28 KiB
[HF][RT] Bitter - Chapter 1
-
Author: u/mooderino The Good Student*
-
URL: https://www.reddit.com/r/rational/comments/5wbovz/hfrt_bitter_chapter_1/
-
Score: 20
-
Created: 2017-02-26T18:58:23
Post:
#####Author: mooderino
####Chapter One
This is a daily serial with a standard VRMMORPG premise, at least in its initial set up, but the ones I've read tend to use VR as an excuse to get into a fantasy world and then don't really play up the game aspect other than pulling up a status screen every now and then. To me, MMOs are about more than the fantasy setting.
Bugs, exploits, devs who don't understand their own game, OP classes, over the top nerfs, p2w, ridiculous RNG, cash shop fiasco, lockboxes, raging players, broken mechanics, limited bag space, tedious grinding and how to avoid it. And above all that, a company trying to squeeze money out if its playerbase while pretending they're just in the business of having fun.
Of course, then there are the orcs and elves, and the occasional dragon.
This story is about finding yourself in a completely immersive fantasy game, but it's also about what a game like that would really be like.
(BTW In case anyone here reads my other story, HTADDB is on a one week hiatus. Back on Monday 6th March)
Synopsis
The story of a girl who finds her life is not what she wanted. So she gets another one.
Genre: Fantasy, VRMMORPG, Slice of Life, Humour, Adventure, LitRPG
More Links
####Chapters released daily, 7 days a week. Chapters are very short (between 500-1000 words on average). There are already 28 chapters out so far.
Comments:
u/GaBeRockKing [+8] Horizon Breach: http://archiveofourown.org/works/6785857 (5 hours later)
I've mentioned this before, but I don't think most gamer stories count as "rational." In theory, they're perfectly rational-- RPGs tend to be fairly perfect-information, and from an in-universe perspective the avenues available to a character could be predicted from just looking at their skill tree. But out-of-universe, authors very rarely outline the in-fiction game mechanics to such a degree so that the reader can't meaningfully predict how the skills the characters use will work, or what new skills the character will get.
So before I even start getting into reading this story, I'm going to lay out the criterion I'll use to judge whether this story fits in this subreddit.
Either
a.) the rules of the game are clearly deliniated well enough that a copy could be fairly well recreated in real life
or, in what I call the "Log Horizon" approach,
b.) The main literary conflict is actually some meta-conflict about the game, and resolved through some non-game action, such as through diplomacy or trickery.
Expect me back in a few
minuteshours after I've made my judgement.Obviously I don't have any actual power over you or your writing, but hopefully my feedback should be interesting and useful.
u/mooderino [+3] The Good Student (5 hours later)
I don't particularly approach my work with a rationalist mind set, but my other story got some attention here (and that was more realist than rational) so I thought this one might be of interest too.
Having said that, I would be interested to know what people think of it from a rationalist perspective, although it's early days and I'm not sure enough has happened to be able to get a proper view of the story (or maybe there has).
u/GaBeRockKing [+6] Horizon Breach: http://archiveofourown.org/works/6785857 (8 hours later)
I don't particularly approach my work with a rationalist mind set, but my other story got some attention here (and that was more realist than rational) so I thought this one might be of interest too.
Slight clarification to be made: "rational" and "rationalist" are slightly different, in that "rationalist" fiction is rational fiction intended to teach readers to act rationally. (You probably already knew this, I'm just making sure.)
As of the first real fight scene (mugger), I'm kind of iffy on whether the story qualifies for [RT] though. You did explain what her spells did beforehand, but even though spells are theoretically balanced by "failure rate" I get the gut feeling that they'll only fail when it's narratively convenient, as opposed to something like rolling dice to see whether they work, then having to adapt your writing on the fly. Thus, the reader can't reasonably predict what your character's available options are, because they're dependent on a hidden variable determined by author fiat.
That being said, while I don't think this is rational, as the focus seems to be somewhat social-sci-fi-y then it's probably a rational-adjacent, and therefore deserves to be on this subreddit. Anyways, it looks like I'll be following it, so thanks for posting!
u/Rouninscholar [+2] (3 days later)
I can think of very few stories that base all random chance on dice rolls. If a character in another book gets into a fight or has to shoot something, their success or failure is generally based on narrative needs. You shouldn't be able to reasonably predict whole fights. you should be able to say X is a good option, if that works then Y if not I guess I would have to try Z.
u/-main [+1] (10 days later)
I can think of a lot of stories like that: the entire genre of 'quests'. Marked for Death is the one I see here often. And I have seen awesome things happen when authors have to write outcomes consistent with the rolls.
u/Rouninscholar [+1] (10 days later)
yes, but quests work that way because of the multiplayer aspect. How many stories do you know that an author writes like that? Next take out ones based directly on DnD. Would you have read HPMOR if harry had lost during the SPE?
u/-main [+2] (10 days later)
I believe Wildbow rolled dice in Worm, at one point, and had a backup protagonist in mind in case Taylor died. It's the only example I can think of, though.
I'd like to see more authors doing that kind of thing, and I support the idea that if you're going to have a failure rate for protagonist skills, you should roll for it.
u/VanPeer [+2] The shard made me do it (6 hours later)
Glad to see you have started a new story! Is your other story complete? I need to catch up on it.
FYI, clicking the above link brings up a consent form. I was able to simply click 'Decline' and view the story, but it might be off-putting to some.
u/mooderino [+1] The Good Student (12 hours later)
No, I'm in the middle of Book 6 (200 chapters written so far). Sorry about the form, the site seems yo be doing a survey of some kind.
u/VanPeer [+1] The shard made me do it (15 hours later)
I like the story so far. I feel sorry for the MC. Not sure if I like her as much as I liked Colin from your other story, though.
u/mooderino [+2] The Good Student (16 hours later)
A lot of people didn't like Colin to start with. Hopefully as she develops over the course of the story she will become relatable, or at least have interesting adventures.
u/VanPeer [+3] The shard made me do it (23 hours later)
I absolutely loved Colin and Jenny from the start. As a non-white male I'm continually startled to see comments describing Colin as ' racist" when his actions show quite the opposite. And even more startled to see the occasional hate for Jenny when she's the sweetest character with her heart in the right place.
u/Prezombie [+7] (7 hours later)
That synopsis is, well, crap. The initial coverage of "I don't like most MMO stories because they're not written by those who actually play MMOs" is far more engaging.
I'd say to edit down that "list of things that gamers are actually familiar with but never show up in stories." and have that be the synopsis.
"MMOs are about more than the fantasy setting. Exploits, unbalanced classes, and gold farmers breaking the intended economy. Nerfs and patches breaking more than they fix annoying the community. Raging players, tiny inventory space, and tedious grinding for that rare epic loot make one wonder if it's worth playing. And atop all that is a company trying to squeeze as much profit as they can get away with while pretending they're just in the business of having fun. "
u/Alphanos [+7] The Bright Powers (15 hours later)
I liked the sound of the description, so I tried to give it a fair shot. But a dozen chapters in, nothing of the description had really showed up. Instead the main character mostly spends extensive amounts of time thinking and saying rude and nasty things to/about everyone, including herself.
At this point even if the story premise does start to play a more prominent role, her head is such an unpleasant place that I don't want to be in it any more. Sorry =/.
u/mooderino [+2] The Good Student (15 hours later)
That's okay, personal taste doesn't require an apology. Thanks for giving it a shot.
u/MaxMahem [+7] (a day later)
So I've gotten about a dozen chapters in, some feedback.
Your premise interests me, I can dig the idea of a VRMMORPG story that deals with some of the more 'realistic' side of MMORPG reality.
However I think you have got to, got to, got to land some sort of "hook" within your first dozen pages or so. Something that grabs the reader and gives them a reason to keep reading your story. Usually something that engages with the theme of your story. Often I've seen it done in this genre either with a 'flash forward' to the character at a later state in development, or a perspective shift to a different character. This way you can give the reader some idea where you are heading, something to look forward to, while still doing the 'slow build' of your main character.
So I don't really feel you've done that with this. Of the first dozen chapters, only one or two really deal with the setting material. The chapter with the dragon and the tutorial is interesting. And its the first chapter to play up on the premise you laid out in the synopsis. I want to emphasis I found that chapter really enjoyable. But it comes pretty far in, at which point I was already considering putting the book down. And from there we dive back into the real world stuff which I was not finding terribly engaging.
Sadly it is surrounded by all this real world interlude. Now to a degree this would be acceptable, after all the 'real world' is also part of the "MMO world" and could conceivably be in scope. But the problem here is the amount of it. We are basically 10:1 real world drama to VR world drama. It feels like a bit of a bait and switch. Its kind of about managing expectations here.
And lastly the elephant in the room. Britta. She's a bit of a, ahem 'B' isn't she? I mean I suppose that's to be expected in a story called 'Bitter.' She's not a very attractive character's head to run around inside of. She doesn't really build a lot of empathy for me. Nor does the story at this point really show a lot of arc for character growth (yet).
So I guess you might ask yourself, "Why would the reader want to read this book?" Your synopsis tells me I would want to read this book if I was interested in seeing a "realistic" depiction of a VRMMORPG game. But the story itself tells me I should read it if I want to read the story about Britta the bitter 16 year old girl who sometimes plays a VRMMORPG.
And I'm sure that story appeals to someone. But I don't think its me.
But hey, you don't have to write for me. Good luck!
u/mooderino [+1] The Good Student (a day later)
Hey Max,
First of all, thanks very much for the feedback and reading as much as you did. You make valid points all of which bear considering. I would agree a hook of some kind helps and just hoping readers will hang in there until things get interesting is not going to work out most of the time.
That said, in this story I'm trying a bunch of things. First, it's very short chapters released daily. Seven chapters a week is pretty brutal and the pace of the story is quite slow. I think it takes a while to get used to that. Some readers wait until the end of the week to read, some can't hack it and quit.
I'm also writing another story (The Good Student) which is long chapters (3000-4000 words) released weekly. I'm using this as a way to compare what readers respond best to.
Bitter is also very much a slice of life story. Even in game (and the story is actually predominantly in the VR world, just not at the start) there are a lot of non-action almost mundane scenes. Which may seem counter to what you would want in an adventure-type story, but it is a fairly popular genre that some readers like. It suits a web novel as small chunks of life presented in an interesting/amusing way can be quite addictive. I'm not saying this story has achieved that, but that's another thing I'm experimenting with.
Britta herself is a difficult character to like, but most of my characters have an element of that, and hooking a reader against their better judgement and getting them to relate to a less than perfect MC is far more rewarding for me as a writer than creating a Mary Sue who is a wonderful person being unfairly mistreated for some unknown reason.
Britta is going to change and grow, hopefully becoming someone people want to root for.. The chance of me screwing that up are fairly high, but that's what makes it fun to try. The great thing about writing it as a serial is that I have a lot of room to explore that. Having a fairly large reader base already gives me a little extra wiggle room as fans of my other stuff are willing to give me a chance (although I'm sure their patience won't last forever).
u/nolrai [+5] (2 days later)
This is some very harsh commentary, possibly too harsh to be useful to you. I don't want to make you feel bad. It will, but that's not my goal.
I read the first two chapters, and was bored to death.
It's not that it's slice of life, it's that it's cliché and unpleasant slice of life.
Like here is all the info the first chapter gives: The MC is a teenage girl. She is badly depressed. She thinks her parents don't love each other, and that that is normal for the modern day. This is in the ?future? but feels like the 90s? Her dad got laid off, but given a vrpod. He seems to think this will make money for the family. The mother seems to be the one that actually cares about money. The MC kind of hates them and uses home work to avoid them. She doesn't actually have homework to do, but does it anyway.
Now that last bit actually is pretty "Whoa", but also strains my suspension of disbelief. Why isn't she reading a book, or fmylife.com? Does she like actually care about school, I mean she does say that it keeps her parents off her back. So maybe it's a reasonable thing for her to do at that point.
But that's besides the real problem. The real problem is that she is boring. There's no conflict. The only character traits she seems to have are depressed and conflict adverse.
Being in her head is unpleasant, and uninteresting. Mostly it's just too long.
And then next chapter we learn she is unpopular in school. Surprise.
The good ideas here are buried under too much cliché and filler. I think that if cut down to a fifth or so the currant length, the scenes might work later in the book. Or cut down to a tenth or so, as introduction. You do manage to convey just how misriable she is. Her life is really viscerally boring.
But she doesn't have to be boring. She could be unique and interesting to the reader, while still being misriable.
Or you could skip this entire set up for now, and wait to show the boredom until the reader has connected with her later more interesting self, and the contrast will make the misery captivating, instead of off-putting.
Sorry about the harshness, I really think these could go places, and want you to keep writing.
u/mooderino [+1] The Good Student (2 days later)
If you were bored to death then clearly this isn't the story for you. Slice of life stories don't appeal to everyone, especially if the life in question isn't of interest to you. Finding out in the first couple of chapters is a good thing, I'd say. However, suggesting the story has potential if only I changed everything misses the point. The person who has to find Britta interesting at this point is me, otherwise I couldn't write it.
Writing online for free is different to trying to write a bestseller. I don't write to please an audience, I write to please myself. People who have similar tastes to mine will be drawn to it over time, the ones who hate it will stop reading (after leaving a long comment announcing their departure, for some reason) and find something else.
Which isn't to say I'm dismissive of criticism or think it's all perfect—it certainly isn't—but there's a difference between making it do what I want better, and changing it to something else entirely.
A girl who overhears boys making fun of her looks on a bus is a small, low key scene that might not appeal to people. Meh. Cliche. I can see that. That she then goes into a VR game where she could choose to have her character look as beautiful as she wants, but instead chooses the ugliest possible character because fuck everyone makes me like her. And that's the key to writing a long term story, me liking her. I want to see where she is a year from now. One chapter a day. Quite the challenge I'm setting myself.
Some of those chapters will be terrible, no doubt. Some will make readers rage quit (after the obligatory announcement, of course). But maybe I'll produce something worth reading. And maybe I won't.
u/nolrai [+4] (3 days later)
Honestly "So I guess you might ask yourself, "Why would the reader want to read this book?" Your synopsis tells me I would want to read this book if I was interested in seeing a "realistic" depiction of a VRMMORPG game. But the story itself tells me I should read it if I want to read the story about Britta the bitter 16 year old girl who sometimes plays a VRMMORPG." says what I would better. Look you don't have to change your story, and you don't have to change your synopsis, but if you care at all about finding people who will read your work, you need to change one or the other.
u/mooderino [+1] The Good Student (3 days later)
No, I don't think I need to change either. You seem to be assuming people aren't reading it or everyone will react the same way as you. It's doing fine. I know it has a slow pace and an awkward MC. As a writer I enjoy the challenge of both. I have other stories people can read if they don't like this one. Many people had issues with them when they started, they demanded (and I mean really demanded) I change this or that. I have no idea why people feel their opinions give them the right to instruct others in what to do.
Just to be clear, I understand your concerns about the story but I don't agree. Doesn't mean I'm right, but since I'm the writer, turns out only my opinion counts. Read the actual synopsis part of the OP. I think that sums up the story pretty well. The other stuff is me talking about my reasons for writing it. If someone feels cheated because I didn't get to that stuff quick enough for them, that's a pacing issue not a matter of having to redefine anything. It's very short chapters released daily over a very long time, not a novel. It will take time getting to places. If you don't like the format, don't read it.
Bear in mind, you're just reacting to a story you happened to stumbled across and offering your views. As the writer, I'm receiving hundreds of varying opinions on the things I write. A lot of them saying the opposite of each other. The negative ones who just can't let it go are quite common and follow a distinct pattern. 'Hey bro, just wanted to give you some feedback...' into slightly more passive aggressive 'If you want people to read this you have to...' and then into the full bore aggressive 'This could have been something really great but you dropped the ball, man, but, hey, it's your story, do what you want...'
What would have been helpful is if someone had spotted I'd put the wrong genre tags in the post (which i just edited). Instead of VRMMO it said Magic Academy which is my other new serial. Now that's a change I would have totally understood people demanding.
u/nolrai [+4] (3 days later)
If people are reading and enjoying it then go with that, and ignore me.
"If someone feels cheated because I didn't get to that stuff quick enough for them, that's a pacing issue not a matter of having to redefine anything." But pacing is exactly the problem I was complaining about?
But then again maybe I just flat out don't like your writing, and so my points are irrelevant.
u/mooderino [+1] The Good Student (3 days later)
You were complaining about a lot more than just my pacing. But even so, if I state up front it will be slow paced, and then you complain about pacing... it's a bit like complaining the local cheese shop doesn't sell ladders.
I do get that you didn't enjoy it, but that isn't enough for me to change it. Nor does it necessarily mean that if I did change it you would enjoy it more.
u/nolrai [+3] (3 days later)
I honestly didn't notice anything about slow pacing. Just a big list of things VRMMOG stories leave out, and then two chapters that aren't about VRMMOGs.
And the synopsis doesn't tell me which half you are interested in either.
I mean even after reading two chapters, I still assumed that the VR game was what the story was about. Because you posted it here and talked a lot about VR stories, and nothing about wanting to write a story about a girl with a horrible life.
Like I did not see my advice as telling you to change everything, but just to do an editing pass and think about the difference between what you need to write and what the reader needs to see.
But if the parts I was telling you to get rid of really are the core of the story...change your advertising for it please.
u/mooderino [+1] The Good Student (3 days later)
No. Just because the first two chapters aren't about VR doesn't mean it's false advertising. Your assumptions are wrong. Look at the top of this page and read the bit under synopsis. Your lack of understanding doesn't require me to change anything.
u/Rouninscholar [+2] (3 days later)
Since several people here have been giving you shit I wanna give my 2 cents.
Your stories are quite interesting to me. On the one hand I want to complain about it, but I am up to date as of not on how to avoid and bitter. Clearly I keep reading for a reason.
I dislike the characters. Just, all of them. I kinda like Jenny and Maurice. That is actually a point in favor in some ways, as it is hard to write characters that make people feel strongly about in any way. I wouldnt want to now these people, I wouldnt want to be these people. Maybe that is the point?
Your writing style is good, even if the "shorter chapters more frequently" thing annoys me, just means that I wnt read bitter again for a few weeks. Maybe Ill check tomorrow due to the cliffhanger. The world is interesting and I like how the main characters (looking at Colin and Co more here) succeed not by being the best, not by author fiat, not by clever plan. But by choosing low risk maneuvers and hoping for the best. Makes them seem much more real. Colin was smart enough to figure out the troll call. He wasn't smart enough to solve the previous fights or next fights. Make me think of Erfworld "we try things, sometimes they even work"
Now on to actual critique that might help you: The menu is quite small for wanting to do everything it does. Honestly I think it would make me feel better if it had an "advanced" option having it be that size but still listing individual spells and trying to fit all the stats doesnt make much sense from a game design perspective. Maybe this is meant to be a comment on how difficult game menus can be for newbs. who knows. "cannot log out mid fight bothers me"
It wouldnt be legal, health concerns and all.
There isnt any way to manually disconnect? The pain in the eye thing has been REALLY bothering me. Please have someone talk about it again or just tell me what is going on with that.
It worries me in the "we are going to get trapped in VR and now you dance for me" way that Sword art does.
what if it loses power?
TL;DR I hate your characters and enjoy your writing style and worlds. Keep it up. Or don't or whatever if that is what you want. But if it is still updating I'll probably still be reading it.
u/mooderino [+1] The Good Student (3 days later)
The menu is supposed to open up into other screens when you press on it but I didn't want to over-complicate things. Tbh I still haven't settled on a style for that part of it. Not sure how much detail to include.
As for the fewer words/more frequently concept, I haven't really go that right yet either. It should have a cliffhanger every time, but not in a way that's annoying. Really, I want to create something like Tomo-chan na onannoko or Mousou Telepathy (mangas). Short but daily that serve some purpose storywise that feels satisfying. Not sure how to do that in story form though.
- You can log out in combat, Honourable Subaru.
- The eye thing will be explained later. But the pace of the story means that could be months from now.
- No, although I do have an idea for a scene where people discuss 'what if' that scenario since they've all seen SAO.
- Get kicked out.
Generally speaking, I don't like OP MC types that are Mary Sue right up to the neck. It's a lot easier to make them popular, but too juvenile wish-fulfilment for my tastes. I perhaps go too much the other way.
u/Rouninscholar [+1] (3 days later)
kk. Then menu you showed just made me think that everything was going to be way over simplified. You can log out in combat, Honourable Subaru. This makes me laugh a little for a couple reasons, but for not I will just assume that she isnt looking in the right place to log out. it directly says she cant, but that could be poor menu work or something. The eye thing will be explained later Thank god. I cant imagine the lack of questions the MC had when that happened I wouldnt step into a pod like that until I had a good look at what was going to happen to me inside. and your chapters are fine, I just read fast and hate stopping in the middle of the story, there really isnt any way to keep me happy on that kind of thing.
and your characters feel like real characters. But colin kind feels like if you took gregory house and arthur dent, combined them, and kept all the worst qualities, and then took away their happiness. (worst qualities from a personal perspective, not in a writing or quality way)
Rereading she asked about a force exit, there we go.
u/mooderino [+1] The Good Student (3 days later)
I have read some litRPG with massive tables full of numbers and it doesn't really appeal to me. But then I know someone who writes down the attack bonuses and checks they're applied correctly during battle, so people do like that sort of thing, I guess.
u/Rouninscholar [+1] (3 days later)
lol, I wouldnt go that far. Although technically the gamer is a manwa that does that. but I feel like you both have very different focuses.