12 KiB
World-saver's Checklist
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Author: u/rthomas2 *
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URL: https://www.reddit.com/r/rational/comments/5em59o/worldsavers_checklist/
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Score: 15
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Created: 2016-11-24T05:36:55
Post:
I've seen a bunch of posts on here asking how one might Munchkin a superpower or situation to save the world. I've really enjoyed them, but each one seems to leave out the key question: what counts as a world saved?
To me, that's the more-interesting question at the heart of all the ones posted on here. Is the world saved by eliminating death? by addressing all x-risks? Should we go further, and talk about a post-scarcity society, or some level of rationality/fulfillment being available to all through optimized education/lifestyle? What would have to change from where we are now, to make human civilization eutopian?
I have (many) thoughts of my own, which I'll post in the comments; but my main interest is in comparing notes with people. So: what do you folks think?
Edit: As u/PeridexisErrant pointed out below, saving the world is often seen as stopping threats; optimizing the world is seen as improving it until ideal. I'm mostly asking about the second one, despite my terminology.
Comments:
u/DataPacRat [+14] Amateur Immortalist (2 hours later)
One basic criteria to measure how saved and/or eutopian the posited world is "Is DataPacRat going to be alive n years from now, for n > 0?", or, if you need a finer-grained measurement, "What is the likelihood DataPacRat is going to be alive n years from now?" (especially as the first question ceases to be answered 'no' for all n > 100, and the second question continues increasing for ever-larger values of n).
Reasonably easy to calculate compared to most ways of measuring whether the world is saved or not, possesses a certain amount philosophical justification (and that's without even getting into the semantic arguments about everyone's existence being within 'their' world), and I obviously have a certain amount of incentive to promote this particular standard. :)
u/rthomas2 [+1] (2 hours later)
Sounds like a reasonable criteria, especially from where you're standing XD Any thoughts on what would need to change in the world at large/your local circumstances to secure that goal?
u/DataPacRat [+5] Amateur Immortalist (3 hours later)
It's an interesting question, with a few different approaches. For example, I could say that "In order to survive for one second, I'll need the general mass of my body to stay intact; to survive for a few minutes, I'll need air to breathe; to survive for a few days, I'll need water to drink", which then seems to work through most of Maslow's hierarchy of needs in order to get the civilization required for stable life-saving organizations such as the supply-chains which hospitals depend on. But as we start getting to more than ~50 years from now, then we start getting into the odder options; for example, I'm a fully-fledged real-world cryonicist, and not too long ago wrote up a revival-request document which I hope increases my odds of being alive at some future n even if I'm dead during some intermediate n's. :)
Probably the biggest items needing change, in order to handle high n's, are better biomedical techniques so my own body doesn't kill me of old age (and/or I can be fixed up if it does), and better large-scale-organizational strategies that so that my civilization can handle existential risks.
u/MagicWeasel [+2] Cheela Astronaut (18 hours later)
and not too long ago wrote up a revival-request document
I remember reading something similar that I feel like someone on here posted - was that you? I'd be curious to read it again if it was, and if it wasn't, I'd be curious to read another. I don't know why but I find them really interesting to read.
u/DataPacRat [+3] Amateur Immortalist (19 hours later)
As far as I've been able to tell, I'm the first and so-far-only person to have publicly discussed making such a document, so it's almost certain that you're remembering me. :) I've sent my final draft off to my cryo provider, and also keep a copy online here.
If you know of any other such texts, I'd like to read them, too. :)
u/MagicWeasel [+1] Cheela Astronaut (20 hours later)
I am pretty sure it's the same one, thankyou for sharing it!
I don't know why, but something about the earnest desire the document seems to give off to ensure that someone who enjoys hiking is revived in the future is really... charming, for wont of a better word.
u/DataPacRat [+2] Amateur Immortalist (20 hours later)
I suspect that reading something with the maximum amount of sincerity that can be included is a bit of a rarity, these days.
u/MagicWeasel [+1] Cheela Astronaut (20 hours later)
For me it hits the same sort of emotional notes of those "warning to future generations about our nuclear waste dumps" messages (years and years ago I found a paper from the 70s all about it which was really interesting). I'm not sure why that is. I guess it's the hope of communicating with someone who, while from a different culture, is still human.
Here is an example, for the curious:
This place is a message… and part of a system of messages… pay attention to it!Sending this message was important to us. We considered ourselves to be a powerful culture.
This place is not a place of honor…no highly esteemed deed is commemorated here… nothing valued is here.
What is here is dangerous and repulsive to us. This message is a warning about danger.
The danger is in a particular location… it increases toward a center… the center of danger is here… of a particular size and shape, and below us.
The danger is still present, in your time, as it was in ours.
The danger is to the body, and it can kill.
The form of the danger is an emanation of energy.
The danger is unleashed only if you substantially disturb this place physically. This place is best shunned and left uninhabited.
And here's a place for more info: http://www.wipp.energy.gov/picsprog/articles/wipp%20exhibit%20message%20to%2012,000%20a_d.htm
u/DataPacRat [+2] Amateur Immortalist (20 hours later)
I'm going to admit, my task was somewhat simplified by the fact that without a continuous human organization to refill the liquid nitrogen tanks, I'll end up warm-and-dead and there'll be no point to the letter at all. Otherwise I'd be spending a bit more time on coming up with ways to communicate with future folk who don't have any language in common than I'm spending on minor translations such as this. :)
Oh, and I suspect you'd enjoy the MLP fanfiction story The Writing on the Wall, if you haven't already seen it.
u/MagicWeasel [+1] Cheela Astronaut (a day later)
I hadn't, and thankyou, it was a really good read though I obviously worked out the twist from the part about the spikes! The doc done by the "let's work out how to make a Message" think-tank had a few "hypothetical situations" to show how different Messages could be interpreted by different future cultures, so seeing the Message being interpreted by a cartoon pony is of course excellent.
u/throwaway11252016 [+1] (a day later)
I liked the idea of your document. It made me think about what a person could do to increase the odds of their revival after cryopreservation. Specifically, I was imagining scenarios where revival was experimental and the revivers were looking for optimal candidates, or where revival was very expensive and a priority queue was formed. What are your thoughts on any of the following ideas:
-Depositing material resources that will be rare in the future and memorizing their locations.
-Holding useful information about the present or past hostage (e.g. doing useful, niche research and failing to publish it. This example is vague because it was hard to imagine what that research could be.)
-Increasing the likelihood of cryopreservation being a success by having everyone cryopreserved do one of the above and thereby artificially increasing the social value of reviving people.
If you've seen the above points discussed somewhere before, I'd be interested in a link to that as well.
Cheers.
u/DataPacRat [+2] Amateur Immortalist (3 days later)
Depositing
I know of at least one cryonicist who is planning on something close to burying rare coins at an unmarked but memorable location; and there has been some discussion about using "brainwallets" to hold onto some number of Bitcoin.
hostage
In the novel "Tomorrow and Tomorrow", the protagonist interviews musicians, publishes some of the results, and strongly hints that he had lots of unpublished info before cryopreserving himself.
everyone
Cryonicists are diverse enough in varied ways that even trying to make such a requirement would result in the opening of a new cryo organization that lacked such a rule.
u/PeridexisErrant [+13] put aside fear for courage, and death for life (an hour later)
'Saving the world' is just maintaining the status quo despite potential catastrophes or enemies (such as the election of Giant Meteor 2016).
The distinct genre of 'improving the world' has much more moral depth, but remains sadly less popular.
u/rthomas2 [+1] (2 hours later)
Good point. I'll edit the post to reflect that I'm most interested in the latter.
u/Zeikos [+3] Communist Transhumanism (2 hours later)
I would define it by the total elimination of all (present) existential risks.
'Saving the world' most of the times simply means 'saving the human race' , you can get into nuances but it's the most common usage, so i wouldn't say that full immortality/post scarcity would a requirement, while being a good addition.
u/Mrbasie [+2] (12 hours later)
All humans will have to agree on the same facts and set the rules of survival from there. Otherwise it is propagating of ideas to convince one side to kill the earth or destroy it for survival...
u/rthomas2 [+1] (13 hours later)
When you say "agree on the same facts", do you mean they'd need to all have the same standards for determining what's true, false, and undetermined? or that they just need to agree on certain key principles?
u/Nepene [+2] (16 hours later)
In terms of what we can do today- most diseases which can be annihilated are (diseases being horrific to intellect, social development, and happiness) most humans can live happy, fulfilling lives, environmental damage is minimized, most humans can enjoy clean food and water, have shoes, have clothes, jobs or basic income available to all, cheap treatment of all cheap conditions, full funding of mental healthcare and housing for all, and extensive scientific research.
In terms of the near future, more use of automated software to reduce accidents, genetic engineering and stem cells to fix conditions and reduce ageing, lazarus technology to revive the dead.