scrape_r_rational/data/cache2/5lcx0o.md

The effects of the advent of superpowers upon society.

• Author: u/jakeb89 *

• URL: https://www.reddit.com/r/rational/comments/5lcx0o/the_effects_of_the_advent_of_superpowers_upon/

• Score: 24

• Created: 2017-01-01T01:44:21

Post:

First, let me declare a free-for-all on fiction spoilers in this thread. I only spoil Worm stuff, but others should feel free to act similarly with other canons.

I've done some searching, but haven't found a thread sufficiently centered around this topic. I would like to discuss and see the thoughts of others about this.

I haven't read a great deal of superhero fiction, with Worm being the only one of the genre I could stick with. Even Worm's approach to this topic seems dissatisfying to me - a single person (Contessa) is used to shape the entire world's setting into something approaching 'classic' superhero stories rather than allowing actual change to come about. Certainly, some concepts and institutions that come out of that (unwritten rules, kill orders, birdcage, PRT, protectorate) are interesting, even if they don't feel truly genuine to me (for the previously explained reason.) About the only thing I can think of that's probably free of author-standin-fiat is the endbringer truce, but that comes about as a result of something else incredibly specific to the story in question (endbringers.)

There are some other high-level effects I found interesting - the formation of the yangban under the CUI as a superpowered society formed by a more autocratic state is an example of a state reacting to supers in a way very different from Worm!USA's reaction.

I really feel that if some completely natural and obvious cause/effect would likely prevent a superhero society trope, it should.

If you guys have existing stories you think I might find interesting, please point me to them. Don't worry about spoiling though; I'm more interested in examples of this topic than preserving surprises in stories I might not read.

Comments:

u/Thinker6 [+23] (3 hours later)

I think the most interesting answer is diversity. Most likely there won't be a single solution or culture. There would be several ways societies could configure themselves to accommodate superpowers, without any clear "right answer" that would win out over the others.

In fact, a correction to your post: the world of Worm has exactly this diversity! The "heroes and villains" dynamic isn't actually enforced by Contessa - at least, not in the way you're thinking. Cauldron did help support that dynamic in North America by supporting Alexandria's babies, the Protectorate+PRT. But that wasn't the only dynamic they let occur. In fact, Word of God is that parahuman culture settled into that mode in North America but is very different in different parts of the world. The "hot and cold" capes dynamic in India, folk-hero 'criminals' vs corrupt government organizations in Central America, warlord-driven conflicts in much of Africa, the top-down authoritarian rule in China (as you pointed out), other types of factions in Russia, etc.

All of them were viable to various degrees, though they all leaned on Cauldron support. Well, I can see where you're coming from, though. We notice Cauldron's role more in the North American dynamic because of sampling bias: that's where most of the story is set, so it's the culture that's fleshed out the most by far in canon!

In a non-Worm setting you could get even more diversity. Powers won't be targeted to people who are focal points for conflict, so it'd be easier to make complex organizations - they won't be under as much pressure of deterioration from random, unpredictable local conflicts. On the other hand, you could also have more uniformity. With less local and global conflict, the world might be ruled by a single central world power that got first mover advantage and grabbed the best powers. A centralized power would also get a bonus if powers aren't distributed to random/unpredictable individuals. For instance, if powers require expensive resources to awaken and use, a central authority could accumulate the resources quickly or even monopolize them.

u/aeschenkarnos [+9] (5 hours later)

The narrative of superheroes and supervillians has significant pull as a model to follow. The English name for a person who can fly, bounce bullets, has superstrength, etc etc is "superhero". (Or "supervillain", if they embrace self-centred behaviour.) Like "satellite", and many other invented concepts, the name for the thing existed before the thing itself existed.

Similarly, if the dead were to rise from their graves and develop an appetite for brains, we'd be calling them "zombies", whatever the actual explanation for the phenomenon turned out to be.

People would warp their behaviour to conform to the model. I suspect that, just as we have far more law-abiding citizens than criminals, we would also have far more superheroes than supervillains. (Worm's in-universe explanation for this is that you only get superpowers under extreme duress, ie capes are all PTSD sufferers, and the power itself drives the host towards conflict-seeking that the host believes is his/her own idea.)

u/callmebrotherg [+7] now posting as /u/callmesalticidae (53 minutes later)

I'm writing a story called Heroes Save the World that is exploring this. We start on the very day that the powers appear and haven't quite gotten to the part where it's public knowledge yet, but some governments are aware and have been making moves.

Some people have made some comparisons to Worm as well, but I'll caution that this is more in terms of "the characters like to munchkin" than the themes involved in each.

u/callmebrotherg [+4] now posting as /u/callmesalticidae (6 hours later)

Ahaha! No wonder I couldn't find this thread again. I first found (and replied to) it on my phone and just assumed it was on /r/WormFanfic because of the topic.

Whoops.

u/MysteryLolznation [+4] Dark Flame Master (15 hours later)

Your story is really entertaining

u/callmebrotherg [+2] now posting as /u/callmesalticidae (16 hours later)

Thank you! I'm glad that you're enjoying it.

u/eaglejarl [+5] (14 hours later)

Even Worm's approach to this topic seems dissatisfying to me - a single person (Contessa) is used to shape the entire world's setting into something approaching 'classic' superhero stories rather than allowing actual change to come about.

There were a few other factors, but they were even less satisfying for me:

• People had powers because they had alien worms in their heads
• The worms only chose psychologically damaged people
• The worms essentially mind-controlled them and forced them to fight instead of doing anything productive with their abilities
• The Endbringers regularly destroyed centers of population and industry
• The Simurgh explicitly targeted anyone who tried to do anything useful with powers

The Endbringer thing would have been a relatively elegant way to solve the issue, except then you need to answer "where did the Endbringers come from?" If I understood correctly, Eidolon unconsciously created them because he wanted to have something that only he could fight that would let him look cool.

Of course, there's still no reason why people were wearing costumes instead of tac gear.

So, yes, Worm is a giant pile of authorial fiat in which everyone literally has a Conflict Ball shoved into their head. It's aggravating.

u/None [+6] (20 minutes later)

[removed]

u/aeschenkarnos [+7] (5 hours later)

IMO Unbreakable is the best take on this. Many people don't even notice that it's a superhero movie until afterwards.

u/vallar57 [+3] Unseen University: Faculty of High-Energy Magic (an hour later)

Please Don't Tell My Parents I'm a Supervillain.

Here, we also have the classic superhero society, however, it wasn't always that way. Following sudden boom of superpowered population, a particulary bad decade (70s, I believe) happened - you can imagine what would do to any society if superpowers suddenly become dozens times more common. After that, a number of particulary strong superheroes and powerful villains emerged, and decided that enough is enough, nobody wants war. So they formed an agreement of sorts, with terms similar to the "game" Tattletale describes in Worm, but a lot more formal.

Also unlike in Worm, the system actually works as intended. Mainly becauseall the most powerful supers are in support of it, and there are no S-class threats like Endbringers and S9, that tend to tear downs societies which become too successful.

I very much advise to read the books (4 of them for now). Despite somewhat goofy and sometimes anvillicious theme, they offer amazing perspective on how a healthy superpowered society should work, after all the prisoner dilemmas are solved.

u/freshhawk [+3] (7 hours later)

Super Powereds by Drew Hayes has an interesting premise. There are normal humans, powereds (who have no or little control) and supers (full control). Powereds are pitied and looked down on, as well as rightly feared, treated as blend of severe disability and racism. Supers are very high status and mostly act like aristocrats and are mostly envied and hated. Power levels are massively variable and all powers are unique, although many are similar.

Through a bit of a fuzzy history there is a societal structure in place, a new class called "heroes", a tiny subset of supers who are loyalty tested, psychologically tested by psychics and highly trained. The PR is that they are trained to be the classic superhero trope of selfless and helpful, with a secret identity, the reality is that it is run by a large bureaucracy to use them and keep them and other non-humans under control while keeping the normals from rioting from fear/anger.

Heroes mostly put down supers and powereds who cause a disturbance, mostly non-lethally if possible but a lot of class time spent on the utilitarian calculus around when to just kill them quickly for the greater good.

If you don't toe the line or are simply too powerful then you are declared a "villain", and are captured or killed by whichever highly competent hero team is most suited. And the system trained you from early adulthood or childhood and know all your weaknesses and already has multiple redundant plans. This training intentionally included a large number of exercises where students were encouraged to betray each other and they fought to the near death constantly (there is a class of supers known as healers to patch you up after you methodically break your friends arms and legs until they tap out in order to win the match so you can go for beers after). This is revealed to be carefully thought out, so there is less resistance when they have to kill a friend who doesn't follow orders.

it's a really interesting series, although it's definitely in the pulp / summer reading category, a decent job of justifying a lot of superhero tropes with some of the necessary very dark behind the scenes manipulations. A lot of fun is had with unique powers and the unique combinations for teams, the entire "why don't the bad guys ever kidnap a hero's family" is answered with a black bag team of a locator, a teleporter, superintelligent strategist/lie-detector/torturer and a time stopper, as far as the public knows it never happens although sometimes people who talk about it just disappear forever.

I guess I do recommend it if you like some light reading, the main series is about a team of outcasts going through the university, this team is the focus and the world/laws/structure is dribbled out very slowly. I will warn you that they are all gratingly idiotic for plot reasons nearly all the damn time. This is not rational fiction. However the world is quite decent and the rational and clever applications of powers is excellent.

u/t3tsubo [+2] (2 hours later)

See the quote on cauldron's meddling here: https://forums.spacebattles.com/threads/worm-quotes-and-wog-repository.294448/page-3#post-15024624

for wildbow's (worm's author) take on how the world would have ended up without Contessa meddling around.

Edit: and the quote further down on "Government control of parahumans"

u/ArgentStonecutter [+1] Emergency Mustelid Hologram (12 hours later)

Also examined at some length in the /r/changestorms serial by /u/eaglejarl ...

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