125 KiB
[RT][HF]Mother of Learning Chapter 65: Dangerous Ground
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Author: u/Fredlage *
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URL: https://www.fictionpress.com/s/2961893/65/Mother-of-Learning
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Score: 175
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Created: 2017-02-12T22:32:25
Post:
Comments:
u/23143567 [+46] (40 minutes later)
The Daimen meeting is almost there... Next chapter sounds like loads of fun.
u/MoralRelativity [+27] (59 minutes later)
Also finding out why his parents are going to meet Damian too. There's got to be a good reason when travel takes a month each way.
u/thrawnca [+35] Carbon-based biped (an hour later)
If it turns out that Zorian could have found out loads of helpful information about the Key just by talking to his mother any time in the past 4 years, then he's going to be kicking himself. Maybe he'll literally summon an extra simulacrum just for the purpose of kicking himself.
u/Frommerman [+24] (3 hours later)
Wouldn't that be sweet justice? Kid actively avoids his family except his kid sister for four years, going so far as to teleport out of their house on some occasions, then finds out his entire quest would have been five times simpler if he'd done literally anything else.
u/MoralRelativity [+3] (4 hours later)
Oh, that would be so funny. Both the need to talk with his mother, and him getting kicked by his simulacrum. Do you think the simulacrum would enjoy it?
u/braiam [+3] (4 hours later)
Nope, he would get kicked back and the memories of the pain transmitted to the original.
u/Xtraordinaire [+3] Team Glimglam (18 hours later)
He knows about the key only for several months so I doubt that it will be that way. I did say back when he warmed up to Kirielle that maybe he will improve relationships with other family members as well. Kinda went that way with Fortov.
So maybe Damian will get some love too. After ZnZ wipe the floor with him, of course.
u/thrawnca [+5] Carbon-based biped (23 hours later)
He knows about the key only for several months
But what if talking to his mother about what Daimen is doing would have given him clues to it years earlier? Or, at least, given him information whose importance became clear as soon as he learned about the Key?
After ZnZ wipe the floor with him
Time will tell, but I suspect that after Zorian has spent so long griping about his older brother, the story won't give him that satisfaction :D.
u/None [+15] (an hour later)
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u/WalkingHorror [+2] (a day later)
It seems really out of character for their father, who's been portrayed as not the type to have fun and show affection, only approval. I suspect there will be some big event with lots of nobles and merchants, and his father wants to make some connections. Maybe treasure auction or something.
u/MoralRelativity [+1] (4 hours later)
You may be right; but I think it's going to be something more significant.
u/thrawnca [+18] Carbon-based biped (2 hours later)
I suspect Daimen will turn out to be much friendlier than Zorian gave him credit for. And he'll get along great with Zach :D. Leading to a split, with Zach and Daimen on one side, and n Zorians on the other...
u/FireHawkDelta [+20] ** (5 hours later)
This would be great. Daimen saying he regrets how he was as a teenager and currently being an alright guy, leaving Zorian with no one to get sibling justice on.
u/-Fender- [+11] (7 hours later)
I still think that it's quite likely that Daimen is a psychic, like Zorian. No idea to what extent, though.
u/kaukamieli [+26] (13 hours later)
He got a bit too much of the bloodline and is a psychic spider. Nobody just noticed anything because mind magic.
u/throwawayIWGWPC [+1] (a day later)
Ba dum chhh
u/thrawnca [+4] Carbon-based biped (2 days later)
Zorian speculated that Daimen may be an active psychic, back when Batak told him that empathy is usually hereditary. Apparently Daimen is good at reading people.
I'm guessing that Daimen has only empathy, not telepathy, but has better control of it than Zorian previously did.
u/actualmoneytipbot [+1] (11 days later)
That would explain his amazing progress. We already know their family births psychics, and that enough to explain his amazing skills (reading teachers mind, reading info about their skills etc, using it to find people interests etc and get on their good side) , so there is no reason to suppose he is already a genius. In other words they are a family with occasional psychics not psychics and geniuses.
u/ProfessorPhi [+1] (19 hours later)
I still think Damien is a bad guy or has a link to the time travel thing. He's been name dropped so often, even though he's never actually been a character yet.
u/None [+44] (an hour later)
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u/thrawnca [+24] Carbon-based biped (an hour later)
sounds very AI-ish
Agreed. No mind (at least not a recognisable one), no soul, predictable behavior. Sounds like a computer program to me.
what else pocket dimensions could be used for?
Well, in the long term, I'm sure that they could massively increase the efficiency of Black Rooms. But that's not feasible to try within the Sovereign loop.
u/None [+8] (2 hours later)
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u/Frommerman [+7] (7 hours later)
Maybe they're using soul magic because it's the closest analogue they understand to whatever they should be using. It's like using a dusty N64 cartridge: It'll work, sometimes, but you need to jiggle it around a little bit and keep trying to fire it up.
u/actualmoneytipbot [+1] (11 days later)
Or they are all in a simulation and soul magic is just hacking/console commands, ether it's an AI on an AI core or simulated human on an AI core. I mean we already know the time loop world is a simulation and we see artifacts that are AI's and are not possible even in the parent world. So therefore that may be a simulation too (or not like they think it is).
u/kaukamieli [+17] (10 hours later)
Oh... The Sovereign Gate is a computer!
This is all a computer simulation.
Sovereign gate has this fancy AI that your soul can hook into. Then it simulates the world, but it can't handle simulating gods or stuff.
User gets better at magic, because it interacts with the admins soul and magical power is about information, which the soul can get there, and the computer is so fast multiple time loops can happen instantly until it runs out of power.
The computer can simulate souls and hook any real soul to a simulated soul, which is how Zorian got there. It can also save the data back to the real soul, which is what Z&Z are trying to do.
Probably not the first to think about this. There was the talk about ADMIN keys and stuff after all, when they touched the gate.
Time looping really is impossible. But they bypassed that by having blazing fast virtual reality that can feed you back what you learned.
That's also how the black room operates. It's just very very slow compared to that and the area is very very limited.
EDIT: black room can't operate like that, could be real time magic, but is probably a trick of some kind as it's closed off the world for the time.
u/throwawayIWGWPC [+6] (a day later)
Essentially, what you're saying is . . .
The sovereign gate is an elaborate illusion, and by illusion, I mean a magical and purely graphic/haptic interface that models the world---a literal computer simulation.
Rather than rebuilding the world atom-for-atom, it just models the world graphically/hapticly. This approach would require significantly less mana to do, especially because the area you would need to time dilate would not need to be bigger than a freaking laundry closet.
The marked soul would feel like it's interacting with real stuff, thus giving realistic training for a fraction of the mana cost.
u/kaukamieli [+2] (a day later)
The marked soul would feel like it's interacting with real stuff, thus giving realistic training for a fraction of the mana cost.
Yes, and magical power is just data in the soul. They probably didn't know enough about soul to just tweak some numbers with "hexedit", so they simulated the thing instead. Like we can't just code AI that is good at playing Go, but we had to show it games and make it learn instead.
u/throwawayIWGWPC [+5] (a day later)
Right. That level of fine tweaking is beyond us right now and was probably beyond the capabilities of the Maker as well.
In fact, as a rule, knowledge may be too complex to efficiently upload into someone's mind wholesale. Running a computer or a person through a speed simulation may be, surprisingly (or unsurprisingly, giving the current state of machine learning), the best way of assimilating knowledge.
u/GoXDS [+5] (2 days later)
oh, and probably the strongest evidence to contradict a simulation is the one month limit. the Guardian has stated that the whole reason one month was set is because mass killing of souls is unethical but killing a copy is tolerable. one month is within tolerance of a copy soul being "the same" as the original as there's not enough divergence to claim they're different. but if it's all a simulation, none of the simulated souls are actual, real souls. then there should be no ethical issues at all in wiping it out, is there?
u/throwawayIWGWPC [+5] (2 days later)
Yeah, there's definitely the opinion that if an AI is advanced enough to make it indistinguishable in behavior from a person, then it is a person in all important ways. Turning it off is equivalent, or at least is nearly equivalent, to killing a person, and that should give us just as much pause.
I'm glad this theory was proposed and explored by you guys. It led to some interesting places.
/u/kaukamieli
u/kaukamieli [+2] (2 days later)
You know some people think it is not ok to kill an AI, so about those ethical issues...
But I do agree I've been presented with some good reasons why this is not it.
u/throwawayIWGWPC [+3] (a day later)
You may want to give chapters 54 and 55 a reread. As much as I like this hypothesis, I was looking at these chapters and they cast doubt on the computer simulation idea.
u/GoXDS [+2] (21 hours later)
if there's a "real" soul to feed back to, there's no reason the simulated souls should ever receive dmg that stays across restarts
u/kaukamieli [+3] (21 hours later)
Only if you want to lose the damage too. It doesn't reload the "real" soul every time and save stuff back to it. It copies your soul when you start and only overwrites the original if you "exit" before the system crumbles. It can only save the whole state, not just what you learned and stuff.
Technically it could have been built to notice when the soul is too damaged to save and use a backup of the soul instead, but it apparently wasn't. Though if you don't remember the last reset, you would just do same things again.
u/GoXDS [+1] (21 hours later)
there's also the fact that Zorian can loop. if there's a real soul to feed back to, then it's reasonable and safer for simulated souls to always check with the connection before every restart to see if the soul should be saved or not.
u/kaukamieli [+1] (22 hours later)
Maybe it's very hard to check the condition of the soul? You can't just check for changes in general.
u/GoXDS [+2] (a day later)
sry, I took a different approach. this time I meant when the restart happens, the system checks if the simulated soul matches with the real soul. if it passes the check, then save the simulated soul. rather than free pass simply for having a marker. this is also a good method to make sure the soul wasn't utterly damaged. should be possible given what we know.
souls can be differentiated if souls really are records for the gods
souls can be checked for dmg. there's many different things that imply such, with soul bonding, soul magic/sight, soul scans, etc.
but yea, basically I don't think simulated looper soul holds water
u/kaukamieli [+1] (a day later)
You can't just check if simulated soul matches with the real soul. If you have learned anything, it's not a 100% match.
Sure, some magic could check for some damage. Maybe it does have some of that, but not enough of that has happened?
But as I said, not saving simply wouldn't be enough. If Zorian went through the loop without remembering last one, it would be just like the last one. Except ofc for the fact that there are other loopers now.
The thing is, the maker of the loop didn't probably mean the thing for reckless shit like taking on liches. There is no reason you should have such soul damage. It's not developed with ultimate security in mind and everything thought out, we know that already.
The one real mistake on my text was the black rooms, might be real time magic there, they do use the food and stuff they take there.
u/GoXDS [+1] (a day later)
don't forget that the marker can check the soul to prevent copying. in other words, souls are identifiable enough even with growth. just like you can recognize someone as an adult if you knew them as a kid
u/kaukamieli [+2] (a day later)
Identifiable enough to check if it's somewhat the same person. Probably not identifiable enough to just read the data from it and modify stuff like how strong it is magically and what it has learned.
AlphaGo Go software can beat the best professionals. We can't check how it "thinks", it's a black box that can output some things so it can say stuff like what it thinks is the best move, but not necessarily why.
It had to be taught by showing it bunch of games. Pretty much what is happening to Zorian. To gods souls might be like our blackbox AI to us.
u/GoXDS [+1] (a day later)
? that's all I was asking for, no? enough for identity check. safer looping check than simply having a marker. not sure what you're getting at with modification. this does bring up another question: what happens at the end? is real soul "updated" with the simulated soul, swapped out, or what? swapped out goes against the basis of the loop and why Controller gets to leave. updated implies the Creator knows enough about Soul magic to do such a thing and that all your issues with identifying and modding the soul to be invalid imo
and I don't think their gods, as flawed as they might be, are on the same lvl of understanding as us with AlphaGo. there's probably not enough information to really debate this tho
u/throwawayIWGWPC [+2] (a day later)
The guardian confirmed that the controller's real soul participates in the simulation, so it is updated in real time.
We can still answer your question about updating the original, though, because that's what Zorian will have to do: The pre-loop soul is thrown out and the new one replaces it. Or if Zorian can physically leave the loop, he also has the awkward option of just letting pre-loop Zorian live.
u/GoXDS [+1] (a day later)
we're working on kaukamieli's scenario, and in this scenario, the real soul is connected to the system but isn't actually participating in the simulation. and see my latest response to him with the problems that his scenario runs into
u/kaukamieli [+1] (a day later)
I didn't understand what you were implying by identification. Maybe the marker was a dirty hack, but it allows the admin to push some buttons on the go. Settings travels with you.
In the end the original gets overwritten by the version that has learned stuff. Why would it go agaimst something? Updating parts would imply enough knowledge, that's why it is total.
edit: Just checking if the person is the same that came in isn't enough to check for damage. If you look for 100% match, you'll automatically fail. Learning makes changes to you. You aren't the same person you were a year ago. So you'd have to check for bigger differences. It wouldn't be exact enough I think.
u/GoXDS [+1] (a day later)
as I said, I changed the question/counterpoint to your scenario with a different approach. so I wasn't referring to dmg check past my first comment
a swap would mean killing the original and putting the simulated into the original body and that is what's against the basis of the loop, thus this is probably not what you were going for.
and as I mentioned, there's ways to check for the identity of a soul even after changes. I was never asking for a 100% exact confirmation. hence why the marker works in the story and is pointless to copy but also doesn't backfire and reject the intended Controller one second later when the soul grows/changes. this identification process already exists
if the real soul is overwritten with the simulated soul, why even have this extra degree of separation? why not just send in the real soul (which basically makes your computer simulation scenario effectively the same as the story's current hypothesized scenario)? as you mentioned, the loop wasn't built with ultimate safety in mind nor (in your opinion) made with fighting OP liches in mind so it shouldn't be an issue. you could say it's for that safety in the off chance that the soul is dmged too greatly, the loop can abort with 0 changes to the real soul (ALL progress aborted) but eh. as you mentioned, it's pointless to revert to a previous copy of the simulated soul since it'll just repeat so an abort is the only option in that case
and imo, if the Creator is at a good enough lvl with soul magic to overwrite souls, he's capable of identifying souls
u/kaukamieli [+1] (a day later)
a swap would mean killing the original and putting the simulated into the original body and that is what's against the basis of the loop, thus this is probably not what you were going for.
It kinda is... If content of the soul is just information, there should not be a problem with 1:1 rewrite of the information in the soul. So there should not be a problem with a rewrite that is like the original, but has learned stuff either. It doesn't swap the soul, it swaps the contents. The devil is in the details I guess. It's also possible that soul is not 100% information, but the relevant parts are and that's what is used here so that not whole soul gets rewritten. Ofc one can argue there are ethical problems.
if the real soul is overwritten with the simulated soul, why even have this extra degree of separation? why not just send in the real soul (which basically makes your computer simulation scenario effectively the same as the story's current hypothesized scenario)?
Because you can not. It's a computer. It can't handle souls. It can communicate with them and can handle information. It gets the information from the souls and plays with them and can then output the information back to the souls.
he's capable of identifying souls
I'm really not sure where you are going with this. I'll take time to reread this whole thing and think.
u/GoXDS [+1] (a day later)
I guess you just assumed that the simulated soul can't physically leave the loop at all since the simulation is just that. a simulation and thus not real. but still, I obviously didn't mean a data swap? first, the process you described is effectively the same as overwriting except with the added action of rewriting the simulated soul to become what the real soul originally was. what's the point of that added step? plus I already explained what I meant explicitly. physically switching the positions of the simulated soul and the real soul. so the simulated soul now resides in the real body while the real soul is in simulated loop (and thus wiped/killed)
the soul is also not just information. there's life force/mana and there's also production of and processing of mana. and this last part is also an important part that grows
let's take another approach to your computer scenario. let's take it to the logical extreme. if the simulated is not real at all, then there's absolutely and utterly no way for loop!Zorian to escape at all. ever. his only option is to overwrite Zach's soul but that'd require sacrificing Zach.
the other extreme. if it's all a pure computer simulation, then to some extent the computer must be performing all calculations for every action. in that case, it should be quite simple to rewind to the exact moment before any and all soul dmg. at the very least, it'd be easy/obvious to include this function: if the soul takes too much dmg, record time into loop this occurs. reload the soul from the start of the loop. allow soul to repeat exact loop up to point where they suffered soul dmg. force restart early right before the time recorded
why's identifying souls important? that was what I was arguing for the whole time and you were denying the whole time. the marker currently always identifies its host soul to check if it should be working. so there's already no denying that the Creator (or the computer in your scenario) can identify souls. and I was arguing it'd be safer and more foolproof to compare the real soul to the host soul rather than simply checking the host soul
u/kaukamieli [+1] (a day later)
if the simulated is not real at all, then there's absolutely and utterly no way for loop!Zorian to escape at all. ever. his only option is to overwrite Zach's soul but that'd require sacrificing Zach.
No, it can interact with any soul as it obviously has been able to copy them.
u/GoXDS [+1] (a day later)
being able to copy doesn't mean anything. your scenario specifically state that you must hook the Controller's soul into the simulation. thus all other souls are not connected and shouldn't be accessible. it'd be a serious oversight and breach of intention if the simulation had access/power to affect unhooked souls
u/throwawayIWGWPC [+1] (2 days later)
True, the Guardian does have the ability to on the fly swap certain souls---it admitted it can do this, but wouldn't, probably unless presented with the Keys.
u/throwawayIWGWPC [+1] (2 days later)
it should be quite simple to rewind to the exact moment before any and all soul dmg
Backing up the previous loop's copy of Zach's soul to use as a replacement in case of soul damage would be entirely feasible.
However, rewinding is more complicated. This depends on how the simulation is run. It's more likely that a simulation as complex as this is inherently chaotic and cannot be rewound.
And if the simulation throws away information from previous loops except for information belonging to marked "souls" (garbage collection in programming terms, which saves memory usage), then rewinding would be impossible even if the simulation were deterministic.
u/GoXDS [+1] (2 days later)
I gave an alternative method that wouldn't require actually rewinding, which is reloading and force restart right before the dmg, which is effectively rewinding (but costs 1 extra restart)
u/throwawayIWGWPC [+1] (2 days later)
and I was arguing it'd be safer and more foolproof to compare the real soul to the host soul rather than simply checking the host soul
Yes, it's safer to check the entire soul for its identity, but identity is a difficult concept.
so there's already no denying that the Creator (or the computer in your scenario) can identify souls
Identifying a soul and checking whether a soul has a "is the controller" tag may algorithmically very different operations---many orders of magnitude different.
u/GoXDS [+1] (2 days later)
how else would the marker identify the correct host if not identity? it seems to be checking the soul holistically. if not, it'd imply at least 1 of two things. the Maker knows enough about souls to identify and target "unchangeable" parts of the soul, the part that the markers are checking for "is controller" (this also then implies that such a part is unique, and thus easily used for identity). or the Maker can force certain parts to never change, which also implies a degree of understanding (no negative consequences and such).
u/throwawayIWGWPC [+1] (a day later)
and imo, if the Creator is at a good enough lvl with soul magic to overwrite souls, he's capable of identifying souls
I disagree with this. From the perspective of programming, overwriting data couldn't be simpler. I'll use Python for the sake of simplicity:
# The state of pre-loop Zach. zach = {pre-loop data} # Overwrite with new Zach. zach = {post-loop data}Marking data as having or not having a tag is also very simple:
# Give Zorian the marker. zorian["isController"] = True # Zorian pings Sovereign Gate. if zorian["isController"]: giveAccessTo(zorian)However, identification of a complex piece of data can be a very involved process. Often times you have to store an entire copy of the data in question, so you'd have to basically have a template Zach lying around to check against anyone claiming to be Zach. And then to perform that check, you'd have to take every aspect of your Zach template and check it against every aspect of the person claiming to be Zach, one aspect at a time, until either a discrepancy is reached or you've checked the entirety of the Zach template against the person who claims to be Zach.
# Make template. zachTemplate = zach # Compare each in Zach... for eachX in zachTemplate: # ...against each in Zorian. for eachY in zorian: if eachX == eachY: sameSoul = True else: sameSoul = False if sameSoul: giveAccessTo(zorian)It's eight lines of code compared to two lines of code in the previous example. However, considering how much information is stored in a soul, those eight lines of code represent innumerable checks as each aspect of a soul is checked against each aspect of the template. Compare that with a tag that can be examined with a single check!
And then, even the above algorithm wouldn't be appropriate to check a soul's identity because Zach's soul is supposed to change and develop over the course of the loop. So instead, the developer of the Sovereign Gate would have to think very hard about what aspects of a person's soul are unique and immutable.
If the soul has an immutable ID number, then the check is easy, but soul ID numbers are unlikely. Souls were created by sentient beings, and recognition of a unique individual is not very difficult for sentient beings. You said earlier that we can easily recognize a person even if they've aged, so there's no reason for the gods to have stamped every soul with an ID number. However, how do you teach a programmed spell to repeat that trick? It takes sophisticated software to identify a person. Can you articulate clearly what makes so-and-so unique in a way that a program can easily check?
This kind of recognition is a major difficulty in computer science and has been in the works for decades---and you're asking a spell to do this in a world where magic can change so many aspects of a person's identity.
Even in philosophy, these are serious and complex questions without easy answers: What makes you who you are? Is the person you are now the same person who existed a second ago or a month ago or ten years ago? In philosophy, a well-supported and popular answer to that last question is, "No, past you and present you are not the same person. You are two people who are similar, share many properties, but are different in important ways."
Compare that rabbit hole with the straightforward process of attaching a marker to a person's soul. And in Mother of Learning, there are many instances where a ward needs to identify whether someone is friend or foe, and this is always done by attaching a marker to the person, either as a physical object or as a mark on the soul, which is much easier than grappling with the complex topic of the Philosophy of Self.
u/GoXDS [+2] (a day later)
regardless of the difficulty, it's already being done. as I mentioned, the marker already does this. also, there's technology these days that are better at identifying faces than humans
u/throwawayIWGWPC [+1] (2 days later)
regardless of the difficulty, it's already being done. as I mentioned, the marker already does this.
I'm not sure what you mean. We already know that the Guardian cannot identify souls in their entirety; it only recognizes whether or not the soul carries the marker.
"Guardian, how many people are you talking with right now?"
"Only the Controller can access this place," the guardian placidly answered."
The Guardian doesn't even seem to recognize that there are different souls present---only that when souls tried to access the Gate, those souls had the marker.
there's technology these days that are better at identifying faces than humans
Yes, indeed some drone strikes are now carried out by physical recognition. But it took decades and a large army of researchers to figure that out and it's still imperfect---and in this magical setting, the recognition would involve deep, deep soul probes to make complicated equivalency judgments based on complex criteria.
Compare that with attaching a soul marker, which might take a master soul mage a few seconds to do. In fact, Zorian casually alludes to the process when thinking about how Sudomir grants entry to his mansion.
u/GoXDS [+1] (2 days later)
The Guardian only checks for an active Marker. and/or if something directly contradicts the information it has, it'll default to that information without bothering to check if said info is wrong. so in that example, it knows there should only be one Controller and only the Controller can talk to it so it automatically responds that there's only one Controller, without even bothering to check that there are indeed 2 Markers present. it probably can't even answer how many Markers are present, and there's no denying that is possible to check, right? plus, the point is that the marker is able to identify the host soul to prevent copy
the Maker is knowledgeable and powerful enough to understand and manipulate souls however it wants. my pt anyways is that it should be possible to holistically identify unique souls, even algorithmically. if we succeeded (mostly) in such an endeavor with faces, I'd argue that a powerful soul mage such as the Maker can, too. even easier if the Maker was a god, one involved in "inventing" the soul in the first place
u/throwawayIWGWPC [+1] (2 days later)
there's no denying that is possible to check, right?
Strangely enough, that assumption may be incorrect. From a programming perspective, there's a stark difference between checking that something exists versus counting how many of something there are, then checking if the number is valid.
Checking for existence:
if zorian["isController"]: giveAccessTo(zorian)Checking for existence, counting, and comparing if the number is acceptable:
controllerCounter = 0 if zorian["isController"]: controllerCounter += 1 if controllerCounter == 1: giveAccessTo(zorian) else: freakOut()If the Maker did not expect the possibility of multiple controllers, then, as strange as it sounds, there's no reason to believe the Gate has a way of dealing with that issue.
It really makes one appreciate the inner workings of the mind and our ability to deal with unforeseen problems on the fly. Simple control algorithms can only do precisely what they are told to do, so dealing even simple departures from the norm require foresight and tailored error handling subroutines.
u/throwawayIWGWPC [+1] (2 days later)
I'd argue that a powerful soul mage such as the Maker can, too
Are you saying that hundreds or thousands of computer programmers with years, even decades of experience working on a problem over the course of decades are equivalent to one or even a small group of soul mages working in secret?
Remember too that face recognition is an incredibly simple problem when compared against soul recognition, as souls are even more complex.
And on top of that, soul recognition isn't the point of the Sovereign Gate. The point is to accomplish the unbelievable feat of recreating an entire planet in all its detail, recreate all the bodies, all the souls, store it in a pocket dimension, temporally accelerate that dimension by a factor of . . . what's 1000 years / 1 second? About ten billion. And then destroy and recreate the world and everything hundreds or thousands of times. That's already super difficult.
Then, add the difficult feat of soul recognition, which would be significantly more complex than facial recognition, which was already very difficulty. I see no reason to go to all that trouble to prevent an edge case scenario of the controller encountering an enemy that would mangle the controller's soul in a very specific way, especially when putting a little marker on a soul is so much simpler and accomplishes the task more efficiently, except in certain extreme and possibly unforeseen cases.
To top it off, in normal circumstances, the controller would be well-trained in basic soul magic to begin with---which would not only allow the controller to access the switches on the marker as a fail-safe, but would also give the controller basic soul defenses. Not only that, but we already know that the loop resets if it senses Zach's soul getting tampered with---but in the case of QI's fateful spell, that fail-safe did not occur quickly enough.
It seems to me that the Maker put a decent number of safe guards in place. This is just a very strange scenario where Zach (if he actually is the original controller) was unexpectedly ill-prepared to use the Sovereign Gate.
What's more is that the Maker had the good sense of not allowing the loop to collapse if a controller exited. It's possible that the program instead checks if a controller exists inside the loop before collapsing everything. In this sense, the Gate may be working perfectly: Although soul shenanigans happened, the controller(s) are still alive within the loop and are able to try to find the Keys or maybe some other way out.
Also, I believe the Sovereign Gate is over a thousand years old. In that time, maybe some exotic spells were created that the Maker did not anticipate. We can't expect a piece of hardware to account for all subsequent advances a thousand or more years down the line; even with all our technology, we can barely account for the advances of the next five or ten years.
u/GoXDS [+1] (2 days later)
then at least answer this. how does the marker know its host soul is the Controller? it has to identify the soul somehow and said soul is also changing and growing. I already pointed to a problem with a marker that grows with the soul since Zorian and Zach's marker would diverge enough that the ritual to find said marker should've failed to find Zach's.
also, at this point in time, since we really don't have the information to conclude definitively, that you think soul identification is difficult is only a conjecture/your opinion. what makes you think souls are so unidentifiable? just because they're complex? you do not know if souls have anything that would be usable as a unique identifier. there's nothing that says each soul can't have a unique, unchanging portion that the marker (or any soul sight/scan) can't use to identify souls. souls are also aren't so complex that they can't be understood at all either. otherwise soul scans wouldn't be possible and identifying foreign soul matter would also be impossible. I believe identifying souls is roughly at the same lvl of difficulty as facial recognition. heck, Zorian can recognize different minds, including differentiating individuals of foreign species and I'm sure we can both agree the mind is very complex
putting things another way. if the gods created souls to be used as records, why wouldn't they build in a method of identification?
and yes, I'd say that the mage(s) is equivalent or surpasses that of our world's programmers. they are vaaaaaastly powerful. the marker is way too sophisticated for anything less than very indepth knowledge and understanding of souls. who's to say they didn't have as much time either? the more difficult/powerful the looping process and the more powerful/resourceful the Maker, the more likely the Maker is able to do something like identifying souls imo
in any case, there's a glaring contradiction with the theory that the loop is a simulation. if nothing in the simulation's real then there's no ethical issue with wiping everything and no reason to set a 1 month limit on loops
u/throwawayIWGWPC [+1] (2 days later)
then at least answer this. how does the marker know its host soul is the Controller? it has to identify the soul somehow and said soul is also changing and growing.
The marker wouldn't need to know the host soul is the controller. For example, say I have a shirt and I attach a tag to it that has "Controller" written on it, I can do a lot of things, drastic things, to change that shirt---paint it, sew new things on it, cut it down to be a rag---and the tag will still be attached as long as I didn't alter the part of the cloth where the tag is attached.
That's a physical metaphor, but in programming, there are a few different ways to create data structures that work in the same way. To avoid going into too much detail, here are some terms you can Google if you want to know more: "Python" and then one of the following---lists, dictionaries, objects. The first two are pretty straightforward to understand, whereas objects are a complex topic.
If you're interested in programming by the way, Automate the Boring Stuff with Python: Practical Programming for Total Beginners is freaking great. Python is a powerful language that's easy and fun to learn.
u/thrawnca [+1] Carbon-based biped (15 days later)
Note that the outer layer of the soul can change, but the core doesn't, apparently. See chapter 39.
If Zorian were the original Controller, it might be safe enough for him to become a shifter. Hard to say for sure. However, since he's only looping by virtue of his marker being broken, it would be risky for him to alter anything.
u/throwawayIWGWPC [+1] (2 days later)
that you think soul identification is difficult is only a conjecture/your opinion. what makes you think souls are so unidentifiable? just because they're complex? you do not know if souls have anything that would be usable as a unique identifier
You're right, it's somewhat conjecture, but it's also an educated guess based on observation of how the Guardian has been portrayed, but I'll get to that. First i want to clarify that I don't mean to say that souls are unrecognizable. I believe that it depends on who/what is doing the recognizing.
For example, I'm assuming that for sentient beings that can perceive souls well enough, identifying a soul is as easy as recognizing a face. This means that since the gods are sentient and would be able to easily recognize a soul, they wouldn't need something like an ID number to identify a unique or matching souls. On the other hand, maybe gods are so beyond us that we all look the same, so an identifier would be useful. What's more, an ID number might also make the mass storage of souls in some kind of afterlife databank more organized and easier to work with---like an indexing system used by a library.
So, that's recognizability for sentient beings. However, recognition for weak artificial intelligence---like what we've seen of the Guardian---is another matter. The statements I am making about how markers work is based on the observation that the Guardian---at least for the actions we've seen it do---does not seem to be able to distinguish between souls. On the contrary, it seems like it only responds to the presence of the marker. This inability to distinguish between souls is why the loop was able to accidentally include more than one Controller. It seems to me that the mark is all that is being looked at when determining who is allowed to loop and who is allowed to access the basic functions of the Sovereign Gate. Otherwise, why did the Sovereign Gate allow a second and third person, both of whom have different souls from the original Controller, to enter the loop? Because of this, if souls do have unique IDs, at the very least we know that the Sovereign Gate is not looking or is unable to look at these IDs to determine who loops and who can use the Gate.
I'm also not saying that the Sovereign Gate is totally unable to recognize souls or their IDs---I'm just saying that it isn't recognizing that information to perform the functions we've seen so far. Maybe when presented with the Keys, higher functions become available and some of those functions can recognize souls. However, the functions we have seen so far seem to operate merely on the presence or absence of a controller marker---probably because the process of attaching and checking for a marker is faster and simpler.
On that note, the SoulKill spell seems to place a "Do not copy" marker on souls.
u/HelperBot_ [+1] (2 days later)
Non-Mobile link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weak_AI
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u/throwawayIWGWPC [+1] (2 days later)
souls are also aren't so complex that they can't be understood at all either. otherwise soul scans wouldn't be possible and identifying foreign soul matter would also be impossible
Well, we can both agree that astoundingly complex things can be examined, recognized, and understood at least in part.
The body is very complex, but I can tell if someone is bleeding, is missing an eye, has a pulse, etc.
But my mind is doing the recognition. My mind is an incredibly complex machine with astoundingly powerful pattern recognition and simulation software, i.e. imagination, running on it.
So, Zorian might be able to recognize a mind, but that kind of capability is really hard to give to an object. It takes a lot of programming---programming that would allow the Sovereign Gate to recognize that two or more souls all have been incorrectly marked as Controllers. The Sovereign Gate doesn't seem to be able to figure that out, so I don't think it has same recognition software as a person.
u/GoXDS [+1] (2 days later)
we've already agreed that the Guardian doesn't do what it wasn't programmed to do even if a sentient person would be able to do very easily. so just because the Guardian refuses to acknowledge that there are in fact 2 Controllers (via soul check) in front of him doesn't mean he is incapable of doing so if programmed for it (the major question is if it's possible to program this rather than if the Guardian is programmed with this). just as you agreed that the Guardian can't necessarily be able to check that there are indeed 2 Markers present. the marker is definitely checkable but the Guardian simply wasn't programmed to check that (just defaults to its knowledge that there is only 1 and thus doesn't bother checking). thus, just because it hasn't shown to do so doesn't mean it can't do so.
if we're following the analogy that we can identify faces (even partially obscured) and we've been able to program AIs that can do the same (arguably better than us), and that soul recognition by sentient beings (including humans, not just gods) is comparably easy to us identifying faces, I've already argued that they can make something that can identify souls via AI as well. pretty sure the looping mechanism has way more than enough processing power for that
maybe the Guardian indeed does not have the programming to identify souls. that doesn't matter. I've been putting the onus of identification on the marker anyways since that's the thing that has shown the possibility of having soul identification built in (and the main question is, how difficult is it to identify souls rather than can the Guardian do so). in the case of the marker locking down a portion of the soul, that has a few issues. it's very susceptible to failing if that portion is ever dmged. so if a soul attack happened or if an experiment on self (enhancements rituals) fail badly, you just killed the loop. there's also the case of Zorian's copy of the marker. we can assume one of two methods this happened. the two souls mixed a bit before separating (think dissolved) or portions of their souls were spliced. for Zorian's marker not to reject him, he'd have to have a soul portion equivalent to the locked portion in Zach's. however, in the former case, that portion of Zach's soul would have to mix with Zorians and thus would have changed, thus should make the marker invalid. in the latter, Zorian would now have the locked soul portion and should be the only one looping. since this is the case, I'll assert that the marker is identifying the soul holistically
and sidenote: I have done coding before. mostly java
u/throwawayIWGWPC [+2] (a day later)
I love this idea. It would be a very elegant solution, especially because it'd be significantly cheaper than actually recreating the world atom-for-atom.
u/thrawnca [+4] Carbon-based biped (a day later)
it'd be significantly cheaper
In terms of mana, perhaps. But in terms of processing power? Modelling every subatomic interaction of a sphere with a radius of one light-month?
Also, the fact that its activation is tied to the planar alignment makes me think that it's real and spending mana, rather than a simulation.
u/throwawayIWGWPC [+4] (a day later)
It's unclear how the magic works, but advanced heuristics might ease the processing power difficulties of such a model.
To give an example, the US Air Force recently developed an AI that consistently out-class top pilots, even when the AI is handicapped. To accomplish this feat, it was unnecessary to for the computer to model neurons arranged as well-trained brain; only the emergent phenomena were needed: piloting ability, strategic planning, etc.
Maybe this advanced illusion uses heuristics to bypass modeling atomic and subatomic interactions perfectly.
I mean, the Sovereign Gate is already able to perform a planetary scan and recreate details and information that would not necessarily have be accessible to the Maker. Maybe this scan allows a high-fidelity illusion to be constructed.
u/thrawnca [+1] Carbon-based biped (a day later)
advanced heuristics
That might be enough for a computer to extrapolate what would happen to a Controller, but it wouldn't be enough to give a Controller a completely immersive experience indistinguishable from reality. You might be able to operate a simulator with heuristics, but first you have to build a simulator that models all the relevant physics. And in this case, that means modelling enough detail for things like alchemy, electricity and psychology to keep working normally.
u/throwawayIWGWPC [+1] (2 days later)
The degree to which the simulation is indistinguishable really depends on the strength of the simulation. I say this because whether our own universe is a simulation is a question being explored by a few of today's scientists.
Like you say, certain quirks would be expected to show up if a reality were actually a simulation, but in a high-end simulation, these quirks would mostly show up in extreme cases that are computationally prohibitive and/or where heuristics give results that are good enough. So, these scientists are investigating certain fringe phenomena such as gamma ray bursts, which are ultra-high energy events.
If the Sovereign Gate were engineered by gods, it could have been a high-end simulation --- had the Guardian not specifically ruled out that possibility.
u/sambelulek [+5] Ulquaan Ibasa Liquor Smuggler (2 hours later)
I agree it sounds fantastic, and I wonder at what cost. Remember that only Silverlake is ever suspected to master the spell. To put it into perspective, Xvim never recognize one, while Black Room strictly a hasting pocket.
u/thrawnca [+1] Carbon-based biped (2 days later)
storage and portable home
Storage should be fine, but I'm not so sure about living there. What impact will a dimensional boundary have on transmission of heat; would it act like a thermos? How easily can you circulate air through it? Is the exit portable, or anchored to a fixed point in the outer plane?
u/over_who [+59] Aleph you are going to die (34 minutes later)
This chapter was immensely satisfying. Finally seeing some progress on deep mysteries, finally having assurances of meeting Daimen. I am glad that the Silverlake thread might be meaningful, and that there are still challenges that aren't easily leapfrogged with the loops.
March 5th can't some soon enough.
u/MoralRelativity [+15] (57 minutes later)
Agreed. I found the final scene particularly satisfying. That's quite some leverage they've managed to apply to learning about the gates. Very, very smart work.
u/thrawnca [+16] Carbon-based biped (37 minutes later)
I thought that Zorian's idea of sending a simulacrum to Koth so he could use the Black Rooms was flawed. Sure enough.
If they can manage to release the primordial into the loop and keep it there during a reset, that's almost certainly the end of the thing (although, if there is a reliable and safe method of primordial disposal, why wasn't it used originally instead of imprisoning them?).
u/cathemeralman [+7] (47 minutes later)
That method of disposing primordials assumes that their pocket-dimensional prisons put them somewhere outside both the real world and the time-loop world, somehow connecting to both at the same time (i.e., the primordials and prisons aren't themselves duplicated in the time-loop world).
I came up with an idea similar to Zorian's a few chapters ago--using the dimensional break to move between the loop and the real world. I discarded the idea because it seemed unlikely that there's only one Panaxeth prison which is anchored in two separate worlds, but I guess nobody103 thinks it's plausible.
u/thrawnca [+11] Carbon-based biped (3 hours later)
I don't think that it's clear yet whether or not the primordial and its prison are duplicated by the loop.
Presumably other pocket dimension contents, like Silverlake's house, are cloned. Things would get pretty weird otherwise (eg entering and leaving the temporal acceleration). And there's no indication that her comings and goings are treated as a loop breach, so presumably they are considered to be part of the loop.
We can presume that the Maker knew lots about the primordials and their prisons. So it's possible that they have special rules. And if there are special rules to keep primordials contained, then that means primordials are a threat to even a pocket dimension. Which tends to support the idea that the Maker would not have the Gate create thousands of copies of them and then attempt to dispose of them each time; instead, it would just continue the strategy of keeping them contained, by destroying the pocket universe and thus the bridge when there is a danger of escape.
But it's only speculation.
u/Frommerman [+7] (7 hours later)
We can presume that the Maker knew lots about the Primordials and their prisons.
Actually, we can't presume that. The Maker clearly didn't even have a solid grounding in soul magic. We can tell this because the Sovereign Gate's UI has no idea how to deal with multiple Controllers, and seems to think that having multiple controllers is impossible. At the very least, the Maker didn't know about the soul fusing curse. Even though they were capable of creating a hereditary soul marker for controlling the gate, they didn't know that it would be possible to use mechanics in the loop to bug the system and didn't bother creating any contingencies for them.
This is why I think it's more likely that the Maker just made the gate force end the loop because they didn't know what else to do about that kind of disaster. They didn't know how to re-bind a Primordial, and since they were already creating and destroying a massive pocket dimension anyway, why not just push the ultimate panic button? It's the simplest solution when you don't know what else to do.
u/thrawnca [+19] Carbon-based biped (8 hours later)
Having a thorough knowledge of soul magic, and having a thorough grounding in robust defensive programming practices, are two different things.
u/Fredlage [+10] (23 hours later)
The Maker clearly didn't even have a solid grounding in soul magic
Seriously? Every soul mage who has taken a look at the soul marker was awed at how well crafted it was. The loop has mechanisms for detection of soul damage (to the point where wrenching it out of the controller's body is enough to trigger it) and it did protect Zach from damage by the soul meld. The addition of Zorian to the loop was a fluke that is most likely irreproducible, and the Guardian not understanding the presence of more than one controller just shows that the Maker was a little too confident in their knowledge of soul magic and was certain that there couldn't be two controllers.
u/Frommerman [+1] (a day later)
Sure, all of that is true. But their overconfidence means that they, at the very least, had no business creating an artifact of this power. The system has failed not once, but twice, in the same loop instance. Obviously when Zorian was permanently included, but also when Veyers managed to escape without ending the looping. If two such errors, both of which should have been impossible according to the Maker's understanding of magic, happened in the same loop instance, what does that say about the relative frequency of errors in the loop, especially when one considers that a fully charged loop should last hundreds of subjective years?
The thing which created the Gate was clearly far from omniscient, and made numerous errors in the process. This implies that they were mortal, in my mind. If they were a god, they weren't the kind of deity I'd be interested in worshipping.
u/throwawayIWGWPC [+7] (a day later)
Even expert programmers---even teams expert programmers with subteams dedicated to finding errors---make products with bugs.
The type of errors we're seeing definitely seem mortal to me, but certainly do not, in my eyes, disqualify the creator from being a world-class master in the relevant fields.
Mastery does not mean perfect. Mastery just means capable of incredible feats requiring incredible skill---and that description leaves plenty of room for oversight and error. The sovereign gate definitely qualifies.
u/Fredlage [+5] (a day later)
You also have to take into consideration the fact that this is an artifact that has existed for thousands of years. Like Zorian said, the mechanism of the loop was created following some assumptions that simply are true anymore. The gate hadn't been activated for several cycles, according to the Serpent, so it's possible the maker decided it shouldn't be used anymore because human magic had advanced to the point where they could breach it, but also didn't bother to remove or destroy the Gate. We don't know why the Gods went silent, maybe the majority of them decided it was time to leave mortals alone and overruled anyone who went "okay, let me just remove this incredibly powerful artifact that mortal magic might mess with in a few centuries". Thus the Maker would be unable to interfere when his old project was no longer up to modern standards of security. Just a wild theory of course.
u/thrawnca [+3] Carbon-based biped (a day later)
If they were a god, they weren't the kind of deity I'd be interested in worshipping
That does seem to describe the deities in this setting.
Don't forget also that the anti-mind-magic failsafe didn't protect Zach from unstructured mind magic.
u/melmonella [+1] Tremble, o ye mighty, for a new age is upon you (a day later)
Second error isn't really an error, now is it? It seems more like a failsafe in case system erroneously detects Controller as exiting the loop.
u/thrawnca [+2] Carbon-based biped (a day later)
Yeah, in the unexpected case where multiple Controllers actually occur, I think having the loop continue is probably a better course of action than collapsing it when the first one leaves. It's a less destructive failure mode.
u/cathemeralman [+2] (4 hours later)
These are very good points. I suppose if pocket dimensions weren't duplicated, Zorian and Zach could just exit the time loop via Silverlake's house. That would be far too convenient.
Since this is the case, I'm very unclear on what Zorian's logic is re:Primordial prisons. Perhaps he also thinks primordial prisons are somehow exceptional when it comes to pocket dimensions within the loop. Maybe the reason why the loop automatically terminates when the primordial is summoned is because the gods can't actually destroy a world with a primordial in it (since this would involve destroying the primordial, which they apparently can't do). Successfully letting a primordial into the copy world might stop the looping mechanism altogether.
u/space_fountain [+5] (5 hours later)
I think the problem is the Primordial's themselves. It sounds like they are at least similar in power to the entity that created the loop itself. The idea that you could make a copy of them seems really odd even with copying everything else.
u/Caliburn0 [+2] (15 hours later)
Compared with copying an entire planet, it shouldn't be that hard.
u/space_fountain [+3] (16 hours later)
Maybe? I forget exactly how the premedials were described, but it's worth noting that the Gods were not copied. Premedials are at least close.
u/Caliburn0 [+2] (23 hours later)
Well... the gods are in a other dimension. Depending on the power of the gods, it shouldn't be impossible to copy themselves, and I get the impression that Primordials are weaker.
u/thrawnca [+3] Carbon-based biped (12 hours later)
Perhaps he also thinks primordial prisons are somehow exceptional
They are, in some way: breaching one triggered a loop reset. So there's something different about those prisons. Apparently the Maker either didn't want the primordial to get into the loop, or didn't want anything from the loop to reach the prison. Or both. Either one would tend to suggest that the prison is unique, not copied.
u/throwawayIWGWPC [+4] (13 hours later)
A model that supports this is to think of each dimension as a bubble, which I'll give a letter to.
The real world is the bubble A. The loop is a separate bubble B, that connects to bubble A at one point..
Pocket dimensions are tiny bubbles attached to their main bubble. Non-loop pocket dimensions are A1, A2, etc. Loop pocket dimensions are B1, etc. These tiny bubbles only interface with one main dimension, so only one speed of time needs to be observed.
However, a primordial's dimension interfaces with both the non-loop and loop dimensions. Thus, when the primordial's dimension is accessed, the sovereign gate senses a new connection to the non-loop dimension and ends the loop to break that connection.
u/thrawnca [+3] Carbon-based biped (23 hours later)
Nice analogy, but are you modelling the prison as an A-bubble, or a B-bubble?
u/throwawayIWGWPC [+3] (a day later)
Er, I should have specified:
The prison would be an A-B bubble, as it intersects the temporal reference frames of both dimensions A and B.
Accessing any A-B-type dimensions would create a temporal conflict due to the time dilatation that would have to be reconciled between the normal and loop dimension.
However, this analogy may be incorrect if Zorian can successfully access the primordial's pocket dimension by wrapping it in a second pocket dimension:
The sovereign gate restarted when the primordial summoning occurred---it has a fail-safe. If that fail-safe is indeed to prevent conflicting time references, then a loop pocket dimension B1 with a time dilatation of B that wraps around a primordial A-B dimension with a time dilatation of A would not bypass the fail-safe.
Wow, I feel like that explanation is going to be confusing to read. Sorry :P
If time dilatation conflicts are somehow not an issue for the sovereign gate, however, then my guess is that wrapping a primordial A-B dimension in a pocket dimension should allow Zorian to tunnel into non-loop dimension relatively easily.
I say relatively easily because if Zorian learns how to wrap a primordial dimension in a secondary pocket dimension, then learns how to tunnel into the primordial dimension, then my guess is that tunneling into the non-loop dimension will already be a subset of what he learned.
u/thrawnca [+5] Carbon-based biped (a day later)
tunneling into the non-loop dimension will already be a subset of what he learned.
Yes and no. Remember that, regardless of your skills, pocket dimensions only connect to others at specific points.
It could well be the case that tunnelling through the primordial's prison back into the real world requires more skill than passing through the direct connection located at the Sovereign Gate. However, if it allows Zorian to bypass the Gate security system, it's still worthwhile.
u/throwawayIWGWPC [+1] (a day later)
True. It'll probably not be as simple as I imagined.
u/DerSaidin [+2] (23 hours later)
Iirc, the primordials are also surposed to be the source of Mana. You would need to connect the looping dimension to the primordial prisons to supply the population (and maybe the SG itself) with Mana.
u/cathemeralman [+7] (a day later)
They seem to be a source of mana.
From Chapter 59:
Finally, he walked over to the Hole and spent some time peering into its fathomless depths, idly wondering whether the primordial’s prison was placed here because of the Hole or if the Hole was the product of the prison being placed here.
There is definitely a strong connection between powerful mana wells and primordials, but it hasn't been confirmed that Panaxeth is producing the mana coming from the Hole.
The primary source of mana in the world (besides the mana automatically produced by people's souls) has never been confirmed either, though according to the Ikosian creation myth it is the "heart of the World Dragon, from whose body the entire world was fashioned."
u/TomSmash [+1] (8 days later)
I somewhat doubt that the Primordials are the source of mana, from what I understand there isn't anything particularly threatening about Panaxeth specifically. He's a primordial but he isn't the biggest or the baddest, just another primordial except with a fleshwarping theme.
Considering that the mana well by the mage academy is apparently the only rank 9 mana well in the world and that's a big deal, I would expect the primordial living there to be similarly powerful however there hasn't been anything to suggest this is the case
u/throwawayIWGWPC [+1] (a day later)
It may be the hypothesis that primordials generate mana, but it may not necessarily true
Also, I was under the impression that it was not the primordials but rather the World Dragon (or whatever its called) that hypothetically generates the world's mana
u/melmonella [+17] Tremble, o ye mighty, for a new age is upon you (an hour later)
So back from chapter 26:
Zach actually managed to blow his shiny armor to bits with some kind of black bolts and even knocked the thing's crown off its skull, but nothing ever made a mark on the bones.
Apparently it's possible to separate QI and his part of the Key. They should definitely try this in one of the restarts.
u/None [+13] (an hour later)
[deleted]
u/EliezerYudkowsky [+12] Godric Gryffindor (21 hours later)
Fighting QI is dangerous even for them. QI has soul magic.
u/melmonella [+1] Tremble, o ye mighty, for a new age is upon you (a day later)
He doesn't seem to resort to it much. It's probably more mana intensive than the rest of his arsenal.
u/EliezerYudkowsky [+1] Godric Gryffindor (2 days later)
"Doesn't seem to resort to it much, only got hit with it once" isn't exactly very conservative. I guess with the few loops they have left, they could play less conservatively, but still.
u/melmonella [+1] Tremble, o ye mighty, for a new age is upon you (3 days later)
They have to figure out a way to beat him anyways. I don't see a way to do that without fighting him at all.
u/thrawnca [+1] Carbon-based biped (3 days later)
They have to figure out a way to beat him
In the meantime, though, while they search for the other keys, they're developing useful skills.
For example, Zach is developing his soul defences, so next time, QI's "panic button" wave won't disable him.
Zorian is becoming accustomed to his simulacra, learning their abilities, limitations, and politics. Next time, when the battle starts, there'll be up to four of him dominating unshielded enemies to cause havoc. He could probably even send one ahead to the ritual platform.
They're still trying to reach Silverlake, who is likely to have some impressive stuff to teach them if they can actually earn her respect. Depending on what pocket dimensions can do, they may or may not be fantastic tools for ambushes and "procurement" jobs.
They'll fight QI again, no doubt, but it makes sense to me that they're first targeting the less dangerous keys.
u/thrawnca [+10] Carbon-based biped (2 hours later)
They have other things to do during the invasion, like raid the library. The initial assault already succeeded; they pinpointed the ritual location, identified the shifter children and many of the cult's inner circle, and learned the ritual's true goal. It might be worth visiting the ritual platform again directly, to get the remaining names, but until they have a reasonable strategy for obtaining the crown, it's just not a good risk-benefit tradeoff to challenge QI again.
u/throwawayIWGWPC [+3] (13 hours later)
Then again, each battle with QI means a post-battle briefing with Xvim and Alanic at the beginning of the next loop. Knowing how QI fights might mean that the battle can go more smoothly and transpire more safely. It's definitely worth doing.
u/thrawnca [+5] Carbon-based biped (a day later)
It's definitely worth doing
But the question remains, Is it worth doing first? Zach's combat magic may have peaked, but Zorian will get better and better as they keep working on seeking the other keys.
Who knows; maybe obtaining some of the pieces might even help them to unlock their Controller powers.
u/melmonella [+1] Tremble, o ye mighty, for a new age is upon you (a day later)
Hence why they should fight QI. His piece is the closest to them and they already know they can sorta get it.
u/thrawnca [+4] Carbon-based biped (a day later)
they already know they can sorta get it
How so?
They have never beaten him before. Even with an army of mages helping, the best they managed was to stall until he had other priorities to deal with. Sure, they might be able to do better next time - or they might accelerate his "let's kill Zorian first" idea.
Trying to trick him with the coin means making him think that they're harmless, which means they have to be largely defenceless - a big risk. How are they even going to set up a situation where he'll be present without going into killing mode?
u/thrawnca [+4] Carbon-based biped (an hour later)
it's possible to separate QI and his part of the Key
Yeah, but I'm not sure how helpful it would be. At the very least he'll know of its historical value, if not its magical importance, and he'll want it back. Especially if they show up, grab it, and run; that's a huge tip-off to him that the crown is very significant (important enough for very powerful and skilled mages to take the time and risk to challenge him, in the middle of the invasion, just to obtain it).
So they would probably end up having to kill him somehow anyway.
u/kaukamieli [+2] (9 hours later)
Well he is the biggest fish, if they couldn't win him, they could as well surrender. Makes sense they would find him asap. If they won, the invasion is kinda over.
u/Frommerman [+3] (7 hours later)
Forcing him back to his phylactery worked once. He isn't getting time traveller help now, so it would probably work again.
u/thrawnca [+5] Carbon-based biped (8 hours later)
Forcing him back to his phylactery worked once
Yes, but if you can do that, then you don't need to bother blasting his crown off first. Just take it from his corpse.
u/Frommerman [+5] (8 hours later)
Precisely. They already have an easy method to get the crown when they need it.
u/thrawnca [+3] Carbon-based biped (a day later)
an easy method
Er...not that easy, really. QI had his guard down and Zorian tricked him. In a normal combat situation, he'll have shields up, and the coin will fail.
u/throwawayIWGWPC [+2] (a day later)
I they should spend a couple restarts trying to recreate that situation.
I would expect doing so to be very difficult, as RR is gone, as are the aranea who were aggressively interfering with the invasion, which means it's impossible to retrace that loop the way it happened originally.
In fact, the entire pretext for Zorian using the coin on was entirely dependent on RR and the aranea. The reason QI and company only showed up in the dance hall in the first place was because Red Robe was searching for Zach so as to learn who the other time loopers were.
Unlike the lich and the vampire girl, who did their best to look dignified and imposing, Red Robe (which is how Zorian promptly named him in his head) walked carefully and scanned the shocked crowd with interest, his cowled head swinging left and right in search of something. Or someone, as it turned out: the moment his eyes locked onto Zach he immediately stopped and spoke.
u/thrawnca [+1] Carbon-based biped (a day later)
they should spend a couple restarts trying to recreate that situation. I would expect doing so to be very difficult
So would I.
I prefer the idea that was raised in the chapter 60 thread: engrave the spell formula on a bullet instead of a coin, and snipe him in the back before the fight starts.
u/throwawayIWGWPC [+1] (2 days later)
Agreed. But it may be unfeasible.
Firearms were notoriously tricky to enhance with magic. Like all ranged weapons, they had the problem that you could only enchant the device to be more accurate and durable, and if you wanted the projectile to have any sort of magical effect upon striking the target you had to enchant the projectile itself. Bullets were unfortunately very hard to enchant, being much smaller than arrows and crossbow bolts and usually made from some very magically unsuitable materials. You also couldn't touch the bullet to channel mana into it once it was already in the gun… though maybe if he installed some crystal mana channels into the gun via alteration…
u/thrawnca [+2] Carbon-based biped (2 days later)
Note that it says bullets are usually made from magically unsuitable materials. That doesn't preclude the possibility of a special custom bullet. Since ZZ aren't concerned with expense, ease of mass production, nor penetrating power, they don't need to use lead. Any material capable of withstanding the hammer-blow will do.
u/throwawayIWGWPC [+1] (2 days later)
Good point. And with the help of Alanic and Xvim, they could probably get help from the imperial magical forges in making these specialized bullets.
u/thrawnca [+2] Carbon-based biped (2 days later)
Um...getting government help just to craft some bullets seems unnecessary for someone who has built armies of telepathically-controlled combat golems carrying magical and chemical incendiaries, dispeller grenades, and all manner of other explosives.
All he needs is someone who can cast soul spells - which is something you would not want to advertise to the authorities.
u/melmonella [+1] Tremble, o ye mighty, for a new age is upon you (3 days later)
Hence why you use a cannonball.
u/throwawayIWGWPC [+1] (3 days later)
Subsonic ammunition is much harder to aim and easier to dodge due to increased travel speed, especially for a cannon ball. :(
u/thrawnca [+1] Carbon-based biped (4 days later)
much harder to aim
From your own quote, we see that guns can be enchanted for increased accuracy.
easier to dodge
If the gun is magically silenced, though (or magically propelled to begin with), and you shoot QI while his back is turned, you should be able to surprise him enough to stop him dodging. No doubt his mana sense is well trained, but not omniscient; when Zorian threw the coin, he didn't realise it was magical in time to avoid it. So I doubt he can dodge an unexpected bullet, even subsonic.
increased travel speed
I'm guessing you mean increased travel time?
especially for a cannon ball
Yeah, this seems sub-optimal. Cannonballs are meant to deliver heavy impacts to large, easily-hit targets. In this case, the target is highly agile and essentially immune to bludgeoning damage. We don't need a powerful impact, just contact.
All in all, I think that it's feasible to snipe QI. Both the gun and the bullet seem quite possible to construct, and if they can catch him with shields down, I don't think he'll be able to react fast enough. Consider the end of chapter 59, where Zorian spotted him just watching the battle; that would be an opening right there.
u/melmonella [+1] Tremble, o ye mighty, for a new age is upon you (4 days later)
We don't need a powerful impact, just contact.
Yes, but cannonball is larger than a bullet, and hence has way more area for spell formula. You can add some sort of guiding system to it too, whereas it would be simply too big for a bullet.
u/melmonella [+1] Tremble, o ye mighty, for a new age is upon you (4 days later)
Subsonic? Cannons are fully capable of going over the speed of sound, especially if the cannonball is small and only has to fire once.
u/thrawnca [+12] Carbon-based biped (2 hours later)
Zorian should take the Bakora Gate activation ritual to some experts he knows.
The aranea have more practical experience with opening the Gate, but I doubt that they're soul magic specialists. Being secretive and lacking hands, they'd have an even harder time making soul sight potions than humans do, if they even know how, and their smaller natural mana reserves would make enhancements less affordable. So I suspect that none of them have soul sight.
Kael and/or Alanic may be able to offer some valuable advice about why the Gate activation ritual is so hit-and-miss, and how to fix it.
u/None [+7] (4 hours later)
[deleted]
u/thrawnca [+15] Carbon-based biped (6 hours later)
that web would probably be skittish about letting other experts see it
Zorian doesn't need the web's cooperation. He watched them and then made a memory packet of the experience. He can demonstrate it to others at will, maybe even let them experience it themselves if they let him in.
not providing any huge competitive advantage over the other webs.
On the contrary; if they can quickly and reliably activate the Bakora gates with a single aranea, then they indeed have huge advantages over other webs, both military (logistics, communication) and economic (directly trading transportation services, or using it to efficiently trade other goods and services).
u/None [+8] (13 hours later)
[deleted]
u/thrawnca [+3] Carbon-based biped (23 hours later)
one minute vs two hours
It makes a big difference if, say, you're losing a fight and need to escape, or call in reinforcements. It makes a big difference to the total number of trips you can manage in a day. It would surely make a difference to the kind of courier fees you could charge.
And there's also the fact that it would be one spell for one aranea, instead of potentially magically exhausting 15 of them.
u/throwawayIWGWPC [+4] (13 hours later)
I'm not sure Zorian is able to directly, mind-to-mind convey memory information. However, the memory packet should allow him to accurately reproduce the ritual via illusions.
u/thrawnca [+3] Carbon-based biped (a day later)
directly, mind-to-mind convey memory information
He passes memory packets back and forth with his simulacra all the time. He worked out a while ago how to establish a two-way telepathic link with non-psychics (from practising with Tinami). He can alter people's senses and edit their memories. I'm pretty sure he's capable of transmitting an experience to a willing recipient.
u/throwawayIWGWPC [+2] (a day later)
His simulacra are all mind mages of significant ability.
He can convey speech and he can read minds.
He can delete memories and fudge senses.
These abilities don't mean he implant memories wholesale like a movie. Remember how long it took him to learn how to interpret the memory packet? If I recall correctly, it wasn't merely hard to read the memory packet because it was given to him by an aranea. There was also the difficulty of successfully opening a memory packet without damaging the information.
And mind you, this took a lot of training for someone who had already spent years learning mind magic and is a natural mind mage to begin with.
I may be totally wrong and maybe he can implant movie-esque memories into people's heads, but I feel that's stretching it. And I should also mention that he had to train his kind to be able to store high-fidelity memories in the first place---which is not skill that even Zach seems to share.
I doubt so-and-so ritual master will be able to do all that, or would be happy with Zorian blatantly implanting memory packets in their mind. Anyone he hires is essentially a stranger.
But I hope I'm wrong about it because it would be very convenient for him to simply go around hiring prominent ritual specialists, implanting all their minds with a perfect memory of the Silent Adepts ritual.
u/thrawnca [+3] Carbon-based biped (a day later)
Zorian had no difficulty understanding the memory packets that the matriarch implanted in the males, nor did he have trouble understanding the message she left inside him.
The reason he did all that training is because he thought he would have to interpret the whole packet himself - which, in hindsight, would never have worked, simply because her thoughts are beyond him. But when she wanted him to understand a packet, it was easy for him.
u/throwawayIWGWPC [+2] (a day later)
Rereading the section, you're right.
u/Xtraordinaire [+2] Team Glimglam (18 hours later)
Zorian doesn't need the web's cooperation.
If they believe about time travel they will be very likely to cooperate, as long as the experts are kept in the dark about the loop (and that aranea can check)
u/TomSmash [+1] (8 days later)
It might be entirely possible that the Bakora gate activation problem isn't a problem at all. I imagine that the gates aren't designed to be used by spiders, I imagine they were created by ancient (probably human) mages, it's be kind of funny if all it took was a human to attempt to contact the gate and it would work fine. Though I doubt one of Zorian's problems are going to disappear just like that
u/Vakuza [+12] (an hour later)
This chapter is awesome, can't wait to see what they find with regards to the gate.
Unrelated to this chapter, but I was wondering why Witches used things like enhancements if their cost is so high. It's possible the reason mind magic lowers Zorians mana reserves significantly is because enhancements don't inhibit the growth of the reserves. Since Zorian was young and had yet to grow it seemed like his reserves were below average, but if not for the mind magic ability it might have been closer to his brothers! That's maybe why he can cast expensive spells like the gate spell and keep simulacrums. It's so simple and obvious but I never thought of it like that until now...
u/thrawnca [+14] Carbon-based biped (an hour later)
enhancements don't inhibit the growth of the reserves
Yes, the author has confirmed that.
For example, Zorian is magnitude 8; let's say that his mind magic costs him 2 points, so he would normally be 10. In that case, he'll eventually grow to 38 = (4 * 10) - 2, not 32 = 4 * (10 - 2). Although his increased magic missile skill makes it infeasible to measure that.
u/Vakuza [+3] (2 hours later)
The real question is what enhancements does Zorian have, and how much they cost for him. I reckon he's got some sort of foresight ability, but it seldom shows for some reason. Maybe if his soul sight advances enough he'll understand it and whatever other secret abilities he might have.
u/thrawnca [+9] Carbon-based biped (2 hours later)
some sort of foresight ability
That's an inherent part of being Open: natural talent with divinations, occasional prophetic dreams.
u/notintractable [+3] (2 hours later)
has he displayed foresight?
u/Vakuza [+8] (3 hours later)
Just before Quatach-Ichl tried to bind their souls Zorian moved Zach out of the path of a flying projectile he couldn't see, acting on impulse from something.
Chapter 4 about 3/4 down, starts with "Zorian wasn't sure what tipped him off..."
u/thrawnca [+6] Carbon-based biped (3 hours later)
It could even have been an instinctive reaction to the presence of QI's powerful and dangerous mind - or emotions. We know that he was using a degree of empathy before he had any training.
u/None [+5] (4 hours later)
[deleted]
u/throwawayIWGWPC [+4] (13 hours later)
QI would have mind shielding, yes. But would he have been using Mind Blank and thus be invisibile to empathy? Not necessarily.
u/None [+1] (a day later)
[deleted]
u/throwawayIWGWPC [+2] (a day later)
you may be right, but I somehow feel that unless QI was under the effects of Mind Bank, seeing as he possess such a strong mind and will, an empath would have been able to sense his presence.
u/throwawayIWGWPC [+5] (a day later)
Also, considering QI has been around for a 1000 years, I would guess he is fairly conservative about using mind-damaging spells like Mind Blank.
u/thrawnca [+3] Carbon-based biped (a day later)
Hang on, here's another possibility: Zorian "just got a vague feeling of dread", according to chapter 4. Maybe that was from someone else in the vicinity (Akoja?) who saw QI and was terrified?
u/None [+1] (2 days later)
[deleted]
u/throwawayIWGWPC [+1] (2 days later)
From Ch 23:
[The basic shielding spells that mages like to use will pretty much ruin your ability to use empathy on them. Too much interference. Detecting them, on the other hand, becomes even easier. Any mind-affecting spells make a mind 'noisier' to a psychic, even defensive ones. Especially defensive ones, now that I think of it. Well, except for that one infamous spell called 'Mind Blank' that actually causes a mind to disconnect from the Great Web, making a person completely undetectable to mind sensing and utterly immune to mind-affecting magic. Pretty terrifying stuff, that.]
u/kaukamieli [+3] (10 hours later)
Is the cost like -2, or is it like -20% growth? Does the cost actually limit anything if you have time to grind like Zorian?
u/nobody103 [+13] (10 hours later)
-2
u/thrawnca [+3] Carbon-based biped (12 hours later)
Does the cost actually limit anything if you have time to grind like Zorian?
Yes, your reserves will eventually max out, as Zach's have done.
u/kaukamieli [+3] (20 hours later)
But unlike others, you will get it maxed and you will also get very efficient at casting stuff so I think it kinda evens itself out.
u/Cheese_Ninja [+2] (22 hours later)
Maxing reserves doesn't seem to be difficult, just a slow matter of casting magic frequently for about 10-20 years.
Depending on the permanent enhancement type, (ritual vs blood magic?) it might be passed on to their descendants, and too high a mana cost would make them stillborn/inconceivable. Inherited abilities are at minimum cost, and acquired ones have varied efficiency compared to their actual cost. I'm guessing an inherently 2 cost ability might end up needing anywhere from 2.5-6 from the reserves if it is an acquired ability, with the higher end being it done badly. Actually, maybe blood magic is minimum cost too, I can't remember for sure and can't remember where exactly nobody103 mentioned these things. The wordpress page's comments?
There's also a risk of permanent soul damage, again depending on the quality of the enhancement ritual.
But I agree, Zach, and to a far lesser extent, Zorian would benefit from enhancement rituals, but I kinda doubt it will go down that route too much. It would be interesting if Zach decided he needed 40 or so improvements to up their success rate upon leaving the loop.
u/thrawnca [+3] Carbon-based biped (a day later)
I kinda doubt it would go down that route too much
I, for one, will be very surprised if he doesn't copy Kael's soul sight at some point.
Enhancements that can be largely duplicated with regular spells probably aren't worthwhile for ZZ, but abilities that can't be properly developed without innate talent are a different matter.
u/thrawnca [+1] Carbon-based biped (2 days later)
maybe blood magic is minimum cost too
Not quite, but it comes much closer than a regular enhancement, and can make enhancements hereditary. Discussed the first time they used a black room, chapter 62 I think.
u/Xtraordinaire [+2] Team Glimglam (18 hours later)
I think he already did grow to ~40. His mind magic being a flat modifier (confirmed) is a good way to explain irregularities in his growth.
But what about Zach?
u/thrawnca [+1] Carbon-based biped (a day later)
he already did grow to ~40
Not really. He's only been in the loop for a few years, not nearly enough to max out his reserves. He hit 35 magic missiles a while back, but that was almost certainly because he's become more efficient. His reserves were probably between 2 and 3 times their original state, is my guess.
what about Zach?
Zach's mana reserves are not normal. Unresolved plot thread.
u/ryujinmaru [+1] (8 days later)
has there been any speculation that Zach being the original time loop inductee - got merged with his copy/loop self soul and as a result doubled his mana reserves?
u/thrawnca [+1] Carbon-based biped (9 days later)
has there been any speculation
Yes, but I find it unconvincing. The Guardian's statements on the subject are pretty clear, plus merging two souls almost always results in their destruction, plus there's no clear reason why that method would allow him to retain control as if he were magnitude 25.
"Because only the Controller has their real soul pulled into the time loop," the Guardian said. "Everyone else is a copy."
Seems pretty straightforward to me.
"So the Controller has their original soul drawn into the time loop when it is first made," Zorian said. "They aren't a copy, so there is no problem with them leaving." ...
"Yes," the Guardian agreed.
u/sambelulek [+1] Ulquaan Ibasa Liquor Smuggler (2 hours later)
Your assumption that Zorian thinks that his mana reserve quadrupled (or is it quintupled?) is flawed. Zorian thinks so because he can fire that much missile. That means, what he can perceive is his disposable mana, not his entire mana capacity. Moreover, mana reserve grows organically; you don't suddenly jump from magnitude 8 to 16. In one instance he said his reserve is 12 (or so).
u/thrawnca [+4] Carbon-based biped (3 hours later)
I wasn't referring to Zorian's own observations about the increasing number of magic missiles he can actually cast, except to note that precise measurements aren't feasible. His exact starting point, and the exact multiplier, aren't important to the point I was making: enhancements are a flat cost, not a percentage cost, so they take up a smaller fraction of your reserves as you grow.
u/lostatnet [+1] (2 days later)
Keep in mind that Zorian's efficiency with specific spells may also make it difficult to measure his mana reserve growth. Magic missile is his first & most used combat spell which he has mastered (made invisible) & can cast reflexively.
u/None [+1] (3 hours later)
[deleted]
u/thrawnca [+4] Carbon-based biped (a day later)
It was mentioned very early on that as a rule of thumb, mages reach 4 times their starting point. Starting point is referred to as their "magnitude", and is widely variable; Zorian's is 8, which is at the lower end of average, while a few mages exceed 20, but have significant difficulty with shaping as a result (pre-loop Zach, with control equivalent to magnitude 25, struggled at school). Taiven mentioned knowing someone who was magnitude 15, but became a skilled illusionist; she regarded this as a significant achievement for someone with magnitude that large.
u/Cheese_Ninja [+1] (3 hours later)
I hadn't noticed that comment before, Zorian's case just keeps getting better for himself. If he makes full use of the black rooms, Zorian should be able to achieve max reserves before they leave the loop. If he's really lucky, upon leaving the loop he might even be able to get the doubled capacity that Zach has.
With how low-cost mind magic abilities are, he might even be more dangerous than Zach in combat against non-Mind Blanked opponents. You can even argue that he already is in certain situations, like when there's easily controlled monsters brought in against him.
u/Fredlage [+21] (an hour later)
Well, pretty sure QI gate works via some poor sap's soul filling in as gate spirit. At least we know the simulacrum's wandering won't have been for naught, since they'll need to reach the other Bakora gates before using them.
u/thrawnca [+10] Carbon-based biped (46 minutes later)
Typos:
threading new ground/treading new ground
entire regimen/entire regiment
set lose/set loose
so much problems/so many problems
it was often far less solid/and it was often far less solid
both it did/but it did
in regards to grey hunter's/in regards to a grey hunter's
focusing on grey hunter's/focusing on the grey hunter's
was six-legged/was a six-legged
was giant elongated/was a giant elongated
carried in hands/carried in its hands
glasses containers/glass containers
a diplomatic tactics/a diplomatic tactic
than they've ever been allowed/than they'd ever been allowed
You've never saw/You've never seen
another gate using group operating around/another gate-using group operating
with contact request/with contact requests
from gate spirit/from the gate spirit
and entire continent/an entire continent
had to be better way/had to be a better way
really looking forwards/really looking forward
The troops manning the defenders/The troops manning the defences
ensure safety of gathered people/ensure the safety of the gathered people
u/Sgeo [+8] (an hour later)
Zorian thought about it for a few seconds. Or maybe just pretended to think about it – Zach had a flair for dramatics like that.
I assume that first Zorian should be Zach?
u/tokol [+1] The Greater Good (21 hours later)
For example, Zorian had just followed Zach through the dimensional passed he and his simulacrum had opened
dimensional passed -> dimensional gate
u/thrawnca [+5] Carbon-based biped (23 hours later)
Probably "dimensional passage", I'm guessing.
u/daydev [+11] (10 hours later)
Did anyone else get nostalgic Stargate flashbacks from the aranea's brute force/cargo cult activation of the gate?
u/thrawnca [+8] Carbon-based biped (12 hours later)
More so from the fact that they need to find the code for each Gate before they can connect to it, but yes, it did remind me of that.
u/cathemeralman [+7] (a day later)
Okay, I’ve had a day to mull over this chapter. Here are some thoughts:
Immortal Eleven Theory
…I heard there are people who gained great powers by binding the blood of primordials to themselves
All this talk about the ancient blood of primordials has got me thinking. If the blood of Panaxeth can be used to give people shapeshifting abilities, what sort of properties do the bloods of other primordials have? In the worldbuilding blog /u/nobody103 recently mentioned that the Immortal Eleven “are a group of eleven mages that created and drank a potion of eternal youth,” but he seemed reluctant to talk about them any further. I wonder if the basis for the Immortal Eleven’s “potion” was actually the blood of another primordial (besides Panaxeth). Maybe when Zach and Zorian get around to visiting the other elementals, they will find that they are not the first humans seeking such information.
Maybe, if the other elementals are unwilling to further cooperate with humans, they end up seeking out the Immortal Eleven for the location of another prison?
This is, of course, all highly speculative.
Primordial Prisons for Loop Escape
After some discussion with people here, I think it’s unlikely that the primordial prisons are duplicated in the copy world. They are instead anchored to both the real world and copy world simultaneously.
Some compelling evidence for this conclusion is that the gods (who presumably built the Sovereign Gate) seem incapable of destroying the primordials (which is why they’re imprisoned). This is likely why the time loop is designed to terminate when a primordial is summoned. Destroying the copy world with a primordial roaming in it requires destroying the primordial in particular, which the gods (and by extension, the Gate) simply can’t do. I think Zach and Zorian will need to be extra careful while investigating the prisons. I think tricking the Gate into allowing a primordial into the copy world could break the looping mechanism. This would be extra bad since if they’re killed in this scenario, it’s effectively game over for them.
Second Date with Akoja
I’m disappointed that /u/nobody103 didn’t talk about the followup date that Zorian agreed to so that he could “give her employment materials.” Everybody seems to have forgotten about it already...
u/throwawayIWGWPC [+5] (a day later)
It's underappreciated how nice some simple formatting makes everything.
I agree that the inability to kill the primordials may be the nail in the coffin---it's unlikely they and their pocket dimensions are created and destroyed every loop if killing them in the first place was impossible.
And I would very much like a follow-up on the dating life of Zorian's simulacra. I really love the character development chapters, although I believe the author is trying to balance the pacing, so it's always a hard call.
u/thrawnca [+5] Carbon-based biped (a day later)
seeking out the Immortal Eleven
I'm pretty sure that they're already seeking one. Potions master, unusually well preserved, prefers to stay out of the spotlight and has apparently mastered an extremely rare field of magic to do so (implying long experience and vast skill)...
u/cathemeralman [+2] (a day later)
Ooh, this is an interesting idea.
The only mention of the Immortal Eleven in the story proper (so far as I can tell), is Taiven discussing Oganj in Chapter 16:
And I heard he killed two of the Immortal Eleven too.
This made me think that the Immortal Eleven were a well-known group, with public identities. This comment also directly followed Kael's anecdote of Oganj annihilating an army sent to subjugate him, which made me think that the two who died were attached to said army, and that the Immortal Eleven had government ties. This could be me reading too much into a passing comment though. It is more than possible that not all members of the Immortal Eleven revealed themselves to the public, or that Silverlake has multiple identities (likely).
I guess we'll just have to wait and see, presuming the story ends up incorporating them at all.
u/lostatnet [+1] (2 days later)
Given the stigma attached to witches in the setting, I doubt that one of the famed/feared Immortal Eleven is a witch. Or rather, that one of them is secretly a witch? It could be that Silverlake has multiple identities, as you mentioned.
u/thrawnca [+3] Carbon-based biped (2 days later)
Knowing what we do about Silverlake, I reckon that if she wanted to make herself a potion of endless youth, and had the skills, then she'd do it, and if anyone didn't like it, she'd tell them to go ***.
u/notintractable [+7] (2 hours later)
Wonder how they convinced all those scientists and professionals to analyze the gate while the city was being attacked, though? I can't imagine they explained the time loop to all of them, right?
u/thrawnca [+13] Carbon-based biped (2 hours later)
I can't imagine they explained the time loop to all of them
Xvim's instructions make it clear that they didn't. However, we've already seen that Alanic has significant influence in the military, so the soldiers aren't an issue. Presumably the specialists were simply hired to do a job and not to ask questions, with most of the payment being scheduled for after the fact :).
u/monkyyy0 [+2] (2 hours later)
They may have just left out that detail.
u/thrawnca [+7] Carbon-based biped (a day later)
You know, the loop is a perfect opportunity for the Silent Doorway Adepts to test whether or not drilling a new mana well would disrupt their gate...
u/spanj [+2] (a day later)
That's only if the Silent Doorway Adepts truly believe that Z&Z are looping. They still seem skeptical based on the conversation with Glittering River of Stars, and it's not rational from their viewpoint to ruin their source of economic strength based on conjecture.
It will be a whole different story once they are fully convinced.
u/thrawnca [+2] Carbon-based biped (a day later)
only if the Silent Doorway Adepts truly believe
Yeah. Handing over a Miasina gate code should do wonders for their credibility.
u/throwawayIWGWPC [+1] (a day later)
That's a brilliant idea.
u/WriterBen01 [+8] (10 hours later)
So, the Bakura gates are simpler than thought. They basically just consist of spellcasters making a gate together like Zorian and his copy did to Koth. The spellcasters are probably artificial and can contact each other in some way, probably similar to the telepathic relays (bigger range?).
They work like phones and you need a phone number to contact another gate. The Aranae know the number, but not enough about how the machine works, so they are trying to input a phone number while wearing a boxing glove. Very hard to do, but it will succeed if you try often enough.
It surprises me that they need so much crystalised mana to open the gate. Wouldn't ancient mages want the gates to be built somewhere they could cheaply open them?
u/TimTravel [+4] (11 hours later)
If they're really artificial spellcasters then that means it's possible to create a soul. I suppose it's not surprising, since normal biological reproduction does it, but hopefully the souls don't mind being trapped in a Bakora gate forever.
Maybe it's not a "proper" soul, so it requires an external mana source to cast and maintain its gate spell.
u/kaukamieli [+3] (20 hours later)
If gods can make people, then ofc it's possible to create a soul. But it doesn't have to be a proper, perfect soul, it can be very bare bones, more akin to an AI they can teach to communicate and stuff, like for the Sovereign gate. The souls would not care any more than your butter passing robot... wait...
u/throwawayIWGWPC [+1] (a day later)
^()
I am not programmed for friendship!
u/thrawnca [+4] Carbon-based biped (12 hours later)
It's kind of a shame that their grey hunter farming is being backgrounded. I didn't think that they really had it down to routine yet. But I have hope that we'll soon see them try a new scheme to actually bring it down with the eggs intact :). After all, Silverlake has now become a higher priority.
u/kaukamieli [+3] (20 hours later)
Well, after using some of those potions they know better what it sees and how to kill it better.
u/throwawayIWGWPC [+2] (a day later)
Yeah. I'm currently wondering if Zorian can make a spell that stills the air within a certain radius and have everyone flying around or something to rob the grey hunter of a primary sense.
I'm very curious how they take it down!
u/thrawnca [+3] Carbon-based biped (a day later)
I still think they could get a long way by disrupting its senses with flash-bangs so that it can't dodge everything so easily. There are plenty of spells, or grenades, that could bring it down if it weren't going all Matrix on them.
u/throwawayIWGWPC [+1] (a day later)
Flash-bangs might be an additional thing to try, however this spider is extremely resilient.
Nuking an enemy relies on the enemy being susceptible to the nuke. Buffing oneself to fly so as to not vibrate the ground or dampening air flow to limit air current sensitivity don't target the enemy and so do not rely on the enemy's susceptibility to damage.
Seeing as how they're trying to take the spider egg intact, nullifying tremor sense and air current sense may provide a second or so of surprise that could cinch the fight for them
u/thrawnca [+4] Carbon-based biped (a day later)
My thinking is that very acute senses, like tremorsense, would logically be delicate. So a 170dB shockwave will temporarily throw them into disarray, giving you the chance to land a hit with something more permanent.
u/throwawayIWGWPC [+1] (a day later)
they should try it. Would the shock wave disrupt the egg?
u/thrawnca [+2] Carbon-based biped (a day later)
Would the shock wave disrupt the egg?
It shouldn't. Whatever they ultimately use to kill the spider would likely do more damage than the shockwave itself. A typical stun grenade just gives you a few seconds of disorientation, with muddled hearing and vision.
u/thrawnca [+3] Carbon-based biped (a day later)
have everyone flying around or something
You do know that it senses air currents and mana, right? To the point where it can dodge homing magic missiles, and even managed to dodge a magical rope while in midair?
u/throwawayIWGWPC [+1] (a day later)
Well, they're mages, so regardless of the strategy, it's likely to involve them casting spells, so susceptibility to the spider's magic sense is a given.
The question is, can they render some of the other special senses of the spider ineffective? If so, that might provide a useful advantage; I'd rather fight a partially blind grey hunter than one in full possession of its senses.
So, flight nullifies tremor sense and an overcharged sound dampening spell dulls hearing and the spider's air current sense. They're pre-battle buffs. If they make it harder for the spider to react to the situation (I grant you, that's an important "if"), then why not?
u/spanj [+3] (a day later)
The problem I see here is that due to the grey hunter's superb magic sense it might be possible for the grey hunter to deem the area as a trap and thus remove itself from the area. Presumably the area under effect would be perfused with mana.
So in order to confuse it's physical senses by using magic you'd either have to have such a large area of effect that the grey hunter can't possibly escape in time or you'd have to overload its magic sense. Maybe the latter can be achieved by evaporating tons of crystallized mana.
So flash bangs in the form of extreme ambient mana perfusion, ground tremors, and turbulent air.
I think one thing Z&Z are overlooking is simple biology. Spiders are cold blooded and become less active in the cold. Even warm blooded animals don't function as well in the cold. Simply cast a large area of effect spell to lower the temperature such that the eggs are still intact but that biological reactions take longer to propagate. Think stiffer muscles, slower propagation of neuronal signals, etc.
u/thrawnca [+1] Carbon-based biped (a day later)
Presumably the area under effect would be perfused with mana.
Agreed, both the air sense and mana sense would be able to detect a dead zone.
And holding a large volume of air motionless seems to me like it would require quite a lot of energy. Air is about 1.2kg per cubic meter, so for a cylinder with 50m radius and 5m height (which is probably too small), you'd be holding nearly 50 tons of air. Against whatever internal and external pressures are acting on it. Sounds infeasible.
Simply cast a large area of effect spell to lower the temperature
Freezing spells have indeed played an important role in the spider's defeat before. I suspect, however, that it's not as easy as that. Just lowering the overall temperature might slightly slow it down, but I don't know that it will make much difference while the spider is on the warpath. And directly targeting it is insanely hard, because Matrix-style dodging plus high magic resistance. The previous occasion that we know about, the spider was hit with a freezing spell after going berserk, meaning that it didn't try to dodge - but that happened because they already incinerated the eggs.
u/throwawayIWGWPC [+1] (2 days later)
So flash bangs in the form of extreme ambient mana perfusion, ground tremors, and turbulent air.
Spiders are cold blooded and become less active in the cold.
Yes, it'd be cool to see the GH go nuts in slow motion.
u/OchreOgre_AugerAugur [+3] (18 hours later)
Are they actually contacting a spirit of they gate that is completely undetectable when not in use or are they creating a temporary one each time they perform the ritual? Maybe the gates are inert because the network's central control system went offline for some reason, and they are just temporarily animating their gate and the destination node.
Should the gate really be somewhere without sufficient ambient mana to power it? Perhaps there was once a large well nearby, but it has been diverted to somewhere else.
u/kaukamieli [+1] (20 hours later)
Pretty sure the spell to create communicating "spirits" would need harder spells than something you can just spam around. You need to design spells with purpose and even simple things need complicated spell formulas.
Looks obvious they are just spamming it with passwords, but they don't quite know the protocol.
u/lostatnet [+1] (2 days later)
I've always suspected Daimen found something related to the Bakora Gates in Koth... Like maybe he found a "switch" that could reactivate them. But the new chapter contradicted my theory. Oh well.
u/thrawnca [+6] Carbon-based biped (8 hours later)
If "elder" refers to an elemental's age, not just its capabilities, then it seems likely that Stonechild might know something about the Sovereign Gate, like the Ghost Serpent did?
u/None [+4] (8 hours later)
Don't think that this elder is as much experienced as that ghost serpent one tho.
u/thrawnca [+1] Carbon-based biped (2 days later)
Elementals are supposed to be among the oldest known spirits.
u/kaukamieli [+1] (20 hours later)
Well, it refers to age, but there was cultural misunderstanding and... Stonechild.
u/TomSmash [+1] (8 days later)
They would have to be old as hell, IIRC ghost serpent said that the gate has been dormant for the past several cycles, each cycle is IIRC a planetary alignment which is every 400 years. So ghost serpent is probably older than say 2000 years old. I don't think we know enough about elementals to know if that's even possible. But hey, if ghost serpent can do it than maybe the elder stone guy could
u/thrawnca [+1] Carbon-based biped (8 days later)
Well, to quote the chapter, "Elementals were some of the most ancient spirits known to man". How old are rocks, anyway?
u/Areign [+5] (a day later)
I wish that someone in the world would react to seeing me like i react to seeing a new MoL chapter.
u/throwawayIWGWPC [+6] (a day later)
that's what dogs are for
. . . and sometimes cats
u/None [+2] (8 hours later)
I was suspecting at first that Zorian's simulcrum copies would be used for that ritual to open the gates but seeing the process such cumbersome, they may as well search for better methods.
u/None [+2] (19 hours later)
I quit reading 30 chapters ago, just so I could read this all at once when it was finished. It's getting harder and harder not to catch up. Siiiigh.
u/thrawnca [+9] Carbon-based biped (23 hours later)
Well, I salute your fortitude. My own approach is to just re-read it, and read the Reddit threads about it, and the DarkLordPotter thread, and SpaceBattles, and the Patreon updates, and comment on the world-building blog posts...
u/throwawayIWGWPC [+1] (a day later)
You and me both. /twitch
u/Agasthenes [+1] (a day later)
What do you read on space battles? Kinda hard to find good stories in a classic forum layout for me
u/Agasthenes [+1] (a day later)
What do you read on space battles? Kinda hard to find good stories in a classic forum layout for me
u/thrawnca [+1] Carbon-based biped (a day later)
https://forums.spacebattles.com/threads/mother-of-learning-discussion-thread.349206/
u/throwawayIWGWPC [+1] (a day later)
I think he means he reads the MoL discussion on SpaceBattles
u/Agasthenes [+1] (a day later)
Ah thanks that makes sense
u/throwawayIWGWPC [+2] (a day later)
Hi there, /u/nobody103! <3
Did Zach ever figure out the flawless magic missile variants? Did Zorian help him?
u/nobody103 [+7] (a day later)
No and no. Zach still wants to figure it out himself (though he kind of put that on a back burner by now) and Zorian has no reason to push. Zach isn't fond of using magic missile in combat anyway - too wimpy for his tastes.
u/throwawayIWGWPC [+2] (2 days later)
Zorian: 1
Zach: 0
u/throwawayIWGWPC [+2] (2 days later)
Roses are red, grey hunters are op, I think I'm in love with Xvim, Zachorian OTP.
u/None [+1] (a day later)
[deleted]
u/thrawnca [+2] Carbon-based biped (a day later)
it might provide a link for Z to "recall" the other Z to him
I'm not going to completely rule this out, but I find the idea of cross-dimensional recall...implausible, even with a soul bond.
u/throwawayIWGWPC [+1] (2 days later)
If a gateway were opened that linked the loop dimension and the real dimension, then maybe it'd work? But I would not expect recalling directly across dimensions to work.
Who knows, though! To be fair, the recall ability of bonded souls must require some form of dimensionalism if it's distance agnostic, and it's probably relatively mana efficient due to its specificity of targets. Even if the concept cannot be directly utilized by Zorian to punch through to the real dimension, maybe it can still indirectly be useful seeing as real Zorian and loop Zorian have very similar souls.
u/thrawnca [+1] Carbon-based biped (2 days later)
must require some form of dimensionalism if it's distance agnostic
I don't think that there's any indication in the story that that is the case. Recalling one's familiar is cheaper, but there's nothing said about it working over any distance.
u/throwawayIWGWPC [+1] (2 days later)
I should have been more clear. If the recall ability is a specialized form of gate, then it would be distance agnostic.
From Ch 64:
The gate spell, on the other hand, was largely limited by its rather miserable range… unless there were people on both ends of the gate working in tandem to stabilize it. If there were people casting the spell on both ends of the gate, then it also didn't have a known range limit.
(I have a google spreadsheet that allows easy searching and native reading of the entirety of MoL. Maybe I should share it with everyone.)
u/thrawnca [+1] Carbon-based biped (2 days later)
...I don't remember reading anything that would make me think recall is like a gate. Gate is an incredibly difficult spell, but even students like Briam can cast recall.
u/lostatnet [+1] (2 days later)
Great story! Can't wait for the next part!
u/thrawnca [+1] Carbon-based biped (2 days later)
I just had a thought related to chapter 55: what if they can get the Guardian to help Zorian find a way to escape without harming the original?
I know that Zorian was worried the Guardian would try to stop him looping or something. But remember, the Guardian is supposed to avoid killing diverged copies. It gets to turn a blind eye when the Controller chooses to include someone, but in this case, Zorian diverged because of the Guardian's own mistake (pulling him in with a damaged copy of the marker), so arguably it has a duty of care. It won't want to give him the original's body, fine, but it ought to cooperate with some other mechanism for getting him to the real world.
u/GoXDS [+0] (3 days later)
that mostly assumes the Guardian is able to process such a thing, which is doubtful. getting it to even understand would be difficult. what I'd imagine would happen is Guardian attempts to put loop!Zorian's soul into real!Zorian's body. finds a soul there. ends attempt saying there's already a soul in destination. it probably wouldn't even find that strange
u/thrawnca [+1] Carbon-based biped (6 days later)
Another note related to a different chapter: I think we can safely ignore the mystery girl who hung out with Zach and Neolu. Zorian checked up on her in chapter 6 and found her to be "nothing special" without Zach.
u/None [+1] (9 days later)
Hi u/nobody103
Can Lich have simulacrum?
Does simulacrum wear original clothes or its its just like their body?
Does Lich's simulacrum have a crown? Will it give false positive alarm to Zorian?
u/nobody103 [+2] (9 days later)
Yes. The simulacrum is made out of ectoplasm, and will have clothes identical to the ones original wore at the time of its creation, made out of same stuff. They cannot be taken off, though the simulacrum can don additional stuff on top of them. The items 'copied' by the spell are really only mimicked - they are cosmetic only, and do not possess any magic or inner workings that the originals had. Simulacrum guns and grenades will not fire, and magic items will no longer have their supernatural traits. So no, it would not give any false alarms to Zorian.
u/thrawnca [+1] Carbon-based biped (9 days later)
I'm not the author, but he has confirmed on his blog that yes, a lich could make a simulacrum - or, for that matter, a fully- functional second body. However, it would be very dangerous to do so, because the copy would have all of the necromantic skills and self-preservation instincts of the original, so it could and quite possibly would try to take over.
Zorian's simulacrum was homogenous despite giving the appearance of humanity. I'm guessing clothes are all part of the illusion. Although QI doesn't wear them anyway, just armor.
And I doubt that a homogenous ectoplasm construct could fool the marker into thinking it's a magical artifact.
u/thrawnca [+1] Carbon-based biped (9 days later)
Chapter 54 thought:
The fact that collecting the 5 key pieces will un-bar the Gate seems odd. If the number one priority is to keep the loop contents from spilling out, and that's why the Gate was barred to begin with, why put in a back door that a Controller can easily bypass?
However, it makes more sense to me if we assume that this was never meant as a failsafe emergency exit at all. The loop was supposed to collapse when the Controller left. I think that what's actually happening is, the Keyholder is supposed to un-bar the Gate for the next loop in 400 years' time. And Zorian's question was simply, "How can we un-bar the Gate?"
If the Guardian had been sapient, it would have told ZZ, "You can't leave." But since it's not sapient, and since the fact that the Keyholder prepares for loop initiation is not restricted knowledge, the Guardian simply answered their question, inadvertently giving them a way to bypass its cardinal rule.