120 KiB
[RT][HF]Mother of Learning Chapter 62: Improperly Used
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Author: u/Fredlage *
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URL: https://www.fictionpress.com/s/2961893/62/Mother-of-Learning
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Score: 166
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Created: 2016-12-05T00:13:05
Post:
Comments:
u/SometimesATroll [+48] (42 minutes later)
I'm kind of upset that I never thought of using the invasion as a distraction for gathering information not directly related to the invasion itself. The library was right there the whole time!
u/thrawnca [+39] Carbon-based biped (an hour later)
"Don't leave the simulacrum running for too long, or it may decide to overwrite my mind with its own"
Actually, having the simulacrum supply its non-shared memories back to him sounds like a very good idea. Sure, they can't just seamlessly integrate, the author has made that clear, but Zorian is skilled enough to make memory packets.
Still risky, of course.
u/None [+16] (2 hours later)
[deleted]
u/thrawnca [+12] Carbon-based biped (2 hours later)
Where does it say that they can't seamlessly reintegrate?
Yes, I would expect Zorian to be able to achieve something with his mind magic, eg a memory packet. However, he's nowhere near the level I would expect him to need in order to attempt any kind of personality integration, even with quite small divergences. He may be a master mind mage by human standards, but remember his reaction to opening the Matriarch's memory packet. He's way behind true masters.
u/GodKiller999 [+2] (13 hours later)
I don't think he's that behind even by Araneas standards he's probably up there.
u/spanj [+11] (14 hours later)
Spear of Resolve seemed to have found a way to turn part of her mind into a magical calculator, could somehow temporarily separate her mind into multiple parallel threads of thought and could integrate perceptions of multiple araneas into a unified, coherent whole. And that was just the stuff he could figure out in the short time he had been given.
Considering he hasn't even done the more simple mind modifications mentioned in chapter 54, he seems to be pretty far behind when it comes to the Aranea. Maybe when he opens the secret door in the Cyorian Aranean Treasury, he'll get some useful information like integration of perceptions which could help with simulacra.
u/GodKiller999 [+6] (14 hours later)
That's compared to matriarchs though and they're the top when it comes to Araneas.
u/spanj [+3] (15 hours later)
It mentions that "elders" of the aranea had the more simple mind modifications and even those were "radical and convoluted". So it doesn't seem to be a trait exclusive to the matriarchs. They're still high ranking aranea but when you compare to the aranean standard which these elders would exemplify, he's definitely not a master.
u/GodKiller999 [+3] (16 hours later)
The elders also happen to be in the pool of possible matriarchs should the current one die, so they're hardly your average Aranea.
u/thrawnca [+5] Carbon-based biped (2 days later)
they're the top
And? Whether true masters are many or few, the point is, the kind of skills you'd probably need to integrate personalities like that are still far beyond him.
u/GodKiller999 [+3] (2 days later)
It being his own personality might make it alot easier.
u/thrawnca [+3] Carbon-based biped (2 days later)
Yeah, but... I think that's in the same realm as moving a building being easier than moving a mountain.
u/GodKiller999 [+3] (2 days later)
Whatever, it's just opinions at this point, we'll see how it goes.
u/thrawnca [+10] Carbon-based biped (2 hours later)
If the simulacrum was good enough to also be capable of memory packet creation, and if the original and the copy both carry telepathic relays, then they might be able to update each other in near-real-time, plus the simulacrum might be able to 'upload' itself back to him if it was backed into a corner and had to commit suicide.
For that matter, since the simulacrum is attached directly to his soul, can it keep functioning after his death? I guess that's the further step of becoming a lich. Hmm...if the caster of a simulacrum was killed, but then a necromancer immediately trapped their soul in a jar, probably the simulacrum would continue, at least for a time.
And can a simulacrum make use of his limited-range Key detection ability?
u/thegiantpossum [+3] (a day later)
I think that you may be exactly right about how a lich works. I remember an earlier part of the story, where the alchemist made Zorian the coin to destory the lich, he said that the lich's soul would return to the tether. Meaning that if a soul was anchored somewhere else it might be possible to make a simulacrum that acted as the real body.
u/thrawnca [+5] Carbon-based biped (a day later)
Hmm. Just reread chapter 27, and it seems like yes, a lich's soul is physically located in its body - but firmly anchored to the phylactery, so in the event of disconnection from the possessed body for whatever reason, it snaps back to the anchor.
Presumably things are a little different with a simulacrum, since the soul remains in the caster. A simulacrum's connection to the soul is remote - which might, perhaps, impact on the plan to have an army of mana-assimilating simulacra replenishing your reserves almost instantaneously. On the other hand, it might still work so long as the caster (and thus the soul) remains in an area with plenty of ambient mana.
u/thegiantpossum [+3] (a day later)
That's interesting that the soul can be tossed about like that, implying that the two steps too becoming a lich are being able to create alternate minds for yourself and being able to successfully remove souls from the body. Much like Zorian has had done to him to train his soul sense.
They mentioned a flaw to that ambient mana plan in the chapter. It was that the caster can't just draw directly from ambient mana without the risk of going insane or damaging their body, they have to wait for their soul to assimilate the mana, which takes some time.
u/thrawnca [+5] Carbon-based biped (a day later)
the caster can't just draw directly from ambient mana
No, but see chapter 23, "Apparently there was a way to assimilate ambient mana faster if you sat completely still and focused on doing absolutely nothing else." So it ought to at least be possible for one simulacrum to do some mana meditation while Zorian is busy doing other things (or vice versa).
It's not clear whether there is a hard limit on the soul's assimilation rate, or whether having multiple attached minds would give further benefits.
u/nobody103 [+4] (2 days later)
At the end of the day, there is only one soul assimilating ambient mana, no matter how many minds you dedicate to the task, so no - having multiple simulacrums assigned to assimilate mana wouldn't do anything.
Putting a single simulacrum on top of a mana well or something and dedicating them solely to mana assimilation would work, though. Assuming the simulacrum didn't get bored and walked off to do its own thing, anyway.
u/thrawnca [+3] Carbon-based biped (2 days later)
Fair enough :). Potentially useful, but not sudden omnipotence.
Might be helpful to have one Zorian doing that while the other is in the Black Room; even at 30x time dilation, it's still better than nothing. Though I'm not sure how they'd agree on which one should do which job; one gets a day of meditation, the other gets a month cooped up with Zach, but also gets first dibs on whatever they learn inside. It probably makes more sense for the original to go inside so he can practise shaping.
Do simulacra need to eat?
EDIT: Thinking it through some more, this probably wouldn't work. First, because the Black Room is designed to isolate the inside from the outside, which is likely incompatible with the connection between simulacrum and soul; second, if the original Zorian goes inside, then his soul is in a zero-mana zone, and no amount of meditation will help. Oh well, they have crystals for that.
u/thegiantpossum [+2] (2 days later)
I see that you're right, however we still run into the problem that the bodies need to have souls in order to absorb mana. But perhaps they could use magic in order to transfer it back to Zorian?
u/thrawnca [+3] Carbon-based biped (2 days later)
the bodies need to have souls in order to absorb mana
They are connected to Zorian's soul. They connect to his mana pool (to cast their own spells). Morally speaking, they don't have their own souls, but for the purposes of magical effects, they share the caster's soul.
u/thrawnca [+2] Carbon-based biped (a day later)
the two steps to becoming a lich
Well, don't forget the third and probably most important step: tightly bind your soul to a highly-durable physical object.
u/thegiantpossum [+2] (2 days later)
In this case, a black skeleton of unknown material. Though we don't know what the fallback anchor is.
u/thrawnca [+4] Carbon-based biped (2 days later)
Actually I was referring to the phylactery, which is not exactly a fallback; it's the main anchor. Connecting your soul to a mobile body is highly desirable, but connecting it firmly to the phylactery is essential.
Given that the Ibasans hero-worship QI, I expect that his phylactery is somewhere extremely secure.
u/t3tsubo [+8] (4 hours later)
This simulacrum spell is sounding more and more like kage bunshin no jutsu
u/thrawnca [+14] Carbon-based biped (4 hours later)
Well, it's not as powerful as that. Zorian's mana reserves are small, so he wouldn't be able to make many, and Zach (even after he develops enough of a soul sense) isn't psychic, so he wouldn't be able to retrieve information from them except by having them return in person. Also simulacra can become too independent if you keep them for very long, so you have to re-cast it, further increasing the mana investment needed, and they won't do things you dislike.
But it's definitely a big opportunity for Zorian.
u/Bowbreaker [+4] Solitary Locust (21 hours later)
I'm curious if you could edit the simulacrum to have deliberate imperfections. If mistakes in casting them can cause it then there's no reason for these mistakes not to be replicable on purpose.
Who knows what beings you could summon out of ectoplasm given enough research and training. Maybe imbue them with a memory package and the soul of someone recently deceased, and voila, resurrection.
u/thrawnca [+7] Carbon-based biped (22 hours later)
a memory package and the soul of someone recently deceased
Yeah, you should talk to Sudomir about that...actually, no, you shouldn't. Bad idea.
u/InsaneBranch [+3] (14 hours later)
Indeed. Too bad here Sakura got it with her low chakra, rather than Naruto. Well, I mean, they both got it, but Naruto is surprisingly uninterested.
u/RockLeethal [+4] (a day later)
better comparison would be rock lee
rock lee is always better
u/InsaneBranch [+2] (2 days later)
Maybe. But, the fact is, Time Braid is heavy influence of this. And it's fairly easy to see it too. And once you see it, it's very easy to compare. Zorian = Sakura Zach = Naruto Red Robe = Sasuke (they both got ejected from the loop eventually too) ???? = Hinata.
I'm thinking maybe Damien.
u/RockLeethal [+3] (2 days later)
I see where you're coming from, but I was obligated to say Rock Lee, courtesy of my username. Rock Lee is my hero.
u/kaukamieli [+2] (17 hours later)
Why would he need packets? He can just read their mind.
u/thrawnca [+5] Carbon-based biped (19 hours later)
A few reasons.
First, I would expect better bandwidth, and maybe better transmission fidelity, by having a simulacrum embed a memory packet. Assuming it's a high-quality simulacrum.
Second, I think it would be politically advantageous to have a simulacrum assemble whatever memories are important to it, and package them up for transfer to the next loop. He's been doing this for a bunch of friends and spiders, so it should feel relatively natural to his copy, and might ease its existential angst.
Third, whatever's in a packet, you don't forget.
u/jesyspa [+29] (an hour later)
I wonder if Zorian's small reserves are due to some power we don't yet know about consuming his mana.
u/thrawnca [+33] Carbon-based biped (an hour later)
Well, we already know that he has one magical ability. But he's well within the bell curve, anyway.
u/TaLampaRoger [+13] (12 hours later)
He is well wiithin the bell curve, but if I remember correctly, compared to his brothers (That was both over average) he's quite a bit weaker. It doesn't mean he got a magnitude 16 if he wasn't an empath, as his shaping skills was better than his peers even before the loop and that is tied to your magnitude.
My point is that with mastery of blood magic he could increase his manapool, even if it's "just" to magnitude 9 or 10, by making the ability permanetly use 1 instead of 2,3 or whatever it is using now. As he said in this chapter.
For a low-mana guy like me, every drop of mana is precious.
A base increase of 1 or 2 would increase his manapool by 12.5% or 25%, something I would think Zorian would like quite a bit
u/thrawnca [+10] Carbon-based biped (19 hours later)
The author explained in another comment that inherited powers are already at maximum efficiency.
u/thrawnca [+6] Carbon-based biped (22 hours later)
As I've suggested in another comment, what he might be able to do with blood magic would be to copy Zach's bloodline. Probably a partial copy, if possible, because getting the whole thing would probably harm his shaping skills, which might mess up his mind magic.
u/kaukamieli [+6] (17 hours later)
How could he increase his mana pool with blood magic? He could manufacture a magical bloodline, but that takes from his mana pool. Do you think he could get a bloodline that gives more mana than it takes to make?
u/TaLampaRoger [+6] (17 hours later)
He already got a magical bloodline (Empathy/Open), his brothers got quite a bit more mana than he got, so I infer that his empathy is causing some of his mana to be permanently tied down.
Using blood magic it should be possible to improve on his current empathy, causing it to tie down less of his mana or even increase its potency.
u/kaukamieli [+5] (18 hours later)
By the text it looks like the price is paid on constructing the thing and it depends on skill and materials used. It doesn't even hint on it being modifiable afterwards or removable, not that he would and he probably couldn't rebuild it anyway.
u/bludvein [+23] (an hour later)
Zorian's reserves aren't that small. It's the lower side of average, but there's plenty of people with less mana. His psychic ability probably takes a bit though.
u/None [+13] (2 hours later)
[deleted]
u/SometimesATroll [+20] (3 hours later)
Yeah, but it's possible that the passive effect is constantly leaching a good portion of his mana. While he's close to average anyway, it's likely that some part of his mana is being reserved by his psychic powers.
This also makes sense considering Damien (and maybe Fortov?) are said to have naturally high mana reserves.
u/Bludflag [+2] (8 days later)
Empathy (the passive effect of being Open) is free of charge; active mind magic takes basically a few drops and is his Most Efficient Tool™.
It cost him, though. His telepathic powers, exotic as they may be, were still magic … and like all magic, they used mana to power themselves. His empathy and mind sense didn’t seem to cost him anything that he could detect, and establishing a telepathic link with another was trivial in terms of mana expenditure—even for him, it was so minute as to be unnoticeable.
Source: chapter 32
u/TaLampaRoger [+2] (17 days later)
Being Open permantly binds a part of Zorians mana.
"Ah," Batak said in understanding. "That makes more sense. While I don't condone the man's reaction, it was not entirely unreasonable to believe you have some witch-descended bloodline issue going on with you. Lineages were very important to witches, and they loved inheritable magic abilities. Many of their influential families had some kind of bloodline power to draw on."
Source: Chapter 51.
That said, while the price had to be paid… the size of the price was not set in stone. Depending on the sophistication of the enhancement ritual, the quality of the materials used in the procedure and the skill of the mage conducting it, the enhancement could either cost you half of your maximum mana reserves or a mere tenth of it.
Source: Chapter 62.
u/Bludflag [+2] (17 days later)
I was specifically replying to the idea that using empathy costs Zorian some mana; it does not, but it did bind a part of it.
I might have misread something when I was originally replying—I’d have to check, but I don’t care.
u/themousehunter [+57] Sunshine Regiment (17 minutes later)
You can never read enough books.
u/None [+6] (2 days later)
Relevant flair
u/crivtox [+5] Closed Time Loop Enthusiast (7 hours later)
Reading books males you awesome
u/Empiricist_ [+48] (an hour later)
Having fun isn't hard when you've got a library card! ... Or when the librarians are too dead to stop you from entering. Fun is even easier then.
u/Fredlage [+45] (an hour later)
Very good, seeing Haslush's alcohol to sugar spell reappear this way really cracked me up. I'm interested to see what Zorian is going to use his simulacrum for.
u/-Fender- [+43] (an hour later)
Entertaining Kirielle. And providing plausible deniability. And courting Taiven.
u/FiveColorGoodStuff [+38] mana construct (2 hours later)
You misspelled Akoja.
u/SometimesATroll [+39] (3 hours later)
You misspelled Tinami.
u/GodKiller999 [+35] (4 hours later)
Clearly Raynie is the better choice.
u/reaper7876 [+62] (4 hours later)
Gentlemen, please, he has the simulacrum spell. One Zorian for each of them should suffice.
u/thrawnca [+11] Carbon-based biped (5 hours later)
I had to upvote this :D, but he already had issues meeting with Tinami and Raynie in the same restart when he wasn't dating them. And only one of him can be in class, which could easily become tricky.
u/None [+5] (a day later)
Does he even have enough
penismana for that?
u/DCarrier [+4] (18 hours later)
Why only one? Maybe they'd prefer two or three.
u/abcd_z [+4] (a day later)
This is the only reasonable answer.
u/Xtraordinaire [+6] Team Glimglam (9 hours later)
Only as a means to impress Zach. Which is why I expect this to happen at some point.
u/GodKiller999 [+6] (13 hours later)
Ah, no but seriously, he had better chemistry with her than with any of the other girls.
u/Arno_Nymus [+12] (9 hours later)
Was Tinami the spider loving girl? I totally forgot.
But you probably simply misspelled Kiana.
u/FiveColorGoodStuff [+3] mana construct (3 hours later)
Come now, let's be reasonable
u/JulianWyvern [+8] Wayward Wanderer (2 hours later)
All at the same time presumably
u/thrawnca [+23] Carbon-based biped (2 hours later)
I'm interested to see what Zorian is going to use his simulacrum for.
Anything that involves gathering information, rather than increasing skills, could be a candidate. So, browsing the library (including stealing a pass and getting into restricted areas), helping Kael with alchemy, investigating cultists, that kind of thing. It might be worth equipping his copies (why make only one?) with telepathic relays, so they can report on anything important or call for backup.
I doubt that a simulacrum of Zorian would mind that kind of job, either. They're things he wouldn't mind doing himself if he didn't have other priorities.
u/aeschenkarnos [+22] (3 hours later)
He may be a skilled enough mindmage by now to link them all together into a single constantly updating mind in multiple bodies.
u/thrawnca [+18] Carbon-based biped (3 hours later)
a single constantly-updating mind
I doubt he's quite that skilled.
Keeping regular contact with his simulacrum may be two-edged, depending on its level of mental adjustment. On the one hand, knowing that he'll maintain continuity may make things less stressful for the simulacrum; on the other hand, it will know when he plans to end the spell.
u/narfanator [+21] (4 hours later)
| I doubt he's quite that skilled.
Yes, but, remember when he was attacking all those people in order to get practice reading memories, and why that was hard? How much easier will it be if they're his own memories - and will that be an effective form of practice?
There's part of me that's expecting him to keep a sub-mind for the simalcrum, as some further evolution on the memory packet, which eventually gets built up into a cheese way to both loop more people with them, and to get those people out of the loop.
AFAIK, if he can pull off full sub-mind storage and injection, then the only thing they couldn't carry out of the timeline "in" Zorian would be the soul growth (mana reserves, etc); but, "two is a silly number" - if they can get even one person out after Red Robe, stands to reason they could get two (or more).
u/TimTravel [+8] (5 hours later)
It feels like there'd have to be some limit. The consequences would be very strange if they successfully rescued thousands of people.
u/megazver [+8] (13 hours later)
Strange... but awesome.
u/melmonella [+4] Tremble, o ye mighty, for a new age is upon you (9 hours later)
Total amount of storage in Zorian's head, maybe?
u/minopoked [+2] (22 hours later)
He could use it to combat Red Robe and other lichs, due to soul magic having no effect on simulacrums (because simulacrums lack souls)...
u/thrawnca [+5] Carbon-based biped (23 hours later)
soul magic having no effect on simulacrums (because simulacrums lack souls)
Actually we don't know that.
In terms of moral weight, simulacra don't have their own souls, so they don't count as human beings. But in terms of magical effects, they are connected to the caster's soul, so any soul magic targeted at them might very well hit Zorian.
u/bassicallyboss [+3] (a day later)
They do have their own minds, so they don't lack moral weight (though depending on your theories of morality and self, it might be acceptable to treat them differently than ensouled people). Maybe they can't go to heaven or whatever, but simulacra aren't p-zombies.
u/thrawnca [+2] Carbon-based biped (a day later)
depending on your theories of morality and self
Sorry, should have made clear that I was referring to Alanic's statement on the matter (we don't have any equivalent statements from anyone else).
u/bassicallyboss [+3] (a day later)
Oh, sorry, I managed to miss that he made one, or I probably would have picked up on that. It's interesting to know that that's his view, though. Maybe it means that simulacra are P-zombies after all. It could be the religious order's dogmatic position I suppose, but the priests Zorian has met and Alanic in particular have generally been right about things so far. And in a world where people have souls and can have experiences independent of their bodies, I suppose the theory that soulless minds aren't really conscious becomes much stronger. I'm interested to see what happens with this.
u/thrawnca [+2] Carbon-based biped (4 days later)
Actually, you know what? It wasn't Alanic, it was Batak. But it was a statement of church doctrine, and they're from the same church, so no real difference.
u/bassicallyboss [+2] (4 days later)
I guess I'll go re-read the chapter with Batak. Thanks.
u/noggin-scratcher [+3] I am a happy tree (8 days later)
[Edit: Oh wait, I'm a week late, curse my delayed reading schedule]
I'm interested to see what Zorian is going to use his simulacrum for.
The "end game" that comes to mind for me, is that if they need to gather a bunch of geographically dispersed bits of key (and get all of them in one turn of the loop), it would be awfully convenient to have some additional manpower to go running around the place to grab multiple bits in parallel.
Although, sharing a single Zorian-sized mana pool would be a bit of a tight constraint (unless they send out simulZachra instead)... and given he can teleport to eliminate travel time, it's not necessarily possible to get very much of an advantage by having simulacra get individually "into position" before doing the mana intensive bits in sequence.
Unless of course they're able to devise low-mana strategies for obtaining the MacGuffins, in which case we're back to potentially sending out an army of Zorian clones.
u/Bowbreaker [+3] Solitary Locust (20 hours later)
Who was Haslush again? Remember the chapter in question?
u/megazver [+8] (21 hours later)
The detective who taught Zorian observation skills.
u/None [+18] (7 hours later)
[deleted]
u/Xtraordinaire [+8] Team Glimglam (9 hours later)
Oooh, good one, I didn't spot the 1st one myself. Hehehe.
u/loonyphoenix [+2] (5 days later)
I don't think the first one is intentional, to be honest.
u/Xtraordinaire [+39] Team Glimglam (an hour later)
I guess simulacrums having no souls means an end for Red Robe is Zach's rebellious simulacrum theory. Even though simulacrums can rebel, no soul = no looping.
Unless it wasn't a real simulacrum but rather one of those fake spells Alanic mentioned.
Now that the rules of blood magic are outlined it doesn't seem that OP. No stealing bloodlines, and no chance to hijack the time loop marker either. Booooooooring. Well, not boring, but... Not OP, 3/10 would not recommend using unless you want to start a new bloodline.
Also as I understand it is implied that Zach had enormous mana reserves even before the loop and it's not Noved bloodline (he makes a convincing argument). However if the effects of Noveda bloodline are distributed between members of his house, Zach's argument turns against him. Novedas weren't freakishly powerful mana-wise because they enjoyed only a moderate boost when there were even 10 of them. Concentrate that for the sole heir of the house and boom! Huge mana reserve. Buuuut bloodlines probably don't work like that.
u/bludvein [+30] (an hour later)
It seems quite possible to steal a bloodline with blood magic based on the mechanics, but just those particular books didn't cover it.
u/thrawnca [+25] Carbon-based biped (2 hours later)
No stealing bloodlines
Actually the author confirmed on Patreon that you could copy someone else's soul sight this way, so it seems likely that you could copy bloodline powers too.
u/nobody103 [+29] (9 hours later)
Most enhancement rituals straight up copy traits and abilities from magical creatures. And I just explained in this chapter that humans with magical powers are no different from magical creatures.
So yeah, you could totally copy bloodlines with blood magic. I didn't explicitly say so, but you totally can.
u/Green0Photon [+16] Student in Cyoria, Minmay, and Ranvar (14 hours later)
Thus, Zorian is actually part-spider.
u/None [+7] (2 days later)
[deleted]
u/literal-hitler [+3] (6 days later)
Does whatever a spider can, if you will.
u/kaukamieli [+2] (17 hours later)
"Fighting the undead and necromancy is definitely one of the priestly duties, especially for a warrior priest like Alanic."
This was a fancy info for this exact chapter. :D
u/Terkala [+14] (7 hours later)
What if the noveda bloodline is getting the mana reserve "from" somewhere? Like saying "half of this dragon/demigod/artifacts mana is redirected to all living members of the noveda bloodline". That would explain how the mana capacity is paid for, and why it concentrates when the family dies off.
If he is blood linked to get his mana from another human family, like a nonmagical servant family, that could explain red robe getting mistaken by the guardian. The blood links two mage families together by blood, making one nonmagical and one supermagical. By infiltrating that link, one could pass as being that person to a non sentient guardian. Though I am less confident of this secondary theory.
u/Xtraordinaire [+5] Team Glimglam (15 hours later)
Well that sort of external battery that Novedas share access to was more or less the idea, yeah. But that sounds more like some divine blessing rather than a bloodline that is more inherent to genetics: someone other than Novedas is responsible for creation and maintnance of that battery. Similarly, someone could destroy the source and Novedas would lose power even without formally losing access. So I wouldn't call it a bloodline, more like house blessing.
edit: buuut then Novedas were in possession of a truly unique artifact probably of divine origins. Maybe their house was given some divine favors.
u/Bowbreaker [+3] Solitary Locust (21 hours later)
The bloodline could be a marker that grants them access or maybe even the very ability required to keep a link to said hypothetical artifact. Siphoning mana from god knows where over a vast distance can't be that easy even with explicit permission.
u/Kodix [+12] (8 hours later)
I guess simulacrums having no souls means an end for Red Robe is Zach's rebellious simulacrum theory. Even though simulacrums can rebel, no soul = no looping.
I'm thinking the opposite. I had never considered (or heard of) this theory before now, and this chapter made it feel as if it was being hammered into my head.
I think the reason for Zach's large mana reserves is because he had/has a long-term simulacrum using his mana. Note how he mentions that he has exactly twice the mana his shaping skills would suggest.
Also, note that since Red Robe has no soul of his own, the search spell Zorian cast would naturally only find Zach.
I don't think there's any doubt Zach would summon a long-term simulacrum - he clearly hadn't considered the dangers this time around, he wouldn't do so before. And the soul/looping issue is something he would have to solve in order to make a truly long-term companion for his looping, anyway.
I'm now thinking it very likely indeed that Red Robe is Zach's simulacrum that wiped his memory. Though questions as to the exact mechanisms of how it intends to escape the time loop remain, of course.
u/Xtraordinaire [+6] Team Glimglam (17 hours later)
Also, note that since Red Robe has no soul of his own, the search spell Zorian cast would naturally only find Zach.
The search spell targeted the marker. Without it a simulacrum would not be able to access the Gate and escape, period. The weird results of the search spell are explained by RR escaping before Zorian mastered it.
u/-Fender- [+11] (an hour later)
As far as we know, Zorian is the only natural mind mage in his immediate family. Not his father, not his mother (who is most likely to have passed on the ability to Zorian), not Kirielle, and not Fortov. The only other potential candidate that could have it in his family would be Daimen and his grandmother, but we've yet to meet either of them inside the time loop.
So even if the outrageous mana reserves were a Noveda bloodline ability, it's entirely possible that it could be only randomly occurring one like Zorian's, and that the dormant version is either a very slight increased reserve, or completely imperceptible one that would be contained within the normally occurring variance in reserves.
u/GlueBoy [+7] anti-skub (an hour later)
I still think a rogue simulacrum could conceivably do some soul-magic mojo and overwrite/possess someone's body and soul. Additionally, do the people within the loop actually have souls, identically to those without? Seeing as it's a simulation, that could be an important technicality.
u/thrawnca [+16] Carbon-based biped (2 hours later)
do the people within the loop actually have souls
Yes. Otherwise Zorian wouldn't have one.
u/thrawnca [+3] Carbon-based biped (22 hours later)
overwrite/possess someone's body and soul
Irrelevant. No matter what you do to a non-Controller soul, it gets thrown away at the end of the month and a new one is created from the template.
And if you're saying that a simulacrum devised a way to replicate Zach's marker, well, it would have all the same problems as any other suspect, plus it would mean that Zach must have previously known a lot of mind magic and soul magic.
u/Keshire [+3] (2 hours later)
Considering that the mana they use comes from the original caster, I wouldn't be surprised if soul related stuff does the same. So any soul magic used by or aimed at it automatically targets the original user. Despite the simulcrum not having an actual soul.
u/GlueBoy [+3] anti-skub (2 hours later)
Maybe that's what nobody103 is foreshadowing in this chapter by mentioning both the simulacrum and Zach's prodigious mana reserves: its actually some weird interaction between the simulacrum and its soul-host (Veyers) which is behind zach's unnaturally massive mana pool!
/tinfoil
u/Gurkenglas [+7] (3 hours later)
Then it wouldn't have started before the loop.
u/throwawayIWGWPC [+2] (2 hours later)
Agreed. What's odd is that it seems very out of character for a copy of Zach to act that way. Then again, we don't know how Zach's simulacrum would really react, plus the Zach we know has been mentally altered.
u/Kodix [+2] (8 hours later)
As you say he has been mentally altered, and it has been made very clear in this chapter by Alanic that the simulacrum reacts to a situation the way the original person would - what would original Zach do when he found out that only one person would be making it out of the time loop, and it wasn't him?
u/throwawayIWGWPC [+2] (6 days later)
What would original Zach do when he found out that only one person would be making it out of the time loop, and it wasn't him?
His reaction might be that both people should find a way out. But if one of those people were a simulacrum, my guess is most people would probably not value the "right to life" of the simulacrum.
Red Robe as Zac's simulacrum is a possibility if there is some way to get a semblance of a soul. I still feel simulacrum!Zac would be pretty genial, but it's possible he might have, for example, incorporated the soul of Veyers somehow, leaving him somehow unhinged.
The main issue is that simulacrum!Zac has only one loop to get a soul and a marker. However, the original looper can add people to the loop, and would know the other functions of the Sovereign Gate. This knowledge might have been enough to allow simulacrum!Zac to make himself a looper.
- Zac creates a simulacrum.
- Zac and Simulacrum find him a soul somehow.
- Simulacrum marks its soul for temporary looping.
- Simulcarum makes the mark permanent.
With Zac's prestige and power, simulacrum!Zac may have been able to swing all this.
u/throwawayIWGWPC [+2] (6 days later)
I believe the Sovereign Gate actually creates and destroys souls.
To be honest, I was banking against this possibility from the start, but the author went in that direction. I'm not saying it's a bad direction—it just wasn't my pet theory because the alternatives created interesting complexity to the mechanics of the Sovereign Gate, meanwhile preserving the indestructibility of the soul, which I liked for some reason.
u/MaxDougwell [+6] (8 hours later)
There are a few ways I could see a time-looping simulacrum, and after this chapter I'm back to thinking that is what's going on. It depends on stuff like how hard it is to change your "starting point" in the loop (Zach's real body is touching the Gate but his loop-self wakes up in bed, so it's possible), if simulacrums have read-write access to the shared soul, how hard it is to duplicate a soul and other minor quirks of how the Gate handles edge cases.
But the real important stuff here is the information about simulacrum being half of what's needed to become a lich. Between that, comments made about spirits and the one time we've seen a simulacrum burst, I'm pretty sure you can transfer your soul into one, effectively making it your "prime body" instead of having it be a spin-off self. So long as Zorian can reach the point where he can cast simulacrum as a soul (thanks to endless shaping exercises) and keep his soul from passing on for a few seconds (not yet, but with further out-of-body practise…) he has a solution to his lack of a body when escaping the time loop.
u/Xtraordinaire [+7] Team Glimglam (14 hours later)
I'd like to see where you're drawing the conclusion that realworld!Zach is physically touching the Gate. We don't even know if Zach is the original looper, though it seems likely. But even if he is, the loop mechanics imply nothing of the sort. The only thing we can reasonably assume is that realworld!Zach (if he is indeed the original gate user) has a marker on his soul and that someone activated the Gate and we know there are some agents (angels, most likely) that have that power. As for the looper, nothing is needed besides the marker itself.
Unlike any other cases, the simulacrum has exactly one month to and one attempt to rebel, subdue Zach, craft himself a soul and get himself a copy marker, then erase Zach's soul magic skills (remember, Zach can not cast the spell, he'll need more lessons from Alanic). That's just too complex for my taste.
The competing theory that Zach being a careless goof that he is, told a high ranking cultist about time loop and paid dearly for it is much simpler. Cultists are necromancers check, cultists dabble in mind magic check (the want to subdue a primordial!), cultists are in secret high ranking officials check, Zach told multiple higher ups about the invasion check.
u/None [+6] (2 hours later)
[deleted]
u/ZeroNihilist [+2] (a day later)
What if he's drawing power from his non-looping self? Zorian also is stronger than he should be, isn't he? It might be a property of the marker or something.
u/thrawnca [+2] Carbon-based biped (2 days later)
Zorian is also stronger than he should be
No, he's just highly trained. Not every mage practises magic missile until it's reflexive, and very few bother to perfect it and make it transparent. Given that level of practice, and thus unusual efficiency, his mana reserve growth is pretty normal.
u/ZeroNihilist [+2] (2 days later)
Hm, in hindsight I think I made the assumption from chapter 46:
In fact, [Zorian's magic missile] was so mana-efficient at this point that it was playing merry hell with his ability to judge how far his mana reserves had grown. He could cast about 35 of them in quick succession, which was more than four times the amount he could cast before the time loop – that shouldn't be possible, especially since he was sure his mana reserves still hadn't topped out yet, so the most logical conclusion was that his magic missiles required significantly less mana now than they had in the past.
I noted the flawed logic ("I can cast 4× more MM than I could, therefore they must be 4× more efficient than they were") and assumed that at least part of the disparity was from an increase in mana capacity.
I don't recall the story contradicting that in later chapters—it largely veered away from hard numbers about his capacity—but I admit that I'd forgotten my initial reasoning for my conclusion, which led to me thinking it was justified in the text itself.
Frankly, if there is such an extraordinary variance in the efficiency of magic missile then its use as a basis for an objective ranking for capacity is minimal, as Zorian himself noted. If that's truly the best method then we can't be sure that Zach is magnitude 50 either; though his missiles are at the very least far less efficient than Zorian's, they may still be more efficient than the average mage (and the fact that shaping skills, tied indirectly to efficiency, are related to capacity further compounds the issue).
u/thrawnca [+2] Carbon-based biped (2 days later)
Yeah, the author has confirmed that you can't really separate the growth in reserves from the increase in efficiency, so estimating is rough.
u/monkyyy0 [+2] (2 hours later)
What if red robe was a rouge simulacrum that grew to hate zach enough to try to end the loop even though it would kill it?
u/thrawnca [+7] Carbon-based biped (2 hours later)
grew to hate zach enough to try to end the loop
That doesn't fit RR's actions. He overpowered Zach once in front of Zorian, but didn't bother doing him any lasting harm, just obtained some information and went off to deal with (what he thought was) his competition for exploiting the loop. So, he cared about looping, and didn't care much about Zach.
u/Lajamerr_Mittesdine [+15] Q Continuum (32 minutes later)
The problem with excessively using time dilation chamber is that you age right? Go in a young man, come out an old man.
But with this time loop couldn't they try and figure out a way to spend more time inside? Increase the time dilation ratio.
They need as much time, practice, and planning as possible.
u/bludvein [+25] (38 minutes later)
They are already at maximum dilation for current technology. The only way to get more time is if they get access to black rooms elsewhere on the continent or build their own. It would also be possible to increase the dilation if they made a pocket dimension, but that might get a bit wonky within the loop's mechanics. Kind of like a space bag inside a space bag.
Probably not good for their sanity if they use it too many times though.
u/SometimesATroll [+16] (41 minutes later)
The loop itself probably isn't much better for their sanity, and Zach's doing fine.
For a certain definition of "fine" at least.
u/InfernoVulpix [+22] (an hour later)
Zach's spent most of his time all over the world, finding all sorts of interesting things to do and try. Even Zorian's gone many places and met many people along the time loop.
The black rooms are just ...rooms. There's nothing in them except each other and, for the most part, books. For Zach, who's not fond of reading, there's basically nothing interesting at all to do. Even for Zorian, though, you can only do so much reading before you start itching to go do something else. And in this room, there is nothing else.
u/thrawnca [+7] Carbon-based biped (an hour later)
Well, even if they have to have a days-long "back in the real world" party every time, they would still win on balance.
Maybe they can bring some timed lights to help their circadian rhythms. And practice some mundane skills, like martial arts or maybe cooking (although they'd need to be careful with smoke), to break up the monotony.
u/braiam [+5] (42 minutes later)
And probably trigger a restart like when the primordial was "summoned".
u/GodKiller999 [+4] (13 hours later)
The thing with the loop is that it works just like the real world beside for the spiritual plane being disconnected, so I don't think something like a pocket dimension would be unavailable.
u/GlueBoy [+23] anti-skub (an hour later)
My somewhat discarded theory of red robe being a rogue simulacrum of some sort has come back full-force. What are the chances that Zach's simulacrum mind wiped Zach of knowledge of himself and then possessed Veyers' body?
As is, Veyers is IMO not a particularly compelling antagonist. That could change as we learn more about him, I suppose, but having Zach's "evil twin" be the true arch-nemesis would be way more interesting. Especially if actual Zach has some kind of sleeper agent thing going on, which would explain the really odd ignorance he has of a time traveller's few vulnerabilities early on in the story, when Zorian was still playing possum.
u/Xtraordinaire [+10] Team Glimglam (18 hours later)
I think it's the chapter that really kills this theory, not reinforces it.
No soul = no looping. No other magical spell or effect persists through the resets, so UNLESS there is some narrativium injection, neither should simulacrums. In other words, Zach and Zorian will have to recast simulacrums each month. Your theory means that Zach (who is presently unable to cast it) mastered soul awareness, mastered and cast the spell, creating a simulacrum that successfully rebelled within one month, mind wiped Zach, skill wiped Zach, and gained a soul and a marker to not be erased by the loop. That's a tall order, especially that only perfect simulacrums rival their masters, and it doesn't seem that Zach was dabbling in mind magic to begin with.
The competing theories are way less complex.
u/thrawnca [+4] Carbon-based biped (22 hours later)
No soul = no looping
The theory is that the rogue simulacrum overwrote Veyers.
However, this still has the flaw that Veyers, not being a Controller, would be wiped and replaced from the template in the next reset.
u/MoralRelativity [+3] (7 hours later)
You're making sense.
u/None [+3] (10 hours later)
But simlucrums have no souls, so soul= no looping. Unless you are saying some vodoo soul possess of Veyers or something.
u/-Fender- [+9] (an hour later)
##All the typos I found.
Zorian hummed thoughtfully. That... what a good point.
Zorian hummed thoughtfully. That... was a good point.
"And my shaping skill skills are good enough [...]
"And my shaping skills are good enough [...]
Or at least the diagnostic half of it.
Or at least, the diagnostic half of it.
[...], not just your body. You get use them to map the flow of energies [...]
You use them to map the flow [...]
"Come on," Zorian said, motioned Zach to follow him.
"Come on," Zorian said, motioning Zach to follow him.
"[...] especially when things get rest once a month,"
"[...] especially when things get reset once a month,"
OR
"[...] especially when everything gets reset once a month,"
I guess me and Zorian will continue out search for the simulacrum spell.
I guess me and Zorian will continue our search for the simulacrum spell.
I'm sure I encountered it somewhere in the past but I just can't seem to find it. Why is a spell like that so rare anyway?
I'm sure I encountered it somewhere in the past, but I just can't seem to find it. Why is a spell like that so rare, anyway?
[...] I should be looking for the spells primarily among groups of [...]
[...] be looking for the spell primarily among [...]
instead he sent a some kind of magical pulse into [...]
instead he sent some kind of [...]
[...] that they are a copy of a person, which cases their simulacrums to [...]
[...] that they are a copy of a person, which causes their simulacrums to [...]
Zach looked at him funny, [...]
Zach looked at him funnily,
[...]I never tried that myself. If nothing else just so I can say [...]
[...]myself. If nothing else, just so [...]
[...] had long since fled the building in the light of the invasion.
[...] fled the building in light of the invasion.
u/None [+4] (10 hours later)
[deleted]
u/Bludflag [+3] (8 days later)
The alternative doesn’t really matter when you use native plurals; people are used to them and they’re generally preferable. Cf. Merriam-Webster’s dictionary.
EDIT: Not that’re you’re wrong—simulacra is the preferred plural, it’s just that I thought this was worth the clarification. This is also evident by how simulacrums was on second place in the dictionary; generally, the preferred form gets the first place while honorable mentions get
to suck a dicksecond place.
u/torac [+2] (15 hours later)
the only evidence of the impact with the chunk of crystalized mana currently floating in the center of the watery sphere
the impact was
u/protagnostic [+11] (an hour later)
If magical creatures can sustain themselves with ambient mana, why can't mages? Or if mages CAN sustain enhancements with ambient mana, why can't they safely cast spells with it?
Is it possible to construct an enhancement that runs on natural mana, or better yet one that sanitizes natural mana for spellcasting use?
u/thrawnca [+16] Carbon-based biped (5 hours later)
one that sanitizes natural mana for spellcasting use
Hang on, can a simulacrum do that? It's linked to the same soul, and has essentially the same skills, so I would think it can?
And...we know that there is a running mana cost to maintain a simulacrum, but we also know that it's not large, because it's possible (however inadvisable) to maintain a simulacrum for days. Whereas a mage in Cyoria can fill up his/her reserves in a few hours, even less with concentration and the right technique (which Xvim taught to Zorian).
So a simulacrum in an area with plenty of ambient mana could in theory represent a net mana gain...which means that the only obstacle to using multiple simulacra would be the politics...and with enough of them, you could assimilate ambient mana as fast as you could expend it...
Am I missing something here?
u/None [+5] (17 hours later)
[deleted]
u/None [+3] (18 hours later)
[deleted]
u/None [+3] (20 hours later)
[deleted]
u/throwawayIWGWPC [+2] (17 days later)
And if Zach, Alanic, and Xvim can learn simulacrum, then they could have several copies simultaneously collect the Gate keys in a very short period.
- Each team teleports to the location near the key.
- They all rest up to regain all the mana.
- If they have enough mana to get two or more keys simultaneously, then great. Otherwise, they do short rests in between attempts, allowing for each person's soul to regenerate to full. It would still allow them to get all the keys in one day and with minimal rests due to casting teleport five times.
They could just forgo the simulacrums and teleport between each site, however seeing how the Royal guards tracked Zorian and Zach, using simulacrum to steal the artifact, hide it somewhere, and then die might be safer.
u/thrawnca [+2] Carbon-based biped (19 hours later)
Actually, Alanic said that the simulacrum is tied to the caster's soul, which is why it can cast spells.
And we know that it's possible to increase the assimilation rate with the right focus. Xvim taught Zorian that.
So, a simulacrum sitting in the Hole and meditating should represent a net mana gain.
Or, if it objects to that idea on the grounds that it's boring, Zorian can do the meditating himself and send the simulacrum out to do the dangerous work. Or they can take shifts.
u/None [+2] (20 hours later)
[deleted]
u/thrawnca [+3] Carbon-based biped (20 hours later)
Simulacra are definitely attached to the caster's mana pool, which is part of the soul. They use it to cast spells. If they can draw from it, why wouldn't they be able to fill it?
They don't have their own souls, and their dispersal doesn't release a soul (so priests don't count it as a human death), but their connection to the caster's soul seems not unlike the caster's own connection. They just have more tenuous bodies, maintained by mana, that's all.
u/None [+2] (20 hours later)
[deleted]
u/thrawnca [+2] Carbon-based biped (20 hours later)
Well, for further evidence: if creating an ectoplasmic simulacrum body is halfway to creating a lich body, then it seems probable that the connection between simulacrum and soul resembles the connection between lich and soul. And the author has stated on his blog that there is no loss of power by becoming a lich, so surely liches can assimilate ambient mana.
Of course, if having an army of mana-assimilating simulacra was not anticipated and would be a story-breaker, then it would be reasonable for the author to declare that the simulacrum connection is more limited than the lich connection and only allows one-way mana flow. But at this point we've been given no reason to think so.
u/Nickoalas [+2] (3 days later)
The easy solution is to have the original sitting on a mana well and the simulacrum out doing the dirty work and spending the shared mana pool.
u/thrawnca [+2] Carbon-based biped (3 days later)
Well, that is certainly safest. But if the simulacrum would rather do the boring work, that's probably OK too. Remember, it's not a perfect copy, so for difficult tasks, the original is probably better prepared. It's a win for the team either way.
u/throwawayIWGWPC [+1] (17 days later)
If I were a simulacrum of Zorian, give me some stuff to spell formulas to work on, a bunch of food, a decent chair, and a wide table, and I'd definitely hang out at a mana well all day so Original!Zorian could battle the main guys for a bit.
Just promise me you'll come back and steal all my memories so I'm not working for nothing. I would be totally fine dying after that because, in all the important ways, I wouldn't really be dying.
u/throwawayIWGWPC [+2] (17 days later)
The author already verified what thrawnca is saying is possible.
And this may be a good metaphor for understanding why that could work.
u/None [+2] (17 days later)
[deleted]
u/throwawayIWGWPC [+2] (17 days later)
Out of curiosity, what is WoG?
Edit: Word of God. Derp ;)
u/protagnostic [+2] (5 days later)
u/throwawayIWGWPC [+2] (17 days later)
Multiple simulacra probably do not increase the amount of mana that can be assimilated. I think nobody103 mentioned this in the comments on the world-building page.
Imagine that a body has a virtual pipe that attaches to the soul. A simulucrum has its own pipe. If Z is Zorian and S is his simulacrum, then . . .
Z S ╚═╦═╝ ║ ║ The width of the pipe HERE determines mana regen rate. SoulIf the above diagram is a good metaphor for how this works, a simulacrum sitting at the bottom of the mana well would increase mana regeneration to Zorian in a mana-poor environment. However, this mana regeneration rate would still be Zorian's natural maximum rate.
u/thrawnca [+2] Carbon-based biped (17 days later)
Yes, the author replied elsewhere in this thread. You're correct; one simulacrum could maximise his rate, more wouldn't help.
u/thrawnca [+8] Carbon-based biped (2 hours later)
an enhancement that runs on natural mana
Such an enhancement would probably not be tied to your soul, and so I'd think it wouldn't have much advantage over simply constructing a magical item.
u/TimTravel [+5] (2 hours later)
If I understand your question, I think mages do, by naturally turning ambient mana into personal mana at a safe rate.
u/thrawnca [+10] Carbon-based biped (3 hours later)
Presumably you would only be able to design a magical enhancement that does something you already know how to do, just like with golem creation.
So, I guess the advantages of making it an enhancement ritual would be that you can use it faster, more reliably, maybe unconsciously (eg with fast healing). You'd definitely only want to use it on things that you cast all the time.
Or for powers (like soul sight) that you're able to copy from others, but wouldn't know how to cast as regular spells. Clearly the Noveda bloodline, if it exists, is not a regular enhancement, since it massively increases mana reserves rather than tying them up.
Incidentally, if it is indeed feasible to copy bloodline powers through blood magic, then that bloodline would be amazingly valuable to any blood mage. They wouldn't even necessarily have to be evil; I'm sure there are non-fatal ways to use blood magic on a willing target.
u/thrawnca [+2] Carbon-based biped (19 hours later)
So what does everyone think: will Zorian want to copy Zach's mana reserves, or not? Massively useful, of course, but he would probably lose his mastery of shaping, and who knows what that would do to his mind magic.
I wonder whether he could copy that bloodline incrementally? You apparently get an unusually good power-to-control ratio, so even a little of it would be nice to have.
And if Zach gets over his squeamishness, he could really load up. Soul sight from Kael, mind magic from Zorian, and if the Alanic Boranova theory is correct, maybe fire magic. Any other powers I've forgotten held by potentially-willing donors?
And do you think Zorian might even learn how to stabilize Veyers?
u/throwawayIWGWPC [+2] (17 days later)
Alternatively, the Noveda bloodline could be improved mana assimilation. This would look very similar to increased mana reserves because mana regenerates as a percentage of the individual's total mana pool.
Thus, maybe Zach was at a 27 naturally, his bloodline brings him down to 25, but then allows him to regenerate mana as if he had 50.
u/thrawnca [+2] Carbon-based biped (17 days later)
Interesting theory, but I don't think it can explain Zach's reserves adequately.
Zach told Zorian he can cast 232 magic missiles before he runs out. That's pretty specific, not just a guess. Therefore he has tested it.
Now, according to your theory, he was rapidly regenerating mana during the test, throwing off the results. However, if he was concentrating on casting magic missile, then that regeneration would just be the passive soul-generates-mana-from-nothing, not assimilating ambient mana. According to the latest world-building post, that normally takes about nine hours, so our enhanced Zach would take 4.5 hours.
How long is the test? We know he can cast it reflexively, and presumably he tested after reaching that level of proficiency. Let's generously assume he casts every five seconds (it's probably much faster, not even counting swarms). At that rate, he takes just under 20 minutes to cast 232 missiles and exhaust himself. Not nearly enough time for his regeneration to give the impression that his reserves were twice as big as they really are. He would need to regenerate as if he were over magnitude 600 to throw his test results out that far.
u/throwawayIWGWPC [+2] (17 days later)
Good point. I'm not sure how, but I was under the impression that regeneration to full happened in two hours.
Even at two hours, the 19-odd minutes to cast the 232 missiles would not give an apparent doubling of his reserves. So much for that theory. ;)
u/thrawnca [+1] Carbon-based biped (23 days later)
A moderately skilled mage could regenerate in two hours by assimilating ambient mana, assuming there is plenty available. A skilled mage focusing exclusively on mana assimilation could regenerate in 30 minutes. But not while continuously casting magic missile.
u/Cheese_Ninja [+9] (4 hours later)
Zach says he's a natural magnitude 50 with the shaping skills of a natural magnitude 25.
I'd been wondering if it was possible for Zorian to merge his loop soul with his real soul, I think this makes it a lot more likely. I assume that Zach's soul was duplicated initially just like everyone else, the Guardian then merged his actual soul into the loop soul.
Possibly, if Zorian's real and loop souls are merged, it will double the strength/range of his natural mental magics as well, since those are an aspect of his soul. Zorian's a base 8, with the black room, he'll probably hit his max of 32, upon leaving he might be either a 40 or a 64, depending on how it works.
u/thrawnca [+14] Carbon-based biped (4 hours later)
I assume that Zach's soul was duplicated initially just like everyone else, the Guardian then merged his actual soul into the loop soul.
No, if you re-read chapter 55, you'll see that this isn't the case. The Guardian explained that the Controller is not a copy, and that is why it's OK for him (or her) to leave the loop: there is an empty body waiting for the Guardian to re-anchor the original soul.
u/Cheese_Ninja [+6] (5 hours later)
That's not exactly what I'm saying. I think Zach was copied initially, and then his non-loop soul was removed and merged with the loop-soul, he's not a copy anymore, and his actual body is empty of a soul. So in Zorian's case, the copy soul (the one we've always seen) could be added to the actual soul.
u/SlasherX [+4] (6 hours later)
There's no reason to create a loop soul in the first place though, the Controller can just create a loop-body for the original soul inside of the loop.
u/Cheese_Ninja [+10] (8 hours later)
I think it's easier for the Sovereign's Gate to just copy everything, including the Controller's soul. There's no reason for it exclude it, since it could just get overwritten or combined with the real world soul, depending on the mechanism of transfer from the real world and insertion of the original soul into the loop. And in this case, I'm assuming combination instead of an overwrite. Why not give the Controller one more advantage while they're inside the world of the Sovereign's Gate?
If the souls are combined, it neatly explains Zach's comment about his actual natural reserves (50 magnitude) vs his natural shaping skills (25 magnitude) this chapter.
If Zach is anything like Zorian, he probably didn't have a good grasp on the size of his reserves before this year. Zorian was a better student, and he didn't seem that aware of what his natural reserves were, or how the maximum increases after years of usage. So I don't think Zach actually knew what his reserves were before the loop. He's not particularly clear about it in his conversation with Zorian this chapter.
I think it makes more sense than Zach's reserves being some heretofore unknown bloodline ability of the Noveda family. Bloodline abilities seem to just that: "abilities". Not much like a doubling of mana reserves.
u/thrawnca [+3] Carbon-based biped (19 hours later)
The Guardian made it quite clear that the Controller's soul is not a copy. Chapter 55.
u/Cheese_Ninja [+2] (22 hours later)
I'm not saying that Zach is a copy, I'm just saying that his soul was copied, just like everything else in the world was copied, and then his soul from outside the loop was merged into it.
Nothing the Guardian said seemed to exclude that possibility.
"Because only the Controller has their real soul pulled into the time loop," the Guardian said. "Everyone else is a copy. For a Controller of the loop to leave, I only have to re-anchor their soul back to their original body. For one of the copies to enter the real world, I would have to switch their soul with the soul of the original. This would effectively kill the original."
Hell, there could even be a function of the Marker that allows the fusion of souls, instead of the Guardian doing anything itself.
u/thrawnca [+6] Carbon-based biped (23 hours later)
Er...it seems to me like this theory is ignoring the plain meaning of the Guardian's statement ("the Controller has their real soul pulled into the time loop. Everyone else is a copy."), and replacing it with an idea ("his soul was copied, just like everything else in the world was copied, and then his soul from outside the loop was merged into it") that is unsupported by evidence.
u/Cheese_Ninja [+2] (a day later)
Everything in the world was copied, why not the Controller's soul too?
The Guardian's AI wasn't designed with clarity in mind when communicating with people as a high priority (as far as I can tell), so I don't think the "plain meaning" of its statements should be taken at face value. "Everyone else is a copy." (Guardian's chapter 55 statement) doesn't preclude "Everyone is copied." (my theory), because the Guardian already told us that the Controller's original soul is brought in to the loop. If it was combined with the copy soul, the Guardian would no longer consider the Controller "a copy".
And Zach has twice the mana reserves he should for the degree of mana control he has, it's not undeniable evidence, but it is evidence in my favor.
u/Nickoalas [+3] (3 days later)
"For one of the copies to enter the real world, I would have to switch their soul with the soul of the original. This would effectively kill the original."
Implies the Guardian does not have the ability to merge souls, but only to replace them.
Still... exactly double. I do believe there's some soul merging going on here.
Edit: Actually, on the way out the souls are no longer identical like they were on the way in... We may have something here.
u/Cheese_Ninja [+3] (3 days later)
Alternatively, the Guardian doesn't have the ability to merge the souls, but the Marker itself does. The Guardian really can't do anything with the copies' souls besides swapping them out. After some thought, I think it makes more sense for Marker to have that ability, since it is constructed deeply into the soul.
Also, the Marker itself must modify the world template in regards to the Controller's soul, similar to the "soulkill" function, that would explain why Zorian isn't constantly placed into a body that already has a soul in it at the beginning of each loop. Not especially relevant to this, outside of supporting the argument that the Guardian never actually takes a soul out a body to put it "nowhere", or modifies the template itself to delete the initial Controller's (Zach's) soul.
And I think Zorian will have a huge headache after leaving the loop, since his soul has accumulated a bunch of experiences inside the loop, merging it with his original soul would probably be a lot worse than for a Controller's soul entering the loop. He might want to stay away from any enhancement rituals while inside the loop as well.
u/thrawnca [+3] Carbon-based biped (17 days later)
Actually, it would make sense for the Guardian to have logic saying, Only copy a soul if it isn't already stored in the Gate. Remember, it actually does anticipate having multiple loopers, it just doesn't expect multiple Controllers.
u/Cheese_Ninja [+2] (17 days later)
I'm not sure if that should be the responsibility of the Guardian or the Marker itself.
Is the Guardian really responsible for overseeing template and its copies? Its title is "Guardian of the Threshold" after all, I'm not sure it has any duties besides the answering some questions, overseeing the connection between the Sovereign's Gate and the real world, and transferring the Controller's soul at the beginning and end of the loop.
Stopping the soul duplication at the beginning of the loop might be a function of the Marker, or the temporary marker in the case of anyone the Controller brings in.
u/thrawnca [+2] Carbon-based biped (17 days later)
I really don't think that the marker would have the degree of responsibility that you're assuming. It isn't smart. Mostly it just seems to send signals to trigger Gate functions. The most advanced independent thing we know about is the Key detection, and that is a relatively simple feature. Anything that involves manipulating and swapping souls would almost certainly be handled at a higher level.
The Guardian's statements make clear that it is capable of anchoring and de-anchoring souls at will, monitoring them for damage and possibly other conditions, triggering new iterations, and in general carrying out complex logic. Also, we know that it has been given an overarching imperative: protect the source of the template from everything within the loop. It's the logical place for decisions about which souls go where.
u/throwawayIWGWPC [+2] (17 days later)
Also, the Marker itself must modify the world template in regards to the Controller's soul, similar to the "soulkill" function, that would explain why Zorian isn't constantly placed into a body that already has a soul in it at the beginning of each loop.
This is a good counter-point against your theory in general. If the marker prevents the Gate from copying a person's soul, then it should have prevented Zach's soul from getting copied (then merged with his original soul).
I still like this theory, but
"Because only the Controller has their real soul pulled into the time loop," the Guardian said. "Everyone else is a copy.
suggests to me that the marker's soul is probably not duplicated and merged by the Gate. Maybe Original!Zach found a different way to double his soul. 50 mana for the control of 25 mana is very suspicious.
u/thrawnca [+2] Carbon-based biped (17 days later)
Actually, it would make sense for the Guardian to have logic saying, Only copy a soul if it isn't already stored in the Gate. Remember, it actually does anticipate having multiple loopers, it just doesn't expect multiple Controllers.
u/kaukamieli [+2] (17 hours later)
Are you implying Zach is not the original looper?
u/Cheese_Ninja [+2] (22 hours later)
No, I think even the original looper has their soul copied, it's just that since the Controller's actual soul is drawn in as well (and then fused to the copy soul), the Guardian doesn't consider them a copy.
u/throwawayIWGWPC [+2] (17 days later)
I forget the guardian's exact wording, but this might be possible. From a practical standpoint, having their original soul temporarily (or permanently) merged with a copy would allow the looper to practice twice as intensely inside the loop as outside of it. I'm not sure how feasible soul merging is, but it's a neat explanation of Zach's reserves.
u/None [+26] (57 minutes later)
Never shipped anyone before but... Zorian/Zach OTP.
u/Iconochasm [+34] (an hour later)
I'm cheerfully imagining the eventual epic bromance between the two legendary archmages. Their story begins when two third year students suddenly wipe the floor with a lich-led invasion, then proceed to rampage across the continent making sarcastic quips to each other, before showing up to Zorian's parent's house for the equivalent of Christmas dinner like it was the most natural thing in the world.
u/megazver [+9] (8 hours later)
(If you don't know where that is from, you should watch The Reward.)
u/throwawayIWGWPC [+10] (an hour later)
before showing up to Zorian's parent's house for the equivalent of Winter Solstice dinner
FTFY
#WarOnChristmas
u/Mekanimal [+8] (8 hours later)
Happy December 21st!
I blame the hippies
u/MereInterest [+9] (13 hours later)
No need to change that. In 1984, the Supreme Court declared that Christmas was a secular holiday.
The war is over. Christmas lost.
u/Bowbreaker [+2] Solitary Locust (21 hours later)
I don't know if you can say Christmas lost. Its more like it was conquered and now resides in different hands.
u/Sailor_Vulcan [+11] Champion of Justice and Reason (an hour later)
ehhh...i can kinda see it, but i mean, if no one else understands what they've been going through for so much of their lives with this time loop business except each other...and if when they leave the time loop they still look like fifteen year olds rather than their true ages...
Well, if there is literally nobody else in the world who is in their league, and they have no other options, then of course they're going to end up together. But seriously, having no other options but each other isn't romantic, just sad. After all, there's always the chance that one or both of them are straight, and in that case they really will be alone for a very long time.
u/GodKiller999 [+17] (4 hours later)
Why would a romantic party need to be of the same skill level exactly?
u/ketura [+5] Organizer (6 hours later)
Not skills but experience. If you were a 120 year old in a 15 year old body, can you really connect with someone your age? Or 18? or 30? or 50?
u/Arno_Nymus [+7] (9 hours later)
Can liches be female, because in that case I found a solution?
u/ketura [+3] Organizer (17 hours later)
Ah yes, because the relationships between Zach / Zorian and liches have been so wholesome so far...
u/GodKiller999 [+5] (13 hours later)
Depends, for example even if Zach is somewhat wise, there's a lot of growth he just hasn't had to being 15 in body (particularly brain). And when the loop his over Zorian won't have gained that much experience, he'll just be more mature in comparison to what he was initially.
u/ketura [+3] Organizer (17 hours later)
Five years of repelling invasions, torturing and interrogating hostiles, pushing the boundaries of esoteric magics, wandering the world, dying repeatedly, combating wild magical beasts, breaking in to the world's most protected vaults, and tracking down and gathering forbidden knowledge from the four corners of the globe leaves him without "that much experience"?
u/GodKiller999 [+3] (17 hours later)
It gives him combat/magic skill/adventuring experience, but when it comes to the kind of experience related to romance he indeed doesn't have that much.
u/thrawnca [+2] Carbon-based biped (a day later)
If he invests some time, maybe he can at least resolve his history with Taiven. Or perhaps that would be best discussed post-loop, when she'll remember?
u/GodKiller999 [+2] (a day later)
It'll probably come at some point. Anyway he has in fact grown as person, but it's important to remember that before the time loop he had a lot of issues and regardless of how "old" he is, he's still working with a teenager brain which inherently limit some of his development.
u/RockLeethal [+2] (a day later)
I feel like body maturity would have some effect on mental maturity. Surely you would be more mature, but surroundings also affect you. Plus, Zach really doesn't act like someone who is in his however many years he is.
u/ketura [+3] Organizer (a day later)
As a sample size of one, and one who has explicitly had his memory wiped, he's not the best example.
u/Xtraordinaire [+6] Team Glimglam (54 minutes later)
Typo(s):
"And my shaping skill skills are good enough
u/thrawnca [+7] Carbon-based biped (an hour later)
only evidence of the impact with/only evidence of the impact was
from which it had come from/which it had come from
Black room/Black Room
That sound kind of/That sounds kind of
"That... what a good point." possibly should be "That...was a good point."
mana reserves maximum/mana reserves' maximum
in measly five years/in a measly five years
"You get use them" - not sure what this should say, maybe "You can use them"
shaking off the furiously attacking ants off/shaking the furiously attacking ants off
Zorian said, motioned Zach/Zorian said, motioning Zach
continue out search/continue our search
As a point of face/As a point of fact
turned it into a pile/turned into a pile
sent a some kind/sent some kind
descended into deep reaches/descended into the deep reaches
Though it may appear/Though it might appear
u/Lajamerr_Mittesdine [+6] Q Continuum (58 minutes later)
Another typo is rest should be reset.
"It's hard to stay outraged at something for years and years, especially when things get ^rest once a month," Zach said. "But we aren't ignoring it."
u/Ds_Advocate [+4] (an hour later)
Also
That trice-damned group
should be "thrice-dammed" I think.
u/Kosijenac [+6] (9 hours later)
Is anyone else thinking about all the possible foreshadowing with the simulacrum?
I mean e.g. If the simulacrum turned on Zorian at the very end, how much doubt could that instill in Zach? I can just picture him going paranoid, and Zorian getting really uncomfortable with his own status as an ensouled copy.
And while I'm on that track, I keep expecting Zorian to try and pull some sort of soul/mind magic trickery to get past the guardian and with the simulacrum spell being the basis for being a Lich? Sneaking past the guardian and then body snatching something/Someone in the real world becomes a real possibility.
u/rilianus [+10] (26 minutes later)
Damn. MOAR!
u/Xandarth [+4] (12 hours later)
Well, the simulcrum spell may actually give them a way out of the pocket reality they are in. If they can create simulcrums outside of the time loop (or send them out souless), then transfer their souls to the simulcrums, that is a plausible way of getting bodies in the physical reality outside. It may cause some security concerns for the people running the Dungeon facility though. ;)
u/thrawnca [+3] Carbon-based biped (19 hours later)
I'm pretty sure that the Guardian won't transfer anything except a soul. Although there was the theory that RR physically walked out... but then they wouldn't need simulacra.
u/throwawayIWGWPC [+2] (17 days later)
Xvim is tutoring Zorian in dimensional magic and the gate spell is basically a wormhole, so the "physically walking out" may be a viable option for Zorian.
u/RMcD94 [+9] (an hour later)
It was a heavy price to pay, especially for a mage already suffering from below average mana reserves, such as Zorian. Mages interested in magical enhancements had to think very carefully about whether a particular enhancement was worth the price they would pay for it.
Why would it be a proportional system? If it's used to sustain it then it should just be however much mana it needs so that Zach could get lots of enhancements.
Also the whole blood line thing, why not once you're old or about to have kids if you're a woman, enchant your blood line to the max (diminishing returns means you'll always have some mana left anyway 10% of 10% of 10%... is never zero) and then have a bunch of kids? And then those kids do the same thing.
Unless the mana limit applies to kids too.
Also if demons just value life force why not use non sapient or evil magical creatures in the summoning rituals, or stock up your life force like you'd give blood. You could carry life force crystals like mana crystals no?
Also the simulacrum sounds incredibly dangerous. Would you be ok being bossed around by someone who claimed to be yourself? You know you're the real version, but this other person who looks like you is telling you to do what they say. Alaric's right and makes me really surprised it works with Liches because who is more independent than Liches. You really need a real desire to kill yourself to save yourself. Since every simulacrum knows their life is forfeit from the moment they're born. They won't get the pleasure of knowing that they will revive in another time loop. Even ignoring that if you were intending to end the spell in a day then they know they only have a day to live unless they can change your mind.
u/Aretii [+15] Cultist of Cthugha (an hour later)
Why would it be a proportional system? If it's used to sustain it then it should just be however much mana it needs so that Zach could get lots of enhancements.
Yeah, that's why there's this line:
He had originally wanted to point out that Zach could benefit from enhancement rituals even more than Zorian would, but decided this wasn't the best time to raise that issue.
It's not proportional, it's a flat maintenance cost.
u/nobody103 [+11] (9 hours later)
Yes, it's definitely flat maintenance costs. I guess it was a bad choice of words on my part to pick an example with percentage amounts.
u/RMcD94 [+3] (an hour later)
He said a tenth or a half, it could still be better for Zach because 500 mana is worth less out of 1000 than 50 is from 100.
u/Aretii [+16] Cultist of Cthugha (an hour later)
I am pretty sure the narration was translating the issue into amounts relative to his mana pool because we haven't seen absolute quantities for mana costs the way e.g. The Waves Arisen has.
Furthermore, that segment comes on the heels of this:
Every magical creature needed a certain amount of ambient mana just to stay alive and fuel their magical abilities. The more powerful they were, the higher the ambient mana levels had to be to support them. Stepping into an area too thin in ambient mana to support them wouldn't immediately kill them, but they would find themselves quickly weakening and wasting away. This was the main reason why powerful monsters from the deeper levels of the Dungeon didn't overrun everything – they would effectively starve to death outside their home areas.
A human, regardless of the manner in which they acquired their magical abilities, also had to pay the price to maintain their existence. A portion of their mana reserves was effectively lost, permanently tied down in the maintenance of the magical enhancement. Their mana reserves maximum would be permanently lowered.
The cost for magical creatures is flat. The cost for humans is explicitly compared to that. So I read the cost for humans to maintain enhancements as also being flat, just subtracted from their mana cap, and depending on how large your mana cap is, that could range from a minor annoyance to a massive hobble. Since Zorian has below-average mana cap, he's interested in eking as much efficiency out of the ritual as possible.
u/RMcD94 [+3] (an hour later)
That's a fair enough interpretation, perhaps the addition of a "tenth" for him, instead of abstract. If there is no absolute quantities how else would he be able to know the cost to his mana pool?
u/throwawayIWGWPC [+8] (2 hours later)
I think Zorian is talking in general terms.
Depending on the sophistication of the enhancement ritual, the quality of the materials used in the procedure and the skill of the mage conducting it, the enhancement could either cost you half of your maximum mana reserves or a mere tenth of it.
Say a particular enhancement might cost a particular mage half of their mana pool, with better conditions, it might only cost a tenth. For Zach, however, it'd likely only cost a twentieth, but with better materials a mere eightieth.
u/thrawnca [+8] Carbon-based biped (2 hours later)
Unless the mana limit applies to kids too.
Of course it does. The reason for the mana cost is because the abilities need mana to function. If you expend all of your mana reserves on abilities, you've effectively given up all possibility of generic spellcasting in favor of a fixed set of abilities. And your children will inherit that choice.
And if they happen to have smaller mana reserves than you, they'll probably die in the womb.
u/nobody103 [+15] (9 hours later)
This. I guess I should have specified that in the chapter, but all bloodlines automatically pay this cost. It's just that this cost is already factored into a person's mana reserves and as such they never notice it as unusual. Also, the cost of a natural bloodline you were born with is as low as it could possibly be.
u/thrawnca [+2] Carbon-based biped (17 days later)
they never notice it as unusual
Wouldn't this become noticeable, though, as your reserves grow? Someone on DarkLordPotter pointed that out. If your magnitude would be, say, 15, but you have magical enhancements consuming 5 Magic Missile units (1), then wouldn't your reserves eventually grow to 55? Which you might notice if you were expecting 40.
(1) Not to be confused with Mibi Missile units, an attempt to standardize usage in a way that takes efficiency into account.
u/nobody103 [+1] (18 days later)
Yes, you could notice it that way. I didn't mean they literally never can detect it, or that the phenomena is unknown to the mages at large. I meant that starting mages would see nothing wrong with their adjusted reserves.
u/thrawnca [+1] Carbon-based biped (19 days later)
Thanks for confirming. So Zorian's "35 missiles after I started with 8" actually has three contributing factors. Because empathy and psychic powers surely have their price, so his magnitude might well be ten or higher.
u/RMcD94 [+2] (6 hours later)
Well you could just keep trying until you get one with big mana reserves, eugenics seem pretty op in this universe is all
u/-Fender- [+5] (an hour later)
If the simulacrum has Zorian's abilities, then it should also get his soul sense. If so, then it would immediately realize that it has no souls.
Although it might create an existential crisis for him, he should also have all of Zorian's memories, therefore leading it to accept the reason why it was created.
We'll just have to wait and see how rational and detached the author decides to make Zorian's simulacrums.
u/spanj [+5] (an hour later)
If you developed a habit of checking whether or not your soul is anchored in your physical body, the simulacrum issue can be avoided provided that you have a firm belief that your personal identity is tied directly to your original body. This way, when you create a simulacrum, because it is a reflection of yourself, it will also periodically check whether or not it has a soul. Once it finds out it does not have a soul anchored to its body, it would realize that the best course of action is to better the original body because it also believes in the views on personal identity as the caster.
So in limited cases, the simulacrum could work without risk. The former criterion can be developed easily, but the latter is much harder because it requires one to have a certain philosophy which is arguably harder to change/develop.
Also, it would not make sense for mana consumption to simply disappear just because of a hereditary trait.
u/RMcD94 [+8] (an hour later)
Theoretically I agree with your first comment, and I'd like to think that if I was cloned or had my own simulacrum-maker that I would be willing to throw my life at their feet. But I think that once you check for your soul and find it absent it might be harder to come to stock with the fact that your life is now forfeit than you first thought.
So yeah, no risk if you do have that philosophy but no way to test the reality without risking it. I guess you have to clone yourself, give your clone a gun in a sealed room, and tell them to kill themselves.
Also, it would not make sense for mana consumption to simply disappear just because of a hereditary trait.
I agree but then I'd expect more bloodline traits. You only need one pair of parents to give up 99% of their mana and their children will have an enormous advantage.
u/spanj [+4] (an hour later)
I don't follow your logic. Hypothetically, after performing a blood magic enhancement ritual, a portion of your mana is now locked away in maintaining this enhancement. Of your children that do inherit this enhancement, a portion of their mana will also be locked away in the maintenance of the now hereditary ability.
By locking away 99% of your mana reserves you are essentially fucking over your children that do inherit your abilities, if they ever so decide on becoming a mage.
u/RMcD94 [+2] (6 hours later)
Because only one person has to kill someone in a blood ritual to use their life-force for the ritual no?
You're never going to get a more efficient ritual than that I would assume
Plus if someone discovers a ritual I'm sure there's a way to purify the bloodlines too
u/melmonella [+3] Tremble, o ye mighty, for a new age is upon you (9 hours later)
it requires one to have a certain philosophy which is arguably harder to change/develop.
Not with mind magic it's not. #OPMindMagic
u/spanj [+5] (15 hours later)
This entire Red Robe situation would be much clearer if we had gotten a better update on the investigation of the 15 inner cult members. Unless Red Robe had previously found an unguarded red robe, it is highly likely that Red Robe is an inner cult member considering the fact that he showed up almost immediately in a restart attacking a sleeping Zach.
Of course, there are two situations I can think of which would allow Red Robe easy access to a red robe. The first being a red robe guarded by wards that Red Robe had previously learned how to disarm effortlessly (the owner of the robe is away) and the second being an inner cult member who was erased from the template (like the Cyorian Aranea) which would allow for easy access to a "soul killed" body donning red robes.
Barring these two exceptions, if they had found all the names and verified the status of all 15 inner cult members, it would be highly suspect if one of the inner cult members is conveniently missing.
u/edwardkmett [+3] (2 days later)
Having previously soul killed a cultist would make for a remarkably straightforward way to acquire a robe. Just show up where his body is and take it off him. It is clean and doesn't require the cult to have previously let a volatile candidate breach their inner circle.
The problem with that theory is that Veyers was willing to work with the invasion for so long. Working in close proximity to so many "real" red robes seems like an oddly volatile path to try to manage.
u/throwawayIWGWPC [+2] (17 days later)
That's assuming Veyers is RR. I like that possibility, but after learning how volatile Veyers is, I'm not sure now . . .
u/thrawnca [+2] Carbon-based biped (2 days later)
it is highly likely that Red Robe is an inner cult member considering the fact that he showed up almost immediately
And also considering the fact that supporting the invasion but dropping out to preserve his own interests, having an allied-at-arm's-length relationship with QI, and over-estimating his own mind magic are all very consistent with the behavior of an inner circle cult member.
u/megazver [+4] (15 hours later)
Fantastic chapter, as always.
Red Robe being Zach's simulacrum and possibly wearing Veyers' body sounds spot on to me, a great theory. It does raise some questions, though. For instance, Red Robe actually knows the Simulacrum spell:
For a moment, the matriarch was afraid that they had killed the man, making all her preparations and plotting meaningless… but the reality turned out to be far worse than that. Instead of erupting into a shower of blood and gore, the robed man simply… turned into smoke.
The opponent they had been fighting hadn't been the third time traveler in person. It had been merely an ectoplasmic shell infused with some of his skill and magic. A simulacrum, meant to test the waters and distract them.
And the simulacrum seems willing to die for him. Plot hole or clue? If Red Robe was a rebellious simulacrum, surely his own simulacra wouldn't be terribly obedient? Has RR also learned how to control them? Also, Zorian remembers Zach being chill even before the loop. Red Robe is, to put it mildly, somewhat of a dick. Did SZach just freak, like Alrick said they sometimes do, when he realized he's a simulacrum? The freak-out, combined with having to do whatever fucked-up shit he did to save himself beyond the loop reset and to wipe Zach's memory, would have pushed him along a darker path. Also, like Zach, Red Robe seems talented in many ways, but not that... clever. He bought the arenea misdirection hook, line and sinker, and then just brute forced his way through the problem.
I also have some general thoughts about the story far. (Notice me, senpai!!!) Personally, I am looking forward to Z&Z investigating the lesser markers and the expel from loop spell further.
Expel's utility is obvious - they're going to have a hard time reliably getting all of the pieces of the Key without it. For example, getting Quatach-Ichl's piece. First few loops, assaults on him, trying to hit him with the expel spell. (Speaking of which, has the expel spell been shown to be blocked by magical defenses and wards or, since it's kind of an higher-level admin tool, if you're hit you're done?) The next few loops after that, an assault on wherever his remains are at the start of the loop and expelling whatever resistance there might be in the location. Every loop after that - wake up, teleport, grab it, check mark on the list, go grab a coffee.
And the lesser markers would be crucial in arranging this. Getting Xvim and Alrick in on it for multiple loops at a time would save Z&Z days of getting them to believe them and weeks of getting them up to speed and getting them to fully trust them. As for the ethics of it, well, they've already told them that they are copies of themselves who get wiped out once a month and that's like 90% of it. Personally, I think if I was made aware of being in someone else's time loop, I'd prefer to have six months over one. Xvim and Alrick seem like the tough, old, responsible bastards who, if asked, would agree to it for the cause. I wouldn't use it on the rest of Z&Z's close circle, though. That would suck.
u/thrawnca [+3] Carbon-based biped (a day later)
an assault on wherever his remains are at the start of the loop
Er... that's potentially gonna be somewhere on Ulquaan Ibasa, which is a separate continent and full of NECROMANCERS. It would practically be easier to fight QI, once they've developed a good strategy.
u/megazver [+2] (a day later)
There is a gate, though, to wherever QI's base probably is, isn't there? And the necromancers, without QI, haven't posed a tremendous challenge for a while now, especially if Z&Z get the backing of Alrick's forces again. Especially if they spend a few cycles expelling who they can and weakening their forces.
Besides, unless they're willing to put off taking the last piece of the Key until the last few hours of the cycle, they'll probably have to fight QI on his turf anyway.
u/thrawnca [+3] Carbon-based biped (a day later)
There is a gate
Yes, and at the start of the month it will be surrounded by the main body of the invasion force. And it leads to Iasku Mansion, but I don't recall Zorian ever finding the next link in the chain.
the necromancers, without QI, haven't posed a tremendous challenge for a while now
They would in sufficient numbers. Zach is very much a novice in soul magic, and Zorian only slightly less so.
u/megazver [+2] (a day later)
Yes, and at the start of the month it will be surrounded by the main body of the invasion force. And it leads to Iasku Mansion, but I don't recall Zorian ever finding the next link in the chain.
You don't need to expel them at the start of the month. Zorian had already spent a month hunting them in the caverns before. Next month, most of them immediately flop down, aranea-style, they're probably reinforced, a few more purges like that and investigating the gate might work. But QI needs to get expelled first.
And, again, the alternative is fighting them all anyway, but at the end of the month, when they're in full combat mode and with hours left on the timer.
I'm not saying it's easy. I'm saying the other options suck a lot more. At least, using the tools we know of so far. I mean, sure, they could find a "bitch slap QI to death reliably and with ease any time they want" spell, then they can just do that. But that would... not be amazing storytelling.
u/thrawnca [+3] Carbon-based biped (a day later)
But that would... not be amazing storytelling.
Aww, come on, you don't think shooting him with a soul coin would be awesome?
u/megazver [+2] (a day later)
It was cool. I suspect trying to get that to work on their own terms might take longer that the cycles they've got left.
And that's just one piece. They also need to get the other pieces and at least a couple are probably going to require a similar amount of magical and military effort to repelling the invasion and attacking the Well of Souls. Alanic can put together a strike force for one of these, but can he do it like three times in one month? Learning to expel is a must.
u/thrawnca [+3] Carbon-based biped (a day later)
We don't yet know whether they have to present all five pieces at the same time. I wouldn't be surprised at all if bringing a single piece to the Guardian gets them something, eg telling them how to use their Controller powers (apart from the ones built into the marker). It's possible that bringing them all sequentially would be enough to give them authorisation.
u/megazver [+2] (a day later)
We'll see, I suppose.
u/throwawayIWGWPC [+2] (17 days later)
Yeah, that seemed a little cheap. The only redeeming part is it's not very reliable.
u/thrawnca [+2] Carbon-based biped (a day later)
the simulacrum seems willing to die for him.
Well, it didn't exactly want to die. It was caught in a trap. But regardless, I get the idea that RR is being driven by a desire for revenge of some kind, and people can be quite self-sacrificing toward that kind of goal.
u/t3tsubo [+6] (4 hours later)
Did Zorian just learn KAGE BUNSHIN NO JUTSU?
u/thrawnca [+5] Carbon-based biped (4 hours later)
No.
But it's a start.
u/t3tsubo [+8] (4 hours later)
The simulacrum and presumably just make a memory packet, or be telepathically linked during training.
u/kaukamieli [+2] (17 hours later)
Zorian can just mindrape it of everything it learned.
u/thrawnca [+4] Carbon-based biped (19 hours later)
People keep talking about doing that to allies, but given the limitations of memory probing, it's much more efficient to have a willing target simply talk to you.
u/kaukamieli [+2] (20 hours later)
Not more efficient. Otherwise Naruto could just talk to his clones and get the experience that way. Zorian can get much more of the learning experience by mind magic.
u/thrawnca [+3] Carbon-based biped (20 hours later)
Simulacra are not shadow clones. Zorian doesn't get automatic personality reintegration when they disperse. If he did, then sure, that would be highly efficient (and OP). But given the actual magic system, where you have to ask specific questions to probe someone, it's faster and more reliable to just let them talk.
Mind magic would make the process more effective by reading surface thoughts and emotions, but not by deep probing.
u/kaukamieli [+2] (20 hours later)
They are not shadow clones, yes, Zorian does not get what Naruto gets. That's why he'd need mind magic to get some of what Naruto gets.
Yea, I just lumped all of what he can do with mind magic into "mind rape" because I'm not sure what exactly he needs to do. But I'm pretty sure he can do better than talking.
u/thrawnca [+3] Carbon-based biped (3 days later)
I just lumped all of what he can do with mind magic into "mind rape"
Er... perhaps you should look more closely at what the term means. Really, even most deep memory probes don't really qualify, except maybe his initial attempts that destroyed cultists' minds after hideous convulsions.
u/throwawayIWGWPC [+2] (17 days later)
A willing target? Talking? What are you, a pansy? :D
u/monkyyy0 [+3] (16 hours later)
Have they considered talking their way into the treasury?
"hey there is this giant soul well, let me show you it and help you take it down, oh and also heres a list of location of your enemys, btw I'm looking for a dagger that matches my robe the mark on my soul, do you think you could spare one?"
u/thrawnca [+8] Carbon-based biped (22 hours later)
And when the royals inevitably freak out, you will be arrested, locking in shaping-disrupting manacles, and interrogated using truth potions, mind magic, and methods you hadn't even heard of before.
u/throwawayIWGWPC [+2] (17 days later)
That's terrifying, especially considering how the Royal mage hunters were able to put Z&Z on the run, who knows what the Royal interrogation mages could do . . .
u/SpeculativeFiction [+3] (20 hours later)
So simulacrums don't generate magic of their own,
and need ambient mana to sustain themselves.I wonder if the fact that they can absorb ambient mana at all means they are capable of taking in more mana than they use.If Zorian had one or more simulacrums above say, the Cyorian well (the highest ambient mana generator in known in the world, IIRC), would he be able to increase his regeneration speed like Naruto putting clones in sage mode?
u/thrawnca [+3] Carbon-based biped (20 hours later)
I actually speculated on this elsewhere in the thread. But what makes you think simulacra need ambient mana? They are tied to the caster's mana pool and can cast spells from it.
If they can assimilate ambient mana, though, then we can be pretty sure that the potential rate of assimilation (which can fill a mage from empty within hours) exceeds the maintenance cost (because simulacra can be maintained for days).
u/SpeculativeFiction [+3] (21 hours later)
But what makes you think simulacra need ambient mana?
Ugh. I conflated the bit about magically enhanced beings needed ambient mana (or reserves) to survive with the simulacrum. I should have gone back to double check before posting--my bad.
I knew the simulacrum had to draw from the caster's mana pool to cast spells, but thought I had read that they could absorb ambien mana to pay for their upkeep, and possibly spells.
Now I'm not sure they can use ambient mana at all. You might need a soul to do that. Well, to share with a human anyway. People can't just use ambient mana--absorbing it without converting it first is harmful.
However, I'm pretty sure Zorian has created devices that cast using stored reserves of ambient mana. They could have used crystallized mana, but I thought there were ones that basically just had a storage chamber of some sort.
He used them for defense in one of the invasions of Cyoria, IIRC, but I'm not terribly confident in my memory after my earlier mistake. I'll re-read to look for it after Finals week, I guess.
u/thrawnca [+2] Carbon-based biped (22 hours later)
A simulacrum does have access to a soul. It's connected to the caster's soul. I reckon it probably can feed mana back into the pool, just like it can draw mana out.
u/thrawnca [+2] Carbon-based biped (a day later)
Self-casting items like blasting rods don't actually store mana iirc, they just channel whatever ambient mana is around. And yes, Zorian used some after returning to Cyoria, in the same restart where he took over the invaders' thunder lizards.
u/SpeculativeFiction [+2] (a day later)
Self-casting items like blasting rods don't actually store mana iirc, they just channel whatever ambient mana is around.
Then why would he need five of them? If they just use ambient mana directly, without storing it, wouldn't one be sufficient?
My guess is they either fill up a reservoir with ambient mana over time, or use mana crystals.
u/thrawnca [+3] Carbon-based biped (a day later)
why would he need five of them?
Probably because if you overuse one, it may fail catastrophically.
u/SpeculativeFiction [+2] (2 days later)
Huh, you would appear to be correct. I don't generally look much at his wordpress site unless linked to it, so thank you for that. I should really check it out more often.
u/throwawayIWGWPC [+2] (17 days later)
If you donate on Patreon, you get notified of any updates to his wordpress. Totally worth donating even fifty cents every three weeks.
u/thrawnca [+2] Carbon-based biped (17 days later)
Absorbing it without converting first is harmful.
Actually, this gave me an idea. The damage affects the body and mind, but not, I think, the soul. So a simulacrum using it shouldn't, in theory, poison real!Zorian.
Of course, it's a very bad idea to have an insane simulacrum running around sharing your skills, your mana pool, and your face. So this would only be helpful when the simulacrum is about to be dispelled or the loop reset.
u/thrawnca [+3] Carbon-based biped (20 hours later)
Kael should see that blood magic book. It's his heritage, after all. He might or might not have much interest in the field, but he should have the opportunity (and given his interest in soul magic, I suspect he would take this up too). He might even have some helpful insights.
u/throwawayIWGWPC [+2] (17 days later)
That's a great idea. I'd love to see what Kael says about it.
u/CaptainMcSmash [+3] (a day later)
Can't remember if its been explained but I don't think it has. Where do monsters come from? Did they evolve? Someone create them? Or do they just keep popping out of some portal at the bottom of the Dungeon? Also what is the dungeon? Did people build or the Gods build it. Anyone ever explore all the way down to the bottom?
u/Fredlage [+2] (a day later)
The closest answer is the story of the Dragon Bellow, who was destroyed by the gods and had its corpse used to create the world. The dungeon is claimed to be the veins of the dragon. The story also claims his heart is still beating at the center of the world and some times pieces of it flake off and become monsters.
That's the mythology anyway. There's been no confirmation on whether this is actually true.
u/CaptainMcSmash [+3] (2 days later)
Got another question for ya, what is mana, where does it come from and why is there a massive mana well in Cyoria?
u/Fredlage [+2] (2 days later)
No idea.
u/throwawayIWGWPC [+2] (16 days later)
It's funny you ask because the author recently released a world-building post on the topic of mana.
https://motheroflearninguniverse.wordpress.com/2016/12/13/basics-of-magic-mana/
u/CaptainMcSmash [+3] (17 days later)
Yeah I read it, fun read that explained things and suggests what I suspect is true. It's actually is funny for me because both times I comment on the series about things, the immediate next post addresses them.
u/minopoked [+2] (2 days later)
I don't think the author will get into further detail about this, due to the story being in its last arc..
u/CaptainMcSmash [+3] (2 days later)
I mean, does it have to be an extensive answer? Could just be a paragraph of backstory explaining the dungeon and how monsters come out of it.
There's probably some hint of truth in that mythology, like instead of veins its just the complex/storage/prison building that houses the remains of the dragon and instead of heart flakes its just some hyper intense ambient mana surrounding the remains mutating whatever comes near it or something.
u/TimTravel [+5] (2 hours later)
I don't really have anything interesting to say but HYPE HYPE HYPE!
u/Bowbreaker [+2] Solitary Locust (20 hours later)
Who was Haslush?
u/thrawnca [+6] Carbon-based biped (22 hours later)
The detective who, at Ilsa's request (and to get out of investigating the silly rumors about mentalist spiders in the sewers), tutored Zorian in divination.
u/thrawnca [+2] Carbon-based biped (6 days later)
So... this seems to me like an anomaly.
It's clear that in MoL-verse, minds and souls have separate existences. You can have mindless undead powered by enslaved souls; Alanic had to create a magical brain in order for Zorian to retain self-awareness while disembodied; and now we've established that you can have multiple independent minds attached to the same soul.
So...how does the Gate maintain continuity of the Controllers' minds, if all it retains is the soul? (Remember that the Guardian didn't seem to have any awareness of Red Robe as an individual; it only pays attention to the soul marker.)
Is it simply because their souls contain all of their memories, so they're actually newly-created minds, but running on all the old data? If so, then why aren't simulacrum memories likewise imprinted on the soul? The author has explicitly stated that simulacra are not automatically reintegrated with the caster; but if the soul contains a record of everything the attached mind has experienced, how can that be true?
Especially since we are told that simulacra resemble liches, and surely when a lich's magical brain is destroyed, and its soul snaps back to the phylactery, it will remember what happened to that brain.
u/throwawayIWGWPC [+2] (17 days later)
It makes more sense if you think of things in terms of programming, particularly in terms of scope and controlling mutability. What that means is that some spells create a mind that can write information onto the soul, whereas others do not.
Magic Brain (a la Alanic)
This spell is specifically designed to create a single mind that can write information to the soul. Alanic had to cast the spell in such an isolated environment---indeed, even isolated from light---and this spell may be one reason why. This would mean the spell is very difficult, dangerous, and fragile.
Simulacrum
(We know that simulacra share mana, but not memories, so their mechanism is likely different. This may be because mana is more or less a binary thing---do you have enough or don't you---whereas memories are more complicated. This discussion is aimed at how memory information is dealt with rather than mana information.)
Simulacrum is designed to work with at least two concurrent minds. The mind reads and writes information to the soul. With two minds, this back and forth process can get complicated and may create conflicts. (This is a headache familiar to programmers who program for multiple cores when they allow for mutability.)
For example, what if one mind improves shaping and the other mind improves mana capacity (which limits shaping ability) and then the soul tries to read that information? The result would be a conflict. One solution is a complicated set of rules, perhaps with bugs or loopholes, for how and when to mutate information from the minds. Another solution which eliminates all of that complexity is to not have the simulacrum change the soul at all.
Also, taking into account the magic brain spell Alanic used, there may be a source of difficulty other than the information safety problems I mentioned above. It may simply be very hard to make a mind that can has write access to the soul, and that's why Alanic needed a special ritual that was isolated from the rest of the world. Those kinds of connections may be more delicate, which might limit the usefulness of a simulacrum spell.
Aside: Alanic said that half of becoming a lich is learning the simulacrum spell. In other words, it's a spell that allows the user to give a separate brain access to your soul's mana pool. Perhaps another piece of the puzzle for the lich ritual involves giving that mind access to the soul's information storage as well. I would guess there is a lot of additional modification to the spells that needs to be done as well . . .
The other issue with the simulacrum having continuous read/write access to the soul is that the minds of both the caster and their simulacrum would have to deal with two sets of sensory input. If memory serves me, even Zorian struggles to actively control of his own body and get sensory input from another body. Usually, he has to concentrate to see through the eyes of another being and he able to use mind magic to filter the information. If both a caster and their simulacrum were getting straight information dumps, it might be harder to focus, which would make the spell more difficult to use.
It would still be nice to get an information dump when a simulacrum passed away, and that might be a possible modification of the spell (I can see that feature being important to a lich), but that would also be a dangerous feature. Say you're in a battle and your simulacrum is eviscerated and you suddenly get a day's worth of memories plus a ton of pain dumped into your brain. The distraction might give the enemy the chance to kill you.
The Gate
I'm guessing the Gate creates a normal connection between the souls it creates and the minds they work with. Souls that are marked get shunted into the new pocket universe and are connected to the new mind. When the Gate finally deactivates, the soul is reconnected with the original mind.
I wonder if /u/nobody103 has any insights he can divulge at this point in the story . . .
u/thrawnca [+2] Carbon-based biped (17 days later)
If a simulacrum didn't have the ability to lay down new memories, then it wouldn't be able to become independent and go rogue.
And if it has read-only access to the caster's memory storage, then it ought to be able to pick up everything the caster is experiencing in real time.
I wouldn't expect a memory dump from a destroyed simulacrum. I might expect its memories to continuously appear while it exists, so you wouldn't have extra sensory input, but if you think back, you realise you have two sets of experiences.
u/throwawayIWGWPC [+2] (17 days later)
New Memories: The simulacrum can lay down new memories in its mind, but does not write those memories to the soul.
Read-only Access: In reality, it doesn't have read-access—it's just duplicating the caster's mind and the information contained therein at the time of casting. In other words, it's second-hand read-access.
Memory Updating: I think that if sensory input from the simulacrum are converted to memories in its magic brain then transferred to the soul, this would update the sensory input for the original caster. I can see what you're saying, but I feel you'd need a filter to prevent the simulacrum's sensory input from arriving continuously in the caster's mind.
Either way, we know from the story that the simulacrum spell copies the mind at the time of casting and does not at any time transfer mnemonic information to the soul.
When programming and you make a copy of something, it's useful to be able to modify that copy and not have the original also change (call-by-value). You can have the copy point to the original as well (call-by-reference), but it can create issues. Both have their place, and I wouldn't be surprised if the lich ritual involves modifying the simulacrum spell to work like a call-by-reference.
u/None [+1] (a day later)
[deleted]
u/thrawnca [+1] Carbon-based biped (a day later)
You don't really need the spoiler mask on that comment. Anything in the current chapter is fair game.