than ratfic, but it gets bonus points from me for depicting insane plant Taylor's inhuman PoV at times.
Also it having like... three updates a day. That helps.
u/FeepingCreature [+2] GCV Literally The Entire Culture (2 days later)
For those finding this comment late: this story improves a bunch.
u/seylerius [+1] Lord Inquisitor (42 minutes later)
Yeah, I've been enjoying that. [Taylor] (#s "turning into shrub'thulhu and then later eating Leviathan is hilarious").
u/seylerius [+1] Lord Inquisitor (4 hours later)
Who got irritated at you for sharing shrub'thulhu?
u/FuguofAnotherWorld [+2] Roll the Dice on Fate (3 days later)
I prefer shrub'nuggurath personally.
u/lsparrish [+2] (22 minutes later)
Yes, please!
u/scruiser [+2] CYOA (6 hours later)
Thought of another one.. are you a Stargate fan, or a fan of the original X-com games? XSGCOM. It takes the already fast in-game reversing engineering times of the original XCOM games, and gives them Stargate tech.... Lots of awesome feel good curbstompage. Potassium-naqaudah hand-grenades, staff canon mounted in gatling configuration, and more. The enemies don't start escalating fast enough to keep up the tension, so the story has more of the lighthearted SG1 feel than the desperate XCOM feel. The first book finishes at a good place, but the next story ends on a cliffhanger.
Not quite full Von-nuemann so much as fully exploiting a sci-fi universe with lots of exploitable tech, but close to what you want... (asteroid mining using Tokra tunneling crystals and similar exploits)
u/seylerius [+1] Lord Inquisitor (6 hours later)
Sounds like fun! It's going on the list.
u/JackStargazer [+3] Primordial Apologist (8 hours later)
My one catch is that while the plot writing is great, the actual writing quality is... mediocre at best.
Especially early on in XSGCOM, there are a lot of awkward wordings, things that I wouldn't expect those characters to say, bad grammar, and far, far too many 'saids'.
u/seylerius [+1] Lord Inquisitor (9 hours later)
Good to know. I'll keep it in mind and suspend my nitpicks.
u/scruiser [+2] CYOA (9 hours later)
One more, a long running web-comic, Schlock Mercenary. It covers a band of mercenaries in the future. The technology used is pretty consistent in its physics (still soft-scifi, but consistent soft scifi) and its application by the characters while still having room for them to innovate. In particular, one of the main characters invents a new type of FTL that sets off much of the conflict that dominates the rest of the story.
The characters are also smart about using their resources. Fabricators and advanced by limited AI are present on every ship. When the main characters salvage a massive derelict warship, they use its fabricators to churn out a bunch of smaller ships that they still use even after the lose the warship. Mass fabricated missile/sensor/drone arrays are standard (innovated as the new FTL made them practical). When the characters get ahold of advanced military nanobot projects, they eventually put it towards a project to make humans immortal spoiler. A powerful AI spoiler One clever scientist abuses spoiler The one time time travel is used it gets exploited to its fullest while simultaneously having a good justification to prevent further time travel plots.
So yeah, its a long read from years of daily updates (the author like never misses), but it has a lot of high points in terms of "Brutally Efficient Self-Replicating Mechanism of War" and lots of clever munchkinry by the characters.
u/seylerius [+1] Lord Inquisitor (9 hours later)
I've been meaning to get into that. Thanks for the tip.
u/narfanator [+1] (a day later)
I had thought #3 was just lucky / unlucky timing, not deliberate?
u/scruiser [+1] CYOA (a day later)
Hmm.. been a while since I archive binged the series, so I might be remembering wrong
u/Chronophilia [+1] sci-fi ≠ futurology (a day later)
A bit of both. He was in trouble, needed some clever way to not get shot, but he didn't completely think the plan through.
u/Little_Cat_Z [+2] (20 hours later)
Try Fine Structure. I don't recall any Von Neumann shenanigans, but there's some pretty heavy power escalation toward the end.
His other full length fic, Ra, is a different kind of story, but also has some serious power ladder climbing, including
u/seylerius [+1] Lord Inquisitor (a day later)
Haven't read Fine Structure yet. Probably ought to.
u/lsparrish [+2] (a day later)
The Daniel Black series by the same guy that wrote Time Braid features a bit of VN munchkinism, although not as much as I would have liked. First 6 chapters here.
u/nerdguy1138 [+2] GNU Terry Pratchett (4 days later)
Http://fanfiction.net/s/11288007
Taylor gets lucky. A ROB hijacks her trigger event, giving her the power to create and modify other powers. Also she's basically unkiliable. short, but fun as hell.