42 KiB
Thoughts on Coolness and Pacing in Pokemon: Origin of Species [SPOILERS CHAPTER 34]
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Author: u/4t0m Chaos Legion*
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URL: https://www.reddit.com/r/rational/comments/4vopj3/thoughts_on_coolness_and_pacing_in_pokemon_origin/
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Score: 32
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Created: 2016-08-01T20:48:23
Post:
I was writing a comment in the chapter thread, and it ended up being way too long for reddit to let me post it there. I didn't feel like editing it much or throwing it away, so here it is.
The most recent chapter of Pokemon: Origin of Species has me thinking about my desire for characters to be powerful in a way I can admire, a desire that is (incidentally?) satisfied by a lot of RatFic, but in this one less than most. In line with this trend, I was slightly disappointed to see that Red would have to publicize his clever plan, thus giving it up as a comparative advantage moving forward, and further disappointed to see his plan put on hold. I'm pretty sure I'm mostly being silly wanting him to gain a sort of monopoly on Abra as a result of his plan, but it is a desire that I have, and the sort of thing that a lot of RatFic deliver but that this one doesn't so much, at least with Red.
This led me to write down my impression of each character so far, and formalize some thoughts on the pacing of the story, and how it might be improved (relative to my own interests, at least).
####Characters
Red
Red is growing, I think, but slowly. Almost every chapter he'll notice something he's doing that he could be doing better, and then does better, but there's not much sense that these are things he couldn't have noticed and solved in the first chapter. So even though he is progressing, he isn't really growing. I think he needs to raise the level of his play, even if he has to pay a price to do so, and he's paid plenty of prices already.
I'm hoping to see more discussion of vegetarianism (etc.) in future chapters. Despite not being vegetarian at the time, I remember being pretty unimpressed with Red's arguments last time, and I can only imagine I would think so more strongly now. As he develops his Psychic abilities I can see him reevaluating this question. After all, we saw how closely Misty bonded with her Starmie, and even if Alakazam's are only as smart as 4-year-old humans, they probably shouldn't be put into dog fights for no reason. Red's research on psychic pokemon should force him to at least reconsider his previous position, I think.
I have high hopes for this story, and enjoy each chapter without fail, but I'm hungry for more words, more development, and more awesome shit. That Red is psychic is great. He has an advantage other researchers don't and should be able to learn new things despite his lack of resources and experience. The experience of communicating psychically with pokemon will be fun to read about, and magic powers make characters cooler without fail. His recent thoughts about Renegades (especially when recalling his admiration for Giovanni) are a step towards integrating our protagonists into the larger plot of the world, and are the sort of "Quite Important but not Immediately Relevant or Actionable" questions that I like to see rational protagonists ask.
Green (EDIT: Leaf... I mean Leaf...)
While I register this complaint, I figure I should withdraw one I made a while back. In the comments of this post I complained a bit about Green's story, mostly about how I didn't think she had any reason to expect her first article to have much impact, but that I figured it would for narrative reasons. Also about how I didn't find her as "cool" as the others, despite wanting to. The latter is still true, but I think the aftermath of her article was very well-handled. The result comes with benefits and drawbacks, and puts her only a bit ahead of Blue in terms of platform-size. That there is some mystery as to what is going on with the Mayor is both interesting and makes it more plausible that her article would have some success.
I'm still hoping to see a bit more characterization from her though. Or scenes of her being awesome? I don't even know what to suggest, but I feel like more could be done with her somehow, maybe by tying her journalist ambitions into her thoughts on Pokemon rights? This seems like an important issue in her world, the kind of thing that ties in well with her capabilities and interests, and could be fun to explore in the story.
Green has a Save Everyone ethical system, the strength to speak her mind, and the desire to create change by gaining influence and educating people and changing people's minds (I think. Is that why she's a journalist?). She's an outsider spending time in Kanto for the first time, seeing some new pokemon and and experiencing a cultural landscape different from the one in which she grew up. In some ways she is perfectly positioned to be the typical rational protagonist, coming to a new country with an ethical system that judges the world as broken and the populace and evil through ignorance, with access to ideals and information to which others in Kanto may not have been exposed. And yet, somehow I don't think she's awesome? Part of it is that journalism is a sort of indirect way to make a difference maybe, or that I don't see how she could possibly have a large impact, and part of it is that she isn't the manic-genius-prodigy that makes inspiring speeches about Fixing Everything. And she doesn't need to be that person. Maybe that person isn't interesting to Daystar, or wouldn't fit into the story he wants to tell, or maybe that would have been great but the opportunity has passed. I don't know. But it still seems like she could be cooler, and that that would be cool. :)
Blue
Blue is basically a badass. No complaints here. His ambition is clear, and lends itself well to a portrayal as competent and growing. I'm sort of least interested in him, but I think he's living up to his potential. His ambition drives the story forward, he does stuff that makes me question his ethics and the ethics of the world, and chapters that focus on him include a lot of cool battles. I don't like cool battles more than reading about Red having novel insights or changing his mind about cool things, but it is more fun in the moment than reading about him writing papers or being rejected by some rangers.
####Pacing and Character Development
The story in general has a tension I'm not sure how I would solve. A bunch of interesting things are happening in the moment (e.g. Misty finding the cave, Giovanni doing mysterious stuff, something going on in Pewter City), but it has little to do with the protagonists. Even this recent development with Green's article is occurring in a city they aren't even in anymore. Worse, I'm not sure I want them to get more involved yet: the more time they spend interacting with the world's plot, the less time compression we have, and the less growth the characters are able to do (relative to chapter count).
/u/AlexanderWales manages his shifting POV well in Glimwarden because all three of his characters have distinct and interesting perspectives, because there the plot is being driven by things other than the choices of the main characters alone, and because he is able to advance the stories of all characters from any POV (at least, that's the reason I made up just now). /u/TK17Studios makes his shifting POV work because his story moves at a breakneck pace, because he skips over a lot within chapters, because he tells a full story in each chapter, and because he allows characters to grow and advance their stories while we aren't looking.
In this story though, we see almost everything that each character does (with the exception of Blue training his pokemon, I guess). And since the characters aren't very reactive, we have to watch them create opportunities, follow through on them, rinse and repeat, in a way that is realistic and fun, but a lot slower and less cool than the alternative. And when they do go through periods of reaction, a lot happens but it takes chapters of time for it to happen.
Mostly I don't know what should be done, or how this could be improved, or whether this is even really a problem, but two things do come to mind.
Suggestions
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Characters should be leveling up more as a result of their traumatic experiences, even if this is unrealistic. In HPMOR, Harry is a different person when he gets back from Azkaban. Likewise after the Trial, and likewise after the Troll. This is maybe a bit unrealistic, but it allows for a rate of growth proportional to the amount of chapters (and thus passage of time for the reader), rather than the passage of time in the story, and is generally super fun to read. As I mentioned above, Red is slowly improving, and will finally make some progress regarding his psychic abilities, but he is still very much the person we met at the start of the story. I think he needs to raise the level of his play, even if he has to pay a price to do so, and he's paid plenty of prices already.
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The other is that some change could be made to the structure of the story. We could spend less time in the POV of Blue and Green, to allow for more progress on Red's part even as their stories continue, or we could spend more time with them, and allow more to happen in the story of the character we aren't following. This way, characters can grow more naturally as a function of time than we'd see following the model described above, but growth would seem faster as we wouldn't see every second of it. POV shifts would occur with enough story-time between them to allow a bit of a discontinuity in the competence/awareness/and resource-access of the character.
One last time I'll mention that I really love this story. I've been reading and enjoying it for literally years, and I support it on Patreon. I also get that this may be a case where my taste and that of the author just don't align. I'm not sure the kind of story I'm advocating here can even be about someone learning to be a professor, though I imagine it is possible. I think /u/DaystarEld is doing a great job writing this, but I also know that every writer has limitations and that I shouldn't expect a fanfic to be perfect, or perfectly for me. Even after all that, it may be that my response is almost entirely a consequence of the monthly update rate, which we are largely stuck with :).
Still, I hope there is something here that DaystarEld will be able to apply to make the story better, if others on the subreddit share my general feeling. If not, it was still fun for me to clarify my thoughts, and it would be good to know if I should just re-calibrate my expectations, or if we're actually generally on the same page, and that everything above is mostly obvious. I'd also love to hear other readers' thoughts on what the story is doing well, and where it could do better, and how. What do people think about the pacing? The characters? The larger plot and world? Is there anywhere it is spending too much time? Or not enough?
Comments:
u/DaystarEld [+15] Pokémon Professor (3 hours later)
Thanks for all the feedback! A word of wisdom I've always tried to follow is that when someone critiques your writing you should, by and large, not try and justify or explain yourself, so I'll only address a few things that I think relate to my struggles with rational writing in general :)
In line with this trend, I was slightly disappointed to see that Red would have to publicize his clever plan, thus giving it up as a comparative advantage moving forward, and further disappointed to see his plan put on hold. I'm pretty sure I'm mostly being silly wanting him to gain a sort of monopoly on Abra as a result of his plan, but it is a desire that I have, and the sort of thing that a lot of RatFic deliver but that this one doesn't so much, at least with Red.
To be honest, I was disappointed too! I had all sorts of plans for the money he, Blue and Leaf would make with their abra catching scheme, and intended to have it occur this chapter.
And then, sometime in the middle of the month as I was writing, I did what I always try to do with the story, and really thought about it. And as I did, I had a thought that made me sad, but also made me revise my plans.
Because that thought was "It would be blisteringly, unforgivably stupid of them to do something like this on their own."
And that thought was true. It would be an enormous risk to try this alone, and that means they need oversight or help from others, and that means they can't keep the technique to themselves.
There's a struggle in what I'm trying to accomplish with this story that is definitely turning out to be harder than I imagined it would be at first, and that struggle is in incorporating, as you put it, "cool" scenes while still maintaining it as a story about an aspiring rationalist.
I could write the scene out and just have everything go well, or even have something go wrong and have them get through it... but what kind of rationalist would Red be, son of a Ranger that he is, who's already been in enough life threatening situations, and had a whole flashback about weighing risk and precautionary measure, to take such a massive risk here? The potential for reward is nowhere big enough to justify it.
So in what I view as "in the name of rationality," this particular Cool moment and bit of munchkinry will have to wait, and will have to be somewhat restrained. It's not the first time (a similar thing happened earlier, with the idea of flipping clefairy once their value on the market jumped, though that idea was shot down due to a moral qualm that is, in itself, ambiguous and not completely settled in the story just yet) and won't be the last.
Hopefully I can put in enough other coolness to make up for the reduction in the Rationalist Power Fantasy that I definitely share and want to see Red go through :)
Red... I think he needs to raise the level of his play, even if he has to pay a price to do so, and he's paid plenty of prices already.
The main point I would make here is that Red doesn't need to raise his level of play yet. He's not trying to accomplish something in a drastic timeline, like Blue. He's not facing imminent threats, like the protagonists of Glimwarden or Animorphs. At some point he definitely will be, and at that point his level of play will jump accordingly, but in the meantime, from a story perspective, that may well be a real problem, and I clearly need to do a better job in making his chapters and arc more engaging.
Green... Maybe that person isn't interesting to Daystar, or wouldn't fit into the story he wants to tell, or maybe that would have been great but the opportunity has passed. I don't know. But it still seems like she could be cooler, and that that would be cool.
That person is definitely interesting to me, and as you've accurately guessed, that's the path her arc will end up taking. I've always loved the chapters in Ender's Game where Peter and Valentine shape the public discourse as Locke and Demosthenes, but the rate and effectiveness at which they did it required an unrealistic (or rather, naive, in a kind sense, since the book was written before the internet as we know it today even existed) perspective of how things work. Building Leaf into the kind of figure she's going to one day be, in a rational story, takes time and attention that, in all fairness, is probably not as engaging as it could be or should be. I'll try to do a better job of making it so, moving forward.
Blue ...is basically a badass.
Yep. Yep he is. And since he's the least rational of the three, it's easier to put him in immediate high stake situations that let his particular brand of coolness shine.
Pacing and Character Development
I remember reading HPMOR and marveling at how virtually every other day of the year at Hogwarts had events in them important enough to have at least a scene in, and what a good job EY did in making it all feel important enough to justify that. The pace of Pokemon early on was definitely at a crawl compared to other Pokemon fanfiction, as I tried to include every scene of any relevance whatsoever in exploring the world and showing the characters' approach to solving problems and getting to know each other.
I don't think my own characters and their interactions are as compelling as HPMOR's were yet, but what I've aspired to is the same level of detail in showing everything that I feel is important (or would be later) rather than just summarizing it. Now that the majority of the groundwork for the characters and world's establishment is done, I'm planning more plot focused chapters, and will be using time skips much more often to summarize things we've seen before, like their quick visit to the shopping mall this chapter.
Overall I think these are all fair criticism, and I'm going to strive to incorporate and integrate them into my my writing and the story moving forward. Thanks for writing all this out! I'm glad you're still enjoying the story regardless, and thanks for your continued support :)
u/4t0m [+6] Chaos Legion (3 hours later)
:) Thanks for the reply!
There's a struggle in what I'm trying to accomplish with this story that is definitely turning out to be harder than I imagined it would be at first, and that struggle is in incorporating, as you put it, "cool" scenes while still maintaining it as a story about an aspiring rationalist.
I respect this a lot. All I can hope is that you continue to find clever exploits that actually work. Perhaps it will be easier when the three of them have more resources.
though that idea was shot down due to a moral qualm that is, in itself, ambiguous and not completely settled in the story just yet
I was not convinced by this moral qualm :(.
The main point I would make here is that Red doesn't need to raise his level of play yet. He's not trying to accomplish something in a drastic timeline, like Blue.
This is a good point, but I guess I'm getting impatient for him to find a goal that will push him to improve.
That person is definitely interesting to me, and as you've accurately guessed, that's the path her arc will end up taking.
Very much looking forward to this. (I can't believe I forgot her name was Leaf though...)
I remember reading HPMOR and marveling at how virtually every other day of the year at Hogwarts had events in them important enough to have at least a scene in, and what a good job EY did in making it all feel important enough to justify that... don't think my own characters and their interactions are as compelling as HPMOR's were yet, but what I've aspired to is the same level of detail in showing everything that I feel is important (or would be later) rather than just summarizing it.
Yeah, for all of its flaws, HPMOR really is very good. I do like all of the small interactions though. The friendship between Red and Blue is so deep and convincing, and Leaf's integration into the group has been very natural. I mentioned elsewhere that beyond the munchkin-y aspects I enjoyed reading about Red's plan because it was heartwarming to see Blue and Leaf support him -- not because they pitied him but because they believed in him.
Thanks for writing all this out! I'm glad you're still enjoying the story regardless, and thanks for your continued support
Definitely still enjoying the story, and your response to this post (as well as your comments elsewhere before I wrote it), leave me optimistic that I will enjoy future chapters even more.
u/Dragonheart91 [+5] (5 hours later)
I think it's kind of interesting that even you consider your main character to not have a major pressing goal. Maybe the "slow" pacing of the story is a result of there being insufficient conflict in the primary storyline?
I don't see it as a major issue, at least not yet, but it does make me think. I think of myself as a rational protagonist in my own world and I'm constantly trying to munchkin real life. Much like Red though, my goals are far reaching and hard to obtain and I often end up just surviving and getting smarter and better very slowly over many years. I dream of a major conflict that could force me to evolve and I guess that is one of the fantasies I often enjoy in fiction that isn't yet being fulfilled here.
(I complain about your story as someone who has enjoyed it a lot so far. I'm only behind on the chapters because it's so addictive that I want to read it in bigger chunks that one chapter at a time.)
u/DaystarEld [+5] Pokémon Professor (5 hours later)
Yeah, that's pretty accurate: his conflicts are immediate rather than ongoing (survive the sudden attack of pokemon) and his goals are long-term and require a slow accumulation of skills and work.
It doesn't really fit the normal fictional plotting, since part of what makes fiction so appealing is that it often puts people in extreme circumstances that compress all the excitement and growth that normally takes the average person months.
u/The_Magus_199 [+4] Ankh-Morpork City Watch (20 hours later)
For what it's worth, I actually really like some of the slower-paced worldbuilding. Apart from just regular nostalgia, one of the things that I love about Pokemon over its various clones is that it tries to build something of a functioning world; the lore surrounding each Pokemon - at least when it's not talking about Indian elephants - brings up something that really does seem to be a living, breathing world with the Pokemon interacting with other species in the wild and such. Now, since it's at its core a children's game it obviously doesn't go as far as it could, but we still have enough little hinted things to go on, like the likely relationship between Garchomp and Sharpedo. While I love the characters and am quite interested in the early shreds of plot we're starting to see, imo where this fic really shines is in stuff like the short bit about how fortuitous chance meetings became a trope in the Pokemon World's fiction and how that lead to trainers having the habit of exchanging numbers. (I certainly hope to see various trainers they meet showing up multiple times and becoming Heroes of Another Story as the fic progresses.) So, while I definitely get the complaints about the plot being kind of slow, I hope that you don't speed up too much and leave the world in the dust.
u/InfernoVulpix [+3] (8 hours later)
Regarding Red and the Abra, from a literary standpoint it isn't very possible to show the Abra plan in real time and detail anymore. I remember hearing once, when learning about the law of conservation of detail, that if someone comes up with a plan, hero, villain, or otherwise, if we hear enough of the plan to picture it in our heads then something will be different in execution and if the plan is not explained to the viewer then it will likely succeed. In short, you only get to show the same plan once, and explaining it before it is attempted counts.
With Red, he's already explained his plan with the Abra. I visualized it, so I can attest that it would be boring to see it happen a second time. But there's more than just the plan to deal with here. Red is disappointed that he can't keep the secret of the technique, and you have admitted that you are also put off about how Red won't get large quantities of money from this. But there's more you can do with this. As Red coordinates the event (assuming it happens), he can think about how to maximize his profits on the Abra he can catch before the price crashes. He can look inwards, and consider the roots of his desire for the money and the other emotions floating around there, and he can look outwards and try to talk to the people he gets to help him, and see if there's anything he can do before the price crashes. Both can happen during his experiment, with said experiment in the background because we've already seen it happen in Red's explanation, and both provide more opportunity for character growth. With luck, Red might even find a way to get a good amount of spending money out of the deal anyways, such as selling the first batch of Abra he finds before the price can drop much. I think, at least, that having more items will only enhance the story and that you might not have to postpone the idea much.
With overall pacing, it does come across as a bit slow and relaxed, exactly what you would expect from three kids on a journey, if said journey is not filled with fighting terrorists and/or forces of nature. Blue, the exception, is always pushing onward, but he does not dominate the flow of the story. Relaxed is fine, just as good for a story as tense, but just like a fast-moving plot risks running out of critical events before the story is done justice, a slow-moving plot risks stagnating when the ideas that fit within the one setting run dry.
It might be more accurate, though, to say that the stories of the main characters is relaxed, rather than the story in general is relaxed. If you introduced side characters with stories of their own, ones that frequently but not incessantly intersected the main characters' stories in meaningful but not intrusive ways, the story as a whole could come across as more lively even as the main characters stroll through it. And I know that all sounded like wide strokes notions and it may even be really just grand gesturing about nothing, but one of the ideas I've been considering for a while now is that a world that is deep, vibrant, and alive is best achieved by having a large cast of side characters, each with their own story. I'm not fully confident in that idea, or if it is the fundamental idea I should be looking for, but if it's correct it could be key to keeping a bright and lively tone in a relaxed and calm story.
As always, I hope at least one of the things I just said is useful, and I look forward to seeing how Red will do the best he can with what he has.
u/DaystarEld [+5] Pokémon Professor (9 hours later)
Definitely is, and you're right in examining the ways the abra plan and how Red will try to benefit from it will become more complex :) I didn't mean to imply that I was shelving it, it's just going to happen next chapter instead of this one, since it will end up being a bit more complicated.
Also, one of your previous reviews is still one of my favorites of the story, and it's definitely relevant for this discussion:
...if you took a snapshot of this story, the basic concept that it was created around, and expanded it out into a chapter, this is likely what you would get. You have the science, the more realistic interpretation of Pokemon training, and the other dynamics of the Pokemon world, among other things. I'd be willing to bet that those concepts are what inspired this story.
But on its own, that snapshot can't make a story. We see those elements appear through the story, but it is the plot that makes it a novel, an interesting story. Certainly, some might find a plot-less examination of a rational Pokemon world entertaining, but the Guinness Book of World Records, while entertaining to its readers, is no novel. That is the comparison I would make.
...the difference between encyclopedia and novel, provide an insight about the Pokemon anime. It was never meant to be a novel, a story that progresses and changes towards an ultimate conclusion. It took a snapshot of Ash's journey, and expanded it into episode after episode. It retained originality among the many expanded snapshots by continually introducing new Pokemon and new people, or on the odd occasion showing a slightly different snapshot of Ash's journey, that of his battles against gyms, rivals, and in the Conferences.
Any person approaching the Pokemon anime and expecting it to behave like a novel would soon feel that same distress, since the Pokemon anime is no story. It is a snapshot, the ideal of a Pokemon journey, provided under a different skin every episode. It has its popularity because a good amount of people are attracted to the snapshot, and the skin keeps them from growing bored. I can say that this works for many children because, as I recall from back then, the mere fact that I couldn't recite the lines of every character was enough to have me bouncing in my seat, and this is a sentiment I have found other people shared as a child.
On the other hand, those that scoff at the anime for being 'too filler-y' see past the skin and, desiring a story to the anime, are distressed to find none. This is something that we often see happen to fans who grew past the point of being a child, and their tastes changed with them. I am currently wondering if such people could overcome their distaste for an encyclopedic anime if they truly knew what they were watching, and thus set up different expectations.
u/4t0m [+2] Chaos Legion (a month later)
I didn't mean to imply that I was shelving it, it's just going to happen next chapter instead of this one
ಠ_ಠ
u/DaystarEld [+2] Pokémon Professor (a month later)
Er, right. About that... See, the title of the chapter is "Deception," so it actually has a clever meta meaning to-
points Look, there's the abra section!
runs
(But seriously, my bad :) I was going to write them doing the abra thing, then figured out a way for them to keep it mostly secret by tying Bill in earlier than I originally planned!)
u/4t0m [+1] Chaos Legion (a month later)
:)
u/InfernoVulpix [+1] (18 hours later)
Yeah, the ideas I put into that review are some of the most significant ideas I've had about fiction yet, and while the Pokemon anime is a great case study it extends much further. I'm actually really glad that I have opportunities like this, to go at length about the ideas I've been cultivating, so that I can reaffirm the logic behind them and add nuance.
u/gbear605 [+3] history’s greatest story (15 hours later)
That's it! I realized a while ago that there was a category of stories that other people tended to dislike that I really really loved. I had noticed that one feature these stories didn't have that other stories did have was the "I'm about to state the plan, and then we fade to black"
I place a >50% confidence on that being this "law of conservation of detail." If someone has a cool plan (eg. this abra plan), I want to hear it described over and over again, even in repetitive detail. I read over the abra plan about five times just because it was so neat, not because I was doing any deeper analysis.
Part of this may be that I (believe I) have a poor mental picture of actions that expand beyond a single instance of time. I can fully picture a single "frame" of action, but when something involves multiple "frames," I can't really picture the whole thing coming together.
Thank you for this insight.
u/Cariyaga [+8] Kyubey did nothing wrong (3 hours later)
On the subject of pacing, personally, while I would love to have more content, that's more an "impatient reader" complaint than a legitimate one, as otherwise, I thoroughly enjoy how Origin gives us information on pretty much everything that happens.
It, to me, makes me feel like I'm a part of the story, some unspoken character in the background that's there listening in on what happens, rather than watching a movie, with explicit scenes.
u/Dragonheart91 [+4] (2 hours later)
I'm ok with the slow pacing of the story generally, but I think it is a legitimate complaint that we spend so much time on world type points of view. Every single interlude, no matter how cool, frustrates me. The story is already moving slow enough that taking a chapter off - especially when you are current with the story and waiting a week for more - is painful.
As with the majority of fanfiction, I think editing down could benefit the story. It's not a major concern though as the content has been quite enjoyable and this world is deep enough that just listening to the inner monologue of characters thinking about it can be quite entertaining.
u/DaystarEld [+7] Pokémon Professor (3 hours later)
Every single interlude, no matter how cool, frustrates me.
Yeah, I think this is going to continue to be the most divisive part of my story for awhile. Many readers have expressed how frustrating they find them, while some of the most popular chapters have been interludes. I hope I can do a better job moving forward of tying them into and propelling Red, Blue, and Leaf's journey.
u/DerSaidin [+5] (13 hours later)
I liked the interludes. I think they are perfect for setting up events later on, and they make me want to see what happens... e.g. are the trio going to have to take on Mewtwo? Red is focusing his research on psychics, will Blue capitalise on being dark and specialise in anti-psychic combat? Will Red's research/expertise figure out a way to stop/help/catch Mewtwo? Will Blue beat Mewtwo in a fight? Can Leaf mobilise popular support for some solution?
I expect Mewtwo is the final boss, with a lot of events and challenges on the way, but I'm already making myself hyped thinking of all these possibilities :)
Same with Giovani and the cave - interested to see how they fit together, and how they play out.
u/Dragonheart91 [+4] (3 hours later)
I'm also biased because in general I tend to dislike interludes and I feel like they interrupt the story. I get why they exist and I sometimes enjoy them, but man do I wish I could just read a story without interruption sometimes.
I actually frequently skip interludes until I get to a major story arc conclusion and then go back and read all the ones I skipped. So maybe my advice if you are writing to people like me, is to put an interlude after a plot point concludes instead of as a way of stalling wrapping up a storyline.
u/DaystarEld [+4] Pokémon Professor (3 hours later)
Hmm. As it stands I currently have interludes placed at transitions or just after major events conclude:
The first was the night after their first day of traveling.
The second was after they finish with the dead body at the beedrill field.
The third was at the end of the Viridian fire.
The fourth was as they leave Pewter.
And the fifth was after the dig site attack.
Or do you mean wider arcs than those?
u/Dragonheart91 [+3] (4 hours later)
This wasn't a specific criticism of you, I was thinking about all the fan fiction I've been reading where it bothers me. Although IIRC the one after the beedrill incident bothered me because I wanted to see more on their reactions on that and move past an emotionally disruptive moment, not linger on it.
I'm also not current on your story, so I can't judge the one after pewter city or the dig site.
This is so subjective that it's hard to give specific constructive criticism. I appreciate you listening and I hope you keep improving as an author and writing thought provoking stories.
u/DaystarEld [+7] Pokémon Professor (4 hours later)
Ahh, gotcha. Thanks for letting me know!
And if you haven't read the latest two interludes, I'm looking forward to when you do, if you ever do, as they were the best received so far, and I'm curious to see if they warm the cockles of your anti-interlude heart ;)
u/thrawnca [+2] Carbon-based biped (4 hours later)
Every single interlude, no matter how cool, frustrates me
:D I take it you don't follow Mother of Learning? I'm loving it - but at three-week intervals... :s
u/Dragonheart91 [+2] (5 hours later)
It's on my list but I haven't read it.
u/Sailor_Vulcan [+5] Champion of Justice and Reason (3 hours later)
I care more about the quality of the story than the pacing, but I agree that it has been very slow, and I am hungry for more. What I think impatient readers should ask themselves is this: if you only started reading after the story is completed, would your opinion of the pacing change? Perhaps the problem isn't the writing's pacing, but the publishing's?
u/UltraRedSpectrum [+6] (4 hours later)
To be completely honest, having reread the story start to finish, it still struck me as extremely slow-moving. Usually on rereads a story feels faster, but even with that consideration it's positively glacial. Consider: Origin of Species is more than twice as long as Brave New World, and it still feels like it's in its first act.
Not to say it isn't a terrific story. I did, after all, read it twice already, so I can't exactly criticize on that front, but maybe a few of the less plot-relevant elements could stand cutting. Assuming they'll go through all eight canonical gyms at about this speed, there's no reason for so many similar scenarios to take place in quick succession. For example, the forest fire and the parasect ramage were, narratively speaking, redundant, with only the Renegade branding really setting the latter apart. It would've worked just as well to have the disasters spread further apart, rather than devoting thousands of words to repetition.
u/4t0m [+2] Chaos Legion (3 hours later)
I hope I didn't strike you as too much of an impatient reader in the OP, though I can see how I would. I think if there is a problem it is with the publishing, but that I would probably prefer a faster-paced story as a personal preference.
u/AmeteurOpinions [+3] Finally, everyone was working together. (an hour later)
P:tOoS definitely has a slower growth curve than, say, Mother of Learning. Zorian.34 is significantly more powerful and versatile than Red.34, compared to the challenges he faces.
However, I think a bigger part of this is that there is a finite amount of wordcount/screentime/power per chapter, and in P:tOoS it has to be evenly divided three ways or else one of the members of the party will stagnate in comparison. Zorian, on the other hand, has all the text to himself.
u/Timewinders [+3] (an hour later)
This is part of it, but I think Origin of Species is just generally a very slow-paced story. Which isn't necessarily a bad thing, and I know lots of fanfiction readers prefer stories with high wordcounts. However, it took over 150k words for the story to get past the first gym. Where Mother of Learning will paraphrase or summarize scenes where Zorian is doing something not very interesting, Origin of Species will spend a hundred words on the characters eating a meal or something. I do think all the scenes have a clear purpose and that the way Daystareld expands them with lots of description makes it easier to visualize what's going on and get immersed in the story, but I often get distracted reading this story in a way I don't with faster-paced stories.
u/The_Magus_199 [+3] Ankh-Morpork City Watch (20 hours later)
Personally, I actually rather like this pacing. Yeah, occasionally there'll be a chapter that feels like mostly setup and it'll kind of hurt to wait for a month, but overall I feel like the way it's being written makes the world feel more real and personal than if it skipped over the "everyday life on a Pokemon journey" bits.
u/4t0m [+3] Chaos Legion (an hour later)
I agree that this is a factor slowing things down, but quicker growth is clearly possible. Animorphs: The Reckoning is a very different story, but it demonstrates how a large cast of characters can be developed quickly, naturally, and economically.
u/beardedrabbit [+3] (2 hours later)
Have you read Pokemon: Game of Champions? It might scratch an itch you have, even though it isn't finished and likely won't ever be. It's my favorite Pokemon ratfic I've read so far, though oos has potential it's not there yet.
u/4t0m [+2] Chaos Legion (3 hours later)
I think I tried that story in the past, and didn't consider it to be ratfic. I'll give it another try though. Thanks for the recommendation!
u/beardedrabbit [+2] (3 hours later)
Now that you mention it, it's not the same as oos where red is conducting scientific research and examining his biases. It does, however, have lots of clever solutions to seemingly impossible problems, and the character growth is fun to watch.
u/DaystarEld [+2] Pokémon Professor (8 hours later)
Game of Champions is definitely my favorite pokemon fanfic, and while it has far better worldbuilding and character depth than most others I've tried, it's not really a rationalfic in my mind.
Some chapters are, like the one where Blue gets his Ninetails, but in others like Red's fight with Misty, the author "cheats" for Rule of Cool and false dramatic tension.
u/beardedrabbit [+1] (14 hours later)
That's a very good point, Oos is much more genre/trope-savvy and rational than Game of Champions. Keep up the awesome work, I'm really enjoying oos so far!
u/DerSaidin [+3] (13 hours later)
I'm hungry for more words, more development, and more awesome shit.
I'm happy with the slower build up to awesome shit. Not that it is slow; there is plenty of excitement with all the gym battles, rampaging pokemon, and renegades.
Characters don't just get to go rationalist-supersaiyan whenever they please. They have to work and build over time. They have to earn it. You can't just skip to dessert - eat your vegetables and you will enjoy the ice-cream so much more!
Imo keep doing what you do Daystar :)
u/Taborask [+3] (20 hours later)
Thanks for this review, I'd somehow managed to never hear about this story and it's really engaging. Ever since Significant Digits ended I've been sadly lacking in rationalized versions of my favorite childhood IP's
u/4t0m [+1] Chaos Legion (10 minutes later)
Test to see whether I'll be downvoted to oblivion or upvoted a little if I ask for karma charity, even though I know it's silly to care.
(Text posts don't give you any karma.)
EDIT: Woah this is no longer true. Don't upvote, but I'm leaving this here so that people see (and understand the context for) Alex's reply.
u/alexanderwales [+7] Time flies like an arrow (36 minutes later)
Text posts give you karma.
https://www.reddit.com/r/announcements/comments/4tmb16/karma_for_textposts_aka_selfposts/
u/4t0m [+2] Chaos Legion (40 minutes later)
Ah, cool. Thanks for the heads up.