9.1 KiB
[D] First Contact
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Author: u/None *
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Score: 14
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Created: 2017-01-15T18:56:43
Post:
Comments:
u/oliwhail [+7] Omake-Maximizing AGI (2 hours later)
Isaac Arthur's entire channel is a great resource for HSF worldbuilding. His "Stupid Aliens" video in particular will probably resonate well with this sub's population.
u/scruiser [+5] CYOA (a day later)
I watched Stupid Aliens... a lot of good points, although mostly stuff I am familiar with or have thought about before. Then I went to the comments... and saw someone arguing that Earth was unique and valuable because of liquid water and ignoring all the corrections other comments gave them about gas giants and frozen comet ice... Just a friendly reminder to never read Youtube comments unless you have a morbid fascination with human idiocy.
u/ianyboo [+5] (2 hours later)
I told Issac about HPMOR yesterday, he said he hadn't heard of it until I mentioned it. Hopefully he stops by here or /r/HPMOR to see what the fuss is about :)
There is a lot of overlap between what he does and the rational fiction we all love :)
u/None [+7] (4 hours later)
HPMOR is a very niche and controversial story. I would have given him a safer story to read.
u/ianyboo [+2] (4 hours later)
I've never thought of HPMOR as controversial, although niche is a fair assessment.
What is the controversial part?
u/scruiser [+16] CYOA (5 hours later)
To give the clearest summary of some of the best of the hater's complaints...
The story claims a pedagogical purpose, however:
One of the main character (Quirrel) who often gives detailed lectures is in fact very evil. Keep in mind how many people on /r/HPMOR thought Quirrel was a good guy, or at least a well meaning extremist, I think all the way up until Hermione's death, some up until the centaur got AK'd and some up until the final reveal. Imagine how this might look to someone who realized Quirrel was evil when he first had Harry beaten up, and how they might perceive the rationalist community as a result (a bunch of edgy nerds or worse, as neoreactionaries or alt-righters).
Another main character (Harry) who gives directly lectures about rationality and science is often mistaken (both in the plot intentionally when Harry makes his many mistakes, and there are some minor quibbles about how EY explains some of the science through Harry).
Dumbledore, who was genuinely right about everything, is treated as stupid/wrong/crazy by all the other characters and the narrative up until the very last chapters.
The original premise of "study magic with science" is used once to manipulate someone, and once to set up a skill to be used in the final chapters, and then ignored throughout much of the rest of the story.
Many chapters are devoted to a fun, but not plot building, remix of Ender's game. Many plot hooks get dropped and not used or only partially used (Bacon's dairy, the Christmas wish, etc.).
Other sore points include:
A 10 year old talking about rape (plausible for the character, but a sudden shift in tone). This tone shift might really throw off readers that were expecting some of the fun and whimsy of the canon Harry Potter series, or who might have been expecting the story to be whimsical and fun from the earlier chapters.
Hermione dying right as she was finally starting to be relevant to the plot, only to come back as Harry's minion (a harsh interpretation yes, but not entirely unfair). Keep in mind the controversy when Hermione was originally killed off, and then how EY asked people not to judge the story until it was finished.
Harry being the most important person in the entire world because prophesy says so.
So yeah, definitely controversial. Even as a fan I wish EY would find it in himself to do the painful task of trying to revise and restructure some of HPMOR to address some of these points.
u/ianyboo [+5] (6 hours later)
Thank you very much for taking the time to explain, some of those I had noticed (like the hanging plot point with the Francis Bacon diary and the way Dumbledore is treated) but most just kinda flew by me and I hadn't considered them to be controversial. Interesting take that some have!
u/eaglejarl [+5] (a day later)
In addition to /u/scruiser's excellent list above, there's one more big one: Harry is an 11-year-old kid who talks like an extremely well-educated adult. Many people complain that Harry comes off as robotic and/or inhuman, or that he's obviously a Gary Stu self-insert, or etc.
It's not an unreasonable complaint -- Harry is a self-insert and his personality and speech are wildly inconsistent with his physical age. He's definitely not a Gary Stu, and there's an in-story reason for his behavior, but it's never explicitly shown (AFAICR) and the pieces necessary to put it together aren't really visible until well into the book.
u/scruiser [+4] CYOA (19 hours later)
I didn't notice most of the flaws on my first or second partial read through (HPMOR wasn't finished yet) or as the chapters were released. However, I think towards the end, I noticed and got slightly annoyed at some of the hanging plot points. I also figured by the Azkaban arc that Quirrel was definitely evil and I got progressively more annoyed at the readers for not realizing it. Upon reconsidering the entire story as a whole, I decided that EY shares some of the blame for people taking so long to recognize Quirrel as evil. Likewise, I wasn't bothered too much by the shift in premise from science up magic to Ender's game remix, to plotting political action, although looking at the story at a whole I can see how it might bother other people. A few of the controversial points, I am actually mostly on EY's side with. Draco's rape line establishes his upbringing and what sort of people Death Eater's really are, and I think the sudden shift in mood it brings to the story is actually a good warning about how much of the rest of the story goes.
u/None [+6] (4 hours later)
You haven't heard? There's a huge hatedom for it.
u/ianyboo [+2] (4 hours later)
Where are these wonderful haters? I wish to read their literature! :)
u/eaglejarl [+2] (a day later)
Here you go:
Why 'Rational Fiction' is inherently problematic.
Fair warning: He starts off by literally defining rational fiction to be bad fanfiction, then goes on from there to explain that all rational fiction is bad. There's a lot of strawmen thrown around and, in my opinion, very little honest debating for the first 13-15 pages. The quality seems to have markedly improved after that, though.
Full disclosure: I was in the thread and it infuriated me, so my above description is doubtless colored by those feelings.
u/ben_oni [+3] (2 days later)
I think "strawmen" is pretty generous. They are not even man-shaped.
u/TwoxMachina [+1] (7 hours later)
Hmm, link him to this reddit? Many good reads.
u/scruiser [+5] CYOA (6 hours later)
If you are looking for less controversial recommendations... perhaps Metropolitan Man for a "rational" fanfiction example or The Waves Arisen for a "rationalist" example.
u/Dragonheart91 [+7] (a day later)
Or better, just recommend The Martian which is widely regarded as one of the most popular and socially acceptable examples of rational fiction. And it is still high quality rational fiction.
u/ianyboo [+1] (6 hours later)
I really enjoyed metropolitan man, I'd forgotten about until now, that is definitely one I will recommend to folks in the future (along with reading it again soon now that it's on my mind)
u/IsaacArthur [+2] (29 days later)
I did give it a bit of read, but unfortunately I've never read Harry Potter and know of it only from seeing the first film adaptation in the theater, back when, what? 2002 maybe? So I had a good deal of trouble following it and gave up pretty early in.
u/ianyboo [+2] (29 days later)
My back up suggestion for those who are not familiar with Harry Potter is usually The Metropolitan Man
HPMOR is definitely not the easiest thing to get into without having the prerequisite Harry Potter information installed in the 'ol meat computer. I appreciate that you gave it a shot, most of my friends and family haven't even gotten that far!