15 KiB
Not Long Now: Prequel to Up the Beanstalk, touching on themes incl. automation, post scarcity and machine worship.
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Author: u/Aquareon *
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Score: 8
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Created: 2017-01-12T06:47:23
Post:
Comments:
u/callmebrotherg [+7] now posting as /u/callmesalticidae (2 hours later)
Before I read this: In what ways does this story qualify as r!fic? Spoilers are fine, but the past couple of stories that you've posted here haven't exactly been r!fic, so I'd like to get your pitch before I take any time on it.
u/Aquareon [+2] (2 hours later)
I'm unsure how to answer without major spoilers, but from the perspective of someone operating the orphanage, certain methods of proven psychological manipulation are employed in order to cultivate complicity from those who live there. That element is in fact a reference to a real world behaviorology experiment, as well as the larger concept of panopticon.
Everything operates in a sane, logical manner according to the laws of physics as the sub rules require, and how the facility's construction is financed is plausibly explained wherein other similar stories, immense costly infrastructure is just part of the world you're meant to take for granted.
I thought of you when choosing the next story to post, because I knew you would be waiting to pounce on the thread and give me a hard time about it if there were any foothold from which to do so.
u/None [+5] (4 hours later)
Do you know why your story get taken down by the mods last time?
I thought it was because that the story was not rational, but there are stories that are posted here and upvoted but considered not rational by the community.
u/Aquareon [+1] (4 hours later)
I didn't even realize it had been. It's a mystery to me as well, since many stories posted here involve superheroes and the like.
u/UltraRedSpectrum [+5] (9 hours later)
Rational fiction isn't quite related to hard sci-fi. It's more about the urge to optimization - in the course of the story, do the characters (primarily the protagonist) use every resource available to them to achieve their goals? Whether or not those resources could possibly exist isn't relevant to the category; Superman's powers or Aaron Smith-Teller's Kabbalah are just as valid a target for optimization as the internal combustion engine or a pencil sharpener.
u/None [+3] (4 hours later)
It isn't a mystery that non-rational stories get upvoted.
They are usually claimed as non-rational but something that the audience would like anyway. You didn't mark your as rational, so it should be safe.
u/Aquareon [+1] (5 hours later)
Oh, I didn't realize I could. It ticks all the boxes.
u/None [+6] (8 hours later)
Hey Aquareon,
I briefly skimmed through Not Long Now (but didn't spend too much time reading it, so feel free to correct me on points).
Maybe I can point out some reasons that there's been a lot of discussion over your works in this subreddit?
First off, your writing is very good. Use of language uniquely defines our protagonist (though more character development might also be good). Also, the rampant self-replication at the end is the sort of doomsday scenario we enjoy very much over here.
Yes, having an internally consistent world is part of it. And we can presume that things follow the laws of physics (no faster than light travel, for example). But the "consistency" rule is usually meant to indicate that story worlds don't contradict their own stated rules. Like, being able to form fire from sand is fine, as long as our protagonist doesn't find herself suddenly without options when locked in a jail cell by the beach.
But in Not Long Now, we don't have too many internally defined rules. I think it'd be more satisfying in the rational sense if we were given an idea of what can't and can happen in a better sense before the ultimate reveal. Sure, the notes at the beginning hinted at things, but it...didn't feel exciting?
And, sure, the use of orphans ala Snowpiercer does bring up some ethical questions about providing vs paternalism. But it seems strawmanned by the Grandfather. Would these be the ultimately compelling arguments that might convince you to go down this route?
Surely it's not with a mechanical behemoth that keeps its workers on only the barest rations?
So I think you could have strengthened those arguments that tug at the boundaries of our morals.
Lastly, rational fiction usually has protagonists trying things and generally being aware. I understand that our hero had little else to go, but there were a lot of warning signs at that orphanage. Might those have left him uncomfortable? And was his connection to his Grandfather something he could use to get higher status? (Slightly odd that he thinks of making friends first and then throws all that away.)
Also, when the protagonist, in response to discovering the orphanage is really just being run in the way that it is, decides to become a co-conspirator, isn't exactly in the spirit of rational fiction. Rational doesn't have to mean take the realistic view and screw all the other humans. You're allowed to try very hard, using all the available resources, mental or otherwise, to try and let good (in the sense of whatever side you're trying to espouse) win.
Tragic failures are interesting in a sense, but a lot of people here at r/rational, I think, also do like seeing deserved victories, where good does win, but through effort and not a deus ex machina.
I know this overview was all over the place, but hopefully that gives you a flavor for the sorts of stories we do enjoy and how Not Long Now sort of misses the mark for a few components.
u/UltraRedSpectrum [+4] (11 hours later)
To elaborate on the strawman angle, the machine seems like the most viscerally unpleasant potential conclusion of the Grandfather's ideals, rather than the most appropriate one. The narrative repeats the idea of building machines that are better, faster, bigger, and yet the supposed futurist settles for a machine that will not, and in fact cannot, be improved. The limiter will by its very nature slow progress to a crawl, and the difficulty with altering the behaviour of the brainwashed workforce only compounds the issue, even if a true innovation were made; the Grandfather, who apparently built the machines ex nihilo, couldn't possibly have missed these points.
With the technology available, a more sensible machine would first sort, and then limit and/or cull, the children. The most intelligent would be educated and brainwashed separately, and only then would the remainder be limited. This would, at least in theory, remove the risk to innovation posed by the machine, if you presume both that children can be accurately sorted by intelligence and that those sorted into the "unintelligent" category wouldn't later become intelligent. Neither is much of a leap relative to the other proposals of the story. The machine would also be less rigid, with complete blueprints being made available and concessions made to future expansion - or, perhaps, the offspring towers would be mutable, in a macabre parody of evolution. The outcome of this would be an exponentially self-improving machine.
(If we presume the possibility of deliberately breeding intelligent children a la Brave New World, we can remove sorting entirely. However, in the absence of this technology, we can settle.)
However, if we take this further, we find that there's actually no reason for many of the manual labour jobs. The pedal power is inefficient to the point of absurdity - the workers would obviously consume more than they produce. Cutting out the middleman and growing fuel to burn would dramatically increase efficiency. The slaughterhouse is likewise pointless; the long generation time and high energy cost relative to meat output makes humans one of the worst possible livestock animals. Even if you grant that babies are the tastiest possible food (which seems to be true only for the sake of including cannibalism, but whatever), there's no reason to feed human flesh to the workers (I'm assuming that's where they get the meat, as is implied by Up the Beanstalk) whose happiness is of no concern to you. A vegetarian diet is completely viable and more efficient by an order of magnitude, provided you choose the correct foods. Manufacture may briefly exist as a manual labour job if automation just wasn't there yet, but if it did it wouldn't for long given the tech level of the machines. At this point we only have a handful of administrative jobs, which is just fine anyway. If we must have work that's fine, but it'd be busywork.
If we take this further, the expense of wasting that much metal by building literally everything out of it serves no purpose other than as a metaphor for technology (technology == metal, everything is metal therefore everything is technology). Concrete, brick, and wood are much better and cheaper building materials. This is especially true given how much stone the machines must be pulling out of the ground. Making the machine vertical is just an engineering headache - a horizontal machine is more efficient, since it doesn't require digging or supporting the weight of upper levels, and you don't have to worry as much about miniaturization.
At this point we have an ugly merito/technocratic dystopia, in which everyone is brainwashed, the output of the society's fantastic technology is wasted for no particular reason other than so that there can be poor for the rich to look down on, built of decaying brick and concrete, housed in vast and incomprehensible machines, where the common man is oppressed for oppression's own sake and deliberately made stupid for the sake of social order. Lots of Brave New World and 1984, but with a strong anti-technology angle that neither had. Also cannibalism.
u/Aquareon [+1] (18 hours later)
the Grandfather, who apparently built the machines ex nihilo, couldn't possibly have missed these points.
You misunderstand his goals, and appear to believe he was a wholly sane, well intentioned man rather than one simply consumed with the challenge of building a self-copying machine as soon as technologically possible.
However, if we take this further, we find that there's actually no reason for many of the manual labour jobs.
See above. The kind of robotics necessary to fully automate everything didn't exist. The grandfather substituted brainwashed children in order to get to the "finish line" faster. It is then not strictly speaking a self replicating machine, but a self replicating cyborg.
The most intelligent would be educated and brainwashed separately, and only then would the remainder be limited.
This is shown to occur in Up the Beanstalk.
The pedal power is inefficient to the point of absurdity - the workers would obviously consume more than they produce.
Geothermal is stated to be the primary power source.
the expense of wasting that much metal by building literally everything out of it serves no purpose other than as a metaphor for technology (technology == metal, everything is metal therefore everything is technology). Concrete, brick, and wood are much better and cheaper building materials.
Adding materials means adding complexity and size to the machine. Additional levels are now necessary for manufacturing bricks, and including wood means the machines would no longer be able to spread once all forests are consumed.
Making the machine vertical is just an engineering headache - a horizontal machine is more efficient, since it doesn't require digging or supporting the weight of upper levels, and you don't have to worry as much about miniaturization.
The towers replicate by means of robotic arms, cranes, etc. extending from one tower to the immediately adjacent construction site of the next. This is feasible for a tall, thin structure but not for one that is spread out horizontally.
the offspring towers would be mutable, in a macabre parody of evolution. The outcome of this would be an exponentially self-improving machine.
They still are, due to errors in replication. Our own cells do not intelligently self-modify. The main limiting factor is that it was set off on a planetary surface rather than in space, and would consume everything in the environment before any meaningful evolution could occur.
The rest are legitimate observations, but should be viewed with the understanding that rationality does not equal magnanimity. Rationality just describes how you go about pursuing a goal, it does not dictate what the goal is, just like science.
u/BlueSigil [+1] (19 hours later)
See above. The kind of robotics necessary to fully automate everything didn't exist. The grandfather substituted brainwashed children in order to get to the "finish line" faster. It is then not strictly speaking a self replicating machine, but a self replicating cyborg.
The government is faced with an existential threat, but doesn't think to eliminate the human component necessary for it to spread? It seems that the first thing to do in the face of such a threat is to stop more humans from entering the towers, by whatever means necessary.
u/Aquareon [+1] (19 hours later)
Sure, once they understand wtf it is, how it works and what is happening. The towers do not need humans to replicate, btw, just for maintenance.
The ending illustrated how the rate of replication outpaced our destructive capacity in an era before nukes. The inefficiency of human beaurocratic mechanisms at investigating a threat, devising and then mounting an offensive versus mindless replication as quiclkly as the machines are able. You can defeat an enemy just by expanding faster than they can destroy you until you engulf everything.
u/None [+4] (13 hours later)
Conflict for the conflict god, downvotes for the downvote throne!
u/GrecklePrime [+2] (22 hours later)
While I'm still not sure I buy the setting, I really enjoy your writing style and will gladly read more.
u/Aquareon [+1] (23 hours later)
Thank you for the kind words. inkitt.com/alexbeyman
u/Aquareon [+2] (a minute later)
There were some well founded questions in the thread for Up the Beanstalk as to how the world could possibly turn out that way. Not Long Now sheds some light on that, while also being an overall richer story imo.