32 KiB
Looking for more gems like Mother of learning (can be fanfictions/ web novels/ crossover fiction)
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Author: u/generalamitt *
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URL: https://www.reddit.com/r/rational/comments/5oatjs/looking_for_more_gems_like_mother_of_learning_can/
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Score: 21
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Created: 2017-01-16T13:26:30
Post:
[removed]
Comments:
u/Mowtom_ [+38] (an hour later)
Why do people keep asking for a male protagonist? That's never quite made sense to me. Would a protagonist's gender really keep someone from enjoying a story?
(note: I'm expressing genuine curiosity, not trying to shame. My apologies if it comes across as shaming.)
u/rizcoco [+22] (2 hours later)
It's actually for a simple reason. Male protagonist + romance = story where they can self-insert as the reader, in a wish fulfillment kind of way.
I remember a similar thread a while back. Found it, same OP.
u/themousehunter [+8] Sunshine Regiment (10 hours later)
Damn, choosing to not read Worm just for that? OP's missing out!
u/Nashkt [+4] (6 hours later)
While I'm sure wish fulfillment can be a factor, could it also not simple because it is easier to identify with a protagonist of the same sex?
I really don't see what the big deal is about having a preference in protagonists.
u/chaosmosis [+4] and with strange aeons, even death may die (14 hours later)
It might also be that people's early exposure to female protagonists is misleading to them. There's a correlation between protagonist gender and themes, especially in children's books.
u/Draconomial [-10] Sunshine Regiment (3 hours later)
Yeah I noticed that too. He's actually posted this request in particular in r/rational before. /u/generalamitt seems to be both chauvinistic and homophobic, from his post history.
u/generalamitt [+15] (3 hours later)
I don't even know how to respond to this... sure, I am a homophobic asshole who hates women because I mostly prefer to read from a certain perspective, solid logic.
u/CeruleanTresses [+9] (4 hours later)
I scrolled a little ways back in your post history to see if I could figure out what they were talking about, because obviously you're right--preferring male protagonists doesn't automatically make you a homophobe, that wouldn't make any sense. But you have posted about how you're "disgusted" by gay (but not lesbian) romance, which I assume is what the above poster was referring to. I realize you specified that you don't have an issue with gay people, but surely you can see how that comes across?
u/generalamitt [+14] (5 hours later)
I am disgusted by the sexual act itself, not by the romance. It's only come across as bad because we live in a society that just love to tag and condemn people. So what if I don't like watching two grown men show physical affection to each other? People have weird aversions to a lot of things. It doesn't mean that I don't respect them as human beings. These days being politically correct is just an impossible task.
You tell someone that you are more attracted to light skin women and suddenly you are a racist.
You make a bad joke about your fatness and feminists call for your blood.( e.g Hugh Mungus)
And apparently it's impossible to prefer reading from male POV without raising some eyebrows.
Sorry for my rant, just needed to get this off my chest.
u/Anderkent [+7] (5 hours later)
Nothing wrong about having preferences, but if people read your comments as value judgements on other people (even if you don't mean them that way), you should consider softening your language.
I.e. say exactly what you said above:
I don't like watching two grown men show physical affection to each other
Rather than
you're "disgusted" by gay (but not lesbian) romance
The second is a statement both about you and the act; it's a judgement. That's because disgust is not just revulsion, but also disapproval.
u/OutOfNiceUsernames [+10] fear of last pages (6 hours later)
That’d just be trying to politcorrect-talk around people’s sensibilities in order to be able to say the same thing, no? “I’m disgusted by x” = “I feel the emotion of disgust when I encounter x.”
Granted, that word is also often used when people try to impose moral judgement upon the subject of the conversation, and I guess someone in OP’s position could go out of their way to choose such a phrasing that would decrease the chances of being misunderstood.
But then again, so could the opposite party give the person they’re speaking with the benefit of the doubt — which (to my observation, at least) is something the offend-able people don’t do that much, if at all.
Hell, during that discussion we’re now talking about, OP stated multiple times that he’s got nothing against gay people themselves and that he just prefers his stories to have straight pairings, and he still got downvoted and condescendingly called a homophobe.
u/Anderkent [+12] (6 hours later)
That’d just be trying to politcorrect-talk around people’s sensibilities in order to be able to say the same thing, no?
No, it's called communicating. If a word has common connotations that you don't want to communicate, you use a different word.
“I’m disgusted by x” = “I feel the emotion of disgust when I encounter x.”
Yes, which is why if you're trying to communicate revulsion without judgement yuo don't say 'disgust', you say it makes you feel squicky, or uncomfortable, or you dislike reading it.
he’s got nothing against gay people themselves and that he just prefers his stories to have straight pairings
No time to read through entire thread right now, but I assume half of the people involved didn't read all of his comments and were just reacting based on the ones they saw.
u/OutOfNiceUsernames [+5] fear of last pages (7 hours later)
Yes, which is why if you're trying to communicate revulsion without judgement yuo don't say 'disgust', you say it makes you feel squicky, or uncomfortable, or you dislike reading it.
Now that you put it that way, I agree, to some degree.
The problem (partially) is that sometimes the person either doesn’t notice that they’re using the less-advisable phrasing, or they can’t use anything better because English is not their first language. And in both cases the polit-correct hivemind aggros at them and loses all reason. And things like that just piss me off, I guess. Ehm, I mean, they make me squicky? Ahaha.
u/Anderkent [+2] (8 hours later)
Right, I agree overreaction is common and is a separate problem. But you can't do anything about the overreaction, whereas you can do things about your word choice ;)
u/throwawayIWGWPC [+1] (6 days later)
I was agreeing with you, but then I thought:
Words like "like, don't like, don't etc.", which are softer, are learned before "hate, disgust, etc."
u/chaosmosis [+1] and with strange aeons, even death may die (14 hours later)
It's hard to accurately connote feelings of distaste without using strong language. The best solution is to moderate language depending on the context in which one is speaking. In casual settings, erring towards politeness makes sense. But if getting across information about one's own mental states is the goal of the discussion, the stronger language becomes more justified.
u/callmebrotherg [+5] now posting as /u/callmesalticidae (7 hours later)
I'm willing to give you the benefit of the doubt, but you can't deny that you pattern match pretty easily for, um, a certain type if you make comments about preferring light skin in and of itself, being disgusted by male homosexuality activity, and only wanting to read stories from a male point of view. Just like, for that matter, if I say that I'm a Mormon, most people are going to think that I'm homophobic.
u/generalamitt [+2] (8 hours later)
But I don't prefer light skin "in and of itself", I prefer it because I am more attracted to light skinned women, just like people who are more attracted to brown eyes, black hair or any other physical appearance. I don't see any worrying pattern to be honest, just a coincidence with bad connotations.
u/callmebrotherg [+7] now posting as /u/callmesalticidae (9 hours later)
What I'm saying is that these things add up, and people will pattern match because that's how the people do, and if you don't want people to pattern match like that then you need to either give more information from the get-go or just not say anything.
u/Rhamni [+2] Aspiring author (6 hours later)
I can sort of see where they are coming from. When I was 13-16 or so I tried to hold on to religion, and while I couldn't dislike gay people, I found the thought of gays kissing repulsive. Somewhere around 16 I discarded religion, and the revulsion just went up in smoke. I remember the split being genuine, though.
u/Draconomial [+2] Sunshine Regiment (4 hours later)
We understand what you want, from the OP. Do you know why you want what you want? Why you are who you are, and how you came to be the person who desires these things? Understanding yourself and your goals will make reaching those goals easier.
u/OutOfNiceUsernames [+4] fear of last pages (8 hours later)
u/CeruleanTresses [+3] (8 hours later)
That was a great movie!
u/CeruleanTresses [+19] (2 hours later)
Plus it seems like an odd thing to specifically request when "male protagonist, includes romance" is practically the default option in popular media. Like, I get asking for stories with particular qualities that are uncommon, but this is not really something you have to explicitly seek out to find it. If anything, it's impossible to get away from male protagonists with romance. To each their own, but I don't get it.
u/Nashkt [+5] (8 hours later)
Even if it is the default, doesn't that just means there is a lot of crap he would have to sort through? Which is why he is making this request to begin with?
u/CeruleanTresses [+2] (8 hours later)
Male protag + romance being the most common means that there's a higher chance that any given work recommended for its plot/style/whatever will also have those qualities.
u/Nashkt [+2] (8 hours later)
I don't see why that means he shouldn't ask for recommendations with those qualities? He wants good stories with those specific qualities, and thus he is asking for recommended titles.
I really don't see the problem here.
u/CeruleanTresses [+1] (8 hours later)
I didn't say it was a problem. I said it was odd.
u/Anderkent [+3] (5 hours later)
Actually, there's not that much romance with a male protagonist? Romance as a genre seems to target women more (for fairly obvious reasons); and those usually have female protagonists.
u/CeruleanTresses [+8] (7 hours later)
That's true of romance-driven plots, but stories with a male protagonist and a romantic subplot are ubiquitous.
u/generalamitt [+5] (2 hours later)
I just have an easier time identifying with male protagonists.
u/GaBeRockKing [+22] Horizon Breach: http://archiveofourown.org/works/6785857 (3 hours later)
But if you ask for one specifically, your threads just get inundated with people talking about your preference for male protagonists. Just don't include that requirement, and ignore all the fics without male leads.
u/generalamitt [+5] (3 hours later)
Yes you are probably right. I just don't understand why people are making such a big deal of a simple preference. No I don't hate women, And I don't think men are superior in any way. But as a male, reading from another male perspective is much more fun for me, especially when romance is involved.
u/TophMelonLord [+9] (4 hours later)
Hey man, I get that and I don't think there is anything wrong with wanting a main character you can identify with, but look at it this way: My main concern with this is that you are missing a lot of really great stuff. Worm is one of the best stories I have read and it has a female protagonist. If you were a woman who could only read books with a female protagonist or from a female perspective (my girlfriend is a bit like this), then you would miss out on Mother of Learning and whatever other books you personally love.
I would try and branch out a little bit in terms of characters you can relate to, because I think you are ignoring a lot of great stories. It's like people who don't eat spicy food. You are missing so much great food! And you are doing it to yourself!
u/generalamitt [+7] (5 hours later)
I also don't like to eat spicy food D:
You know what, I will give Worm a try and see what happens. Admittedly, when I read the hunger games I couldn't put the book down so it's not like I can't enjoy female POV. Hope I won't be disappointed.
u/TophMelonLord [+2] (11 hours later)
Glad to hear! If you can, try to get to Arc 8 - it's my second-favorite part of the story and it's where the whole thing gets kicked into 12th gear.
u/CrystalShadow [+2] (12 hours later)
[deleted]
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^0.4265
u/chaosmosis [+2] and with strange aeons, even death may die (14 hours later)
Another good reason to read Worm is that with that investment you're opening up a large number of potential fanfictions that do meet your criteria.
u/generalamitt [+1] (23 hours later)
Is there a worm fanfic that matches my criteria(male lead, some romance, well written) that I can just start reading without having any prior knowledge?
u/chaosmosis [+1] and with strange aeons, even death may die (a day later)
I don't think so.
u/callmebrotherg [+5] now posting as /u/callmesalticidae (7 hours later)
I just don't understand why people are making such a big deal of a simple preference.
Because we've had redpiller-types ask along the same lines, justifying it not with "It's easier to identify with a male character" but with "Rational female characters are so unrealistic har har" and that's what some people tend to assume is going on when there isn't any clarification to go on.
u/monkyyy0 [+12] (19 minutes later)
pact -wildbow?
u/Adeen_Dragon [+9] (28 minutes later)
Your in luck! I've been on a bit of a reading kick this past month, and recently tried to find out how much I read. It's non-exhaustive, but should give you a nice place to start.
Time Braids: 200,000 Chiaroscuro: 200,000 Team 8 : 275,000 Pokémon the origin of species: 287,000 Hermione Granger and the perfectly reasonable explanation: 110,000 The game of Champions: 128,000 Seventh Horcrux: 105,000 Metropolitan man: 80,000 Dungeon Keeper Ami: 500,000 Mother of learning: 470,000
u/Afforess [+10] Hermione Did Nothing Wrong (47 minutes later)
I second the recommendation for Pokemon, The Origin of Species. It is is very well written and worth the read. Dungeon Keeper Ami is fun, but clearly amateur. Still worth the read in my opinion.
I'd also recommend A Hero's War, by jseah. It has a male protagonist and a little romance. A practical guide to evil is also a lot of fun. It has a female protagonist, but satisfies all your other criteria.
u/Agasthenes [+3] (10 hours later)
Dungeon keeper ami is very amusing. I never watched sailor moon and still enjoyed it. Do you by any chance know how fast it is updated? I just binged it over the holidays.
u/None [+7] (2 hours later)
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u/Adeen_Dragon [+2] (2 hours later)
I was just dumping a list of fics I've read in the past two months; I compiled it for a different reason, but figured I'd drop it here. I knew that it wasn't exactly what OP wanted, but figured that it was better than nothing, which is where we started with.
'Course, we're not there now. Should I delete my comment?
u/chaosmosis [+1] and with strange aeons, even death may die (14 hours later)
Seconding Metropolitan Man, Chiaroscuros, Seventh Horcrux. Time Braid has a female protagonist. MoL is already being read by OP. I found the others sort of iffy. Not arguing with you, just providing OP another set of reactions to judge by.
u/Friedoobrain [+16] (34 minutes later)
Anything by Wildbow. His Magnum Opus Worm has a suposedly female protagonist but she's written so androgynously that you tend to forget it.
There's the Zombie Knight which is pretty good, but has a protagonist crippled by social anxiety. This might be a turn off for some.
Tobwebfiction.com has a list of some of the more popular original webnovels and I use it to look for new stuff sometimes.
For fanfiction, going to fanfiction.net, spacebattles.com or suffiecientvelocity.com checking whats popular and matches your interest might be the best way to go about it. in any of those there are vast amounts of fanfiction for varied tastes.
u/CeruleanTresses [+19] (2 hours later)
I wouldn't say that Taylor was written androgynously. Her gender just wasn't front-and-center or plot-critical, which is also true of many male protagonists.
u/Draconomial [+4] Sunshine Regiment (3 hours later)
Eh. I've noticed that male characters are tempted by girls and women more than female characters, in ways that affects the story. As for female protagonists, they tend to be far less sexual. Of course, I think of many stories that are exceptions.
u/Traim [+3] (10 hours later)
I disagree in my opinion most popular fantasy / scifi books with a female main protagonist released in the recent years since Twilight are mostly romance or when not even sexual orientated.
That is partly why I stopped reading popular fantasy and started looking into light and web novel gems.
u/UltraRedSpectrum [+12] (37 minutes later)
How is Taylor Hebert written "androgynously"?
u/Friedoobrain [+19] (45 minutes later)
This is subjective obviously, but with the exception of one early storyline Spoiler I never felt her gender was noticeable at all. You could have replaced her reproductive organ and changed little in the story but the pronouns.
u/UltraRedSpectrum [+12] (an hour later)
But isn't that true of like 90% of characters (particularly since a hypothetical gay male Taylor could also have been infatuated with Brian)? If Taylor is androgynous, what does a non-androgynous character look like?
u/I_am_your_BRAIN [+11] (2 hours later)
As opposed to one emphasizing masculine/feminine traits as part of their PoV? There's certainly other PoV characters in the story that do emphasize traits like that.
u/Mowtom_ [+2] (2 hours later)
Yeah. I mean, given [Arc 3 or 4 spoiler I think] (#s " her trigger event: being shoved and locked into a locker full of pads and tampons") she feels pretty female to me.
u/Frommerman [+3] (7 hours later)
Hey, I'd probably trigger in that circumstance as well.
u/Nashkt [+1] (8 hours later)
Er, what does that have to do with Taylor being female? That just points out that the people who have it out for her are female. Anyone would react similarly to her circumstances there man.
u/OutOfNiceUsernames [+7] fear of last pages (7 hours later)
The “contains some romance” bit makes it somewhat hard for me to give you recommendations because I generally don’t like when romance has a major role in the plot-buildling, and tend to forget those parts even when they exist. Nevertheless, here are some things you may like:
Novels:
- The Magicians trilogy — Chronicles of Narnia \ Harry Potter deconstruction where even magic can’t cure protag’s depression.
- Replay by Ken Grimwood — protag keeps waking up each time he dies, but each time a bit later into his life.
Webnovels:
- With This Ring — a Young Justice SI fanfic with male protag (WiP). I haven’t read the most recent chapters, but several months ago he was starting to look for a romantic partner. It has some slice of life elements, but it’s not that much of a problem if you’re not waiting for new chapters to come out. There are some idiot balls, but not that many.
- A Hero's War (WiP) — protag wakes up in a middle-ages fantasy setting, and his first obstacle to survival is a Tremors expy. IIRC, had some neat TechnologyUplift going on.
- How to Avoid Death on a Daily Basis — Similarly to the previous story, starts with waking up in a fantasy setting. IIRC, the selling point for this story was that the protag had to survive while he had no special powers, or something like that. Also IIRC, the story somewhat dropped in quality later on.
Translated asian webnovels:
All of these are RPGMechanicsVerse stories in one way or another, so if you don’t like that genre, these won’t be for you, I guess.
- Reincarnator — has some repeating tropes, but otherwise is well-written. Protag goes back in time to try saving humanity after a meta-verse merging event.
- King of the Battlefield — premise is very similar to the previous one, actually.
- Terror Infinity — a jumpchain-type cross-fic that has so far featured the following cinematic universes: Resident Evil series, Alien series, The Grudge, The Mummy, Final Destination series, Jurassic Park, the Vampiric Mask from JoJo, Starship Troopers, The Lord Of The Rings.
- Evolution Theory of the Hunter
- Life Mission
- Dungeon Hunter — this one noticeably drops in quality in later chapters
HP fanfics:
- Too Young to Die — Harry’s sister dies, and he tries to resurrect her. Very good writing.
- Elizium for the Sleepless Souls — a well written horror\suspense.
- HP & the Maw — Harry gets assigned to a crazy battle trainer from hell and tries to survive.
- The Denarian Renegade — Harry gets possessed by a demon, they eventually form a symbiotic relationship.
- Emperor (WiP) — IIRC, Harry makes his way into becoming a mundane army commander, and uses his position to try subduing the magical world.
- With Strength of Steel Wings (WiP) — Harry is raised by a mundane person who suspects about existence of magic.
Naruto fanfics:
- The Waves Arisen — Naruto tries his hand at munchkining using kage bunshin, and some other things.
u/waylandertheslayer [+3] (9 hours later)
Seconding The Waves Arisen and adding to Naruto fanfics:
Lighting up the Dark - A HPMOR-inspired rational!Naruto
Team 7's Ascension: Blood Wings - A dark-ish AU centred around Team 7. It's part of a planned trilogy; the second part is also finished and the author's on a break before starting the third part.
u/chaosmosis [+3] and with strange aeons, even death may die (14 hours later)
Seconding The Waves Arisen and adding to Naruto fanfics:
Thirding.
u/thrawnca [+5] Carbon-based biped (6 hours later)
Mother of Learning doesn't and won't contain romance, the author has clearly stated that. I don't feel that that detracts at all from it, though; I agree that it sets a high standard.
Presumably that means that you're OK with unfinished-but-living works?
I finally checked out A Hero's War recently, and binged it all. Lots of magitech, interesting effort to deal with the economic and social ramifications of introducing the industrial revolution. Romance is present, but not overstated; though bear in mind that it's unfinished.
The only point that seemed to ring a bit false was perhaps a bit too much idealism about how people would react to massive social and technological change. There's push-back, certainly, but I would expect more.
I can't say that I identify with your identifying more with male protagonists, but to each zeir own, I guess.
If you're willing to branch out from that, the Arithmancer is fun, exploring "What if Hermione was a genius at maths instead of a bookworm?" It only covers years 1-4, though, and the sequel is IMO moving a bit slowly.
Have you read everything on rationalfiction.io? I enjoyed some of them more than others, but if you like MoL, they're all worth checking out. Bear in mind that that site doesn't always have the complete story uploaded.
u/most-real-struggle [+3] (12 hours later)
And They Shall Reap The Whirlwind is a self insert into the life of bomber harris. It's long and well done.
Set in Stone A rational/ist Stonepunk story set in the future on planet controlled by an AI in an agrarian society. A very interesting and enjoyable story. /u/farmerbob1 's other story Symbiote was also pretty good.
Savage Divinity I remember the start being a little slow, but seriously awesome world-building. Has a fair amount of romance
A modern man finds himself reincarnated in the body of a young slave with no skills and quickly fading memories. Follow his journey to find normalcy while living in a savage world, filled with myth and legends, monsters and Demons. In a land where the strong rule, the weak serve, and bloodshed is a way of life, peace is a luxury few can afford... Less action, more character and world driven is my aim. Mature language and themes, but no raunchy sex.
Updates 3 times a week usually, currently I get more excited by updates from this than from MOL.
The Last Angel is a story where humanity lost a war and was conquered, but humanities most powerful weapon, an AI Battleship, continues the war 1500 years later. It's been 4 years since I've read it and from what I remember it switches genres to a survival horror novel about halfway in for 20 chapters or so. Really good and apparently there is a sequel that I am going now going to have to check out.
The Gam3 is an extremely well done Litrpg. If its something you like the author has published an edited version of the first book Opening Moves with some extra content. Its the best LitRPG I've read, feels smooth and not clunky.
u/None [+5] (2 hours later)
We have a monthly recommendation thread for that reason.
u/Terkala [+2] (9 hours later)
If you're willing to give light novels a second chance, check out Overlord. Its far and away the most professionally written light novel.
There is also Harry potter and the natural 20. D&D Harry potter.
If you want to branch out to scifi, /r/hfy has a lot of really good stories. Check the sidebar for the genre defining reads.
u/PeridexisErrant [+1] put aside fear for courage, and death for life (15 hours later)
Removed as 'off-topic' - if you want to request recommendations, please use the weekly off-topic thread.
u/Areign [+1] (7 hours later)
I have a very similar post saved,
you could look at the suggestions here:
https://www.reddit.com/r/rational/comments/54bz8l/q_recommendations_similar_to_mother_of_learning/
u/RandomChance [+1] (7 hours later)
Legion of Nothing serial by Jim Zoetewey http://inmydaydreams.com/ Collection of first story arc on Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/Legion-Nothing-1-Rebirth-ebook/dp/B00IR2CLUU
NOT RationalFic like the top of your list, but in line with a number of other recommendations in the thread and I think probably appealing to a lot of the same readers.
Not especially action packed for something in the superhero genre, but really good - Protagonist starts story in late high school (?). Grandson of Golden Age IronMan / Rocketeer analog - He is a bit of a cross between modern Geek/Engineer and a Modesetti Hero. There is a romance thread but so far the series has kept everything (including drinking/smoking/drugs/language) mostly PG - PG13. Violence is also usually not vicerally graphic.
I found it one of the most Unique and interesting takes on the Super Hero genre going on right now. It has a wonderful mix of post Marvel/DC deconstruction of the standard tropes plus a delightfully earnest retro Golden Age vibe with a hint of inventor punk for spice.
u/Teigne [+1] (9 hours later)
There is A Voice Across the Void, set in the Star Wars universe, featuring a male protagonist who successfully levels up using dubious means in a universe whose rules he comes to understand over time. Contains a few sparks of romance
u/beardedrabbit [+1] (11 hours later)
As other people have said, Worm's MC is female but you almost never notice it at all. I guess it's fairly light on the romance side of things, but it has all the smart writing that you're craving. It's also a monster of a read at something like 12,000 pages.
A Practical Guide To Evil is another one with a female MC, but again, it almost never comes up.
Pokemon and the origin of species, as well as the uncompleted Game of Champions, are both awesome as well.